Candid
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Posts posted by Candid
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Mostly the latter, but with the former playing the role to lead the way.
I'm glad to hear that it has been toned down...hopefully, WAY down. I was Reformed when we ordered the classic, back then it was just after the "testing" period and being opened up to everyone. There was a lot of talk about the author, people that had spoken with the author, I think even one that had been one of the testers...so I remember hearing a bit about the author and her beliefs. And yes, we all can mellow or change. I'm not certain how much theirs have or haven't.
Ah, this makes more sense to me. But I'm not sure that what you heard was completely accurate. Often it is very easy for folks to hear what they themselves believe and then when repeating it to others make it sound like that whoever they are talking about is much more like the speaker than is really the case. Or the reverse to hear much more negative things than what is actually said.
I know in my past I've been aware of situations where someone would hear a person speak on a subject and then when telling others what had been said, modify that to suit what they wanted to hear. And it can even go both ways where someone who wants to hear negative will hear even greater negative.
Further, in regards to what you remember, lots of studies show this process is heavily involved in memory. Memory is extremely malleable. This doesn't mean anyone is doing it intentionally, but it does happen.
Look at the change in your own beliefs from that time. You don't want us to believe someone who knew you then over what you DO now?
So, I think it is much more wise to look at the full picture in these cases and not rely on these intermediary memories and statements.
While I understand your concerns about the Hinduism comments posted above, the fact is that most evangelical and fundamentalist Christians have those same beliefs, otherwise why evangelize at all? So in those remarks there is not some particular theology.
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To the person that said that they could easily change questions for their students, are they saying that they can change the content within the files? Or do they have to retype everything into another file? How much is dedicated to the "Christian foundings" of the US? Basically, I don't want a whitewashed Protestant history and that is what concerns me. I know I will have to toss out most of the "plays" because they are to direct students a certain direction (Mergath made reference to one as well, so apparently they are still there). I'm wondering how much has to be changed or cut.
That was me, no I'm afraid you'd have to do it yourself.
However, having led R level lit discussions I can tell you I do extensive editing to do so in a way that makes sure I get in everything. Generally I highlight up a storm so I can quickly see what I need to say and what I am looking to hear back. But I also write notes. Now, I have a print version, so what I did was to scan in the printed pages and then use a PDF editor on my tablet to do most of this marking up. Then I could either print the pages back out or use my tablet when I was with students.
So many things wouldn't have to be modified at least in my system, so much as not highlighted if I didn't want to cover them. I assume everybody is doing some of this work because Tapestry is pretty clear that it is a buffet. Part of picking and choosing which parts you are going to do is editing out or changing the discussion. So is that more work? Probably not if you are realistic about what you are and aren't going to do no matter what to use the curriculum.
I'll even say that when I just work one on one with my own kids I won't premark stuff but that doesn't mean I still don't edit as I go, but there are occasional award pauses that I wouldn't have when teaching with others.
The only thing that would need to be done is modify the student activity pages something I rarely do.
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I'd suggest that both you and he read The Teenage Liberation Handbook. It is the book for teen's unschooling and you will be pleasantly pleased by the high bar the author sets for what education is, but all the work and drive is the student's.
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Sure. I'm confident that there are whole schools who use nothing but.
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Wow, there is a lot of good information in this thread. I appreciate being able to read different views of curriculum. The only reason I am on these forums is to glean info from others who have tried things and read their opinions so even if yours and mine do not match, arent they still valuable?
That being said, I prefer a secular curriculum. We are Christian, but as Jehovah's Witnesses many of our bible beliefs do not match that of many other christian doctrines. I'm anxious to see if this could be used by us easily. This is our first year as homeschoolers. I am teaching a fifth grader and 2nd grader and we just started SOTW volume 1. Im not sure if I should get YR1 Unit 2 so I can compare it to what we are doing coming up, or if I should go ahead and try Yr2 Unit 1?
I hadn't even heard of TOG before since we are so new to this whole thing but it seems to be very well received so I want to look into it. Thank you for the all the info from both sides.
Personally if you already have materials ready to go for Y1U2, I'd get something further out. To really save money I'd purchase for next year or anything you don't have in hand for this year.
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She didn't say that they added up to every other page being FILLED with it. She stated that just about every other page had something on it. Whether it was one line or half a page...it was on that page. It doesn't matter how much it equals up to when it's separated and combined onto blank pages; it's about how it's scattered throughout the material and not just occasionally.
I suspect you are right. Thanks to mommymilkies, I realized these remarks were part of why I couldn't understand what she was saying:
Mergath, on 19 Oct 2013 - 1:22 PM, said:
Defensive, much?
Mergath, on 19 Oct 2013 - 8:13 PM, said:
:001_rolleyes: I take it you're involved with sales for ToG?
And much like the "scattered" references you refer to they made it impossible for me to focus; it was just too much of a kerfuffle for me.
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Okay, checked the TOG site...they still have the Catholic/Orthodox section (used to be just Catholic). There's a whopping eleven (unhelpful) posts from 2011.
This doesn't mean much, for whatever reason TOG has the slowest forums on earth.
There might be a RC/Orthodox Yahoo! group.
However, I've said on many threads in the past that I don't think TOG is particularly reformed, mostly just generic Protestant even their church history choices are not reformed. I've asked on threads when people claim it is reformed to provide me with proof, but thus far no one has provided that.
Despite what you read above, the stuff on Hinduism is generic Protestant. Sonlight has similar stuff as do other Protestant curriculum.
If you are Catholic or RC, you'll want to switch out bios and church histories. However, the two books I linked above, I'd leave in. The Civil War book's only "hero" is the RC European theology on slavery (Southern RC wrote the same stuff about slavery that other Southern denominations did). So that would definitely be a keeper for a RC/Orthodox minded family. BUT don't expect anyone but your oldest children to be reading that.
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Well, I am not complaining about either the quantity or nature of the Christian content in TOG (because it was 100% expected), but I can tell you why I am bothering to look at it. I have looked at and drooled over TOG many times because there is nothing secular out there like it. Nothing. I have heard of every program on the list you linked, but there is just flat out nothing as thorough and well done as TOG (or even Sonlight for that matter). I would pay a ridiculous amount of money for a secular version of something formatted like TOG. As it is, I have to decide what is easier, secularizing a Christian curriculum or (year after year after year) starting from scratch to make my own.
I think the free unit offer is a good way for you to do that. I suspect that usability will vary from person to person and maybe from year plan to year plan.
And personally, while I'd be surprised to hear a secular person wanted to study church history I find both the books used in the 3rd year to be amazing books that add a ton of insight not just to church history but the time about which they are written.
Check them out to see what i mean:
It's what I like about Tapestry, they don't pick easy books but they do pick books that are rich in detail and interest.
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Someone help me out, please. Where do I start reading? I keep opening it up and just staring at the main page, overwhelmed by all the links I *could* click.
I assume this means you've received your unit?
For me the books are really important, so begin by looking at what books will be used for one of your levels only. Just get them in your head so to speak, don't spend more than 10 minutes doing that.
Then pick one week, I'd do the first week and read it pretty much straight through. Get a feel for what all the different sections are. Then to begin to make it yours, read another week, but this time only read what you would normally read. So you won't look at the R level materials if you don't have R level children, but you will read the yellow World Book pages made to introduce the teacher to the topic for the week.
Then begin to think about how you would use this with your children.
This will vary depending on you and yours. With younger children you may give them daily assignments, with older children you may let them look up their own weekly assignments and only intersect on the discussions at the end of the week.
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Back to the topic. I requested a free unit the beginning of last week. Should I keep waiting ir request it again?
You could email them to ask if it went through. It doesn't hurt to submit it again though.
I agree, based on other responses on this thread, they are a bit overwhelmed by responses.
I will say for anyone who has not heard from them and it has been over a week, I'd definitely contact them before the end of October.
While usually Tapestry is pretty good about quick customer service, I've seen them and other companies get totally over whelmed by response to some offering.
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Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetuer adipiscing elit, sed diam nonummy nibh euismod tincidunt ut laoreet dolore magna aliquam erat volutpat. Ut wisi enim ad minim veniam, quis nostrud exerci tation ullamcorper suscipit lobortis nisl ut aliquip ex ea commodo consequat. Duis autem vel eum iriure dolor in hendrerit in vulputate velit esse molestie consequat, vel illum dolore eu feugiat nulla facilisis at vero eros et accumsan et iusto odio dignissim qui blandit praesent luptatum zzril delenit augue duis dolore te feugait nulla facilisi. Nam liber tempor cum soluta nobis eleifend option congue nihil imperdiet doming id quod mazim placerat facer possim assum. Typi non habent claritatem insitam; est usus legentis in iis qui facit eorum claritatem. Investigationes demonstraverunt lectores legere me lius quod ii legunt saepius. Claritas est etiam processus dynamicus, qui sequitur mutationem consuetudium lectorum. Mirum est notare quam littera gothica, quam nunc putamus parum claram, anteposuerit litterarum formas humanitatis per seacula quarta decima et quinta decima. Eodem modo typi, qui nunc nobis videntur parum clari, fiant sollemnes in futurum.
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ullamcorper suscipit lobortis nisl ut aliquip ex ea commodo consequat. Duis autem vel eum iriure dolor in hendrerit in vulputate velit esse molestie consequat, vel illum dolore eu feugiat nulla facilisis at vero eros et accumsan et iusto odio dignissim qui blandit praesent luptatum zzril delenit augue duis dolore te feugait nulla facilisi. Nam liber tempor cum soluta nobis eleifend option congue nihil imperdiet doming id quod mazim placerat facer possim assum. Typi non habent claritatem insitam; est usus legentis in iis qui facit eorum claritatem. Investigationes demonstraverunt lectores legere me lius quod ii legunt saepius. Claritas est etiam processus dynamicus, qui sequitur mutationem consuetudium lectorum. Mirum est notare quam littera gothica, quam nunc putamus parum claram, anteposuerit litterarum formas humanitatis per seacula quarta decima et quinta decima. Eodem modo typi, qui nunc nobis videntur parum clari, fiant sollemnes in futurum. -
Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetuer adipiscing elit, sed diam nonummy nibh euismod tincidunt ut laoreet dolore magna aliquam erat volutpat. Ut wisi enim ad minim veniam, quis nostrud exerci tation ullamcorper suscipit lobortis nisl ut aliquip ex ea commodo consequat. Duis autem vel eum iriure dolor in hendrerit in vulputate velit esse molestie consequat, vel illum dolore eu feugiat nulla facilisis at vero eros et accumsan et iusto odio dignissim qui blandit praesent luptatum zzril delenit augue duis dolore te feugait nulla facilisi. Nam liber tempor cum soluta nobis eleifend option congue nihil imperdiet doming id quod mazim placerat facer possim assum. Typi non habent claritatem insitam; est usus legentis in iis qui facit eorum claritatem. Investigationes demonstraverunt lectores legere me lius quod ii legunt saepius. Claritas est etiam processus dynamicus, qui sequitur mutationem consuetudium lectorum. Mirum est notare quam littera gothica, quam nunc putamus parum claram, anteposuerit litterarum formas humanitatis per seacula quarta decima et quinta decima. Eodem modo typi, qui nunc nobis videntur parum clari, fiant sollemnes in futurum.
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Thank you, everyone!
I will make a document list of the authors you recommended and forward it to my work e-mail so I can begin checking tomorrow. Most of the authors you mentioned are not familiar to me, so I have my work cut out for me!!!
Someone mentioned that some authors are more for YA (young adult) - yes, I've noticed that; for example, Cassandra Clare is classed as YA, but the adults also read her books.
I knew I could count on you-all for help! Thanks, again!
On YA, times change. When Orson Scott Card wrote Ender's Game it was consider very violent. It won the Hugo and Nebula awards which are both adult awards. But now I notice some folks consider it a YA book.
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Of newer authors, Sharon Shinn is a current favorite of mine.
I feel a lot of frustration with some fantasy authors - Mercedes Lackey is one - who are still writing, but whose quality has gone down so dramatically isn't just borderline pathetic. Another is Katherine Kurtz. I loved her Deryni series years ago, but she's added a couple in the last decade that were unreadable.
I have observed that some writers only have so many books in them. However if they have enough books to establish a reputation, they will still keep getting published.
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I've had LDS friends in different communities (we're not LDS). The only observation I have about socializing is that many LDS wards have a very strong sense of community, so that perhaps moms and kids don't feel like they "need" new friends. It's not rude, it's just that they have an established social network and aren't necessarily looking to broaden it. It's not dissimilar from playgroups/homeschool co-ops that are well established.
I've heard this sort of thing from new people to our state. We are in the South and new folks will sometimes comment that everyone seems friendly but that breaking into groups is more difficult.
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Beechick says homeschoolers have been "oversold" on grammar,
"No research anywhere shows that learning grammar helps students become better writers. There is no correlation between knowledge of grammar and ability to write well. This topic has been researched for practically a century..."
If I might point out that this is exactly what SWB says about writing programs. Her observation is that children doing a lot of early writing aren't being turned into good writers.
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You hyperfocused on hyperbole without proving it false and instead attacked the speaker. That's a clear fallacy. I think if you have a hard line against works being represented inaccurately, you should at least hold yourself to that standard, as Mergath was not the one misrepresenting. Not to mention, there is a certain amount of phrasing common in everyday speech that carries over to discussions on the internet. So when people say "every day", they don't always mean every single day without fail. Or if someone says "all the time", it's not likely they mean 100%. This is not a scientific discussion or a review for profit. This is a discussion. So I'm not really sure how this thread got so OT.
For future reference, can you retain the usernames on the quotes? It makes it really difficult to reply and see what to respond to when you don't.
I'm afraid I don't quite follow your reasoning. It appears you agree with my assessment that the first post I responded to had hyperbole.
I was not the one who in the first response to my argument that this post had hyperbole led with this sentence:
Defensive, much?
And then in my second argument chose to lead with
:001_rolleyes: I take it you're involved with sales for ToG?
Unlike you, mommymilkies, I am quite aware of how this thread got so OT. I'm afraid it was quite a kerfuffle.
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I thought that in the beginning Mergath said that TOG looks far more difficult to secularize than a program such as Sonlight.
I was just trying to point out, with her daughter being 5, maybe she has only looked at Sonlight's early levels. You can't compare the Christian teaching in Sonlight Core A to what you receive with TOG. A more accurate way to compare the ease of secularization of different programs would be to compare TOG with Sonlight's high school programs.
Yes, you are correct that she did say that. She later said she had never seen Sonlight except in catalogs.
I think you are correct in your assessment.
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Also, it's only mid-October of this school year, so it's super-early for plans to be set in stone. It's worth saying you had really hoped world history would be offered, especially if you can find other parents interested in it.
This is a good point.
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Quick peak through my week 10:
Pages 1, 2, 5, 6, 10, 11, 15, 17, 18, 21, 22, 25, 26 would need tweaking for a secular user. I'm not taking the time to read the whole week or pull quotes (it is all the same stuff that Mergath posted anyway), but it seems that "every other page" would be a fair statement. Year 1 is the hardest year to secularize. Some weeks within year one are harder to secularize than others.
I am a Christian who has used TOG for several years. I have absolutely zero problem saying that TOG has a whole boatload of Christian content and it is hard to secularize. Doable? Yes, I absolutely think so. Am I surprised that many others would think it is just not worth their time? Not at all.
Okay I set the bar of 15 pages. So I guess "every other page" is correct. Although I am surprised by some of those pages numbers since I think they must occur in the threads and assignment pages which aren't really teaching just organizing.
Further, I guess also the new weeks must be a lot shorter than mine which is 60 pages long that would be 30 pages not 13 to be every other.
Sorry that I can't be more gracious in accepting defeat, but that's the best i have in me at the moment.
I still think the first statement I objected to was hyperbole. That's what I objected to. I also let my self get distracted by later posts that were not on topic. That was my mistake, I should have stayed on topic.
And I completely agree with your last paragraph. I've said similar things and as I point out in my last post, I felt the one big thing that was posted and reposted is super simple to rework. I know sometimes your brain is tired and you can't do a simple rework like I did, that's why I use the always helpful, "Tell me about blank."
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If he goes on to earning a PhD, a masters with just classes will not matter; a masters with research and a thesis might give an edge for admission to grad school.
It would be better to call and talk to the department chair directly; this is too complicated to sort it out by email. But it would absolutely be appropriate to ask!
:iagree:
The only place I diverge is on calling. A high school student might not be able to handle the complexity of this in a call or the politics of it. If you do go call, prep the student, including maybe running a "grumpy, busy department chair" practice run or two.
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Given what you describe, what I would do is contact the teacher and gently call her on this. If she has a boss, I'd cc them.
I remember reading once that in dealing with a customer service issue, you should know what you want them to do for you. So you might think in advance what you want them to do that can be easily done. Personally I'd go for refund and then find something else to use.
One thing you maybe able to do to copy a test, is use the print screen button. This copies a picture of your screen and can be pasted into a document. This would allow you to have a copy of the test in hand so you know exactly what is on it.
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She did verify her statement with facts and direct quotes. There is really no direct facts or evidence you have given in your posts besides attempting to tear apart other programs Mergath has used and make this a personal attack. I also own Sonlight, many SCM materials, Rod & Staff, etc. and there is some comparatively troubling material in Sonlight for worldview type questions about other religions (or worse, the slavery issues-search on here for info about core 100-something I have NOT seen in TOG, thankfully), just like in TOG. TOG's, IMHO was more pronounced, though. I used it through Dialectic, and read through the Rhetoric for myself to decide whether to use it again. I have advanced Middle Schoolers.Actually if you read my posts above, you'll see I agreed with everything she pulled out and said I included that in my chart. I am disputing her contention that the materials that contain 1/2 or more secular content. Is she wishes to pull out enough to find substantially more than what I found then I'll be happy to agree with her. Thus far she has about 3/4 of a page in quotes, I found 5 pages or so. She claims around 30 pages exist. It would be pretty easy to prove I am dead wrong by finding around 15 pages.
As someone who is exceptionally pleased with the Rhetoric stage of TOG's years 2-4, I will agree that they provide excellent discussion material that I can't wait to use with my children who are *not quite* there yet. HOWEVER, you are ignoring the fact that this is a difficult program to secularize for many units (which I own and have used) because the discussion is less philosophical and more from ONE worldview which it pushes. Asking "What central errors do Buddhism and Hinduism share?" is not the same as sharing a discussion on comparative religions. For many religions, and respectful people, this question is troublesome. It's not an academic undertaking of an issue, but a personal, and religious one. One that is frankly not acceptable for secular folk. Or using Creation as the starting point of the timeline with an exact date-troubling not just for secular people, but everyone outside of the YEC worldview. Personally, I'm iffy about the quality of a program that goes against science to establish an exact date for creation, and it worries me about other parts of the program (do NOT start the YE/OE debate-I am mentioning it because it is a common reason outside of YEC for not using a program). That is what Mergath is referring to. It's rather obnoxious to have good advice given for the religious material in a program and have someone try to shoot it down because their religious beliefs coincide. That's great for you, but you are not the target audience for her thoughts, and your advice is misleading to a secular audience. Any search on TOG on this forum (as just one example) will come up with many discussions on how difficult some units are to secularize because of an Evangelical Worldview.
Yup, I agree you'd want to secularize TOG, but I'm not sure it is nearly as hard as has been made out. Let's take the question on central errors. Why not transform that to "Why central tenets to Buddhism and Hinduism share that are different from Christianity?" Or you could plug in other religions for Christianity.
As I've pointed out up thread this one question is one of a set actually asked of the students. The other question I put down (one of the four lines I note for a total of eight lines to students) would also be have to be changed. The rest of materials are directed at parents not students and honestly I'm not sure why they would need to be changed at all.
So what that means is two questions to students would need to changed. Wow! That doesn't strike me as a lot of work at all.
I can not understand why some people are taking this personal enough to argue over whether it can be secularized. It can, but the consensus seems to agree that it is difficult to do. The fact that she has a 5 year old is no more relevant than the fact that Beth's daughter is also 5 and uses TOG now (so her opinion would matter more?). The worldview push is not as prevalent in the lower grades, but it is still there, whether or not Mergath's daughter is ready for the material. We can all agree on that, yes?
More advice from users on secularizing TOG: http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/466223-if-youre-using-tog-secularly-any-advice-for-me-redesign-vs-classic/?hl=%2Btog+%2Bsecular&do=findComment&comment=4877909
Here, Candid, you even agree that it can be troublesome for non-Christians (and may I add, non Evangelicals, as I've met Orthodox and Catholics and UUs who agree). http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/446137-tapestry-of-grace-questions/?hl=tog+secular&do=findComment&comment=4564206
There is more if you use the search box, if you would like to know more on secularizing it. I will probably take the time to do so, but I would not recommend it for everyone-just like any program. It will take a lot of work. I would LOVE to look at the new updated TOG, but since I bought it ages ago, I can't get the free unit, so please enlighten me if this has changed (though I doubt it with Mergath's quotes), as I do plan on using it again.
Let me clarify that in my post, I am referring to the church history books used. I would never consider that a secular user would even want to study church history in the detail of those books and would probably cut them. But you are quite correct, church history books should be chosen by the user based on their taste.
However, those books are a tiny minority of all Tapestry books, if you include bios probably less 10% of all the books used in the program. I'd count them up and let you know, but the last time I tried to do a factual tally someone in this thread claimed I was a shill. So I'll leave you to do that.
In at least one of the threads above the posters indicate that Tapestry would be easy to use with younger children in a secular household so I'm not really seeing this difficulty level you claim exists.
Now as to difficulty, as I have illustrated in this post in this difficult week, there are only two questions directed at students that need to be changed. I don't think this is difficult at all.
But I HAVE NOT been arguing about how hard or easy Tapestry is to secularize but about Mergath's first post:
Every other page of the unit we got talks about how students should learn something about Buddhism and Hinduism so they can understand why they're wrong. Or about how these religions oppose Christianity. Or about how they're fighting Christianity for followers. And so on.In my view this is factually incorrect. I have suggested in this post an easy way to prove I am wrong or at least that the new DE has more of this content than my older print addition has.
I can not understand why some people are taking this personal enough to argue over whether it can be secularized.I'm not sure I am taking this personally. I'm just a person who doesn't like to characterize others and their work incorrectly. As I've noted I've got a fairly strict code on this one.
But I understand that some folks feel argument means someone is taking something personal. We do debate in my household and folks need to be able to make both sides of an argument well and with evidence to earn their debate chops.
American history recommendation
in High School and Self-Education Board
Posted
Tapestry of Grace does this. You'd have to do the add on government, philosophy and probably church history portions. And as you move forward in time you'd not be doing the enlightenment any more as philosophy evolves. It's an excellent program, but it will take about two years to do.