I think teaching a child that his feelings are sinful also can produce shame. Shame that he is even feeling a certain way, because the parent says (and God says) that feeling that way is wrong. In this example from the book, taken from this link-http://www.raisinggodlytomatoes.com/ch12.php the author belittles the child for just acting like a child. This is similar to the shaming of denying a child any feelings that are "'negative" or "ungodly." "....However, if the same child draws an intentionally goofy picture, or stands on his head, or does some other conspicuously senseless thing, and cries, "LOOK AT ME!" or "LOOK AT WHAT I CAN DO!", my Mommy Radar goes off and I know I'm witnessing an egotistical episode of showing off. In that case I say seriously, "Okay, that's enough, you look ridiculous doing that. Go do something a mature child would do."

Thanks! I added links.

Quote from website-here is the link--http://www.raisinggodlytomatoes.com/ch10.php "The Screamer" Here's a helpful exchange between myself and several other moms regarding their screaming children: Tami: My daughter, almost three, has been a screamer since birth. Although things are improving, she still does it far too often; and she is so LOUD! She will cry over things that are very small and trivial. It's so bad that she's nick-named "The Screamer" amongst our relatives. Here's an example: (She comes to me and asks if she can sit on my lap when I am on the computer�) Me: �No sweetie". (She begins to wail loudly.) Me: �Stop fussing right now�. (She cries.) Me: (I spank her, one swat) �Stop right now". (She cries louder.) Me: (I spank again, and then give her a few seconds to compose herself.) (She makes no effort to stop.) Me: "Stop crying right now". (She continues to scream.) Me: "Look at me. Stop crying � now�" This goes on, with variations, for what seems like forever. She cries; I spank and instruct; she cries; repeat, repeat, repeat. Finally she stops, smiles for me, and obeys my instructions for her to �wait�. But it doesn�t end there. A few minutes later she begins howling again and the entire scene repeats itself all over. It never seems to really end until she either gets what she wants or until her mind wanders off onto some other subject. That is just one instance of what repeats itself throughout the day, all day, every day. Any ideas? Elizabeth: She's got quite a habit going there, doesn�t she? Not only is it a habit, but I think she must be getting some satisfaction out of all the attention and drama. Clearly, what you are doing isn't working. I think you need to try a different approach to break this habitual cycle. As soon as she erupts, say nothing, but administer one firm swat to the bottom, and stand her in the corner. Choose a corner where you can see her, but be sure she stays facing the wall so she can not see any of your inadvertent reactions to her annoying crying. Do not audible react to her either. It is very important that she does not feel she has an audience. Don't order her to stop crying yet. Simply let her know that if she wants to cry, she must stand in the corner by herself - �Where I don't have to listen to you.� Spank if she leaves the corner, but otherwise pay no attention to her. She'll probably continue to exercise her lungs for a while, but eventually she'll get tired and stop. Soon she'll ask to leave the corner. Tell her, �No.� Don't say anything else. She'll probably start crying again, but ignore her. Only step in if she sits down or tries to leave the corner. Don't say anything, just correct her and return her to the corner. At that point tell her, "You wanted to cry, so stand here and cry. Don't ask when you can leave. I'll tell you when you can leave." Trust me, she will know why she is there, so don't explain any more than that. The more you talk, the more excuses you'll provide for her to continue arguing with you via her whining, sniffing, and crying. Eventually, she will be standing quietly. Let her stand for a while longer. This entire process may occupy a half hour or so at first. Even if she gets the idea quickly and cooperates, wait until she is thoroughly bored before releasing her. Don't talk to her or interact with her at all except to correct as needed. When you are certain she has the right attitude (not crying, and resigned to spending the rest of her life in the corner), then tell her to come to you. Have her look at you and ask her if she is finished crying. She'll probably say, �Yes.� Respond to her with, "Good, now go play and don't let me hear that crying any more." Important: Repeat this the next time she starts up again and every time thereafter. The idea here is to surprise her with a different approach that gives you several advantages: (1) It changes the focus from something you can't easily control (her crying) to something you can easily control (standing in the corner). (2) It removes all the pleasure she gets from the crying. (That's why it is important not to visibly or audibly respond to her.) (3) Standing in the corner is something that will make her uncomfortable and motivate her to give up her beloved screaming habit.

Another example for JennSnow- taken from this link-http://www.raisinggodlytomatoes.com/ch09.php "Getting Tough on Emotionalism Lisa: Today as my boys were playing Playmobil, I joined in. I picked up a Playmobil man from the floor and took it to my four-year-old across the room. He immediately started to cry. I had no idea why. He said he "was using that guy". I replied, no you weren't; it was lying on the floor. Then he crossed his arms on his chest and in an angry voice said, "Now I have zero guys, so I can't play!" I told him to stop, that it was nothing to cry over. If he had simply asked for the man instead of getting angry, I would have given it to him. But he kept on crying. I spanked him, only to hear him whisper to himself, "I am very, very, very angry!" I talked to him, yet he persisted in his pouting and anger. What did I do wrong? I am finding myself getting angry and frustrated, because this is becoming a habitual reaction. HELP! Elizabeth: Had it been me, I think that when I realized that reasoning was futile, I would have quit the reasoning, ordered him to knock it off, and then commenced to discipline and outlast as needed to change his self-centered attitude. He could go back to playing once he was thankful that he had the toy at all, and was happy to share it."

from this link-- http://www.raisinggodlytomatoes.com/ch10.php "Be honest in your assessment of your child to discern whether he is crying to manipulate or not. If he is, you can only stop it by being prompt, tough, and relentless. Begin by stating there will be no more unprovoked crying, no more crying when Mom says "no", and no more crying for minor injuries. Then prepare to be a mean mother. Stand him in the corner, or even spank, IMMEDIATELY, with the first sniffle. Whatever you do, you must discipline EVERY TIME without exception. If he tones down the crying, but switches to pouting and sniffing instead, tell him that counts too. Only silence and a pleasant face will do. Be tough, and maintain as zero-tolerance approach to this type of manipulation. 7. Defiant crying and screaming: The most disagreeable type of crying is the kind that exhibits bold, angry, defiance and rage. This type of crying should never be allowed to continue. Once he is older, he�d be swearing instead of crying. Two or three "I mean business" swats on the posterior are in order for this type of defiance. The spanking itself may not immediately stop the screaming, but it will communicate your intolerance of this kind of disrespect. Corner time and Outlasting, will likely be needed as well, especially if you did not administer the initial spanking soon enough. Let him go only when he is again calm, quiet, and has control of himself. Be sure he is willing to obey you unconditionally with a pleasant attitude. Move to close Tomato Staking according to need after that. You should never allow this type of screaming."

In the recent Dugger thread, some of the conversations derailed into discussions about the godly tomatoes book. I am reading some of the sections of the book (I don't agree with the book-I am reading to refute it) and wondered if someone could help me understand the results (to the child) of this kind of parenting. I am not just referring to spanking but to sections of the book that teach parents to not allow their kids to display emotions. Like this quote- “The Outside Reflects the Inside One cherished, but highly erroneous belief is that a parent should not correct a child for displaying a wrong emotion, because the child will "suppress" the emotion rather than change it. Experience convinces me otherwise. Require young children to display the right emotions outwardly and their hearts will change, producing the right attitudes and emotions inwardly as well. Of course you can't simply order your children to "be happy". If the child is small, it works much better to tell him to "smile" or "straighten up your face." If the child is very young, I'll cheerfully say, "Let's see a smile now", or "Where is your smile?" The child may initially resist, but when he finally obeys, the resulting smile will often break into a radiant grin, accompanied by sincere laughter and other expressions of genuine joy. It is hard for a small child to hide his true feelings. It is equally difficult for him to display an emotion that he does not really feel. Get him to smile on the outside and invariably he will smile on the inside.†So according to her, if you convince your child (through spanks, fear, corner time, lecturing) that displaying the emotion of sadness is wrong, then their hearts will change. I maintain that instead, the child will just stuff their sadness and become (I think) kind of numb. They will still FEEL sad, but they will have to work hard at not showing it through tears or facial expressions or tone or words. Thus they become sneaky and deceitful, because the parent has intimidated them into hiding how they really feel. Doesn't this teach kids to be victims? Learned helplessness, too? What else is it teaching kids? What kind of struggles will a child raised this way have as a teen or adult?

This is an interesting review of the tomatoes book-- https://homeschoolersanonymous.org/2014/09/09/review-of-infant-spankingchild-abuse-manual-raising-godly-tomatoes-by-l-elizabeth-krueger/

I am confused. You said that you HAD post partum depression, but in your next paragraph you said that you don't think people get depression or ADHD? Are you really saying that you don;'t think there is such a thing as depression or ADHD or am I misunderstanding what you are saying? When I was on the board, I know that Elizabeth said that she does not believe in anyone getting counseling ever, and that she does not believe in ADHD or dyslexia or any learning disabilities at all.

How do they even conclude that it is "sinful" to fidget or rock in a chair?? What Bible verse is that supposedly based on??

I bet the teens/adults who were raised the "tomatoes" way have some real struggles and problems. I am sure it does some real damage to never be allowed to have/show any "negative" emotions such as sadness or anger or frustration...and not allowed to spend time with peers unless supervised by a parent....and belittled like that example of the child who was fidgeting. :(

I think it was both-the child rearing tactics AND the submission threads that were awful. I think it would be fine to share examples (without names of course) Women were in abusive marriages and posted there and were told to "just try harder" and "give him more TEA" and "work harder to please him."

I am not saying that the tomato staking (keeping your kids close) is bad in any way. But go back and read the quotes I posted. Spanking a child for wiggling and having a two hour outlasting session with a toddler, where you are periodically spanking over the course of two hours? Spanking a child or putting her in the corner for not being perfectly happy (ie , for being sad or upset that she is unable to draw a picture)??? What does that kind of parenting do a a child long term? And yes, she does speak about getting together with other families, but they must be "like minded" and the children (and teens) must be supervised. The kids/ teens are not allowed to have friends that they choose and are not allowed to get together with other teens without both families being present.

The godly tomatoes book/author states that children do not need friends outside the family. She discourages participation in Sunday School, youth groups, AWANA, or any group that is "peer oriented." She is against children playing sports. So I would not be so quick to assume that the Dugger kids are allowed to have friends. Even if the Duggars get together with another (like minded) family, the children are likely supervised.

Fidgeting quote--taken from this link-http://www.raisinggodlytomatoes.com/ch14.php Self-Control Philana: I'm trying to homeschool a child who fidgets � incessantly. He�s not an unusually hyper-active child in general, he just doesn�t seem to be using any self-control in during school time. He is supposed to be writing, and I notice he is messing with his pencil sharpener. I tell him to put it down. He does, and then two minutes later, he is tapping the pencil on his forehead or gently poking it into his ear. I tell him to stop. In a few minutes he is pushing against the computer desk door, a no-no. I say again to stop. Meanwhile he is perpetually wiggling in his chair, often falling onto the floor. Soon, he's messing with the pencil sharpener again. Should I be endlessly reminding him all day to stop? Should I swat? What? Elizabeth: First, you must seat this child right next to you while you are schooling, not across the table. Lay your paddle on the table between you and he as a visual aid. Begin like this: Mom: Do you see this paddle? Child: Yes. Mom: I'm tired of reminding you not to touch, fidget, wiggle, or to rock in your chair. From now on, I'm going to use the paddle to help you remember. Do you understand me? Child: Yes Mom. Mom: What are some of the things I'm always telling you not to do? Child: Playing with my eraser? Mom: Yes. What else? Child: Getting off my chair? Mom: Yes. What else? Child: Scribbling instead of doing my math? Mom: Yes, and I'm sure you can think of a lot of other things, so I'm not going to remind you. I'm just going to use the paddle. Do you understand me? Child: Yes. (Two minutes later child begins rocking in his chair.) Mom: Get up and put your hands on the table. (SWAT!) Now sit back down and go back to your work. (Three minutes later child begins to poke his pencil through his buttonhole.) Mom: Get up and put your hands on the table. (SWAT!) Sit down and start working. (Five minutes later child begins tapping the table leg with his foot.) Mom: Get up and put your hands on the table. (SWAT! SWAT!) Sit down and work. As soon as he realizes that he controls whether or not he gets a swat, he will start improving. If he laughs, or exhibits a bad attitude, apply an "I Mean Business" spanking. Remember, this will not work if you are not being very consistent, so you MUST train yourself to notice every little thing. Decide what degree of fidgeting is acceptable, taking into consideration the personality of your child, then correct for everything that is excessive. He is probably not even aware of his excessive movements and he needs you to bring them to his attention, and insist he control them. And being aroused, He rebuked the wind and said to the sea, "Hush, be still." And the wind died down and it became perfectly calm. - Mark 4:39 The child who could not draw--from this link-http://www.raisinggodlytomatoes.com/ch06.php "Let Attitude Guide You Vernita: What do I do when my child stands there with arms folded and a pouty look, not directed at me, but at a brother who won't share a toy? His attitude is abominable. It�s not just in sharing situations, but in other situations as well. Just now he was drawing with a pen on a big piece of paper. Making a mistake, he crumpled up the paper and in a VERY pouty way mumbled, "I can't make a picture." I sent him to the corner. This goes on all day, with him being pouty or grumpy over various trifles. I am Tomato Staking him and making sure I spend lots of time playing with him, and hugging him and loving him. So why is he like this and what do I do? Is it time for more drastic measures, such as spanking? Elizabeth: Since he does this all day, it could very well be little more than a bad habit. At this point I'd treat his depressed "looks" like any other misbehavior. Get his attention and say, "Straighten your face up." Educate him on the attitude and countenance he should have toward anyone. Then tell him what to do next: "Now smile, and share that toy nicely with your brother." Be sure he obeys."

Here is a quote where the tomatoes author suggests spanking for sniffing. "Be honest in your assessment of your child to discern whether he is crying to manipulate or not. If he is, you can only stop it by being prompt, tough, and relentless. Begin by stating there will be no more unprovoked crying, no more crying when Mom says "no", and no more crying for minor injuries. Then prepare to be a mean mother. Stand him in the corner, or even spank, IMMEDIATELY, with the first sniffle. Whatever you do, you must discipline EVERY TIME without exception. If he tones down the crying, but switches to pouting and sniffing instead, tell him that counts too. Only silence and a pleasant face will do. Be tough, and maintain as zero-tolerance approach to this type of manipulation.†*Bolded font added by me

On her website, she suggests spanking a child with a paddle for fidgeting. She also recommends correcting a kid who is sad and frustrated that he cannot draw a picture well. When a mom asks for advice about a child who is upset that he was hit on the head by a sibling with a toy block, she says that "it is never all right to be mad when offended." She describes a scene where she and her husband spent two hours spanking their toddler who would not come to them. So spanking is a huge part of her method, and she does teach that children are not allowed to be sad or mad about anything, ever.

That is just like Raising Godly Tomatoes-the kids are not allowed to be grumpy or sad or anything but happy and sweet or they get punished (spanked) or put in the corner until they are "sweet." Ugh. I recently came across a book review written by a woman who grew up with that tomatoes lady and her family..so tragic. On another note, I find it interesting that the ATI camp is in Michigan which is also where the author of Raising Godly Tomatoes lives.

From Love and Logic- "I'll be happy to do X for you when I am feeling respected." or I'll do all of the things I do for you around here when I'm feeling respected." x could be buying their favorite foods, driving them anywhere, laundry, making them dinner, or anything you would like to not do.

Agreed. Many 18 year olds are still living at home between graduation and moving to the dorms for college.

I would really, really love to have a copy of these, if you are willing to share. Thank you!!!

If he is not self motivated now, why would he suddenly become self motivated in college? It honestly does not sound like he would do well in a 4 year college at all. I would outsource all his school work and not remind or nag him at all. He needs to sink or swim on his own-he won't have you motivating him or reminding him in college. ETA-I am a Love and Logic kinda mom.

If you have a child over 12 or so and don't allow any screen time or internet, how will you teach your child to self regulate and know how to use technology wisely by the time he or she leaves your house? This is not meant to be snarky-=I am really just curious.

Jenn needs to suddenly get very busy and not have any time for Anna. And change her settings on FB so Anna does not see Jenn's updates.

You can get pepper spray anywhere-Amazon has it and probably Walmart, too. I am not sure what the difference is between mace and pepper spray. You can get pepper spray that goes on your keychain.

OP, do you have an update?