Ruth, Thanks for your input and well thought out rationale for using AoPS in its traditional sense. I definately see value in the Discovery approach as I also experience more of these types of problems in my own workplace (software engineering). However I'm just not sure its the best approach for every student, hence the question. This is more about the *other* students who Discovery does not work well for which Richard Rusczyk also acknowledges. Does that mean just use something else entirely at that point? Or still integrate AoPS material into their education process, just in a different way. I really like the point you made about about not starting AoPS too early. Its seems like with more and more bright, early learners there is the tendancy to think why not just throw the hardest thing at them since they're bright/gifted anyway? And while they may be ready for some abstract thought, jumping into the deep end of AoPS Discovery can overwhelm very quickly. This is especially true when frustration and stuggle are intentionally built right into the teaching method. Handling that frustration along with totally new abstract reasoning is a lot for many children, young and older alike. That is one of the reasons I didn't use AoPS Pre-A for my son, at least as the spine. I just didn't feel he was ready for it in terms on his maturity level. Yet he can do abstract reasoning with traditional instruction and in fact enjoyed using AoPS in part. However I am considering Discovery with him after he has more algebraic reasoning under his belt. But if discovery doesn't work I still want to utilize the text as a great resource which I think that it is. With my girls it may never work. Only time will tell.

C'mon OhElizabeth, you? Never! :D Well, honestly, its everyone's various opinions that keep this board interesting. So I'll give my 2c worth. I also think Pre-Algebra is undervalued. And not all Pre-A programs are created equal by a long shot. But that's another topic. If she likes Jacobs I say how about this option. Continue 3x a week working on Percents and any other Pre-A subject areas she is not strong on such as negative numbers, etc... depending on which scope you are looking at. Then introduce Jacobs Algebra 2x per week or vice vera (2x/3x) This will give her an incentive with light at the end of the tunnel. Unfortunately there are no shorcuts to solid math skills beyond hard work. But being able to work ahead a bit can be fun and more interesting than percents *every day*. I did that with ds11 when he was finishing up percents letting him jump ahead once per week and work on Pre-A, where is also discovered percents and fractions yet again! But now he is done with percents and happily learning to graph linear equations in Pre-A. If she's a book gal I'd stick with that. Its good to include her a bit in the selection process. She'll gain a better sense of ownership in whatever program you choose that way. I hate to ask, but did she ever like Calvert or MM to being with?

Ok, I've have been wondering something about AoPS for quite some time now. How might some families use it in the non-traditional sense? In other words you use it as supplimental, non-Discovery, or partial discovery, etc... The reason I ask is that although I like the texts quite a bit, I'm just not sure it will work for my kids in its traditional way (Discovery) as a spine or not. I just got the Intro to Algebra today and am reviewing over it. So far I really like how it reads and flows, like a work of art almost. In the 'How to Use' section the author mentions something which strikes me and I've heard few discuss here. That is the two approaches one can take with the book. I'll provide the quote for those who haven't seen it: "We hope that teachers will find that their stronger students will discover most of the material in this book on their own working through the problems. Other students may learn better from a more traditional approach of first seeing the new material, then working the problems. Teachers have the flexibility to use either approach when teaching from the book." -- Richard Rusczyk This speaks to two teaching approaches, neither necessarily being more valid than the other depending on the child. Yet I hear very few AoPS fans trying any other approach than Discovery. The thing that strikes me as odd is that even the greatest fans admit that AoPS's approach (singular) may not work for all of their children. So they may end up using something more traditionally written like Foerster or Dolciani (my childhood Algebra text). However this also begs the question if a more traditional approach was ever tried using the same AoPS text before switching to something else? One could possibly show the short video lesson 'first' for example, before trying to work the initial problems. I know its not necessarily discovery in that case. But if it works best in that order then why not? I guess I'm just seeing more AoPS usage options outside the standard box. Does this make any sense at all? In fact I've already used the AoPS videos and sample Pre-Algebra text on linear equations with ds11 while using another Pre-A spine (TabletClass). We found that chapter to be a great resource as we also did Khan Academy. It was that experience with the text that put me over the top in making a decision to buy Intro to Algebra. So I wonder who else may use it in alternative ways, finding value in the excellent texts as they really are?

Ok, so AoPS Intro to Algebra came in the mail today. Wow, what a textbook! It really covers a lot in its ~ 600 pages! Yet it does so in a very conversational way. It feels much less cut and dry than the other Algebra 1 textbooks we have - Dolciani and Foerster. Yet its nothing like Lials (we have Pre-A) in that there is less clutter and busyness. It really gets to the point in a very concise way. Just the fact that they are able to include Algebra 1 and 2 in a 600 page book speaks to the concise nature of it. My son looked a little nervous when he first saw how big the book was and joked about me torturing him with it. :tongue_smilie: However after dinner he sat down and reviewed over it for quite some time with an intense look on his face. Afterward he mentioned that it was helping him better understand how to work out word problems. So I thought great, maybe he'll end up liking it after all! Oh well, only time will tell. I do think I'll slowly sneak some in on him, like maybe have him work the first chapter while still finishing Pre-Algebra.

I like the idea of using the test prep books to assess areas of weakness. You could also suppliment with other texts or online resources such as Khan Academy. Algebra I & II and Geometry would be where I would focus. The one thing to consider with MUS is that its scope and sequence are different than most standard programs from which tests are based. Many forum members who have used MUS for Algebra 1 do not consider it to fully cover the same scope as a standard Algebra 1 course. 8Fill and others have used it as a good *Pre-Algebra* for their kids. For example I don't think MUS Algebra 1 includes subjects such as Quadradic Equations, Point-Slope, Functions, Function Notation, etc... which occur in other standard Algebra 1 texts. There is a National Common Core Standard which High Schoolers are supposed to study and follow. Tests are based on these standards. Look at how many of these she may have studied so far? http://www.corestand...h Standards.pdf We switched from MUS Pre-Algebra to TabletClass because I was looking for something which would cover more core standards with greater depth in preparation for Algebra 1. However at this stage for your DD as a junior it might be too hard to switch to something else or maybe she could? I don't really know. But I would definately suppliment with other sources at the vary least with a focus on Algebra I & II and Geometry. If she can get stronger in those areas she should do better on the placement tests. Practice tests should show you similar lower scores and point to areas you can work with her on. Or as others have suggested maybe get a tutor for those areas. Sometimes a third party can be more objective and look at things from a different angle with her.

We use MUS, TabletClass, AoPS and Khan Academy. All have video instruction. MUS is the only one with DVDs. The rest are internet based. I think more programs are moving away from DVD and toward streaming internet content. DreamBox is really fun for our girls as a great math supplimental.

Hi Tammie, These are great points you are making regarding computation and more importantly the neat documentation of the steps involved with that process. As things get more complex it will be an absolute necessity as I am sure you are aware. We recently discussed this on the high school board here: http://forums.welltr...-use-tt-or-not/ As far as Pre-Algebra programs there are plenty of them which are great including AoPS, Dolciani, BJU, Horizons, etc... I wouldn't hesitate to pick up another text to use along side LOF for supplimental problems as a minimum. I have used AoPS Pre-A and Khan Academy with my ds11 to suppliment his Pre-Algebra. I do require that he shows me all of his steps to arrive at an answer. And I discuss the importance of neatness as well which greatly helps in discovering his own mistakes. We started the year with MUS Pre-Algebra, then moved to TabletClass because of the stronger scope, sequence and rigor it offered over MUS. For us the move was worth it even though it took a little more time vs. finishing MUS first. ds11 is graphing linear equations now and understanding things that I doubt he would have had we stayed with just MUS. I recommend switching if you think it will help or supplimenting as a minimum with another text for computational practice. I don't know of a 'computational review.' However I like what I heard one mom doing and that was to really change their whole math focus. For 6 months they were going to primarily focus on step-by-step neatness above and beyond all other things such as how much material was covered. And after that period her dc excelled far beyond what they had imagined from that excercise. As a software engineer I find this aspect of my work very important as I'm sure you do as well in your engineering work.

You guys can only see the Daisy formatted texts for some reason. These are special editions designed for those with certain reading disabilities. If you have a child with dyslexia for example you may qualify. DAISY is a form of talking book that is mostly used by people with low vision, blindness, and other print disabilities, such as dyslexia. DAISY stands for: Digital Accessible Information SYstem. DAISY formats use synthesized audio synchronized with text. -- http://www.readhowyo...ISY-Format.aspx BTW, I sent Open Library a question about what we discovered regarding this varied access. So hopefully they can shed some light on it. When I hear from them I'll update the thread with any additional information. It is really handy to be able to utilize when selecting textbooks.

Hm, maybe part of it is regional after all. I'll shoot them an email just to see what they say. BTW, I don't think the browser should matter because I was able to pull this up on my son's Nook tablet as well. It would be interesting to hear from other fourm members if they can borrow these additional math books from their locations.

Wow, that's crazy! Maybe there is something we're missing or its a technical problem with their website. It may be worth a call or email to them regarding the problem. Why would the same exact search show me all these books to 'Borrow' yet not either of you? Just out of curiosity what browser and OS and you running? Also here is the next page I get to after cliking on the 'Borrow' link. See if you can open this page: http://openlibrary.org/books/OL5844747M/Modern_algebra/borrow

Ok, Try this Dolciani Algebra search link: http://openlibrary.o...s_fulltext=true Next you should see 9 Dolciani books with a 'Borrow' icon which you can then checked out. Just click on 'Borrow'. Also notice two are currently checked out. I can checkout and view all of these when not otherwise checked out by others.

Ok, that is very strange. This is part of the reason I posted the image of the web page as it sounded like something odd was going on. Its partially funded by California Libraries. But nowhere does it say that it is only for California residents, at least that I could see. So I wonder why you are not able to 'Borrow' the books as I can. I would be interested if others outside CA can view them as well? I just found this in their FAQ. So I don't think its a regional issue. Its most likely a browser or other technical problem. How does borrowing a book work through Open Library? The Internet Archive and participating libraries have selected digitized books from their collections that are available to be borrowed by one patron at a time from anywhere in the world for free. These books are in BookReader, PDF and ePub formats (and Daisy for the print disabled). You can choose which format you prefer as you complete the borrowing process. BookReader editions may be read online immediately in your web browser. No special software is required. Other Internet Archive loans are managed through Adobe Digital Editions, which you may need to download to manage your library of borrowed books.

As I was thinking about your experiences and these topics which you taught, something dawned on me. Various schools are now following new State and National Math Standards. Some states are stricker than others for now anyway. And our curriculum 'TabletClass' mentions that it is based on these standards. So I emailed the owner, John Zimmerman, about this. He replied back: "All states “had†their own standards a few years ago but many (over half now) have switched to the common core curriculum national standards. The common core standards are a federal standard and all states will be using them eventually." -- http://www.corestand...h Standards.pdf In reviewing this common core standard I can see where it clearly includes areas such as function notation. However it also appears that they leave the method in which this is taught up to the school to some extent. For example it doesn't say that 'function notation' shall be addressed in Algebra 1. Rather it is a core area for High School math amoung other areas. Maybe some schools introduce these core elements earlier on in their programs, even some in Pre-Algebra courses. I know John Zimmerman does this in his classes earlier rather than latter to prepare students for more advanced work. That is one of the reasons I like TabletClass.

Anna, if you click on this link you will see the Borrow/ eBook link right under Read / Daisy directly to the right of the book: http://openlibrary.o...9707M/Algebra_1 I'm not sure if you and possibly others were under the impression that *all* the books are in the form of eBooks. They are not yet. Only the books which have 'Borrow Icon' can be checked out Like the Dolciani in this link. They are working on scanning more, but there are still a good number, especially the Dolciani math books available for check out.

Either one is fine. You could always start with Python then move to Java later. On the other hand there is no reason not to start with Java right away like Stanford does. The main thing to do initially is learn the logical aspects of computer program flow. All languages 'generally' do the same thing. Some are just more powerful or better in certain areas than others. I picked Java primarily because I not only know the language well but use it almost every day at work. So its nice to get ds learning something so practical. He's always curious about what I do. I would just take a look at the courses and training available and find the one he's most interested in. Get him involved in the selection process. Let him see some of these tools and programs mentioned above. Have him test drive some first. Then notice what peaks his interest. Having an interested, engaged student makes learning more fun.

Thanks for sharing your dd's experience and this Algebra 1 scope information. I know the s&s varies a lot from one program to the next. You did make me curious about these subject areas which seemed missing from Jacobs. So I went and checked some of the curriculum I have (Foerster, Dolciani, TabletClass). First of all I made a stop at my son's Pre-Algebra program -TabletClass. Sure enough, it includes a section on point-slope as well as functions. Now the finer disctinction you are making between functions and function notation I'm not sure about. Of course I don't have the Jacobs to look at. But for example my son's Pre-A has a chapter on functions and within that chapter there is a description of function notation (e.g. y = f(x)). There is also a description of functions using this notation such as f(x) = 2x +4. I found similar things in the other texts as well. The only I couldn't find easily was point-slope in Dolciani. Maybe its there and I just didn't see it. I don't have the AoPS Intro to Algebra text yet, but imagine these topics are covered in it as well. You also make a good point about sequence. I think that is probably more relevant for those making a switch into public or private schools midway through their books. Or with some programs such as Jacobs its good to be aware of potential missing topics not covered at all before testing.

Great to hear Stephanie! :hurray: I have had the same experience with John. If it wasn't for this forum I would have never heard about this curriculum. TabletClass is a great program with plenty of challenge for our son. We are finding the Pre-Algebra great preparation for Algebra. Its chapters actually map up very closely to the Algebra 1 course. He is graphing multivariable linear equations right now. I then have him suppliment with Khan Academy Algebra covering the same subject which he can do without much trouble. We are so happy with this first course that there is a good chance we will follow-up with a second one. Though I've gone kinda crazy with Algebra 1 textbook purchases recently. So we'll see. I'll most likely use a combo for Algebra 1, possibly over two years.

Yeah, I thought that might be the case. Though it would be nice to see samples before purchasing it. I wonder how necessary or useful the Solutions manual would be? I can imagine if Foerster is used as one's primary textbook it would be helpful. You may want to keep an eye on the used market as well including the various years of publication. I'm sure the new ones through Prentice Hall are more expensive by comparison. Speaking of finding deals, I thought I would ask AoPS if they ever offer sales on their books, like maybe once a year. Well I got an answer back from the founder, Richard Rusczyk, and apparenty they don't have specials or sales. Then upon checkout I noticed that if you buy 10 or more copies you get a 20% discount. And I thought hey, I bet we have enough parents preparing for Algebra that we could get 10 people together for a 'group buy.' But alas I went ahead and paid full price anyway since I wanted get the book sooner. :tongue_smilie:

Ok, here are the steps to read these math books online: 1. First register with Open Library to checkout books. 2. Next go to the book. For example here is the Dolciani book I purchased after reviewing its full content online: http://openlibrary.o...9707M/Algebra_1 3. On the right hand side click on eBook under Borrow. 4. On the Borrow screen select Read in Browser, then Read Online which has a nice reader builtin. 5. Review the full book contents 6. Please Return Book when done reviewing so others can borrow it as well. Click the 'Return Book' button in the upper left hand corner. Note: Not all books have been scanned yet, but quite a few Dolciani Algebra books have. Lastly, when you do a search such as Dolciani Algebra you will see which books you can borrrow. They are the ones with a little 'Borrow' icon to the right of their description. Some may currently be 'Checked Out' which also shows up in the same location next to their name.

Dolciani, Algebra 1 (1992) just arrived today. I ended up with a nice copy for very little. I think my wife and son think I'm crazy with all these Algebra books now. I really like this edition. It has a few little pictures with brief math related stories. But It still reminds me of my 1970s edition with some layout refinements yet still very compact. In comparing it with Foerster I can tell these are both very high caliber Algebra 1 texts. I don't think anyone could go wrong with either. Zaccarro's Real World Algebra is definately lighter and funner than these more serious 'get down to business' textbooks. I think the variety will be good to add to the mix. I went ahead and ordered AoPS Intro to Algebra as well today. Like you I felt like I have to at least give it a try, even if a bit later into our Algebra 1 adventure. And I'm not sure how much of it we'll use either. But the great lectures combined their unique approach to problem solving is something I at least want to introduce. I tell myself after Algebra I'll never aquire this many books for any single subject. But who knows, especially with the older used books, its hard not to pick up a few extras for pennies on the dollar. ;)

Wow, he is really young. But good for him! It really depends on what you want to do with him. It might fun to take a little detour first after some pretty intense Pre-A like go through Zaccaro's Real World Algebra. Our copy just came in the mail yesterday and my son was already looking through and asking me questions about it. I think I want to integrate in between Pre-A and Algebra somewhere. Have you decided to do one or two years of Algebra yet? You could always combine Dolciani with something else like LOF to add a little more interest or different perspective on things.

From just about the very beginning I have told my wife that her job is the most important and significant. I simply go to work to financially support the more important work she does every day investing her life into the lives of our kids. It goes far beyond simply their education, but rather permeates their developing hearts, souls, minds, bodies, personas, self-esteem, self-awareness, social consciousness, sense of right and wrong, etc... That is why its the most important job, a call to duty and service above and beyond most that I can think of with lifelong rewards. Is it harder than working a 9-5 job or simply not homeschooling? Absolutely! However is it worth investing all that extra time and effort involved? Yes, without a doubt! Once the fundamental paradigm shift occurs it becomes a way of life where some toys on the floor or simpler dinners are less significant issues. As others have already mentioned doing things such as daily chores (e.g. cleaning, cooking, shopping, etc...) become group activities in which the kids participate. Ours have early morning chores *before* they eat breakfast and start school such as vacuuming and cleaning the house. My son at 10 y/o wanted apple pie. So my dw showed him how to make one including peeling all the apples himself. :D For doctors appointments I try to come home early some days or my wife takes them along with her. My dw doesn't go to every ladies event at church but does go to the women's dinners. She also goes to homeschool outings with other moms during the week where the kids socialize as do the moms. Although different it becomes very natural once you get into this way of life.

That's funny. I like your approach. :tongue_smilie: Hopefully with all those texts available your decision making process should be somewhat easier. BTW, I've found it helpful to enlist my ds to test drive some of the programs. Then he also gets a greater sense of ownership when involved in the process.

MUS is great program for more independant learning. The lectures are short and to the point which really work well with the textbook. Our ds was 95% independant in MUS. We even had him grade his own work and correct his mistakes. If however something needed more explanation we would help. But the majority of time he was able to figure things out using the provided curriculum. At this stage you can skips the manipulatives as well. The only thing I would do If I were you would be to evaluate SM 6A/6B scope and compare with MUS Algebra Pre-A S&S. For example how much abstract math has been *introduced*? Have you or will you go over negative numbers? Then fill the gaps using Khan Academy or another supplimental. Just as an FYI here are the things covered in MUS Pre-A which you can compare with SM 6A/6B. We have this book as well: LESSON 1 Negative Numbers, Addition LESSON 2 Negative Numbers, Subtraction LESSON 3 Negative Numbers, Multiplication LESSON 4 Negative Numbers, Division LESSON 5 Exponents LESSON 6 Place Value LESSON 7 Negative Numbers with Exponents LESSON 8 Roots and Radicals LESSON 9 Solve for an Unknown LESSON 10 Pythagorean Theorem LESSON 11 Associative and Commutative Property LESSON 12 Distributive Property LESSON 13 Solve for an Unknown LESSON 14 Solve for an Unknown LESSON 15 Surface Area of Solids LESSON 16 Transform Celsius to Fahrenheit LESSON 17 Transform Fahrenheit to Celsius LESSON 18 Absolute Value LESSON 19 Ratio and Proportion LESSON 20 Similar Polygons LESSON 21 Least Common Multiple LESSON 22 Greatest Common Factor LESSON 23 Polynomials, Addition LESSON 24 Volume of a Cylinder LESSON 25 Polynomials, Multiplication LESSON 26 Adding and Subtracting Time LESSON 27 Volume of a Pyramid and a Cone LESSON 28 Military Time, Addition and Subtraction LESSON 29 Measurement, Addition and Subtraction LESSON 30 Irrational Numbers

There are many ways to transition into Algebra. Some use a formal Pre-Algebra program such as AoPS, Dolciani, Horizons, BJU, etc... While others go right into Algbera using a bridge course such as MUS Algebra which is somewhat easier yet covers the primary topics in very student friendly ways. I think Jacobs is another one known to offer good review of Pre-Algebra topics before starting with Algebra. Since we didn't use SM I'm not sure of the scope of 6B. But I do recall hearing others comment on it preparing their dc well for secondary math. We used MUS all the way through Pre-Algebra and definately need a Pre-Algebra course before jumping into Algebra. This is primarily based on the scope and sequence of the MUS program itself. We have now moved to TabletClass Pre-A for added rigor above and beyond MUS Pre-A. This is working great and I think ds11 will be well prepared for Algebra 1 next year. We also have used HOE as a supplimental and now Khan Academy for differing perspectives at times.