PIE!
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Posts posted by PIE!
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This description and its terms (esp. slaughter) in relation to Christ are not part of my (eastern, since you said "western") Orthodox faith. It's difficult to read that people give up the faith based in large part on a repulsion for this sacrificial based atonement (a western construct) when, from the beginning days of Christianity (an eastern construct), our church has always taught that he God-man, Jesus, CHOSE to die not to atone for the sins of others, but to conquer death. I asked a priest "Why did Jesus have to DIE?" one time and he said "to conquer death." It's really not that hard to understand -- if something is dead and comes back to life, life wins and death loses. Does that happen in the natural? No. In the Christian faith, it was a miracle wrought by God so that we too could have life because death was overcome.
I would lay down my life for my child, for someone I loved. You would, too, I imagine, right? If a car was careening toward your child and you could push your child out of the way, knowing death will result for you but life for him, wouldn't you do it? Of course you would. Well, instead of waving a non-existent magic wand and saying "abracadabra" to conquer death, Christ used LIFE to conquer it -- willingly, just like you would for your child. In that way, yes, he "sacrificed" his life but that's different than the description here.
I am not clever or smart enough to argue this through with you and I have no intention of doing so (come ask about it in the Exploring Orthodoxy social group if you -- or anyone -- would like and maybe collectively we can attempt to describe the position of the ancient Orthodox church in this), but I did want to state that Christ came to conquer death, that's why He died willingly. Forgiveness of sins once for all through His work on the cross is NOT original Christianity. Forgiveness of sins is of course available to us, but it's not once for all through Christ's death. Since we still sin, we must choose to live a lifestyle of repentance that includes the things prescribed by the Church through Christ's teaching to the apostles (confession and absolution). In that way, our faith affects both this life (humility, repentance) as well as the life to come (eternal life).
ETA -- As for the other "weird" stuff in the Bible that drives people away from the Christian faith, I would say that this is why our faith is not based on the written text of a book. That book is part of our faith, but what it says has to line up with what the church teaches in its Holy Tradition about the Trinitarian God. The Scriptures are treasured, they're treated with respect in our services, we stand when they're read (esp. the Gospels), we don't leave our Bibles on the floor or set coffee cups on them, etc., but if something in the written words seems "off," then something about how it's written or understood is off. Again, if anyone wants to discuss this, please feel free to come to the EO social group to do so.
Not EO either, but this is almost exactly what I believe. Thank you for expressing it. Maybe I just don't get into enough discussions of Christian theology, but I was under the impression that this was a fairly universal view of Christ's sacrifice. Until this thread I'd never heard of God killing Jesus, but always Jesus conquering death through willingly giving up his own life.
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I've never understood why the Song of Solomon made it into the Bible. What Solomon and his lady thought of each other is their own business. IMO it did not need publication and cannonization.
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I'd eat it, but if I was answering the question on a food handlers test I would say that I would throw it away.
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Quick question--what is this belief based on (Bible verses, messages from a Prophet, etc.)??
All of the above. There are verses here or there from the Bible (there isn't much there on the topic, though I haven't seen anything in the Bible that contradicts this), but most of the details are found in modern LDS scripture like the Book of Mormon, The Doctrine and Covenants, and the Pearl of Great Price, often expounded on by prophets. Would you like specific references, or is that all you were asking?
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About Abraham. How could he know that it was truly God telling him to to follow those outrageous and evil instructions? Just what sort of résumé / magic trick combo would you require before slitting your son's throat and setting him on fire. I know, times were different. Child sacrifice was commonplace, so let's water it down to better relate to the softness of modern times.
From inside the story Abraham didn't have the benefit of a narrator telling him who was who. He would have had to rely on the credentials that gods and people placed before him. Think about what kind of performance someone would have to deliver to make you believe that they are a god? Presumably the requirements would go up for you to be convinced that he is the one and only God. Even then, how convinced should you reasonably be? If said performer told you that he was God and that it was God's will for you to beat your well behaving child would you review the credentials one more time? It might be time to consider your own credentials.
I'm pretty sure most of us would go directly from "Neat trick- Where'd you learn that?" to "I must be dreaming or going mad." There is simply no room for a good man to entertain the notion of killing for God or what could quite possibly be a figment of his imagination.
There are limits to which all good people should trust their own judgement. A good man, if he is sane, will denounce his sanity before following directions to kill an innocent, unthreatening person. There is no cause for the necessary level of certainty.
Why is "believing" a virtue anyway? That's a suspicious claim, now isn't it?
What qualities were being tested here, and are they the qualities of a good man? Loyalty, Obedience, even Courage are illustrated, but evil is equally aided by these traits. What specifically made Abraham's act admirable? Is it that he believed in the real God, and not some lame deity who lives in a sculpture? What virtue lead him to believe the right one, and how do I get that? Will I believe the right gods and people if I'm pure of heart? If so, I'm not going to believe the one telling me to kill my children.
So God walked with Abraham. Abraham knew God the way he knew his own father or dear friend with the added benefit that God was magic. Does that make it right for Abraham to beat his child for Him, or break his legs, or cut his throat? To my dear friends, no matter what we've been through or how thoroughly you've impressed me, if you ever suggest that I hurt a child I will dismiss you. If I discover that you have tried to coerce a credulous man to hurt a child on your behalf I will dismiss you.
The ultimate problem with God and Abraham is the virtue God was looking for in a servant. He wasn't looking for a good, kind, compassionate man. He wanted a blindly obedient servant who would kill children at his command.
I will not be that servant, and that beast, (even if he is real) will not be my god.
Atonement? As if a god sacrificing his son to himself to save us from himself, because he couldn't otherwise control himself would work. There is simply no reason to imagine such a dramatic performance would be necessary or would have any affect on anything.
I'm not quite sure here if you are asking questions that you want answered, or if you are asking questions because you feel they further your argument. We obviously are going to disagree here. I believe Abraham knew God so well he knew He wouldn't ask for anything that wasn't right. I know I'm not going to convince you (that was never my intent), and I don't think any explanation I give you would even satisfy you as to why I could hold my beliefs. So I think I'm just going to leave this part of the conversation alone.
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I see Forget-me-not beat me to it. :) I even almost posted those same links at the end of what I wrote.
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Then how do the LDS explain why a loving God would create the Earth and all the people if he knew they would be sinful and require atonement?
It's actually a little hard for me to explain this, because I have a hard time seeing a better alternative. I'm not being snarky or anything. It's just often hard to look at something from a point of view very different from your own. And I'm not trying to debate here AT ALL. Just answering the above question.
I'll briefly explain as best I can. There are other LDS members on these boards who would do a better job (and I think they have if you feel like doing a forum search).
Anyway, according to LDS belief, we all lived in Heaven with our Heavenly Father as His spirit children. As children, we grew (metaphorically, I don't know about spiritual mass and whether or not it increases or decreases ;)) and progressed as far as we could in His presence. Sort of like how there is only so much our kids can learn from home, and how they eventually need to head out on their own to learn things for themselves. God presented us with a plan where He would make earth, and send us here to learn for ourselves how to make choices, without Him right there. We wouldn't even remember Him. He knew we wouldn't be perfect (except for one of His sons). And no unclean thing can enter the Kingdom of God. So he told us that even though we would mess up, He loved us so much he would prepare a way for us to return. He would send a mediator, a savior, one who would not sin and therefore could act in that capacity. One who was also half god and half mortal, so he could die, but wouldn't have to until he willingly gave his life. One who could break the bonds of death, both mortal death (the death of our bodies) and spiritual death (being separated from our Heavenly Father due to our sins). Christ volunteered. He was the only one who could fulfill that sort of mission. Satan volunteered too, but he didn't want to follow God's plan, but set up his own where he got all power and glory, and didn't let us use our agency. He was cast out.
Adam and Eve went to the Garden of Eden. Them partaking of the fruit was part of the plan. We were all born on this world, temporarily forgetting our life before, so we could learn to use our agency. To an LDS person, a world where we couldn't sin if we chose to defeats the purpose of any earth at all.
I kind of rambled a bit. Does that answer your question? I'm not trying to tell anyone what to believe or anything, just explain what I believe as best I can.
I found something more official and better worded here. It's an address to the church members from about 20 years ago. The first half explains our beliefs in the matter. The second half is more about how it applies to members of the church.
I'm not trying to hijack this thread though. If my answer doesn't suffice, maybe start a spin off thread?
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I haven't read all the responses, but I'll go ahead and give my view. In the LDS (Mormon) faith we believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly. We believe that many parts have been changed or lost over the thousands of years of transcription and translation. One of our prophets went through parts of the Bible and retranslated them. The whole deal with Lot happened a bit differently in that version. Also Pharoah hardened his own heart. I read the Bible with the retranslation in the footnotes, so I see both versions.
The whole Bible didn't get retranslated, and there are a few spots I wonder about. But I deal with some of the weird stuff with the belief that we don't always have the whole story, and things have been lost or changed over time. Other things you mentioned (like Abraham and Isaac) I don't find weird. God didn't, in the end, make Abraham sacrifice Isaac, but through his test Abraham and Isaac could learn in a very personal way about the atonement.
Oh, and on that note, I don't hold the common view of the Trinity. I believe Christ is the son of God, not God the Father. But, like others I read here, I believe Christ willingly atoned. We actually believe he volunteered before the earth was even made. It wasn't forced on him. So the story of Abraham and Isaac is a pretty good Type of things to come.
I realize most Christians here disagree with me, but as a believer who has read the entire Bible through a few times, I thought I'd share my own view.
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I'm on week 8. I did day 1 Monday, and skipped day 2 because the week was crazy. But today is day 3 and I just got back from my 1st 5K! It took me 38 minutes and I came in 39th out of 50. Ds(8) came in 37th. I only took a short 20 second break at the half-way water table, but otherwise jogged the whole way. And I even made a new friend who has also been doing couch to 5k this summer. :)
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Yes, but it took A LOT longer than 90 days. :)
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Peas
I have never liked them. Most foods I like, or can at least tolerate. But my poor pea-loving kids rarely get their favorite veggie because I just can't stand them.
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I was wondering that too. I'll just report here for now. I just did week 8 day 1. :)
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When we lived in places where it needed watering or it would die, we watered. But now we live somewhere where we don't even have a hose hook up, let alone sprinklers. It rains several times a week, so there is no reason to.
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Watching this because my big three will be in school full time this year, and my preschooler will be gone three half days a week. I think my toddler will love having me to himself for a year.
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Week 7 day 3 done! :)
Me too!
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Redoing week 4, and it is still hard! I have spent 2 weeks on every week, but it is taking me so long to get stronger. It is quite frustrating. Maybe its my age (49) because I was in decent shape before starting, and I used to jog a few years back. I am thin so I don't know what is going on.
:grouphug:
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Sounds good :)
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One more question now. I've been looking through ds's Wolf book, and some of the new requirements were things he did in the old book. Does he need to do them again to get the new belt loops? Or, for example, did the song he sang with his den and already passed off count for this too? Does he need to start a new collection, or does the collection he already showed his old den count? Most of these are little things that would be easy to redo, but just in case we come across something more difficult it'd be good to know officially what counts.
Thanks!
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Week 7 Day 2 done. :)
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Week 7 day 1 done. Kind of. Hardest day yet! Had a very tough time today and I couldn't do the 25 minute jog all at one time. I couldn't even do 22 min like I did Friday! After 15 minutes of running, I felt ready to quit. Okay, I actually wanted to quit earlier than that! I walked for two minutes and then jogged the next 10. Breathing super hard. This whole week is the same I think, so I'll try it as day 2 on Wednesday. Glad I got out this morning, but disappointed I had such a hard time.
:grouphug:
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W7 D1 done. I actually jogged 26 minutes before I checked my timer. My toes are starting to get tingly though. I think it's time to buy some real running shoes. I wanted to make sure I'd stick with this before spending any money.
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Wow! I'm impressed. I'm looking into 5ks for the fall, but I'd never even think of trying that soon. Good for you!
I doubt I'll run the whole thing. :) It'll be my workout for that week, which I believe is a 28 minute jog. Finishing is the goal. But I am excited to give it a try. I haven't entered a race since elementary school.
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Yes that's hot. But people here complain when it's in the 80s. I even read a newspaper article a couple of days ago about some city workers "braving the heat" in 80 degree weather.
I have lived in the Caribbean before though, and that humid heat is terrible.
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We almost always bring a big bowl of mixed chopped fruit. (Berries, bananas, melon, kiwi, grapes, or whatever else looks good at the store.)
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Airline miles?
in The Chat Board
Posted
We recently moved across the country from family. It would take us 3-4 days to drive to see them, so we now need to start navigating the world of airline discounts.
Are airline miles really useful? If so, what's the best way to get them?
I did a few google searches, and it looks like there are several credit cards with airline points. Would it be a good idea to get one, use it for all our regular shopping, and pay the balance every month? (We're good at budgeting, no worries about getting into debt from something like this). If so, what should I look for? Obviously no annual fee, but is there anything else to watch for when picking a good one?
Or is there a better way to save money on airfare?