The woman's knowledge is so limited. She can only speak to how her situation has affected her in the past, and how it is affecting her in the moment. She may be able to predict to a certain degree how it will affect her in the future, but even then she is largely speculating. I think her truth is a valuable piece of the puzzle, but it isn't the only piece we should consider. Medical doctors can provide the piece relating to pregnancy risk both for the mother & the fetus. Rape crisis counselors can provide a broader, more objective perspective related specifically to the rape piece of the puzzle. The concerns relating to the interests of the fetus as a prospective child remain. My opinion is only relevant to her specific situation if it is relevant to her. Although I do feel I should be able to discuss ethics globally without it implying that I desire to compel everyone to strict adherence to my code of ethics. Clearly the universal ethical norms in this area are in flux. Just as you reject the ethical principals of those who would dehumanize rape victims and force them to be human incubators at all costs; I reject the ethical principals that completely dehumanize the unborn. ETA: I am against dehumanizing women as well, in case that was unclear. I understand that for pro-choice people the reproductive self-determinism of the woman is of paramount importance. For pro-life people the concern is the human rights (specifically the right to life) of the prospective human. I think both are very important.

I'm sorry, I didn't mean to dance around the question. I don't concern myself much with legal imperatives, so no, I don't think organ donation should be legally required. I do think it should be the legal default, with people opting out instead of opting in. With respect to legal abortion, I am undecided. I don't know what I feel about laws & public policy in this area. I suspect this thread will have great impact in my forming views in this area. The law is a crude vehicle for morality, so I think we should exercise great caution when legislating.

I am one of those people. Doctors determine medical risk. Simple as that. So in the case of your 9 year old girl from Brazil, the significant element is that her doctors felt her pregnancy was high risk. I think it is likely that any pregnancy in a nine year old would be high risk. Obviously people vary in their readiness for pregnancy, but I would think most healthy 18 year olds would be able to safely carry a pregancy, even a twin pregnacy to term. Briefly on the topic of organ donation, yes I feel people are morally obligated to donate organs on death (they aren't using them). In the case of live donation, obligated is too strong a word. I would say that if someone in your close circle of people needs an organ & you could provide you should give it serious consideration.

I definitely agree that risks & effects of pregnancy especially in situations of abuse/rape should be be weighed against the interests of the fetus. I don't necessary agree that a woman is the appropriate person to make the determination. If not her, that who? I don't know, probably her medical providers? I think that a woman's ob/midwife & her counselor would have greater wisdom in this area than either a vulnerable woman or politicians. So no, I don't think that abortion in the case of rape should be illegal. Nor do I think it is appropriate to make a woman prove that she was raped, given the difficulty in doing so. While I have been both raped & pregnant, I have not been pregnant with my rapists child. I don't have direct personal experience in this area. I am not advocating for mistreatment of any pregnant women, least of all rape survivors. I agree that both society & the legal system really suck in this area and major systematic change is necessary. If I were asked directly, "Do I think a woman should carry a rape induced pregnancy to term?". Yes, I think she should. I know that it would be difficult. However if you asked me "How do I feel women with rape conceived pregnancies should be treated, if seeking an abortion?" I would ensure the woman to receive quality medical & mental health care. I would grieve the situation that brought her to that point. I would grieve her decision to abort her pregnancy. And I would zip my lip and treat her with only compassion. I might tell her that I wouldn't abort a pregnancy under similar circumstances, but only if it seemed appropriate to do so. Wow, this is a difficult facet to this topic.

On the topic of rape & incest. I think they are very grave crimes that should be severely treated by the justice system. There is serous need for improvement both in preventing these crimes & in handling them after the fact. However, I don't think it's the fetuses fault that its mother was a victim. Abortion in that situation does nothing to further justice. A previous poster mentioned a woman who chooses to continue a pregnancy under theses circumstances risks becoming legally tethered to her abuser/rapist. That is so wrong, and shouldn't be possible. How a rapist could ever have parental rights is an abomination of the law. In "life of the mother" circumstances, I am pro-choice. The pregnant woman's life has value. If a woman & her medical providers feel that an abortion is the best course of action, I can accept that decision without judgement. I find it difficult to speak for the pro-life movement as a whole, because it seems many posters have had extremely negative experiences that are not in line with pro-life values as far as I see them. On the topic of logical pro-life consistency, personally I am pro-life across the board (mostly). So no death penalty, no war, no genocide/eugenics. I say mostly because I do see some nuance. I agree that the death penalty doesn't have anything to do with abortion, but it does have to do with the "life" part of pro-life. I am against both for similar reasons. Everyone's life should have value.

I assumed as much about pro-choice people. Just out of curiosity, what do we call someone who IS pro-abortion. Pro-life people value the lives of fetuses, pro-choice people value reproductive choices for women. A significant number of people advocate for abortion because a pregnancy will "screw up your life". Often girls/women are pressured into abortions by their families or partners. What do we call their stance?

Whose patient is the fetus? As far as I understand it, the doctor/midwife is the care provider for both the mother & the fetus. I think that is part of why I view pregnancy as inherently vulnerable. Your body is inhabited by another being. The pregnant woman's and the fetus's needs, medical care, rights & lives are intertwined. It is difficult to talk about one without also discussing the other.

Wow Mercy. I understand full well what those women intend to do. Very few of them are monsters who would suffocate a baby because it became inconvenient. I assure you my compassion for pregnant women, does not blind me to the reality of abortion. Let's face it abortion does kill fetuses. But, but, but, here is where the nuance comes in. The fetus's life has value, but so do women, so do babies who have been born, so do children. We must be careful not to save the unborn at the expense of women & children. If we want to prevent abortion, we must work to prevent desperation. To do otherwise is like trying to prevent suicide, without concerning oneself with depression.

Yes. . . I didn't reply to Mercy because she said she didn't have time to participate in a discussion and because I didn't want to monopolize the thread. But yes. . . I saw what she did. "Vulnerable people" clearly referenced to pregnant women seeking abortions. I do agree that we also shouldn't mistreat children, but that wasn't what I was talking about. I was saying why I am against attacking women who are seeking an abortion. I could see where a woman might be dissuaded from getting an abortion that day by "at all costs" style treatment. But I question whether she went somewhere else to get her abortion. Also as a previous poster said . . . "where are these children now?" Alive. Wonderful. Life isn't the end all be all of ethics, even pro-life ethics. A child should be more than alive, it should thrive. The difficulty in hard choices is always in acting in situation where both options are bad. The decision isn't always abortion or picturesque adoption, abortion or happy baby being raised by happy parents. These choices are easier (not easy, easier). But for a pro-life person: abortion or abused crack baby, abortion or dead mother, abortion or extreme unrelenting poverty & neglect. These choices are heart breakingly difficult. I don't know what the equivalent is for a pro-choice person.

I agree with you.

DUDE . . . I am sooo not pro-choice. I am morally against abortions. However, I feel the best way to prevent them is to: decrease unwanted pregnancy, and increase resources for pregnant women & new mothers who choose to raise their babies. However I am not advocating that women choose abortion. My focus is on my ethical responsibility to all human life, born & unborn. I don't have a position on the legality of abortion services. I'm undecided. I think it is unlikely for them to be made illegal. I understand many pro-life people chose to work in the direction. I neither agree nor disagree with them, as long as they aren't also marginalizing women. I also regularly in these discussions hear pro-life people say they are pro-choice as a flip way of appropriating the title of the other side. I am pro-keeping your legs shut, nonsense. I wanted to be respectful of pro-choice people.

I understand that people picket in front of abortion clinics & harass people choosing to use their services. I don't support that behavior for two reasons: 1. I don't think it helps prevent abortions. I think it just hurts pregnant women & angers pro-choices people. 2. It is wrong to mistreat people, especially those who are already vulnerable. As far as killing medical providers. That is illegal, immoral & not condoned by most society or most pro-life people. It isn't fair to paint an entire movement by their most extreme members. If people in their zeal to save fetuses, are devaluing the lives of people such as women or medical providers, this is both against my pro-life morals and stupid. I don't think it is reasonable to expect me as a pro-life person to argue for greater access to services that are antithetical to my values. I think that is an appropriate role for the pro-choice movement.

Anti-choice is neither accurate (for me, maybe for some), nor charitable. In ideal magical fantasy land . . . everyone would enter in to loving, responsible sexual relationships their chosen method of contraception never fails. There would be no infertility or miscarriage or still birth. Pregnancies and births would all be healthy & joyous. All children would be born into perfect little happy families where everything is rainbows & unicorns. And yes in my ideal world there would be no abortion. Our world is far from that world. I do want women to have choices. I want them to be able to chose the circumstances under which they have sex. I want them to be able to chose whether or not to get pregnant. I want them to be free to choose to raise their child is that is what they would like to do. On the issue of abortion in the real world, yes, I am against it. I don't understand what you me by "deny a pregnant woman access to terminations." I thought medical providers terminated pregnancies. Isn't that what abortions are, terminating pregnancies? As far as I know, abortions are available. Perhaps they are not as accessible or affordable as the pro-choice would prefer? I don't know. . . I understand why you are calling me anti-choice. I don't think it furthers the dialogue. I use your preferred descriptor instead of "anti-life". But I will certainly let that side debate go. It isn't horribly offensive or anything. I'm sorry that you loathe my rhetoric. Anything specific that would be helpful to you? I am okay with using fetus instead of baby for example. I certainly do not defend deception. (And I did call out the "baby murderer" rhetoric as well).

I don't understand why discussions about abortion always become so inflammatory. Why talk about "murdering tiny children" or calling people "anti-choice"? Honestly, I am extremely pro-life myself, but I fail to understand why people think it is either ethical or effective to lie, to alienate the other side with shocking language/picture whatever, or to dehumanize the pregnant women. IMO the best way, both in terms of valuing human life & in terms of likely efficacy would be to prevent as many unwanted pregnancies as possible in the first place. I advocate for quality sexual education and affordable & available contraception to prevent unwanted pregnancy. I think people who find themselves unexpectedly pregnant should not feel pushed into abortions by their families or their personal circumstances. Provide quality prenatal care for all women. Provide services to people who need them. I think there are many ideas that would make a better world for both sides of the debate.

http://www.amazon.com/Wipe-Clean-Workbooks-Kindergarten-Scholastic/dp/0545903262/ref=pd_sim_14_16?ie=UTF8&dpID=51-ZQFaC7bL&dpSrc=sims&preST=_AC_UL160_SR120%2C160_&refRID=1C57P8YACV0M8SEVC1JR Or maybe http://www.amazon.com/Wipe-Clean-Activity-Workbook-Step/dp/0312502141/ref=pd_sim_14_7?ie=UTF8&dpID=61d7oWJvxHL&dpSrc=sims&preST=_AC_UL160_SR137%2C160_&refRID=1HWHF574Y9B7BMX4HZHV

Generally we prefer our vegetables fresh or frozen. I do buy some things canned. We go through tons of canned beans, although I consider them "protein" not vegetable. We use a lot of canned tomatoes as well. Olives & pickled things are always canned. I do sometimes buy canned beets or three bean salad. We join a CSA so that provides us with fresh, organic, locally grown produce in the summer & fall. We supplement lightly with fresh/frozen. What I buy fresh versus frozen is complicated. We eat a lot of raw vegetables, those are almost always bough fresh. Garlic, ginger, basil, cilantro always fresh, sometimes other herbs as well. Root vegetables (potatoes, onions, beets, carrots) always fresh. Usually frozen: peas, greens, green beans, stirfry blends, broccoli, cauliflower. Most other things go back & forth based on seasons.

I allow them to jump on our furniture at home. When they are rough housing I send them to the queen sized bed in my room. They also jump between beds in the upstairs bedroom. It's a tiny room with 3 beds one of them lofted, so lots of fun. I do allow a little jumping on the futon in the living room, but if it becomes a thing I redirect them to our mini trampoline or the queen sized bed. This is because they tend to konk their heads on the wooden frame. I don't think it has affected the life of our furniture, but we don't have couches. At other peoples houses, I don't allow jumping on the furniture. I understand that (most?) people would prefer they didn't so I default to that rule away from home. I do allow them to behave like little boys on the floor though. Even that seems to bother some people, and I don't really understand why.

I second the undercover mama tanks. I wear them daily. Another thing I do sometimes is wear a crossover style shirt with a halftee underneath. I nurse in public without a cover so I really like my clothes to cover me well when nursing. I find "nursing" tops expose more breast and are more difficult to maneuver one handed, than the undercover mama or half tee options. As far as nursing bras, I go to a local lactation store and try on a ton and then take home the ones that I like best.

I'm an adult female. I voted "No". Firstly, if a child can normally be left home alone, it is fine to leave the child during school hours. Learning doesn't need to be confined to the hours of 8-3. Also I think it is entirely appropriate for a older student to be expected to study independently while the parent is out of the house, as long as the parent is in general keeping the student accountable.

Our family love, love, loves the Nabi. Ours has fallen down stairs & been thrown by toddlers and hasn't broken. It is a basic android tablet with a children's interface over top. In "mommy mode" it is exactly like all our other android devices.

I am 30 & female, but this is definitely me. October through January I feel like I am being crushed by my mounting to-do list. It makes me feel like a failure as a person. I am unreachable by phone, don't use social media etc. I really only email, and this time of year even then it is weeks to reply to a non-urgent email. I realize this may feel inconsiderate. I see both sides. I understand how you feel. But busy is genuinely accurate. Often emails I fail to respond to in a timely manner require conferring with my husband. My email time is almost always when my husband is unavailable, so I end up not responding. Yeah . . . another thing to feel guilty about.

I don't think your experience is typical. I have had three c-sections at 3 year intervals, most recently 8 weeks ago like you. I always heal very quickly: discharged from hospital next day, no pain a week out. My experience isn't typical either I'm sure. I doubt your trouble has anything to do with it being a third c-section. I would guess that the adhesions and cellulitis are what is stalling your healing. Everyone is different and all recoveries are different. I think if you hang in there and rest when you feel pain you should heal. When is anyone's guess. Sorry, you truly have my sympathies. Perhaps think back to your previous c-sections. What helped you then? For me babying my abs while walking as much as possible helped. Sitting & resting for too long made me sore & crampy. YMMV :grouphug:

I don't feel like I "choose". My name was A B C D (where C represents my mother's maiden name, and D represents my father's last name). My mother squished the two last names together into one ridiculous last name with two capitol letters and 13 total letters. This was the last name I used until my teens. In my teens, I saw my birth certificate. Aparently the state wouldn't let her use that name so legally I had two last names w/ a space. That the the form, I have been using since. My brother still uses the mushed up version. I HATE my last name. In computer systems, is my last name CD, C-D, C, D, something else? My husband has a nice 4 letter normal last name. I was seriously all for changing it, but I didn't. . . I don't feel like I chose not to change my name. I wanted to, but not (apparently) enough to actually do it. I perceive it as an expensive, complicated and inexact process. That's probably not true. Socially I use my husbands last name, I doubt anyone knows I didn't change it. Only on things that need my "real" name do I still use the stupid last name. Some day I hope to get around to changing it.

That was fascinating. My parents who graduated in the early 70s took a lot more math than that. My Dad had calculus. My math phobic mother had 2 years algebra & 1 year geometry. I wonder why they required 4 units English when they required only 1 unit math--seems unbalanced.

I hope I can be of help. My brother had it, and was also a serious soccer player. I know he needed physical therapy & was taking prescription muscle relaxants routinely. His activity was restricted for a few brief periods when it was really bad. He had various braces. I wouldn't take the wait and see approach with an athlete, they push through the pain and can get serious injuries. I don't know what was done to diagnose it. I'm just the sister so I'm hardly an expert.