Candid
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Posts posted by Candid
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I'd just label it Ancient Literature.
I will send up a small flag of warning. A lot depends on the other class but Year 1 is pretty big! I think the analysis book Words of Delight is a must, but it is also the one book I've gotten carped at from my students including my strong readers. You might consider reading it over the summer. Just one chapter a week would get you going.
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If you have not done Year 1 at the R level that is the one reason I would not go with the split year plan. The Words of Delight book used for literature is amazing and many of the Ancient literature choices are also excellent.
What I would suggest instead is using the cutting charts in literature in particular for Year 2 if this is your children's first year at R level. This will allow you to take more time but still cover the significant works of literature.
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Yes, I bought everything before they went out of print. My youngest is in our 3rd year with the program which means he will finish up with NEM materials and move to additonal math next year.
We used them in a somewhat modified order. The first two years we did one level per year so NEM 1 and NEM 2, but the final year the NEM 3 materials do not fill a year, and the NEM 4B book is review for "O" levels which we didn't need so we did 3A, 3B, and 4A in the third year. At that point NEM Additional Maths was not available so we switched and did DM Additional Maths the fourth year.
Let me suggest you at least consider the DM series which I think provides more help for the teacher. If you can get the original DM series then I'd go with that. However, be cautious they are aligning the DM series with Common Core and re configuring it in some way. Those books are also sold as DM but DM7 and DM8. You don't want those for the four year program.
We did not find NEM hard or challenging in terms of needing anything beyond the text, and we rarely need solutions, having the answers so I could quickly check them worked fine and they are in the back of each book. As someone else has said the workbooks are extra, you don't need to do them at all, and Jenny would actually somewhat discourage folks from them when NEM was the primary program they had.
And if you go to the Singapore forums, they will work out problems for you.
Further we did all this a year early starting with 6th graders, although they were older 6th graders. My oldest is bright but he does not like math (doesn't have a hard time with just doesn't like it). My younger shows more natural ability with math, but he is not a traditional STEM guy, he is much more interested in life sciences. So I don't think you need to be mathy to use this program. By year 3 each of my guys was self-teaching as well. They read the text and did the exercise. Occasionally I'd go over the material with my youngest, but I never did much more than read the text and work through the example problems with him.
Since we were a year ahead, I went ahead and switched my oldest to AoPS Pre-Calculus in 10th grade, and he is now doing AoPS. He does not do the online classes, just the print materials. However, he's had no real problems with either program.
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Pamela, I'm sorry to be coming at this late, I am only on the board today checking any threads I have previously posted in due to an emergency with my dad. I doubt I will be back any time soon, so I"ll go ahead and post about this now since no one else helped you.
I would not trim the Bible stuff because it relies on the The Words of Delight book which Tapestry uses through out their four years. Your student will need to know their poetry analysis information well for the next years so keep that. I'd axe all the Akkadian poetry, let's face it Tapestry is the only program I know of that covers this in high school, as long as you have covered Gilgamesh earlier in the year you will be fine skipping this.
Personally I'd drop Libation Bears and Eumenides, the main point of keeping them is keeping intact the only Greek trilogy that was written as a trilogy. Trojan Women is middling to me, but I'd have to know what they are having you axe.
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While it is possible that taking her quiz materials will get her to focus, I think it is equally possible that a child might just refuse to work on the test prep in a meaningful way. A middle ground might be to have her earn quiz prep by doing meaningful test prep. But you'd have to define meaningful. But I'm willing to concede that with a stubborn child this might not work either.
BUT I think you need some outside voices to help get through to her. I'd quietly call and talk with her quiz mentors and see if any of them are with you on her needing test prep. If you can find that person, then have them talk with her and try to tie this into her quiz interest.
Which brings me to my last thought. What does she want to do with her life? Does she see herself as a missionary or some other sort of Christian worker? If so, can you find people to talk to her about that. I know folks who have gone that route and they have in some cases needed a lot of academic prep (I'm thinking of Bible translators in particular).
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I really like the The Awakening Europe which is an Upper Grammar book used in unit 2 of Year 2. I have read nothing like it at this level (and really up some). They cover what we might think of as the religous wars in Europe by focusing on particular people and events. It is quite interesting and well told. BUT it appears your students are probably too young for the UG level.
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OMG! Isn't that annoying when they can't/won't give you a specific answer? Yes, ask to speak to an admissions counselor. Surely, the dingbat isn't in admissions...
I hesitate to point out that many admissions officers are new grads. They aren't necessarily dumb as naive. Most departments have some older folks, but I gather turnover is high.
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I picked this book up when we visited Yellowstone: http://www.amazon.com/Field-Guide-Geology-David-Lambert/dp/0816065101/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1382725440&sr=8-1&keywords=field+guide+to+geology
It is excellent. I notice at Amazon that there is a whole series of Roadside geology books for each state.
From my long ago college geology class, the next step beyond knowing rocks and minerals is interpreting landscapes to determine what formed them. We used geologic survey maps to do that. I like that portion of the class a lot better than the rocks and minerals part.
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Your local pregnancy care center may have materials or a class they could do with her. It varies from center to center. I have heard recently of a program called Integrity that is supposed to be good.
From my own readings in the literature around abortion might I suggest one straightforward and one strange things. First, make clear to her that you will support her if she does get pregnant, do nothing to imply you will toss her out, etc. You don't have to say this flat out, but to tell her with some frequency that no matter what she has done or what the situation that you will love and support her would be a very good thing.
AND, the weird one, make sure she knows neither you nor your husband will drop dead of a heart attack or some other aliment if she should become pregnant.
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Can someone quick summarize the difference between paper and DE. I like paper too, but also like the idea of only printing out what I'll use at each stage.
What am I missing if I don't get DE.
Also, I managed to hop on and apply early October, didnt see anything from them so applied again a week later and got the download email right away. Got an email from them saying I had double applied, etc. then explained my situation. I think they might have just bed a bit slow at the beginning. And I was so excited .... :-)
I started when there was print only and honestly the biggest thing you get if you get print only is the ability to transfer the curriculum to someone else.
If you aren't sure Tapestry is for you, then buy print only because you will be able to resell it and recoup your money. Although be aware Tapestry is narrowing support of resold print only versions which might lower resale price.
Personally I think if I was to buy again I'd go with DE, but I already own materials that I am reusing for the print so there's no real point and I do like that in the end I can bless someone else by giving them my old print versions. Although even with only an 8th grader and 11th grader that is still a long time away.
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Check Year 1, Week 1, p. 44, Bible Survey and Church History: Background Information. It is available for free online for everyone as part of the Go to Egypt mini-unit that is always offered for free.
The discussion of common grace and special grace makes it very clear that they are, in fact, using the term in the Reformed sense.
Yes, I agree not so much with the first paragraph of that discussion there, but when they start talking about "special grace" they have moved from a broad concept that most protestants will endorse to a more narrow one, but in the actual history teaching when I see common grace themes I see the more broad protestant take, but this is another area where you to start defining terms and to be honest just reading terms like "prevenient grace" in the first wikipedia article I linked gives me a bad case of MEGO.
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Good lord, Candid. If you keep this up, people are going to start talking about us. :blush:
I am flattered that you can't stop thinking about me, though.
Ah, you make me blush, but I am way too old for you.
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Apparently, you don't know Reformed theology very well. GRACE is preached ALL the time. In fact, it's why they name things as they do (Sovereign Grace, Tapestry of Grace, Grace Community, etc)
Actually if you read my full post the antecedent of "it" is not grace but common grace.
http://en.wikipedia....and_Arminianism
If you read the whole article you'll see they divide common grace down even more, but the way in which Tapestry uses it is common to most protestant theology.
However, I'm not surprised that you had not heard it before. It's not exactly a much preached bit of theology just kind of a background thread.
I am happy to know reformed churches teach grace a lot so do most protestant denominations.
Common grace is not the same thing, that's why wikipedia has one article for it and one for grace, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grace_(Christianity)
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Okay, I'm going to outline the things that have jumped out at me in TOG as 1) someone who was an atheist until five years ago, 2) who then joined a liberal Episcopalian church for almost four years, and 3) has been at an Orthodox church for a little over a year (in other words, having never been an evangelical Protestant).
- there have been several instances of describing other, non-Christian civilizations that were advanced as examples of God's "common grace." Had I not thoroughly investigated TOG beforehand and found out that the authors were Reformed and then investigated what exactly Reformed is, I would not catch onto what they were meaning by this. But, this apparently is a Reformed thing. As far as I can tell, this is the only thing that sticks out to me as Reformed and not just general Protestant evangelical.
- there is talk of the error of non-Christian religions and how to spot their errors and defend Christianity in the Worldview material. I don't specifically recall seeing that in the History section, but I may be wrong on that.
- The Church History and Worldview sections obviously have a Protestant Christian bias. We use some of it and don't use some of it.
- they point out when people are behaving like Christians or not. This isn't something I'm used to (judging the "Christian-ness" of others) and I generally just ignore.
- they talk about God's "plan" a lot--not in a "we know what God wants and this is in His plan and this isn't" kind of way, but by way of pointing out that everything that happens, whether it seems good or bad, is all part of God's overarching plan for humanity.
I agree with most of what you have said here. I've bolded the one thing I think is incorrect. Here's a quote found at Wikipedia:
Both Calvinists and Arminians generally accept the concept of common grace in that there are undeserved blessings which God extends to all mankind.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_grace#Between_Calvinism_and_Arminianism
If you read the whole article you'll see they divide common grace down even more, but the way in which Tapestry uses it is common to most protestant theology.
However, I'm not surprised that you had not heard it before. It's not exactly a much preached bit of theology just kind of a background thread.
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Love playing the victim, don't you. I didn't choose to focus on that particular part of a post. You've been arguing the entire thread that the Somervilles aren't Reformed and that you haven't ever seen or had anyone show you evidence of it. I've proven it and now you choose to play the victim and redirect. You apparently pick and choose what to read into people's posts.
You posted about a freebie.
Various people ordered the freebies.
Some came back with concerns.
You tried to knock down everyone that had a concern.
You started declaring things that you obviously had no knowledge of and couldn't just admit that you didn't know and others might actually know something that you don't.
Now you are playing the victim card.
I stand by my first post. And as I have posted quotes over and over now late in this thread, there's been some pretty personal attacks that had absolutely nothing to do with my arguments.
For the record here's my first post:
This strikes me as hyperbole in the extreme. I've used every unit of Tapestry and this isn't even close to correct.
However, Mergath does pinpoint where Tapestry will appear to be Christian: when they are dealing with other religions. Is that really a surprise to anyone?
Added a bit later: The books used by Tapestry are majority secular including most of those on other religions, for instance, they use the Usborne book of world religions. Most references to Christianity will occur in the instructional materials for the parent making this a super easy program to switch out.
Further, some questions which may strike the secular user as Christian are actual those of ethics, and might easily be switched to generic ethical questions presuming a similar ethical set.
However, most such questions do not occur in the materials directed at grammar aged children but at Dialectic and Rhetoric students who should be in the process of being challenged to process all such issues anyway.
Back when I was a teenager arguing with my brother, I noticed that he went to name calling when he couldn't debate my arguments. I should have recognized that same pattern here and called it early on. BUT now even calling it late in the thread I'm still being called names instead of having ideas debated.
Notice, not the ideas that people say I am making but the one I began with. That's my argument. I made a mistake following other people's arguments. I regret that, but I'll stick with my first argument.
Am I wrong that attacking a person because of their associations is an ad hominem attack? Am I wrong that saying some one is defensive, or a shill or playing a victim card are all ad hominem attacks? If so use good solid arguments to show me where I am wrong. Nope, I'm just calling the rhetorical device for what it is. I know I've seen that in other threads on this board.
Stop calling names and use arguments or do what you said and stop.
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Okay, I looked at your links. I'm still not understanding your argument. What Mergath said is TRUE. Tapestry of Grace is written from a Christian worldview. Other religions are studied from the perspective of a Christian, if you study it as written. (And dare I add that our Catholic and Orthodox friends would say a "reformed" Christian worldview? ;) )
My point is that I don't understand why this is an argument. This board has many, many who are not Christian and they just want to know if this is a curriculum that could be a good fit for their family. I'm saying that while I know people who are trying their darndest to tweak it, it is decidedly Christian. Therefore, if someone wants secular, they need to know that they are going to have to invest a considerable amount of time on top of their considerable financial investment, to have what they want. This will not be an "open the notebook and read the teacher notes if you didn't get the book read" kind of thing for them...because the teacher's notes are not a neutral perspective.
No actually what Megarth said is not true. The best someone could come up with in a pure counting is 13 pages with references to Christianity. That is in no way, shape or form every other page of a 60 page plan.
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No, I'm not interested in devoting time to this. I said it is "written from a reformed protestant perspective" because the Somerville family is "protestant" and "reformed" and have been members of a Sovereign Grace church, which is "protestant" and "reformed", and even sold books by CJ Mahaney, who is also "protestant" and "reformed", on their website for encouraging teachers. Catholic and Orthodox families will absolutely want to know it is from this perspective. I am not defending anything. I'm stating facts.
The bulk of my post was mainly to be informative and helpful to people seeking an honest answer so they can make the best decision for their own family regarding how much they are willing to have to tweak the curriculum for it to be a fit in relation to how much they are going to spend.
Notice, I didn't say I'd join such a thread ;)
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ETA: Just so people know, my point was that for some association and background on authors does matter to some people and people may want to research. I tried to be brief. Candid wanting EVIDENCE...well, the dirty laundry just got dragged out. In fact, Kathryn nearly had me convinced to try it...but digging around google brought out some things I had forgotten and new things that I was unaware of. Thank you, Candid, for the challenge. Now I know what I have to consider when deciding where my money will go.
I'm disappointed that of all my point you pick this one as the last to respond to:
Actually this is the author of the book's blog. I can see why he gave the book to Ms. Summerville to review, but I'm not sure that makes her curriculum reformed, heck, I'm not sure even if he is reformed if that makes his book reformed. Have you read it? I had it on my own reading list when it came out, but I never have enough time to read everything on that. Here's what she said about his bookThis tells me I haven't been very clear. I hear you when you say that association and background matters for some people. It does not for me. I have been too expansive in answering points I should never have gotten into. It's a flaw of mine.
I like to take people and things as I find them. And I'll be honest that I find this kind of guilt by association to be bad reasoning. In my book it's an ad hominem attack. As I have said in my last post, I should have dealt with that problem earlier instead of trying to refute the attack. Big mistake on my part. Would it have changed things on this thread? Don't know. As I have said before it has been quite a kerfuffle.
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Candid,
I am Presbyterian (reformed and calvinist...NOT recontructionist/dominionist). I use TOG and have for several years (my eldest is a senior in college now). I don't understand your argument. TOG is most definitely a curriculum written from a reformed protestant perspective. I think it's important for people to know that. Can and do user tweak TOG? Yes! As good as a potential fit it is for my family, I do a fair amount of tweaking myself!
TOG is expensive and time consuming. If I were not a protestant Christian, I truly doubt that I would be willing to pay the money for TOG and then have to spend additional time tweaking it. I would recommend TWTM as a foundation. (I already lean more toward TWTM, using TOG to "flesh that out" for my fogbrain.) The value in the $$ spent on TOG, in my opinion, is in the teacher's notes that help me in the discussion time with my kids if I have not had the time to read the selections they read. (Even then, I sometimes come up against something that I point out that we disagree with and go from there, but my gap is not as wide as many of you who are asking questions here) Again, I do a bit of tweaking, which is additionally time consuming for me. These notes come in for the dialectic and rhetoric level students. There is value in buying TOG for younger students in that you, AND they, learn the ropes before the heavier assignments come into play if you are going to continue forward to the end, otherwise, in my opinion, it's overkill for younger students.
It is NOT my desire to bash TOG. It IS my desire to put myself in the shoes of people who are trying to make a big decision about a large amount of money to spend on a curriculum where updates are constantly being put out and books are constantly changing. If you buy your books, you are insulated against all the updates. But many people suggest TOG and how easy it is to use the library. For many, it's not.
I'm just trying to be honest here for the sake of moms who may be where *we* are financially. Hope this helps.
You are probably quite correct, however, I do encourage you to go back and read the very first post about this and my own response. Then read that first sentence in the post made to my response. And the the first sentence of the next response to me. I made a mistake not addressing those immediately.
I stand by my first response, the first post was over the top. The very content of this thread has proved that.
I disagree with you that the content of Tapestry is reformed. It is protestant, but reformed, I've yet to find anything that jumped out at me as being that.
But we'd have to go through a process of defining terms to be able to decide what content would be reformed beyond protestant content. Since I think this thread has gone way to far afield, I would ask you that you start a spin off thread.
But that is not why I got sucked into this mess and my biggest mistake has not sticking more closely to my original point and pointing out the poor spirit of early posts made in response to me.
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I agree, if you feel he needs to take Calculus later you can see if a different professor is teaching it OR maybe find an alternate resource to take it with.
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Reformed site, Reformed book, reviews by those that are Reformed
Actually this is the author of the book's blog. I can see why he gave the book to Ms. Summerville to review, but I'm not sure that makes her curriculum reformed, heck, I'm not sure even if he is reformed if that makes his book reformed. Have you read it? I had it on my own reading list when it came out, but I never have enough time to read everything on that. Here's what she said about his book
Since God has chosen that ideas are best expressed in words, and that THE IDEA—the revelation of His Son as Lord and Savior—is to be learned through His timeless and matchless Word, Christians dare not lose sight of the primacy of books amidst the torrent of fast-moving, visual images of our culture. Tony Reinke compelling argues from Scripture and lessons he has learned in life that “reading is a way to preserve and cultivate the sustained linear concentration we need for life.†As an educator, I couldn’t agree more! Sustained reading must remain the heartbeat of any worthy educational program that seeks to produce Christian thinkers, leaders, and apologists. Homeschooling parents who are trying to craft reading lists as they raise Christian children will find gracious and principled guidance here. More, Tony offers great ideas for parents to foster a love for reading, beginning with their own example.Now back to your quote, I'm sorry I can't title it that way, but I'm having issue with quotes today:
And, yes, from what I'm reading online, it seems that Marcia Somerville avoids directly discussing any Reformed views online other than to try to chalk it up to a "pros and cons as with other theological views", which is a smart business move on her part. However, having been Reformed, it's not terribly difficult to see things that others may not. At one time it was discussed more openly. There have been bumps that have come with running a business and it seems she has overcome them.
Or maybe, like our website hostess, she has tried her best to write a fairly open protestant curriculum and doesn't really feel that her own particular flavor of personal church attendance is relevant. She's open about her Christanity, her protestant flavor that is enough. And as Duffy notes, she tries hard to include positive works of less closely aligned Christian groups like Orthodox and RC.
Is Tapestry Christian? Yes! Does it include negative references to other world views? Yes. Is that in the materials for grammar students? Mostly not. However Dialectic and Rhetoric students are expected to think about this in detail and be prepared to defend their statements with points of fact.
In the end, I really like Tapestry of Grace, I have said on many, many threads that it is a protestant Christian curriculum. The Hinduism quotes from above certainly show that clearly. They believe Christians should have a missionary bent, you will detect that when they are dealing with other world views. This is a common protestant worldview.
They also believe Christians should have ethics and you will also detect that when they deal with certain historical figures and ask your children to think about those figure's historical actions and what the Bible might say about them. I like this.
How difficult all this is to transform will depend, I expect, a lot on the person doing the transformation. I have certainly seen that some people, Christian and secular, never want to hear a word outside their own world view. If that is you, either Christian or secular, Tapestry of Grace is not for you, for it is filled to the very brim with discussions about those views. Nor do they just provide neat summaries of world views from either their own point of view or from a "textbook" type of book. Instead they will ask you and your oldest students to open works of literature and government and worldview and grapple with their authors who will often be the best and brightest a particular worldview can offer: Machiavelli, Kafka, Goethe, Shakespeare, Conrad, and many more. They all speak directly to you if you use Tapestry. And Tapestry won't hesitate to join the great conversation and speak directly back in a protestant Christian language.
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*sigh* you just don't get it. It's not a demand. The author's beliefs were full on discussion at one time and there were people that spoke directly with her to make certain that what we were getting was a REFORMED material. So either those people are LYING and you have information that states otherwise or you don't know and I can go on what my experience was from the past until the author states that her position is different or changed.
Hmmm, well it certainly read like a demand.
I did respond to what you said by a series of arguments none of which you've really respond to above except to claim that I am saying people are lying. That's not what I said. Instead I've implied both that it is possible that people heard what they wanted to hear and potentially that they expanded what they heard when they repeated it (or made it more black and white). Further, I've also said that it is possible your own memory is inaccurate, there's plenty of scientific evidence to support that in regards to memory.
I suspect this is why the Bible relies so heavily in its own civil code on first hand witnesses and not repeated evidence. Even in our own legal system, which is much less strict, hearsay evidence is generally inadmissible.
But you have I think made it clear to me that when you entered this thread that there was little anyone could do to change your mind. Kathryn posted several long and detailed posts showing you the current fruit of Tapestry, but because neither she nor I can offer any personal statement from the author that isn't good enough which is a shame because the fruit evidence is pretty good and it's not hearsay.
As I have said to other poster, it's a shame this thread has gone so far off track. It was started as a way to share a pretty darn good deal. Instead it's been a bit of a kerfuffle.
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Combine it all with who her husband works for and the people that backed them...it's more that it fits than that it's what I wanted to hear. Honestly, unless MS comes out and states that she is NOT a Calvinist or Reformed and does not believe in Dominionism or Theocracy, I'll continue with what I know from past dealings ;)
Well I think that's a far-fetched demand (made as it is on another board that I doubt she even reads), but you have clarified where you are coming from and your open-mindedness towards to curriculum which I think is quite helpful.
If TOG doesn't work for you anymore, what do you use?
in High School and Self-Education Board
Posted
Since you have year plans in hand, I'd encourage you to give the discussions a try. They are the center and the core of Tapestry. To not use them is to gut the program. They are what makes the plan worth what you pay for the program. Otherwise you could use anyone's booklist. I absolutely love engaging with my older students in history and literature.