Just finished first LOF book and eagerly await number 2. For us: Math = 1 hour per day LoF only counts as "math" time when problems are being worked (maybe that would change at higher levels)--whether they are mathematical, or drawing or whatever, that counts, but the reading doesn't. That time gets subtracted from the daily total. Since where we are in fred is way behind MUS, each goes in order of itself, no attempt to integrate them.

Besides your worry of finding nothing wrong, I also had a worry, given the situation, that whatever testing was done, if it got detailed as to visual or auditory or etc. processing, something would be found amiss and much therapy in the area tested (VT, or whatever) would be suggested at great cost, both financial and energy-wise, but not really be what would significantly help turn the situation around. Anyway, I hope all comes out well for you and him!

Hi, I'm not sure if I can do this right, but I'm going to try to post link to the actual High Noon materials that worked for us If the link works, they were the ones in the upper left on the page. One help was how very much practice there was at each level--I got all the sets of the first CVC readers and CVCe readers, for example, so that gave 9 at each level with which to practice before the next level. And the look was sophisticated enough that he felt okay reading them to himself in waiting rooms etc., so that added extra familiarity and fluency. At the start, each of the chapter books (by suggestion of the reading specialist whom I consulted) was read 3 times out loud. But not always each book 3 times in a row--that is, we might go through several CVC books before redoing each of them, so fluency was being built without so much boredom, or just starting to memorize. Each time we began a new level it was hard. The reading specialist said I could read some of the books to him the first time to help transition into the new stage, but he never wanted me to do that. And he started the CVC chapter books the moment they arrived in the mail, rather than waiting to be where the Intervention program said to start them--and that seemed to be okay. I was impressed by the fact that the reading specialist (who worked in another state's school system) said this was the program that she had seen work best for the most number of children age 8 and up. I don't know if it would help your son, but the situations seem similar (mine also had some visual and hearing issues, and there was a question of whether something like VT would be the way to go). Their ages are similar, and so on. I'm sorry to hear about your ps. The same ps that is now helping is the one that I pulled my son out of originally--but since then they got a new superintendent and new principal, had other changes that might have helped. Things I'd repeatedly asked for as accommodations (for example due to allergies) before and hadn't been able to achieve were now not a problem. Possibly equally important is that coming in from the outside I think I had a little more power than when he was in attendance already--and had learned a little about what I could reasonably request, and how, and what not. There was also a test to see if it would seem helpful for a few weeks, before accepting services for the rest of the year. I think they bent over backwards to make it helpful in those test weeks :)

:lol: We love Fred too! Read the whole of Apples during the holidays and have gone ahead and ordered Butterflies. FAntabulous! another series to be hooked on. Watching the mail daily for B'flies to get here.

Another addition: For myself, I realize that at some point I may need to do more testing so as, for example, to get him able to have extra time on tests so he can figure out if it is "brown" or "drown" etc. But at this stage my main goal was to get him to where he can read well enough that extra time would even help. So my tendency has been, for now, to put the money into materials not into testing. What they do over at the school, he tells me, is not really different than at home, but it gives him someone else to do it with, and he gets to see others having to work through various difficulties, so I think that also helps. Possibly the most helpful thing they did was that the reading teacher told him in a very confident cheerful voice, "Don't worry, decoding problems are something we can fix." Another thing that helped me was to remember back to when I was at one point dealing with words in Cyrillic: I often encountered one, seemed to learn it, and then didn't recognize it when I met it again soon afterward. For a child with dyslexia or related such difficulties English is like trying to decipher Chinese or Greek would be to me now.

Mine had similar difficulties. He was in schools, not hs, at first, and one also used word families approach which was very bad for him. I cannot say what yours has, but the breakthrough for us came when a reading specialist alerted me to possible dyslexia and steered me to 1) the use of High Noon Books Intervention program from the very beginning onward (it is especially suited to high interest/low level readers and is very rigorously sequential step by step, which not all programs are, without being very "babyish" in appearance or subject matter as many are--I also had a couple of conversations with people at High Noon who were very helpful, such as telling me to help him with the reading as if it were a sport with many components (like dribbling, shooting, passing, etc.) that each would need to be practiced until they were easy and then all put together until fluent, and then more at higher levels of play, and 2) to read about dyslexia, which included Sally Shaywitz's book Overcoming Dyslexia, which gave me many more good ideas. I also read some others on the subject of reading problems. Then, testing done at our local ps (not detailed as to exactly what the problem is, but no charge to me beyond what I pay in taxes) got him some extra help there too, and equally important, that along with discussion with physician told me to push through all the "I can't" stuff and work with the reading for about 2 hours per day--half an hour daily on weekends. An extra hour many days at the school... I had the feeling that you too more want something that may work, rather than lots of testing at this point--but I'm not sure of this. Another thing I wanted to add was that as we started into what became the turn around I used pure High Noon materials so as not to be confusing--but a variety in those--both the Intervention and the sound out chapter books that went with it...then as things started to gel, I used anything I could that seemed to work, partly to keep away boredom and frustration. And I'm still to some degree at that stage--but there is a big difference between being there when able to read Magic Tree House level and not being able to get long vowel CVCe words. Mine still has difficulties between, say, brown and drown or pit and bit--but can read enough over all to be able to go back and correct his error from the context increasingly often. So it is definitely slower for him--but he is also reading now--and just about half a year ago he was where you are describing your son to be now. Actually, with High Noon, etc., he was already quite far along before the testing ever got done. There have been several leaps, and plateaus. The result is that he is now just slightly behind grade level. He still has trouble with word lists, but in context, his reading is getting quite fluent. And, because he can now do it and read some interesting things, he now loves it!

At the stage you are at (we weren't yet homeschooling) my son's teachers/schools were saying don't worry, it will come with time. One school was public, one private and the latter tended to do reading late anyway--while the latter took the pressure off, and for at least some other children the late approach seemed to be fine, the reality is that for my son the wait and see approach was wrong. And from what I have seen tended to be wrong for children who had any difficulties in this area. In retrospect, I wish I had looked into what was going on sooner and not waited. What finally started to work for us, after a reading specialist raised the dyslexia possibility, was a thing called High Noon Intervention started from the beginning with review (or more likely really learning in the first place) of letters and sounds (but I think it may not be intended for under age 7?), assuming nothing prior had been learned at all. He finally started making progress. There is also a program called Read Write Type from Talkingfingers.com which links phonetic sounds to the letters. It was highly recommended, and I think it also helped. But I am not sure if he could have done that without the High Noon first. High Noon also sells a phonics program --and various Orton-Gillingham materials--for younger children, but my son detested it. I suggest either some testing and evaluation of child, or reading yourself to try to figure out what is going on, and then to try to get a suitable program depending on what the difficulty seems to be. Before being steered to "dyslexia" I was trying all sorts of things that were not helping and tended to create more distress and sense of failure. Thankfully, we did go from "I can't" "I won't ever be able to" to where reading is now a favorite thing. Good luck.

We started "late" and not knowing how to handle a similar situation, I asked an advisor person at Peacehill Press who said go: WWE1, WWE2, WWE3, and then skip WWE4 entirely and go to WWS. That is, they said do some catch up by skipping the end level of WWE, not the start or middle of it, and also that some catch up could be done by moving more quickly through the first 3 levels than what is suggested for a younger child--but that as the start is incremental, not to try to skip material entirely.

I strongly second this. My son has been playing since age 5. Amazingly, not one piece has gone on a permanent walk-about--and I think this helped teach keeping things together: As in, all captured pieces go in the open box top, and then there is clean up: OK, let's see, are there 8 white pawns, 8 white other pieces, 8 black pawns, 8 black other pieces (or if child can count to 16, that would work) etc. at the end of each game... None has vanished even when there have been younger kids, and not even when the game has gone to DMV waiting room and attracted the attention of strangers. Once there was an hour hunt in ivy for a piece, but it was found (and we did learn that outside on very windy day is not a good idea). Whether right now, or when you do get a real set, see if you can find "Wonder Chess"--which is fairly expensive for a plastic pieces chess set, but I highly recommend it for learning purposes. (And it has won awards, so I am not the only one to think so.) We didn't use prizes in the pieces or stickers, because play was its own reward, but did use a lot of the methods it gave to teach the game and game strategy. He also plays chess against the computer, but that was secondary, not primary. It is the game that came with our computer, and has variations from standard; it was a good thing that he learned real chess first. It seems easier to go from the real thing in the normal way to screen and variations than vice versa so far as I can tell. Though I guess other posting feel otherwise.

I find that we use more than one thing because we need variety (both of us do) both so as not to get sick of one thing and because they cover different aspects. A big surprise just recently was putting together Learn to Write the Novel Way--not the whole book, but some of the ideas in it--with WWE. All of a sudden a sentence that had been given in narration as "When they woke up the next morning it was crisp, and there were lots of birds." became (by asking if there were a better word than "lots") "...and pigeons filled the sky, the bushes, and the whole garden."

Oliver Twist or another by Dickens?

This is the first time Singapore Math has actually seemed intriguing. What is "IP" vs. "CWP"? If one wanted to get just one, say workbook, or ?, to see what this is all about, what would it be? (my child is finishing MUS Gamma)

Another bump. I visited the bravewriter website and started to implement a few of the ideas from there, and thought they would be helpful in terms of limbering up the writing process, as it were. It did seem to unblock my then writing blocked child. brave writer also has dictation and so on. I am planning to get Writer's Jungle soon, I hope. I thought IEW would help to give a directed here-is-one-way to do this, starting from note taking on up. IEW is on its way. I decided we needed more than just one program, both for variety, and because they cover different things, or in different ways. And while pricey, both seem like they will stay useful for many years. We also use WWE and plan to use WWS when it is time. Maybe in a year or 2 or 3, after a chance to compare more, I'll have more to contribute!

Wow! to Lori D's post. I definitely agree with getting him checked for problems like LD. Also, how much time are you spending? For my also very visual DS, MUS seemed a very good fit all in all, especially on the understanding side. But not always perfect. DS watches the videos himself. And we use the manipulatives, but not always. Sometimes I explain a different way that I do it, or set up other problems on graph paper. And we are supplementing also with other things: Kumon for not very expensive extra practice, Spectrum ditto, IXL (on line for speed, but more pricey), and Life of Fred came and it is fun and good for the understanding side. I've also looked at Khan Academy for other hints on how to explain things. TT would give someone else to give explanations--you could try sample lessons and see if that is a better fit. Cannot speak to CLE.

He's never been a coloring book or cut and paste what others have worked out sort, so it sounds like Pockets is not a fit. Thanks for the feedback. Creek Edge Press sounds really interesting though. I've never heard of that before. Have you tried it out yet, and if so how is it?

Here is a dilemma that keeps coming up, and I cannot seem to come up with the right balance. My question is how much do I get of a particular program, and when? Oftentimes there will be money to save by purchasing a set of things at once, compared to buying each as it is needed. But then what if it turns out not to be the right thing? Or, what if it seems to be right at first, but then things change. Seems like if I choose to get a program by the each (packet, book, etc.) then I need the whole lot and could have done better buying it all from the start. But if I go for the whole shebang at the outset, then it doesn't work out. Well, not always. I got the whole Magic Treehouse set and that worked out well, but other things, like Writing Strands, where I went for a package to start turned out to be not right for us. We are once again coming to the stage of needing new materials and I once again face this dilemma, particularly with history and writing materials at this time. Is this another Murphy's law? Or is there some way to better predict or plan? Or what? Any words of experience?

We are almost done with SOTW. Would either A Child's History of the World (by the former Calvert headmaster), or Van Loon's Story of Mankind, or both, add to what SOTW covers or would they be redundant? In general, where would you go after finishing SOTW through grammar level, but not yet being at logic stage? History is much enjoyed and I want to keep it so. Has anyone used History Pockets? What are they like? How about Portfolio of History materials? History Odyssey? How does H. Odyssey compare to Portfolio? Do these tend to be religious or secular? Thank you!

My delayed reader gets to read these out loud to me. It is wonderful. They are great for that purpose, IMO!

Our favorite is Cricket. I think if you get any published by Carus (includes Muse) you can switch from one to another each month till you decide on a favorite.

I think some are truly "not ready yet"--that is hard for an outsider to judge. But if he's losing confidence and motivation, then that seems like something more is needed, not a just wait and see approach. My personal opinion, fwiw. And based on personal hard experience, we are just a bit past your stage, but where there is now a boy who reads! Mine was at 2 different schools, and didn't learn at either. HS was better, not worse. And mine was having trouble, not just "late". Iit was a struggle--and expensive to find a good fit of materials, with many false starts that seemed promising--maybe they helped a little--at first, but did not really work. For mine the big help was High Noon books, intervention and chapter books. Finally something started to click and my son just started taking off. (He just came in to read to me some things about the Titanic from a fact tracker, that he found exciting and fascinating.) You might be able to get some additional help from PS, without having to enroll there full time--if son is dyslexic or otherwise eligible for an IEP, for example.. We have done that. And that too has helped. We put in a lot of time to reading too--like two-three hours per day on school days, and half an hour on non school days--that makes a big difference. When it seems too hard, it is done less, so there is less practice, etc. and it becomes a downward spiral. If you can break that downward spiral and make it go upward it will help a lot. Good luck! And yes, some "late" readers do become excellent readers. My "late" reader is not yet excellent, but is getting there, and what is better, reading went from being a disliked school subject to his favorite, and a thing he likes also just for fun sometimes.

Trying to decide between these two as a place to start with trying IEW. A thread on ATFaF made it sound wonderful, and I was about to get it--but my son likes history. What do you think? Besides peacocks, and bird soup, what is in ATFaF?

We have that and love it. Also sometimes do mental math in car.

Waldorf itself tries to get its students "caught up" to other more typical language arts programs by the end of 3rd grade. Or at least ours had that goal. The methods weren't working for us, however. Art and theater were wonderful, and it is too bad those had to be given up. DS was getting "behind" even by Waldorf's much slower and relaxed schedule. Quite aside from school, parental, or societal expectations, there are frustrations that come for children if they are "behind" and feeling that "baby level" work is itself too hard, and that they cannot do things at their own interest level, let alone at the level their friends are at. And if no intervention is given it can easily become a downward spiral. That happened with his reading. With writing, no, you are right, we are not terribly behind, but this is clearly the time to start an intervention so that he does not become so.

Wow! Thank you!

I would suggest looking at Modern Curriculum Press phonics and phonics practice books...but, if that is still too "babyish", or if a more sequential program is needed, then consider what we used at age 9: http://www.highnoonbooks.com--using their Intervention Program from the beginning, plus their Sound Out Chapter Books, starting with CVC words book "The Red Cap" (featuring a vet, lab dog, and other CVC words. The Sound Out Chapter books work with basic phonics plus high-frequency words, but longer and much more sophisticated looking than BOB or even MCP. They are also more advanced in subject matter. eg "Up the Hill", still with CVC pattern words, features characters who can already drive. My 8.5 year liked the more grown-up themes, characters, and look of the books. I don't think they are meant for 6.5 year olds, but when we found them, it seemed to me that it was the way many children might learn to read, not just struggling older readers. From High Noon, we then progressed (before even completing High Noon--suddenly it started to "click") to The Buddy Files and then Magic Tree House series. I'd be interested in knowing what does work when you get to that point.