We did it the opposite way - LOL! The first time through we read the play and discussed anything that was confusing. That year my sons were in 8th and 5th, so we read them out loud and discussed as we went. (Think of Nan's descriptions of doing literature when she had two sons at home.) ETA: I used WEM to help me think through the discussions. I concentrated on the novel questions more than the play questions (especially with them). Anyway, after reading and discussing we would watch the play (usually from the library) and not have to stop it unless someone just couldn't contain a comment - LOL! ps - I'm not saying this process really helped my DS's fall in love with plays - LOL! Although, my older DS was able to enjoy the ancient Greek plays his 9th grade year, even though we didn't watch any on DVD.

Free reading is "free" - he can read *whatever* he wants! I thought I'd pipe in and say I think the SOTW series is great for middle schoolers who haven't had classical-style history before. (Even my now-7th grader who *has* read SOTW before is still getting a lot out of it!) I did the same thing when I took my now-10th grader out of school mid-way through his 5th grade year, and I have absolutely no regrets! Here's to a great year!

What I did for my oldest, since he had not had SOTW in 1st-4th grades, was use the "white" Kingfisher as an introduction to the SOTW chapter. (I guess you could say the SOTW-AG was my spine - LOL! - since I usually found the corresponding KIHW pages in there. Be careful, though, there are a few errors.) So, each week he started by outlining from the "white" Kingfisher, copied the map from Kingfisher (and the timeline from the "red" Kingfisher), then read the SOTW story or stories, wrote summaries of those, then did any extra reading from the library. He enjoyed it, and he remembers so much. He's doing World History this year in 10th grade, and it is *all* review! I guess what I'm saying is that you needn't choose just *one* source. The Kingfisher served it's purpose, as did SOTW. And, yes, there was overlap - but it's always good to have more than one source in history. hth! Rhonda

IME the strength of R&S is that it really breaks down all the various ways to develop a paragraph (though you have to wait til the 7th grade book to get to most of them - LOL!). The weakness is that there might not be enough modeling and practice for your student. So, pairing it with the recommendations to outline and re-write in WTM are perfect. Although my older DS did just fine with R&S & WTM by themselves, I added IEW with my younger DS, and it did add a dimension of *something* that was missing for him. The ability to take someone else's writing and make it *his* instead of re-writing it word-for-word, I guess? But, IEW doesn't teach the different methods of paragraph development, so we are still covering those lessons in R&S. (We skip some of the others.) My other caveat of recommending R&S is that I think it works best if you have the time to sit with your child (at least some times) and read through the paragraphs he's outlining and notice which sentence is the topic sentence and how the paragraph is being developed - things like that. It really makes the lessons seem relevant, and helps make the outlining much, much easier.

Janice, I don't know if you've been reading my pm's to others, or if you just can read between my lines so well - LOL! But Thank you, once again, for your wonderful ability to put into words what I'm feeling when even I am finding it hard to label the angst I feel, and offer me your heart-felt empathy. More than words to you, girl! Growing as a person....that has been the topic of conversation around our house a lot lately. Not necessarily academically, either. (And not just the kids!) In "talking" this out over the last few days, I think I've decided my boys are not cut out for independent learning. The "read this by yourself and take notes and then we'll discuss it" method of homeschool. There's just too little accountability; and then they invariably have small misunderstandings that grow into big misunderstandings until it seems they've misunderstood some huge concept and suddenly the discussion is more of a lecture - and a very negative one at that! And then that affects our whole relationship, and our whole day, and everyone else in the whole house. Yet, if we're going to homeschool "at home", that's what it will take because I don't have time to teach 3 kids without some classes being independent. So, I think we're going to have to go with outside classes or school next year. (Heck, I would say "after Christmas" if I thought I were organized enough and could find the right classes!) And, I realize that maybe the world hasn't ended - but I don't look forward to getting up in the morning. Last year both the boys studied Ancients, and it's true they had separate history and literature assignments. But, there was still so much overlap because they *were* studying basically the same people and events and books, and even their science correlated. We were able to study art together and watch movies together. There was "we" time, and the family was integrated - we connected to each other through-out the day. We all looked forward to the day. But now, even if one boy watches the other's science experiment, or a movie or what-not - it doesn't contribute to his day. (It just makes the day longer - ugh!) There is no, "Oh, yeah - I loved *this* part," or "I was so glad when so-and-so finally got it..." in history or about a book in the same way that they talk about video games. They used to talk about school-related "stuff" over lunch and dinner, and it was cool. Now we just happen to co-exist in the same house. But...as far as solutions...I think I've decided I will tweak the World History program to my standards for this year, and do some serious searching for some sort of school situation for my DS for next year. First, because he needs someone besides me for a teacher. Someone who inspires him - and yet holds him accountable with definite test dates, etc. (yes, even when his allergies are acting up or he didn't sleep well!) I guess that sounds hard-nosed, which I'm a wimp-to-the-max at home, but you know - real life is coming, and I see this child beginning to enjoy being at home a little "too much." I worry about every negative stereotype of homeschooling being fulfilled in my DS - LOL! And, yes, I feel horribly guilty when I look at all the work I assigned for my oldest in 7th grade and compare it to what I'm having my current 7th grader do!!! (Shh! don't tell - LOL!) I think the older son is the better for it, to tell the truth, but yes - I can relax a bit mostly because I am more effective as a teacher. I know that path now, so I know what's really important (to me) and what can be glossed over. So it all evens out in the end. My younger ds (the non-writer) now writes the most entertaining science reports EVER! And, here I thought he would *never* be able to write a decent paragraph, but it all happened so suddenly - and with no tears this time around - Wow! Behind my back, I've been holding out on you the thought of actually going back to work. We know a head-master of one of the Christian schools in the area, and he has offered to help me find a job teaching music at a Christian school (there are many in the area). I have a Music Ed degree, and I did enjoy teaching Elementary Music; so the thought isn't completely unattractive. But I hate to do it "just because" I'd really like for oldest DS to go to a Christian school, and this is really the only way we can afford it. I worry about my 7th grader - all the cool stuff the older one has had that he won't get to do! But, you're right. They are different kids completely, and *I* am a different person when they are facing "the big things that boys face". And, if he does go to school, he will learn things there the older one didn't. I still feel guilty just considering the possibility. So, I appreciate your laundry analogy. He's really not the "deep thinker". (I was telling someone else my oldest would really have loved TOG's depth, but not so the younger one.) He'll be fine as long as his academic clothes get washed, you know? LOLOL!!! (And I'm trying to convince myself that if he - the 7th grader - does go to school maybe we'll keep doing Read-Alouds like the Iliad and stuff we have here on audio book....But, Eeeehhh...that might be a stretch, huh? At least I have a well-stocked bookshelf for my old age - LOL! I've always wondered what happened to old WTM'ers like PamSFSOM and Kpzz and others whose posts I once had practically memorized. Maybe I'll find out - LOL!) So...I don't know what will happen. I guess next year is all in God's hands. I know there are things that I do really like about what my kids are doing this year, so I will try to focus on those for now, change what I feel I must, and start anticipating a new direction for our family - whether that's school for the oldest, or school for all of us. I'm sorry this is a little choppy - I'm being intentionally vague about some things. But, maybe putting this out there will be good therapy for me, and help someone else, too - who knows? Thanks, Janice - you're a gem! PS - TTC Art of Teaching looks like it would be worth it just for the info on how to make up exams and how to survive the challenges of teaching (especially not taking conflicts personally - this is the biggest downfall of our homeschool!)

Goodness, I wish I could post this anonymously. :blushing: A very long story short: For reasons that don't matter now, I chose a pre-planned curriculum this year after doing all the planning myself, using mostly WTM, for the past 5 years. My 7th grader is now studying 1600-1850 (he skipped MiddleAges/Renaissance to be ready for Ancients in 9th), and my 10th grader is studying World history. Right now I don't see how we can ever go back to having history "all together" again - and I hate that. I feel like I have destroyed everything that we used to really enjoy about homeschool - and having the boys studying different things has greatly lengthened my days. So, the past two days I've been looking at Biblioplan trying to think of a way to meld my 7th grader and my 10th grader back together. The only way I can think of is to break completely from what we are doing, and begin a shortened Middle Ages/Renaissance for the rest of the year, flying by the seat of my pants. But I wonder if it's truly worth it? (Really, I don't think my kids care. Well....I think my 7th grader would care once we got back to everything he's already studied this year, iykwim.) There's a part of me that says maybe it's time for my oldest to go to mostly online classes (or maybe even to school!). He certainly tries harder and does better in his online classes than in any of his "mom" or "video" classes, even though the online classes are more demanding. I *could* start looking for something like AP US History and an American Lit class for next year, and then he could take Government and Economics in 12th grade (paired with ?? for English). So, I guess I'm just tired of listening to me argue with myself about this - LOL! Is it time to cut the apron strings? What would you do? :bigear:

:iagree: Thanks for all the input, ladies! Great food for thought.

I remember reading The Sun Also Rises, but after looking at Wikipedia's plot synopsis there was obviously a lot I didn't pick up on. :001_huh: I don't remember The Old Man and the Sea, or For Whom the Bell Tolls, but they both sound familiar. Anyway, just wondering. Hemingway's not listed on the WTM List, and after reading Wikipedia it seems he isn't the undisputed all-American author my AP English teacher made him out to be. :lol:

Hey, Amy - you are right! Anything that is functioning as a "noun" in the sentence (subject, DO, IO, Object of a preposition) is a substantive - whether it is a single word, a phrase, or a clause. And, yes, R&S-7 is one hard, tough book!!! It is harder, grammar-wise (IMO) than the 8th grade book. So, take it SLOWLY!! And, do every review available. The oral reviews in the Teacher's Book, and the Reviews at the end of the Lessons as well. We did Lesson 29 today, and we'll be re-doing it tomorrow because I know it just didn't quite click as well as it needed to. One good thing about R&S is there are *always* enough problems to save some for another day. ;) Today I even contemplated having my 10th-grader re-do R&S-7 'cause I guarantee you he doesn't remember half of it! LOL! I really wish I hadn't worried about trying to finish it in one year with him.

thanks!

About writing: I don't feel qualified to answer that question, because I had such a great writing teacher in AP English and I draw very heavily from that experience in teaching writing. I used R&S exclusively in teaching my oldest up through R&S-8, and it taught him well. I'm now using a combination of R&S with IEW with my younger DS, and loving the mixture of the two. I do think IEW really reached my younger DS in a way that R&S alone would not have, as he is not as naturally-bent toward writing as my older DS. I know that you are using SL right now, and I just wanted to say that we used SL for awhile, too. Right now I'm actually using MFW, and I'm still using the WTM Literature exactly as before. And, really, I'm still doing the history skills (I do tweak MFW a bit): read, outline once a week or so, work with maps & timelines, write reports. Those skills can be done no matter what curriculum you're using (as long as the reading isn't too overdone). Blessings! ETA: Here's a link to my old 7th-grade "pure" WTM schedule.

I'm sorry I haven't responded back - I'm not on the board every day. If I were going to add in writing, what I would do is add in writing assignments to history and literature, and maybe science. I would re-use the assignment structures given in the Writer's Workshop class for those assignments. So, I'm just guessing here ~ but if the class covers how to write a descriptive paragraph, then have your DS write a descriptive paragraph in literature (he could describe a character or a setting or an item which became symbolic of the theme). On another day, he could describe something in science. But, I would have him re-use whatever techniques he learned in the Writer's Workshop class in writing those cross-curricular assignments. That practice will make it seem easy, and that will build confidence. (Although, if your DS already knows how to structures paragraphs and essays well, then you might want to ask about moving him into the Lost Tools class. I don't think it's too late. You might try talking to the Lost Tools teacher to see what her opinion is on the best fit for your DS, too.)

Aaahhh... I was just thinking about my own life changes and reminiscing (pardon my spelling?) about your Hobbit video this week, and this post brings it back to mind as well! I guess all of life is about finding that elusive perfect "spot" and then losing it for something better, huh? No answers, here. Just commiseration... It's hard enough to make sure Algebra II and Chemistry happen! :lol: And, yes, it would be nice to have some free-time to be inspired! I just wanted to tell you that right after I read through that thread a couple of months ago, and noticed your quote above, my 5yo daughter had picked out a book from the library obviously aimed at Mr. Houseman - Pumpkinhead, by Eric Rohmann. The title character is, in fact, a boy born with a pumpkin for a head. His pumpkin head is stolen and travels the world, only to be serendipitously returned to his mother. He decides in the end he wouldn't have any other type of head BUT a pumpkin-head. I thought that was an interesting take on things considering the side-thought in that thread about meeting your children where they are (IOW, classical education not looking the same for all children - some were using videos as the main medium rather than books, for example). ****************************** Hey, Janice: You know, it's funny, but when I was a new homeschooler (and 30-something instead of 40-something and could still pull an all-nighter without it affecting the next day - LOL!), I would be so gung-ho after reading through a 50-page thread like that. Sadly, it just doesn't affect me the same way today. (Segue-way into David Bowie's Ch-ch-ch-ch-Changes) So...maybe my way of dealing with change is to put on some 80's music. (Or, geez, maybe David Bowie was 70's music that I just listened to in the 80's, I don't know.) Clean the house like crazy, singing at the top of my lungs. Oh, yeah - Pat Benatar's got nothin' on me, baby... Ok - I think I'm back on board break, now. ;)

I have not used that exact class, so I hesitate to answer. My older DS has taken the Latin I "Camp" and Latin II from Memoria Press in the past, and has excelled. I think their program is a wonderful blending of academic excellence and grace. Although, I admit it requires parental supervision. ;) This year the same DS is in 10th grade, and he is doing Latin 3 and the Lost Tools of Writing I class. It, too, is starting slowly. And, it feels even slower since we started our "at home" classes in August, and Memoria Press didn't start their classes until after Labor Day. BUT - I did the IEW SWI-C with my DS last year and it, too, was very slow at the beginning. I guess my thought is that, especially with a man-child who doesn't really like writing, slower is probably best. My own DS says he can see where the Lost Tools teacher is headed, and that it's going to get very voluminous, very quickly. Maybe the Writer's Workshop class is the same? After all, they just had the third class today! I have been looking forward to putting my now-7th grader into the Writer's Workshop class when he's in 9th grade. The teacher's resume on the MP website says he's been teaching writing for 20 years. Though some of that may have been teaching future-teachers "how to teach writing", I don't see any reason to doubt his qualifications at all. HTH!

Brindee, I suspect that my having mentioned signing my DS up for a writing class may have you worried. Please don't be. My DS began writing 5-paragraph essays in 8th grade. Much of what was in the Smarr Ancient Lit package (which we did last year independently of MFW) was review. In addition to Smarr, he did IEW's SWI-C, some of their advanced writing classes, and some of the Rhetoric recommendations in WTM. He wrote argumentative papers every week or two in history. He writes easily, and has a strong voice. I have just taught him everything that I know. But I don't know the progym, and right now I don't have the time to learn. This class will give that to him. It's really a Rhetoric class. (It will be it's own credit, as it will take about 45-50 minutes of work daily.) For now we are still planning to do the writing assignments in the World History as given. HTH

I agree, I think the Smarr pretty much helped me cover the type of Lit essay I learned in AP English with my DS. In fact, I pretty much felt like I had taught myself into a corner and ended up putting him into the Lost Tools of Writing class with Memoria Press this year, because I just didn't know where else to go with his writing. I suspect there is quite a bit of "analysis" in the British Literature anthology (in MFW World History). But, I've only had time to glance through it. Knowing that I can always fall back on Well-Educated Mind if I need/want to, I haven't been excessively worried about it, you know? We've used WEM for the past 3 years, and questioning the book as we go is really becoming second nature, anyway.

It is interesting how quickly standards change once you just start reading. I remember when my oldest son was in 6th grade, and just the thought of reading one epic Greek poem in the 9th grade was enough to send me flipping through catalog after catalog and website after website of the "latest and greatest" high school curriculum. I just thought there was NO WAY that child (or myself) would EVER make it through even *ONE* of those huge tomes - however well-educated that would make us - LOL! Now, two years after my other posts in this thread - LOL!, here he is going into 10th grade having read all 3 last year! And, in fact - he ENJOYED them!!! And, just the other day, (cough, cough, sputter, sputter!!!) THANKED me for the experience!!!! I think he likes showing off his knowledge to his girlfriend more than anything :lol:. But, somehow, he truly feels like he relates to these ancient peoples - who, after all, really did struggle with the same issues and emotions we struggle with today. Yet, life happens and - Yes, you can tell from my siggy below that we have made quite a few compromises this year... Still, just the act of reading what you can, and then reading the next thing, and the next...I don't know...I'm just so thankful to be where we are. I think if everyone could just get through the logic-stage recs of WTM, the world would be a much better place.

FWIW, we are very new to MFW, too. My 10th grader is doing World History this year (after doing Ancients with me last year), and we are not that far into the year, so everything we're studying about Ancient Rome with MFW is a quick skim-over repeat of what we studied in-depth last year. We're biting our tongues and enjoying super-easy-peasy history days right now, and supplementing with historical fiction. ;) But...what I have enjoyed is that my high schooler and I both know what is expected. And, I can now concentrate on my 7th grade DS. We switched from a pure WTM-outline approach to more of an IEW approach last year for him, so MFW is set up pretty much the way we were already operating. And, since I've already been through SOTW and my library sources with my older one, I don't have a lot of "learning" to do for my 7th grader - I can just concentrate on the teaching. It's very easy to substitute what I want for English/Writing and Literature and whatever else - no need to feel bound to use whatever MFW recommends. What I have learned about the MFW Lesson Plan Guide is not to expect it to be my "Teacher's Manual" in the same way as a Sonlight or TOG Guide. MFW tends to use sources that come with their own Teacher or Answer Keys. So, one thing you might could do is look around online at some of the resources they use and see if you can find samples of those resources (like the Notgrass, the Smarr, or the Literature anthology if you're doing World lit, etc.). I do get somewhat anxious at times because there is no Scope & Sequence of Literary Objectives. But, then I remind myself that I didn't have a Scope & Sequence when I was doing things on my own with WTM/WEM as my guide and it didn't bother me so much then. ;) Well, it did. But I ignored it.... And, a very small thing, I wish there were more concrete guides for grading the discussions. That was kind of my downfall last year - I didn't grade any of the discussions as we went (blush!). I do think after the Jump-In and IEW Unit 7 and 8 your daughter will do more than fine with the instructions for the 5-paragraph essay (which I assume come from Smarr). If so, his instructions will walk you through a literature analysis essay step-by-step so that it's not a scary process at all. It's really not different than what she will have written before - she will just need to support her statements with facts and quotes from the text. Best wishes!

This will tell you exactly how to do the one-page persuasive papers in history, literature and science. Do them once a week. (BTW, you should also have her take notes each time she reads- about 3-4 times per week, approximately one page per day. The directions are in the new WTM.) The context papers for literature are a different type of paper, and are really just timelines in sentence/paragraph form. You do them before you read a Great Book. They do not need to be "great writing" and usually devolve into lists of what was happening in various parts of the world at the time the book was written. hth!

Take everything I say with a grain of salt, because I haven't started using MFW yet. One of the reasons I'm switching to MFW from doing a "mom-planned Ancients" year for 9th grade is that it is too tempting to over-do it. We had a great if too-full year last year, and if I weren't having daily migraines and having to work part-time I would be tempted to continue the insanity. But it was INSANE! Honestly, I am constantly on a see-saw of relief and worry about choosing MFW. Worry because, yes, I can relate to those moments of knowing I'm leaving part of my homeschool ideals; (said with a touch a sarcasm) You know, "How will my DS ever survive in this world if his 10th grade year isn't exclusively focused on the Middle Ages and Renaissance?" (OK, confession time - I had visions of achieving some full scholarship to some classical college. But honestly? My ds doesn't share that dream, and it's time for me to give it up, ya know?) But, back to my see-saw analogy....When I think back to my own high school experience, I realize how much more MFW is going to offer. I mean - Look - I even started a "books that we're going to read this year that are on the WTM list" list trying to calm my fears, and I finally realized that this was a pretty pathetic worry. I need to relax!!! This is a great curriculum! I need to trust it and master it. After all, I NEVER READ ANY OF THESE BOOKS BEFORE I STARTED HOMESCHOOLING AND I HAVE TWO COLLEGE DEGREES!!! So why I am freaking out about not doing *harder* versions of these books with some other method or curriculum for homeschooling HIGH SCHOOL?! OK - if you must know - these are the WTM-approved books/authors I listed before I decided this list was a waste of time :) Shakespeare - Julius Caesar 7 weeks is then spent on a Research paper during which Literature is optional. We might add in Augustine here IDK? Beowulf (Heaney) Everyman Canterbury Tales (selection) Sir Gawain & The Green Knight (excerpt) - I do wish this was complete. May add above. Renaissance poetry: Spenser, Marlowe, Raleigh, Donne, Milton Erasmus - The Praise of Folly Shakespeare - Sonnets Paradise Lost - excerpt Practicing His Presence (not on WTM - a modern work, I think) Pilgrim's Progress At this point, Week 17, I stopped my list since I was really only concerned about Medieval pieces when I was making my list. This was just the pieces listed under "Literature", and did not include the primary sources studied in history, IIRC. And, I don't know about the Ancients year, but in the World History there is a list of almost 30 historical fiction books and almost 40 movies in the appendix (all of which are optional) which you can add in to kick it up a notch as well as the SAT prep book mentioned earlier in the thread. Anyway, I hope that helps! Mostly I guess I am typing this all out for my own benefit - LOL! Something concrete I can come back to in my less-than-stellar moments when I know that my DH just can't relate to my lack of confidence.

My boys were 6th and 9th grades last year, and I didn't keep them together for anything except Read-Aloud time, and Memory Work (we did the IEW memory work for most of the year after lunch, but before Read-Aloud). Though my boys do get along quite well as brothers, they don't do well "competing" against each other, and they don't do well having the same school assignment. The younger one is now taller & bulkier than the older one if that tells you anything. It's a delicate balance of testosterone that is unique to our house. ;) Probably won't apply to your situation - LOL! I ended up "teaching" the younger one, and using things like Saxon with Art Reed's teaching DVD's for the older one. He does the Apologia on his own pretty much. History and lit they both read on their own (their readings were not coordinated), and then we discussed (not "all together" ala TOG, just one-on-one). Last year I didn't use MFW, we did Ancients, and I planned everything out for them. Oh - for scheduling - I had a really tight schedule planned every day. They never followed it. LOL!! Does that count? Mad Jenny Flint had her schedule listed, and I tweaked her schedule and worked in my 6th grader around that one. Actually, I tweaked that schedule every two weeks or so until it was completely unrecognizable. Still, I always seem to do better borrowing things from someone else.

As good as our experience was, right now I'm not in a position to spend my money on a class I can do at home. Although I admit, he did take Latin more "seriously" than his at-home classes. (I'm not sure that's the best adjective, but it's the only one I can think of at the moment.) I also don't think my DS really took advantage of "talking" with the teacher as much as he should have. I am going to keep that in mind as a goal for his on-line classes this year.

I still have a recurring dream every now and then about forgetting to show up for my last final exam of college, and the police showing up all these years later to take back my degree! :lol: (I was actually late for my last exam. It was for "Health" of all things - what a waste of time that class was!! - and I had to stay on campus for a whole week with nothing to do but wait for that last 30-minute, multiple-choice final. My now-DH and I had been to a midnight movie the night before - The Terminator, I think - after having watched Driving Miss Daisy and I overslept. Yeah, dumb move on my part.)

Ah - Well if money has already been spent, then why worry about whatever you're gonna do two years from now? After all, you don't even know what's gonna be available in two years. I remember 3 or 4 years ago lamenting that I just couldn't choose between TOG or SL for high school - and how I wished they could "get married" and have a classical curriculum that was actually high-school level with daily lesson plans - LOL! Now I feel like I've found a pretty good compromise between those two curriculum in MFW - but at the time I was worrying about it, and YES I was "worried" about it, MFW only went up to 8th grade. I regret that I wasted so much time worrying about something that was so not worth the worry. Really, my best advice is to be determined to not let worries about high school curriculum choices steal your joy in the next two years. Have fun instead!!!

That is actually a pretty cool concept. I wonder if it gives the brain time to digest the material learned before moving on to something new. (or just time to forget...)