Has anyone had their child take the DOMA Pre-algebra assessment to decide whether or not to move on to Algebra? If so, what level of mastery was your threshold for making that decision (pre-algebra vs. algebra)? My daughter took the assessment, and while I got a lovely report from the website, I can't find any recommendations about what to do based on those reports.

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My daughter is going into 7th grade. I have always wondered if something was up with her - dyslexia or something else - based on the level that she has appeared to struggle with reading over the years. I've had her take several free online reading assessments, and she has always scored average or above average. She took the CAT-5 test in grades 1, 3, and 5, and scored above average in all measures except for spelling (which was terrible). Today she took the DORA test (online reading assessment), and again scored well above average, for all measures except for spelling (which was 2 grades behind). But here's the thing - she hates reading. She appears to struggle to read when she does it, and often needs my help sounding out hard words, does poorly in vocabulary, etc. She liked the Little House books when she read them a few years ago, but has yet to read another book that she really enjoyed, since then, and I have to practically force her to "read for pleasure." She describes reading as a tedious process, that is all work, and not worth the trouble. She will do anything to get out of doing schoolwork that requires a lot of independent reading, and has practically no retention in subjects like science and history (which granted, she doesn't enjoy), unless she takes intricate notes. And yet, she enjoys being read to by other people, and I notice that when I read to her, she watches my face and not the words in the book (which is the opposite of what I used to do when I was read to). So I'm confused. Here is a kid who is testing fabulously on various standardized tests on all of the reading measures, but who behaves like someone who has major reading difficulties. We had her do vision therapy about 8 months ago, and according to the developmental optometrist, she improved as much as one would expect (meaning she is now testing at appropriate levels for her age, or higher). She does have a small level of far-sightedness, but she has reading glasses. Her spelling is atrocious, and at least THAT shows up on the testing. But when I watch her try to read anything that isn't really easy, she looks like she is struggling and working just as hard to do that as she does when she is spelling. Of course there is also the fact that since she has been homeschooled all along, she has gotten the kind of one on one attention that most kids don't get - which I imagine would raise the scores of a child with learning disabilities, wouldn't it? So something doesn't match up. After looking at her DORA scores tonight, dh says, "is she just educationally lazy?" And I think that it can't just be that - because I was educationally lazy, but I loved to read an interesting book. And I simply can't believe that anyone would struggle like she used to to sound out words because of laziness, when following mom's directions on sounding out, would have been MUCH easier. Not to say there isn't some laziness involved - I have seen her choose the easier path when it was the wrong thing to do - but I just can't shake that something is off. We were supposed to have her evaluated by a guy who is an expert in reading disorders, but that appointment has been postponed, and now that the school year is coming up soon, I have to make curriculum decisions before we get that. Has anyone else experienced this? Had a child who tests really well, but has a problem? Ever have a child actually diagnosed with a learning problem, after doing really well on standardized tests? Is it possible that a learning disability of some sort could be marked solely by poor spelling, and not by the other tested measures? Sorry, I know this is probably a question I need to ask the guy who tests her, but since we won't be seeing him for a while, I'm wondering if anyone else has experience with this type of a kid.

She'll be getting the VT. It's just a matter of money and timing. lol, yes I laughed. You could be right, although I don't really fit the profile...the book looks interesting, thanks for the suggestion. I'm glad to hear that. I feel that way about variety too, but there have been times where too much variety caused my kids to lose focus (not sure when, but...) and I want to be sure that doesn't happen.

I'm ok with the tough love. I agree with you. And yet, the spirit is willing... Spelling goes at the top of our list each day, but then I wake up exhausted and the desk is a mess, and I can't clean it without stopping school altogether, and another obligation pops up before noon, and before you know it dd is working on her other work in the other room and when I finally have a clean desk and a spare second I've forgotten that I need to do spelling. I know that ultimately, these are excuses and this is my fault, but I've known that for a long time, and I continue to fail to pull it all together. If there was no chance that anything else but AAS would work for her, then I would do what it took - but it might include quitting outside activities and completely reworking all 4 of my kids' curriculum to give me more free time. And knowing that next year, I'll be having to do spelling with 3 out of my 4 kids (this year only 2 of them needed it), I am trying to face the music that I am not a good bet to succeed at this. Thankfully, I think there are probably other options, and because my dd is old enough, and pretty responsible, and is now becoming more motivated to spell better, I am hoping that giving her daily independent spelling work will make a big difference, even if it isn't the very perfect program. Ok, this is interesting. You are the first person (I've asked elsewhere also) to have done multiple programs. I am worried about two different programs causing confusion. Did it cause confusion for your dd? I know you are saying that the root of the problem was vision, but aside from that, do you think the intensive approach was helpful? Dd has seen a developmental optometrist, and we are told she tracks terribly, and needs vision therapy. So we are working on that as well. But her reading ability tests at somewhere between average and well above average (depending on the test), so I don't know if I can blame the tracking for the level of difficulty with spelling. Thanks all of you for all of the input - I am taking it all in...

My daughter who is going into 6th grade in the fall, struggles mightily at spelling. Her recent standardized test placed her in the 16th percentile in spelling (and above average in all the other measures, making it appear that her potential is much higher than her current ability). She has been using All About Spelling, and while I think it is a wonderful program, I have not been able to do it with her consistently. The one subject she needs the most work on, is the subject that she covers the least, because with the busy-ness of our school days, the thing that requires us to clean off the desk and pull out the giant tray of tiny pieces is the thing that gets put off and put off... I know that I SHOULD say, "just do it, your child needs this." But I've already said that, and I can not seem to pull it together with all of the other things pulling at me during the day. I had her take the placement test for Phonetic Zoo, and the result was that she was ready for the first level of it (if she had scored worse, they would've recommended All About Spelling), so I think I am going to get that for her, since it can be done much more independently - which means it will get done. I don't know that it is really the best program for her though, and I keep being reminded of how good AAS is. So I am mulling through a couple of options for next year: 1-Have her ALSO continue with All About Spelling at whatever pace I can muster, knowing that it will be a second program. Not sure if doing 2 spelling programs will be confusing or just provide the extra that she needs. 2-Have her teach All About Spelling to one of her younger sisters. This way the spelling rules will be snuck into her brain too, and she has more time to do it more consistently than I do. Of course I don't want to short change the younger children. She is a good teacher, but she's not Mom. Has anyone doubled up like that (#1) or had an older child teach a younger child with an ulterior motive? How did it go?

Thanks! I have told him to expect to work on Math for at least an hour each day. He wasn't relieved, lol. This will help though. I am planning on breaking up some of the lessons, but the ones we've done so far don't seem to need to be split.

My 7th grade ds is starting Singapore's Discovering Mathematics this year. We've done 3 days of it so far, and he is overwhelmed by it. He thinks it takes too long to do the work. So far, it IS taking him an awfully long time, but it is my impression that he would be able to work much faster if he would stay more focused on the concepts and use the text to help him answer the exercises. The format definitely changes from Primary Mathematics to Discovering Mathematics, and it is certainly throwing us for a loop. I assume that as you move to higher levels of math, the daily work will take longer, but I don't know how what that means for 7th grade Singapore / prealgebra. So my decision needs to be - do I slow things down to relieve stress, or do I explain to him that because he is at a higher level, he will now need to work longer than before. After all, expectations certainly play a role in whether or not you feel successful. But I don't want to push him too hard either. Those of you who have done Singapore in 7th grade, or who have done prealgebra (I think that's largely what this level covers), or who have had 7th graders...what do you think is a reasonable range of time for a child of that age/level to be spending on math each day?

Thank you for the perspective, and also for the link to the yahoo group! :)

Thank you, it does help! A follow up, was your 5th grader advanced at the time you did SWI B with him?

I have decided to get IEW this fall for my 5th and 7th graders. My problem is that the 7th grader is advanced and the 5th grader is more average (struggling reader), making the gap between their academics larger than their actual age difference. I have tried teaching them before, and have found it to be frustrating (the older one would be bored, and the younger one was always lost). An example of the difference - in 4th grade, my son just gobbled up the Famous Men books (Greece and Rome), but when my daughter got to 4th grade, she couldn't read it at all, and even reading it to her was very difficult and resulted in very little retention. Of course, she was quite aware of the fact that she couldn't get it and her brother had no problem, so switching her to Story of the World, not only gave her success, but also allowed her to do something that wasn't comparible to what her brother did before. So anyway, the company suggested that I use level B with both of them, and suggested that to accommodate the difference, I watch the SWI dvd's with the children, and then just help out my 5th grader as needed. The trick for me is that I am also schooling 2 younger kids, and am trying to maximize the independent work (without sacrificing the learning). Additionally, I don't want my 5th grader to feel like she is behind - I want her to feel like the program really is right on her level. For that reason, I am contemplating getting both A and B (eek, the cost!!!), but don't want to waste the money if it really isn't needed. For those of you who have already done IEW, can you tell me: --Did you watch the SWI dvd's with your child who was the appropriate age for their leve (ie. the 7th grader in level B, or a 5th grader in level A) --Did watching the TWSS dvd's enable you to watch the SWI dvd's less? --What percentage of your children's work in this subject was able to be done independently? --Do you have experience with mixing ages into one level vs. actually buying 2 separate levels? Thanks.

Thanks! I'm feeling more hopeful now!

I'm not sure if this should go here or in the Special Needs subforum, but afaik, my dd doesn't have "special needs" (?) so I'll do it here unless I'm advised to switch .... My 6.5yo dd is nearing the end of her K year. and she does not not how to read numbers higher than 10. She has completed most of Singapore's Essential Kindergarten Math books, and she knows how to add and subtract. She knows what a "ten" is and can group tens and ones. It took her longer than I expected to learn the original 10 digits, but good old repetition seemed to do the trick. Now, she will look at the number 16, and read, "60?" Or see the number 21 and say, "200?" or "12?" It's like she has absolutely no idea how the digits are put together, even though we have gone over it repeatedly. If I guide her through it, she can answer the questions like: (ie. for the number 23) How many tens are there? How many is 2 tens? (she gets this more often than not, but not always) How many ones are there? So if there are 2 tens and 3 ones, how many do you have? (at which point, she will start at 20, then count on 3 more - sometimes she does this independently, other times needs me to prompt her) It's confusing to me, because one minute she seems to understand it, and the next it's like you'd never discussed it before. Also, it strikes me as complicated to use tens and ones just to regognize 2-digit numbers. I certainly didn't learn them that way, and I'm pretty sure my older 2 kids didn't learn them that way either. They always seemed to KNOW them. But she doesn't seem able to just memorize the numbers, so I'm at a loss other explaining what the digits mean. I'm looking for other ways that I can explain or drill these with her. Anything easy that doesn't require spending money. Something that will give me some variety for the sake of MY patience?Are there other ways I can explain these, or drill these with her? Other than this, she's ready to start Singapore level 1a - I've already had to push back it's start date (originally 3rd quarter, then 4th quarter, now July), and I really want to get moving. Any thoughts?

Thanks for all of your replies. I am processing all of this excellent information. Dh read the thread too - he suspects that he is dyslexic, and learned to cope with it by himself as a child. Dd is due for a well-child visit soon, so I will discuss this with her pediatrician. Also, I know someone whose kids are doing vision therapy in my town, so I will ask her for a recommendation. This is a tough time of year for us. We are planning an extended vacation in January, so I'm not sure how quickly WE will be able to move on this. Maybe we can at least get the ball rolling before hand. I really appreciate your help and advice. :)

That's what has made this so hard. I used the tests here: http://homeschooling.gomilpitas.com/articles/060899.htm and she tests at a 4th grade level. First, her spelling is awful. She would memorize the words on her spelling lists (we would discuss the phonics of it), and score great on the test at the end of the week, but retained very little of it long-term. (We are using All About Spelling with her now, and hopefully that will help). Next, I've always wondered if there was something wrong with her vision. She saw an opthamologist a little over a year ago, and tested fine in several measures (I don't remember exactly what he tested now). But when she tries to read numbers on a clock, or words on a page from a certain distance (that other people can read fine), she says she can't see it right. When she holds her reader to do a reading lesson with me, she holds it just a few inches from her face. She often loses track of where we are on the page, or goes back to the beginning of the same line instead of advancing to the next one. When she was learning to read, she had to be heavily prodded (like prodded to the point of crying) to sound out words, and would regularly start the word then guess the ending. She often added sounds that weren't there. While she can read a lot of words just fine now, she still uses those same bad habits when she encounters words she doesn't know. I still have to prod her to sound words out, and she often chooses to guess before she will try to sound out. With the amount of focus I put on teaching her to always try to sound it out first, it doesn't make sense. Reading lessons are still a very difficult chore, even though we have moved beyond "learn-to-read" lessons. When she completes her grammar workbook, she regularly "forgets" to read the directions before completing the task, and always prefers it if I read it to her. Social studies and science are both reading based. She is capable of decoding most of the words at the level they are printed in the books, but she would get lost in a reading assignment from those books if I had her do it herself. So I read to her, and she understands it wonderfully. Today I noticed that while she was reading a book to herself, she was moving her lips as she read. And yet, when she was in a religious ed class last year at our church, with 20 other public schooled kids, she was one of the 2 best readers in her class. And this fall, she read the Lion the Witch and the Wardrobe to herself. Granted I don't know how well she read it (and it did take her a very long time), but she did say that it wasn't difficult, and she was able to tell me about the plot. I do believe though, that grade level performance doesn't necessarily indicate that everything is fine, because it doesn't take into account her potential (and whether she is meeting it or not), and it doesn't take into account how painstaking a process it might have been to get to that level (and that it is to continue) and the fact that she had a 1:1 ratio while being taught. My judgement is informed or clouded (?) by my experience with her older brother, who is a reading wiz. I don't know if there is such a discrepancy between the way he learns, and the way she does because they are just different people, because he is simply more bright, or because she has a block than needs to be un-blocked. Of course, I try to compare her performance and habits to what I think is "normal" and not to him, but I don't really have much to go on in judging "normal."

I've been thinking about having my 3rd grade dd assessed. I can't quite put my finger on what the problem might be, but she has always struggled somewhat with certain aspects of reading and spelling, and there are signs that something isn't quite right with the way she sees what she is reading (she has had her vision tested by a specialist with normal results). So I go back and forth on whether or not she has a problem, but I don't want to regret not looking into it. I'm not even sure what the terminology is, or what exactly to look for - I guess things like dyslexia/processing issues/vision issues... Living in NY State, I imagine there is the possibility of being evaluated through the school district (??), but I'm not sure if I really want to include the school district in this issue (if she does get a label. I'm wondering if I can have her evaluated privately. What sort of professional does this, and what would I call the testing? Any advice on where I would start? Edited to add (in case it is not clear), that dd IS homeschooled.

Yes, I do think that "making a ten" is an important skill. I use counting chips and multilink cubes, based on what it suggested in the Home Instructor's Guide (HIG). Do you use the HIG? I have found it to be indispensable to introducing and explaining the concept. For your particular problem, I would probably use 7 blue linking cubes and 8 red ones, linked into 2 sticks. Then, I'd break up the 8 red cubes into 3 and 5, and make a "10 stick" out of the 7 blue and 3 red (or more likely, prompt the child to do it). This way, you have the visual of the 10, and of the original parts. Also, before this, I'd make sure the child understands what "a ten" is and that she is comfortable using that term. I would keep working on this until they get it, using different manipulatives. With counting chips, I'd arrange them on the desk in a nice 2x5 array, so that it is easy to visualize the 3 that are missing to make the 10.

I read through Harcourt Science textbooks with my Kindergartener. Just because I already have the books, and they are colorful and she likes them. I don't expect much in the way of retention - it's Kindergarten after all. We just discuss it for the moment, and if we have the ability, we might do an easy investigation or two. For my older kids (3rd and 5th), I use Noeo Science. I love that they spend an entire year on one topic (this year, they are studying physics), and that they are using living books instead of texts. This is more true for the 3rd grader doing level 1 than the 5th grader doing level 2. The 3rd grader and I read the books together, and we discuss/narrate what we read. The 5th grader reads independently from either living books or the Usborne encyclopedia and does written narrations. Both levels have experiments built in, and we do some, but not all of them - some of them are optional. Many of them do not require much advance planning. In 7th grade, we will switch back to the textbook model, but by that age, single subject science is the norm. Right now, this is a good way for me to have something that includes, but is not fully based on, hands on learning, that is not general science, and that most days doesn't require prep work (and on experiment days, it's not too bad). I like it.

I don't think he has to SWITCH. But like the other poster said, as you're working through the lesson together, point out both ways, and make sure that he CAN do it both ways, even if it's not the way he chooses to do it every time. Those skills will be useful eventually, but I also don't like to take away something that makes sense. So when we get to a problem like you're describing, I'll let them do it their way. Then we'll discuss the other way(s) it can be done. At first, this will require me to do all the explaining. But after doing this over and over again, I'll just have to ask, "what's another way you could find the answer?" and the child will show me the other way. Other times, we'll go through the problem first, and I'll ask them to be patient and do it my way first. Then, I'll let them tell me how THEY would've done it. Sometimes I'll agree with them that I like their way better too, but that it's important to know both ways. When I send them off to do the workbook pages, and even when we're doing the mental math, I don't inhibit their preference unless it is resulting in a lot of wrong answers or roadblocks (which has only happened occasionally). I have a 5th grader who started SM in 2nd grade, and a 3rd grader who started it in 1st. Both of them still have their preferences (which sometimes is and sometimes isn't the preferred model of the HIG), but both of them are also able to quickly tell me "the other way" of figuring it out. And they're both able to use the Singapore way when it becomes necessary. I have also been able to say to them - "do you see why we had to learn to do that other process? Isn't THIS problem easier when you do it that way?"

Thank you! Do you remember if it came wrapped in plastic?

I purchased the full set of First Form Latin a couple of months ago. Though I kept my incoming books well organized as they arrived, complete chaos has since enveloped our house as we started a kitchen renovation last week. My schoolroom is a disaster (it held much of the kitchen's contents as dh tore out the old kitchen), and as I was collecting the Latin materials today to prepare for starting up our school year on Monday, I can't find the quizzes and tests. As I clean through the room and search for this component of the course, I don't even know what it looks like. From the website, I see that it is white with black design. But is it a bound book like the workbook, or spiral bound, or a loose pack of papers that has been wrapped? If anyone can clue me in as to what I'm looking for, I would so appreciate it!

Yes! It's spelled out for you in the Home Instruction Guides. In fact, if you use the HIG, you will likely be demonstrating new concepts with manipulatives before you explain the concept. A typical day's lesson, following the HIG instructions looks like this: 1-Present a problem that can be solved with manipulatives (with Mom guiding the problem solving process), and start to understand the concept. 2-Use the textbook to explain the concept verbally, and with the pictures in the text. 3-Use the textbook to practice the concept together 4-Complete workbook pages independently This is particularly true in the earlier grades. Teaching 4th grade last year with ds, I found that the use of manipulatives as the first step was less common. What makes their approach special, esp. in the early years, is that the textbook explanations are reinforcement for the manipulatives, not the other way around (although you might use the manipulatives later in the learning process as reinforcement as well). Usually, by the time we get to opening the textbook and discussing the concept, my kids already understand the concept pretty well, because of the manipulatives. As you can see, I'm a big fan of the HIG. I know that not everyone uses them, but I strongly recommend them because they show you how to introduce the concept with manipulatives without having to spell it out. Without it, you are more likely to teach from the textbook pictures (which is really the 2nd step of the concrete-pictoral-abstract approach), and the manipulatives will have a different effect. I find the manipulative-based concrete introduction to be extremely helpful.

Thanks. I decided to go with the grade level books. Phew, that was my last book-order for the school year!

I will be teaching 3rd and 5th with Singapore Math next year. We've been using Singapore for several years, but I've never used the Intensive Practice books before (we used the Extra Practice books for review, but they've been pretty redundant, so I've decided to scrap the EP and replace them with the IP). We use the Standards Edition though, and therefore there are some differences in the books (so I hear). I'm trying to decide if I should buy the Intensive Practice books for the grades they're in, or one grade level lower. We have busy days and I don't want to overwhelm my kids with work that is too difficult, but I don't want it to be so easy that it's busywork. Also, I'm wondering how the different topic-order will affect us. I know I can jump around in the IP books, but if the topics build on each other, will that result in doing work that is beyond what we've learned so far? What have others done?

Can I ask a question about this also? All About Reading confuses me. It looks like a parallel program to AAS, but it only has one level: Pre-1. Is that because they simply haven't completed the other levels? Or am I wrong about it being a parallel program - is it actually a precursor to AAS, level 1?