In my little sphere of the world, personality, drive, and desire seem to have far more influence on outcomes than the actual school attended. My niece is VP of top data analysis company in NYC. She is over 500 employees. Her degree is an art history degree from one of the lesser directional u's in NC. Then there is a young lady with a degree in medieval studies and Italian from Norte Dame who works as a receptionist in a church office. Those scenarios reflect who they are as people, not where they went to school. The entire conversation is pretty much unanswerable. Who knows what would happen if person A had gone to school C instead of B. Are a small handful to celebrity level outcomes reflective of an entire school? Are lesser outcomes? How much are long term outcomes influenced by the family behind the student before they even step on campus? (My dad was an astute, savvy businessman who knew how to sell himself as the man for the job, and my niece definitely walks in his footsteps.) Is someone who decides they want to work their hometown at a lower prestige job, but higher personal satisfaction life, less accomplished? (How about all of us well-educated, stay-at-home homeschooling moms not using our degrees in the workforce?) The focus on strictly on high-power outcomes with compelling-type careers does not match degree or school. Those types of careers really require high-energy, career-focused people. A degree alone is not going to make up for a low energy, less career driven individual. Sometimes doors open that are just a matter of simple timing and circumstances and have nothing to do with any school at all. Sometimes a compelling personality can find a path forward that others never could. Tldr--I think it can a be a whole of lot much ado about nothing. Most people just want a good life.

It isn't the qualities that are a stereotype. I agree those are the qualties that employers want.

I think the bolded is the stereotype that leads to these circular discussions. My ds graduated in 2011 in the midst of the recession. He had 4 job offers at graduation. His university is small, less than 9000 students, and is focused on UG, no real grad programs. In terms of national rankings, his is a public technological university, not an LAC. That does not bode well for USNWR rankings. Industry, otoh, highly recruits from the university. Their chemE dept has won awards for their hands-on, project, problem-solving focus. When he was hired by a top international chemical company, his new hire orientation was full of GA Tech, VA Tech, UMichigan, etc grads. They were all hired in at the same entry level position and salary. He has worked right alongside them and has been promoted alongside of them. Public assessment of schools from the outside via a magazine's ranking system does not necessarily equate to employer perception. That may alter by field, but for chemE, anyway, that has been our ds's experience.

Mark, I would hesitate to translate individual stories onto other kids. I am sure that is not what you are doing, but generalizations just don't work well for individuals. There is currently a thread on Bama's CC forum where someone posted to parents that their kids should take light loads their freshman yr and should repeat AP courses. For a lot of kids that might be really good advice, but for others it would be stifling. In answer to your question, my ds is doubling in math and science in the honors college as well as having a research minor that is a selective subset within the honors college. For him, it has not ever been a slight issue. But, he is also a student where that CC thread advice would not have been a good fit for him. He jumped into freshman yr taking 18 hrs and 300/400 level courses. He started doing research 2nd semester freshman yr. He is a very strong student with a very strong work ethic. He is also very self-aware and mature. He knows what he is doing and what he wants. Fwiw, I have no idea what schools your ds is interested in, but if you are looking for scholarships and your ds is a strong physics student, Bama has great physics scholarships that stack on top of their admissions scholarship. https://physics.ua.edu/high-school-physics-contest/. The top 2 scorers on the individual test are awarded the equivalent of in-state full tuition and the dept's Barr scholarship. The Randall Research Scholars program (formerly known as CBH) is also excellent and some students get additional scholarship $$. Ds has the presidential scholarship plus those other 3. They also have a pre-designed double physics and EE degree. http://ece.eng.ua.edu/undergraduate/double-major-in-physics/

My 2 current college students were both awarded large scholarships. Ds's covers all costs (actually, since he lives so frugally, he has been able to put $$ in the bank.). Dd's is not quite full ride. Once she doesn't have to pay the higher dorm and meal plan costs, it will be pretty close to covering all expenses. I cannot fathom what it would have been like if our kids hadn't received those scholarships. There is no way we could have managed.

Creekland, my oldest ds went to an engineering school whose RNP in national universities according to a 3rd rate magazine. (Love that quote!) Didn't hurt him a bit. The whole cost conversation in general is murky territory. While it is true that for some families the highly competitive top ranked schools are amg their most afford options, for other families those higher ranked universities are amg their most expensive options. Students with the qualifications to attend competitive schools are competitive for very large merit $$ at lower ranked schools. So for those families, the financial spread between higher and lower ranked schools can be huge. I am just soooooooo glad my 10th grader wants to live at home and commute to the local u bc that means I don't have to jump back on that merry-go-round any time soon.

My brother is wealthy. I wouldn't trade my lifestyle for his for anything in the world. I would much rather live my normal MC life than live his day to day social life. Not for me at all. (And I do not for 1 sec believe he is happier than I am even with his jetting his family around the world at the drop of a hat for some safari, cruise, or Swiss ski trip. ;) ) Love my life! Guess what we want out of life can be a huge factor in how we perceive things. Wealthy is not a goal I have for my kids. A stable, good life....that is all I want for them.

My 2 older kids with careers both earn significantly more than the median salary for their careers for their yrs of experience. Both went to low ranked, unknown schools. Their careers have not been impacted negatively by their school's rank. Ds was accepted to extremely competitive REUs where the other kids were from top ranked institutions. I don't think it has hurt him, either. Grad school outcomes will reveal whether or not that is true. (though at this particular moment I am not even sure what his application list even looks like!) ETA: Our kids' total costs to us for all of them is a very small % of what our EFC would be for even 1 of them.

Applying hoping for reduction based on circumstances is tricky business. I agree with you. Our EFC is ridiculously high for our real world scenario. We know we can't pay, so our kids have to apply accordingly to schools they know upfront we can afford.

Just as a heads up, this will also likely generate a huge headache scenario. All of the moving costs paid by another entity are also considered income. Unless you are paying for your move at your own expense, expect inflated income for your move. I hope he is applying to a couple of affordable options not dependent on grant aid.

When you described your situation last yr, I was afraid it might come back to haunt you. Yes, definitely write to each FA office. Hopefully, they will be willing to work with you. I suspect some will, but I would also be concerned that some won't. Send all the pertinent documentation and follow up asking if they require anything else. ETA: They won't care about loans or credit card debt, so I wouldn't send that info. The only thing that might make an impact are the medical bills(they will probably make some adjustment based on that amg) and verifying actual take home pay when reducing out international benefits that are not actually real income but cost of living adjustments. I don't know how many are going to reduce out the COL benefits bc you are receiving the benefit of having them.

How much control does she have over what and how she studies? That is the age my kids really start having a lot of influence ov r their own days.

2 hardbound sets that my kids love are Collier Jr Classics and Journeys through Bookland. 2 of my girls love JtB so much that they bought their own set to put away for the future. Our sets are the older versions. I think the Classic set is from the 40s or 50s and the JtB series are like 1909-1932 eds. No, the are not unabridged. Doesn't change my love for them. You can view the JtB series on Gutenberg. I also like Landmark books, American Heritage Library (jr version for younger kids), Horizon/Caravel books. (Great lists of them herehttp://www.valerieslivinglibrary.com ). My kids have also enjoyed the Time-Life History of Civilization series. https://www.amazon.com/Time-Life-Frame-25/dp/B000LTUVTK/ref=cm_cr_arp_d_product_top?ie=UTF8 (I got the complete series like new from a library sale for something like $15.00.)

My ds started as a triple major: EE, physics, and math. He dropped the EE bc he does not like engineering. He will be graduating with a double in physics and math and a minor in research scholars (CBH). Fwiw, research and physics have required him to master multiple programming languages. He spends most of his time programming. My Dd is doubling in international business and finance (or Econ, she vacillates between the 2) with minors in French and Russian. She hasn't declared them majors (though she will have more than enough hrs) bc the gen ed requirements are very different than IB, and she can't meet them and meet her honors requirements and a yr abroad in France.

Ds knows several EEs who doubled in physics. There is quite a bit of overlap.

My kids have always done very well on the math section. They read slowly, so reading speed has always been their Achilles heel.

Wow!! Congratulations to your Dd!!! I have read your posts over the yrs, and it is exciting to follow her success! :party: :party: :party:

Then you have people like me who cringe at that very idea bc we view that entire proposal as the antithesis of homeschooling and actually creating a school that simply attempts to fly under the radar of regulating bodies. (Of course I actually embrace homeschooling as home schooling.) Creating an entire k12 curriculum that students study and come to a building with teachers teaching those subjects based on that curriculum, that is really a school with parents simply doing what they are provided and told. I personally believe that type of system should fall under a different regulating system than homeschooling. That would really closer to a private school or a morphed version of a correspondence school with an in-class element than a homeschool. To become a national for-profit chain with no accredition or regulation....that to me does not serve the needs of children and would most likely offer poorer educational outcomes. (And I am not sure why parents would want to trust a program with no real oversight over curriculum selection/design or qualifications of teachers when they are handing off that responsibility to someone/something else.) Fwiw, university model schools exist, and they are typically much stronger academically than CC. If they actually have the name UM, then I think they fall under the UM accrediting body since I think that they are accredited in some way. If my understanding is correct, they do have regulations and qualified teachers. (I am not 100% positive though. I just remember reading something about accreditation. If ai wanted to enroll my kids in something like that, I would want to know.) Know what is currently available to parents? Loads of curriculum options and tools for teaching their kids at home when parents take on the responsibility to educate their children without enrolling in a school. The educational "outcome barrier" should be the paramount concern before the decision to homeschool is made and that outcome "barrier cost" should be based on very high standards.

A couple my kids have really enjoyed are Penguins on Ice https://www.amazon.com/SmartGames-SG-155-Penguins-Ice/dp/B004TGPPOC/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1510913500&sr=8-3&keywords=penguins+on+ice Shell Game Logic and Memory https://www.amazon.com/Shell-Game-Logic-and-Memory/dp/B00IUAAJZ8/ref=sr_1_2?s=toys-and-games&ie=UTF8&qid=1510913615&sr=1-2&keywords=The+shell+game

I would take your link and not think of it in such distinct terms. Lots of assignments are research-based essays vs. thinking in terms of the "research paper" that is x pages long. For example, a comparative essay on the formation of Greek vs. Roman gov'ts technically meets that links definition of a "research paper," but the assignment could very well be assigned as an essay assignment. And I absolutely disagree that essays are short and typically 5 paragraphs. That would probably be a ps definition of an essay, but certainly some of the most brilliant essays students study defy that criteria. (For example, Jonathan Swift's A Modest Proposal is classified as an essay and is most definitely not defined in terms of 5 paragraph essay.) You might want to look through this text that is viewable online. http://www.mtcarmelacademy.net/uploads/1/1/7/5/11752808/patterns_for_college_writing_laurie_g_kriszner_12th_edition.compressed.pdf (I personally love this text and have used it with 2 of my high schoolers.)

I am completely unfamiliar with MP's program, but do they really not have high school students writing essays? Essays typically require research, supporting evidence, citations, and biblio page. If students have mastered writing essays across subjects, it is not a difficult leap to a standard research paper (though I don't know how standard writing a research paper is in college. Far more common is an assignment researching/supporting/arguing/persuading a position, comparing/contrasting some sort of cultural/political/literary aspect or positions on various science topics, etc)

For international business, USC's cohort programs offer well-developed abroad programs where the abroad institutions' courses are integrated directly into the degree sequence. My Dd is in the CIFA cohort and will spend her entire jr yr abroad at the University of Dauphine taking their finance courses in French. The partner students from Dauphine return with the US cohort students for a yr at USC. They have 5 different regional cohort programs. (The programs are competitive and require an extensive application. Dd had to research an economic issue impacting French speaking countries and write an essay on the topic as part of the application. I think only 9 or 10 students were accepted into her cohort.) https://sc.edu/study/colleges_schools/moore/academic_programs/undergraduate_programs/undergraduate_majors/international_business/international_business_curriculum/cohort_programs/index.php

I didn't use that section to answer the question that way. I interpreted it to mean other than. We included things like golds on the Russian essay contest and CLEPs, etc.

Could he have a slow processing speed? I wonder if his giftedness masks his processing speed but when he is anxious, he can't compensate as well. If he has unlimited time on a test, does he do better? (This is what happens with my gifted Aspie.)

I didn't follow any of the links, somIndont know if this has been mentioned, but the University of Ottawa has a program where international students can attend at resident rates if they take at least 9 hrs per semester of their courses in French. They have a lot of supports in place for students to help them succeed. My Dd was really interested in the program until she go sick and then the idea of being so far from home in a very cold climate (we were living in the Deep South at the time) made her change her mind. For students interested business with a lot international travel but through a US university, USC's cohort programs are pretty amazing.