Beth, That's reminds me..... I've always wanted to thank you for the suggestion of looking at GeoScribe. It helped me to do the scheduled in ECC geography terms on paper instead of using index cards. And my oldest uses one page of the GeoScribe country things to help with the country summary sheets notebooking that MFW recommends. We're not doing them in addition to the notebooking in ECC, we use them as a tool to get the scheduled work done. And I just wanted to say thanks for the idea. -crystal

Like the others, I use the library. I'm not a big book buyer. The books in the packages (basic and deluxe) are the ones I buy and keep. I have found the package books help to provide a mix of text book and living books. Science in MFW: from my perspective the science is really good IF you do all of what is suggested. My dh has a PHD in chemistry and he and I both like how MFW does the science in elementary. Then in jr. high we switch to Apologia's jr. high track. MFW recommends it, but we planned to use it even before we found MFW. Good thing in science: nice mix of hands on stuff and just enough reading for that age. You can read more from book basket if the child is interested. And you can add more experiments or just fun stuff on Light and Independent Fridays (MFW has a 4 regular day schedule and Fridays have less to do to allow for doing fun extra stuff). Some of the science and history books are Usborne and include links in them for extra things. Hands on stuff is doable because you aren't doing difficult assignments all the time with hands on. It's more for demo and understanding instead of having to be super mom who can do it all. I'm not Super Craft MOM, and I like hands on in MFW. The other parts of science in MFW -- there is a reminder in each week's lesson to do a nature walk. Journaling and notebooking are recommended as part of the science. In the intro of the manual, you get all of that information. It is not a rigid notebooking in science or journaling so that you can flex on that. -crystal

I've found it open and go for the most part. I don't have to do lesson planning. But in order to be better prepared as a teacher it is to my benefit to at least look at it 5 minutes before starting for the day. ;) As Donna said, the K program manual isn't set up the same. I find that I have to take about 10 minutes for the entire unit study to prep. That's fairly open and go. I am in my 6th year of using MFW now. The other part of my prep time over the weeks is getting enrichment readings from the library (book basket.) The best thing is that you don't have to get the exact or all of the titles in book basket in order to make the unit study work. They are all extra reading. You'll have a wide variety of kinds of books and reading level. The idea is to let the children enjoy reading and selecting some of those books to promote independent learning in the subject in addition to the material taught from the package books. So, you have a lot of flexibility in book basket. Here is an entire FAQ file on book basket . I really like the ease of the lesson planning all done for me. -crystal

I'm not sure I'd lean toward starting with week 14 if the criteria is based on having done SOTW vol 1 unless that volume includes a lot of the Biblical history and New Testament history during the Rome study. I would start at the beginning to make sure that is covered. (I haven't read volume 1 of SOTW, so I'd not really sure about that from personal experience.) If you have to scale back a bit on the Roman history because it is review, that's ok. You'll still have other things to do and even the schedule for learning Latin roots starts in week 1. First semester science goes from about week 1 until week 18 or so, then a 2 week study on facts of life. So it's probably not the best path to plan to start at week 13/14 or close enough just because of reading through SOTW vol 1. You can condense a few weeks here and there if needed for roman history especially if it begins to get you bogged down. But if part of your draw to using MFW has to do with Biblical history and interweaving of it with other history, then don't skip out completely by starting at week 14. And of course as you progress through the material if you feel you have covered it, then condense a little if needed. -crystal

You'll probably want the homeschool edition of version 3. I don't think the personal edition has the "curriculum options" or built in grading/record keeping. Could be wrong. But if more than one student is using RS, you'll definitely want homeschool edition. I bought it with the audio companion. Those are optional and only seem in my limited experience to be helpful after completing the lessons on the computer. They are just extra way to listen to the assignments and practice without any visual. We barely use them so I don't really tell others that they "have" to have them. They are not to listen for a long time at once. But nice if you don't want to be at the computer and just want some extra hearing practice. -crystal

:iagree: I added Writing Strands for formal writing instructions. This was in addition to bits and pieces of other language arts in the unit studies that I use. -crystal

:iagree: few other ideas to add in to the mix Learn to count by 2's by sorting pairs of socks in the laundry. Learn about clocks with The Grouchy Ladybug (Eric Carle) or use children's literature for math concepts and applications. -crystal

Lori, I'd look at the placement test too. I know my oldest finished Zeta in her 5th grade year and then did Singapore 4B, 5A, 5B, 6A, 6B and finished with that in 6th grade. She's in 7th grade now. long story short...... even though she placed higher than Saxon 8/7 homeschool edition with pre algebra, we ended up using 8/7 anyway. And we're glad to be in it. It is meeting some of our other goals as well for our math smart kid. some of the rest of the story in our decision: We took 2 different Saxon placement tests. In one of them, she placed in Alg. I. In the one that is linked above she ended up placing into Alg 1/2. So we knew that we didn't really want to go higher than Alg 1/2. We got 1/2 and started it (with DIVE cd's). But something in me kept wondering about it. I saw that Saxon seems to recommend that students who do 8/7 end up skipping 1/2. So we decided that maybe we would just use 8/7 and let her work more independently and learn to take test and then skip 1/2 next year and go into Alg. I. -crystal

Hi Lori, What age or grade level is your son? You might be able to start with WS 4. (The first exercise is a little weird, but that’s ok.) I haven't used R&S to know. But maybe some of this will help as you think through it. Here are the kinds of skills in WS 3. If you think he has covered it, then go to 4. Some kinds of lessons are repeated and expanded in other books, so it builds over time. Basics of structure and expansion of sentences and paragraphs. Topic sentences Organizing (form of outlining) a topic before writing several paragraphs. Using descriptive writing to help your reader see the unseen Creative writing skills: Creating characters that are likable, and describing how they think, talk, move. Planning a short story with organization the events, and details. Maintaining point of view (1st or 3rd person) while telling story Punctuation with dialogue in a story not switching tenses. -crystal

I'm just curious if anyone else thinks that the sentence Red is my favorite color is using transposed order therefore the subject is not red, but Color??? :confused: I know my oldest didn't learn about transposed order until 5th or 6th grade books. The subject of a sentence is who or what the sentence is about. why am I singing School House Rock, Mr. Morton is the subject of the sentence and what the predicate says he does. Hi Terri, You might find some help online with the Purdue University Online Writing Lab OWL link Might be worth it for teacher/mom to play around with it?? -crystal

Mine just came in yesterday's mail and I live one state away. -crystal

He's in first grade, I wouldn't worry about it right now. I'd watch more about how he is thinking about numbers and adding when using his fingers. But, he's is 1st grade and learning a lot. My middle child using her fingers as help for manipulatives and a quick help to her, and I still don't see what the big issue is. She usually did it as a way to keep on track. Maybe she is the exception to the rule, I don't think so though. She's only 9 now and has out grown the need (unless she is distracted by her younger sister and just needs the extra help to concentrate. -- we all get distracted by that youngest one). She sees her fingers in groups of 5's and 10's and numbers between thanks to using the idea of number bonds like in Singapore math. Her fingers are quicker to find instead of blocks, beans or other equipment while helping her to mentally think about it while seeing it. But her fingers are not the only thing she used either in those early stages. Usually she wasn't just counting on her fingers in a way that she'd start at 1 each time. If it was 12-4, she'd count backwards from 12, while just tapping down 4 fingers on one hand. She visually knows 1-10 on her fingers without having to count them each time, so it just helped her stay focused and on track. It helped her to learn the facts more quickly and it self resolved. And then she used her fingers to help her keep track of skip counting to be able to quickly help learn multiplication and division facts too. So, something seems to click in her brain to help when she uses her fingers as a math manipulative along with other things she is learning. -crystal

I'm guessing it is probably in the Home Instructor's Guide (seen them at Rainbow Resource Center and other places too) however, I don't use the HIG so it is just a guess. Within the SM books, bar diagrams (picture version of rods) begins in the 3A textbook pictures. Then you can either draw those bar diagrams and things or build them with rods or blocks if you want to. Well, in some ways the bar diagrams began in concept in 2A/2B when you cut segments of rope pieces and things like that. -crystal

long shot b/c I'm not sure..... It wasn't Another Celebrated Dancing Bear, was it? We did that in FIAR, but I don't remember the story 8 years later. I just remember it involved bears,Russia in the days of the czars, and drinking tea. ????? :confused: -crystal

That sounds like me last year. My oldest was at the middle of 6th grade and finished 6B. I just knew something in me said "wait on starting algebra". It wasn't that I didn't think she couldn't handle the algebra concepts, it was more that I didn't think she'd be ready for longer day of math. Not that this is what you should do necessarily..... I ended up getting a prealgebra program for 7th grade in order to hold off for a while and let her get older for a few more months. That way she could get familiar with taking tests too and learning math from a traditional textbook and doing that more independently. That met more of my goals academically than just jumping ahead into Algebra. My dh and I didn't see a real need to rush into algebra at 7th grade. I did Algebra in 8th grade when I was in public school decades ago and still had time to take AP calc. My dh was put on a faster math track when he was in high school. By 12th grade he was taking differential equations (sophomore level college math) at a local university. Either way (algebra in 7th or 8th grade) was still an advanced track in our eyes. Just wanted to say that if you're thinking that you don't want to jump right to algebra for any reason, you're not the only one who didn't. And those were some of our reasons for why my dh and I decided not to. -crystal

slight hijack here.... Christina, I'm not the person you were asking, but couldn't resist. I have no clue which one you'd be in. But, maybe you'll get to find out in some ways next year when you do EX1850 with the younger sib supplement ;) The history hands on activities and readings from ADV are all part of the EX8150 in the younger supplement. And the state sheets are in there too. And all of the book basket books too. The difference is in Bible and science. Younger sibs will do the Bible and science in EX1850 instead of the stuff from ADV. I guess the biggest difference is in the pacing. In EX1850, the State Sheets aren't as quickly paced because they are spread out over EX1850 and 1850MOD. But they aren't that much to color (just the flower and the bird and the goal is to train your eye for detail, not just to color them in. My girls liked their state sheets. They'd color them in while I was reading to them.) ADV was written after my oldest was too old to use it. I bought it for my middle child not knowing about the younger supplement for EX1850. I didn't ask at the convention b/c I was rushed. So, the summer after RTR and before starting EX1850 in the fall, we ended up doing a condensed version of just the Bible and science in ADV. (we liked doing the salt and light candle. it was fun.) And then the history part we just did in the one manual. So, I never got to do ADV as a full program. I did the summer thing and then younger supplement in EX1850. -crystal

just to clarify a bit on the numbers of books.... In addition to the basic and deluxe package books, MFW ADV has over 300 recommended enrichment readings in the manual. All (or nearly all) of Core 3's books are on that recommended list (if I've understood other posters correctly on this topic.) It is expected that you either buy some of the books or just use the library to get them. They are arranged by week of the program so you know when to get them and let your child read the extra books. So it is expected that you add in more reading related to the unit studies in science, history and even music appreciation, but MFW provides a pre-screened list to help you at the library. Good thing is -- you don't have to use all of those titles, nor the exact titles. The cost is lower by using library. And you have the ability to enjoy the historical fiction stories and biographies from that "book basket" time, because you glean the facts from the books in the basic package. so you can do those book basket books at your pace. Also, MFW includes read alouds in the deluxe. Lots of reading time in MFW if you use their recommendations. I haven't used Core 3 to compare. But I can talk about ADV to help you get a feel for it. ADV is written in mind for a 2nd grader who is the oldest in the family. It is not just American history. The Bible and Science in it are about understanding the names of Jesus. So, when you learn about Jesus being the light of the world, you have a science unit on stars, planets and such. Or that He is the bread of life, then you have a unit on bread/yeast, make bread together. SL and MFW are very different in approach to learning. ADV includes simple to do hands on projects to enhance the learning and retention of materials. Materials will be found in grocery store or favorite "stuff mart" store. Notebooking pages are part of appendix pages in the ADV manual. Those are scheduled when to do them so you can teach some writing and language arts related to your unit study. Some language arts is included as part of unit study with Bible and even science too. Memory work, copywork, dictation easily come from Bible time in ADV. There is an optional assignment for advanced students to do extra dictations each week (starts in about week 6).And then you add in a language arts program like Primary Language Lessons. ADV deluxe will include art and music and the read alouds that I mentioned already. It's not just a history program. Designed to be more CM in approach. Here's a link to a thread on the mfw board that helps to compare how MFW differs from lots of other programs out there. Written of course from the perspective of MFW users. It is sorted by similar kinds of programs to help you find information quicker. How does MFW compare to ??? -crystal

well, from watching a friend of mine who made this mistake, may I second a suggestion that was already said? Call them their grade level based on their age, not their ability or workbook level. My friend's oldest is 10 years old and is called a 6th grader. But he is 10 year old boy who is not ready for the length of assignments in 6th grader materials for each and every subject. It was a constant battle because he was being expected to do too much over his maturity level. So, she and her husband had their son go back and do some other program's 4th grade level and he is thriving in school again. The topics got to be more mature than he was really able to be ready for. And that played into their decision. Your decisions might be different. And they might still graduate early or do dual enrollment or something -- so don't get too concerned about that right now. My middle child was already reading at age 5. And in 1st grade she was ahead of the reading curve and math curve. But, she needed time to learn to write composition, practice handwriting, etc. Practice that copywork, narrative summaries, used phonics for spelling lessons. I still had her in a 1st grade program and just tweaked the phonics to be spelling, and let her read for fun. Truly advanced kids will not forget their skills. Mine didn't. So what to do with an advanced skill 5 or 6 year old?? Remember to add in how to cook, how to clean and tie their shoes. Consider starting foreign language with them to add more academics. Logical thinking books. Think Breadth over depth at this stage. Add in a musical instrument. Allow time to pursue individual interests (building forts, enjoying rocket science, legos). If you and your family want to be making the world a better place, or serving and growing in whatever your religious faith may or may not be -- then use the extra time in your day to go out and serve as a family in ways that meet your personal passions and convictions. In this way, you have a well rounded child in addition to an advanced academic kid. That's what I would do with an advanced K and/or 1st grade child. Your mileage may vary. Ok, so clearly I lean in the more Charlotte Mason ideas on all of that. ;) -crystal

That is true about the "or" part. I didn't intend to leave that out. WS 5 is designed for students who are 15 or 16 and starting the program for the first time. (or for younger kids who have finished book 4) So, clearly WS 5 and 6 are up there in level. My 7th grader, age 13, is in WS 5 right now after having used WS 3 and 4 in later parts of 5th and 6th grade. I think what I am trying to say is there is no need to *rush* through books 3 and 4 with a 5th grader in order to "stay on track" with WS. No need to rush a 5th grader into book 5 out of concern of "being behind" in the scope and sequence. make sense??? Yes, a 5th grader who has finished with book 4 can be in book 5, but it is not "5th grade book" and the student is not behind. It is my experience with my advanced child that the WS 5 book still needs to be adjusted for a 5th grader who is using the book as it is written more for the expectation of the older range. It even says that in WS 5 itself: "of course, fifth and tenth grade students would write much differently, but that is not a problem. Both can experience learning the skills presented in this level." -crystal

I don't have my copy of WTM easily available to read that suggestion in context. Just to encourage you though.... WS 5 was written for about 8th grader or 9th grader, so please don't over rush the lessons to try to do WS 5 in 5th grade. And it would have to be a very advanced 6th grader who would be able to do a WS 6 as WS 6 is written for about high school level. The book numbers do not necessarily match grade level. You'll have to scale back quite a bit in WS 5 with a 5th grader. It can be used, but it might work better when the child is a little bit older. -crystal

Writing Strands says to start with book 3 at that grade if they haven't done a lot of writing. But then again, they say to start book 4 with an 8th grader who is new to WS. hmm.... I'd personally lean toward using book 3 in about a semester's time for a 7th grader who hasn't had a lot of formal writing instruction. Additionally, in book 3, some things can easily be done together with parent to bounce ideas around before writing. There are key lessons in book 3 that you'll want to do with a child who hasn't had any formal writing lessons. Now, they will be simple in the beginning because the book is designed for grades 4-7. But there are lessons on expanding sentences, pulling them into a structured paragraph. Writing short story from outline questions. Organizing multi paragraphs into a report (but it is done by writing about things in one room of your house, and another one is from looking out of your window). just one opinion -crystal

One other thing in my mind.... (I went back for coffee....) The story is "supposed" to be 4 paragraphs long. Each paragraph is roughly 4 sentences each. Each of those questions that are presented is your topic for each paragraph. at least that's how I interpreted the assignment. So, he might want to write 2 paragraph on each of days 2 and 3 and then on day 4 revise/improve all of them. -crystal

On that assignment, WS 3, exercise 3, older students might not need 3 days of writing to complete the short story. WS 3 can be used from about grade 3 or 4 up to about grade 7. A 6th grader is not going to have to take as long on that assignment. But it is a good idea to take 2 days on it. One to write, one to revise/improve. EX. 3, day 1, (my 9 y.o this year) we did that part out loud together to help think about expanding sentences by adding in an adjective. And then it carried over into the story that we were writing for the rest of the assignment. But you weren't asking about that part of it. Day 2 for my kid this was time to develop the story. My average 9 year old spent the writing time acting a story about the kitten. I wrote down her words and story in outline form based on the questions that are asked. I used those 4 paragraph points to prompt her a bit. In some ways this was an oral lesson meets drama time combined with the outline too. Day 3, my 9 y.o wrote out and revised with me the first two paragraphs of the story. Day 4 -- wrote and revised the final 2 paragraphs. When I was helping with this lesson, I encouraged my daughter to try to include one sentence in each paragraph that was about the thoughts or feelings of the kitten or duck instead of just describing action. And we also practiced a little bit of dialogue writing in one of the paragraphs (last one) to have the ducks talking to each other. That's what I did. I tend to use WS about 2 days per week so that the other days of the week can be for reading and other English/language arts. That way I have built in the "take a week off" of writing that WS encourages. It amounts to the same thing. Even doing that, my oldest (last year 6th grade) was going through WS book 3 at a faster pace. So she ended up doing all of this specific assignment in 2 days instead of 4. And my oldest uses word processing for her WS assignments. (She did book 3 and 4 last year in 6th grader and is in book 5 this year as a 7th grader.) Just this year she began to enjoy writing an ongoing fan fiction story. So, she will use the goals and skills that are in some of WS assignments and apply it to things that she wants to write about as a way to play with writing styles and incorporate new ways in her writing. Just a heads up on Exercise 7 in WS 3. Many kids freeze up on that assignment and think and say it is dumb or whatever you allow your kids to say when they are frustrated. :) Just keep in mind the goal about the skills. The skills in this lesson are valuable for learning how to organize your thoughts and to logically present those thoughts to a reader. Also in Exercise 7, some children need a writing prompt to help start it. One idea my oldest and I tossed around was to make it about a detective walking into a room and needed to be very accurate about his report. -crystal

Agreeing with Lisa's answer on it Asta, I certainly don't want your son to throw a book at your head. :lol: I think I said in my first answer that the book is not secular at all. I never said "open minded" either. :) Not quite sure what exactly that means in this context, but I've had a bad headache all day and my mind is closed except to Advil. I Kissed Dating Goodbye is a book about the author's journey and his decision making process about why he wanted to stop dating. It is his faith (which is Christian and he is strong in that conviction in the book) combined with other long term thinking reasons, several of which were the same kinds of things that the OP's son was saying. so that's why I thought it could be modified if nothing else was out there. Can all religions use it? I doubt it. That's why I suggested previewing it at the store. Like Lisa, I wouldn't really recommend it to a secular audience without it being said the book is from the author's Christian beliefs as well as many secular reasons too. It's a lot about why he quit the dating scene. now for the amazon review things.... Maybe some extra details about what is in those chapters would help to see if it is worth even looking at for you. It may well not work at all you. Or it might be one of these books that you skip sections to get to the good stuff. One of the chapters that is mentioned in the review you quote is the Seven Habits of Highly Defective Dating. Out of the 7, only 1 of them is really focused on it being a God reason (purpose of life). The rest of the reasons have to do with long term thinking about character in other people and issues that are about marriage, but not solely about religious marriages. The sentence in the review is about that 1 reason out of 7 in that chapter. It's really about making the most of your years when you are single and using the time to focus on your purpose and big goals in life --whether they are from God or job or what ever drives the purpose of your life. In other words, there is no real need to rush. The Amazon review mentions the chapter on Guard Your Heart. Starts off talking about not being so rigid that the rules of not dating take over and make you lose sight that some day will be ok. This chapter might be a harder one for secular audience to adjust. But there are some good things in it about how hard it is to fight the battle when everything is all around you with dating, couples, and s*xy ads and all of that. But it will be harder to adjust for secular. That one might cause eye rolling for others. The other chapter was What Matters at Fifty. This chapter does again address it with scripture references for the Christian audience. But the information is the same stuff that my non-Christian mother-in-law teaches in her Self Esteem classes. My MIL is of the Huna philosophy for her spiritual walk. Except for who and what gets quoted, this is the stuff she teaches in her classes about looking for a life partner. Yes, Harris, talks about it in terms of making sure that the reader looks for spiritual qualities and how a potential spouse is living those qualities. It is but one aspect that Harris mentions about glimpses into true character and true beauty. I can imagine that many non Christian readers will not like the parts about relating to authority. But I've even heard Dr. Phil and others talk about how to look at how someone relates to their parents. so it's a nice chapter about true character, how to look for it, and true beauty. My hope is that you'll find a book out there that will help that wouldn't have to be adjusted or modified for your belief system. But if not, this one might be worth it for modified discussion for the teen who is already saying "I don't really want to date." then again, I might be wrong. -crystal -crystal

well.. I'm just reading for the first time, Josh Harris's I Kissed Dating Goodbye. I think your son might be able to handle it even with the Christian content of the author. The book in many ways is about Josh's journey through the decision making process of not dating after being someone who did the dating scene. It is a lot more than just religious reasons within Christian religion. It does contain a lot of Christian content too. So, you might want to sit down for a little while in the book store and scan it to see if it is too much for your son. Many of the things that your son has mentioned are many of the reasons that are in the book. Lots of long term thinking in the book. I would start with that one. I haven't read Boy Meet Girl, by J. Harris. -crystal