I got booted before I had the chance, which was disappointing. I was asking out of exasperation and genuine curiosity.

Nothing. The point is that they'll defend themselves and their beliefs in a knee-jerk, arbitrary way any time they perceive they are being challenged and ban people in that same spirit.

Well, they can always just refer people to their files. Or tell people their recommendations aren't secular and leave the thread up. That would definitely be easier to forcing folks to delete.

Well, I joined the group, and was recommending secular curriculum along with everybody else. So, ideological purity issues aside, I would say that made me a member. I got booted when I started asking questions. But you're right, they don't have to engage in dialogue or explain arbitrary sounding decisions to people who are genuinely bewildered. I do think it odd that a group that advocates a particular ideology would not be willing to explain themselves more thoroughly, considering how (relatively) extreme their stance is. Yeah, I do think it's being the thought police when they delete any mention of curriculum they disagree with or ban people who ask questions. I'm not going to give them a free pass for that. I wouldn't give a free pass to a religious group that did that either, so please don't imply that I'm only venting because they are secular. Still, I think your comparison is apt. Thinking of SEA as a church of true believers is probably more accurate than thinking of it as a group of people with a variety of beliefs who happen to prefer secular materials.

I know but sometimes I wonder about that. The number of non-secular hsers to me has always seemed quite a bit higher that 1/3, especially outside of urban areas. I sometimes noticed that a lot of people in evangelical churches started homeschooling because they saw people in their church doing it. So those people, for example, might not have listed religion motivations only on a survey but it would still have been a contributing factor. I live in an extremely liberal area now but I'm still surprised by the number of non-secular homeschoolers I run into. They've been swamped by the crisis homeschoolers now, but it was more than I expected.

Well, they could solve that easily with some kind of written reference, an FAQ, or a spreadsheet. It's not that hard and would be enormously helpful to people just starting out.

That and the number of secular homeschoolers has been tiny compared to the number of evangelicals for years. The market is growing now though.

I hear you. It's a very human thing, what they're doing. The not open to discussion part, I think, is the most troublesome part of this. I feel they should be able to explain their reasoning when people ask.

Sure, I hear you. That was a choice I had to make because of my particular circumstances. It was that way for me.

I already mentioned my problem with the conversation MissLemon reported.

Yes, but there was a double standard, and the rationale was lame. In the content subjects, evaluating the author's beliefs makes sense, but evaluating the curriculum on its own merits (for nonsecular content) should take higher priority. Every time. I don't think I've ever, ever had to spend hours figuring out whether a curriculum is secular or not. Usually the website, samples, and author's bio taken together make it pretty clear. Then again, years ago I had to make the choice between using non-secular curriculum that worked for my son or secular curriculum that didn't. I chose education over ideology. Maybe that's a timesaver when researching curriculum. If I was absolutely against using any curriculum with the slightest religious influence, including the author's personal beliefs, I suppose it could take a lot more time.

So, an evolution free curriculum by a secular author is "safe" whereas an evolution free curriculum by a Christian author is presumably "unsafe". So they really do evaluate at least partially on the curriculum creator's personal beliefs. The line of thinking you describe explains pretty much everything I experienced. No wonder they come across as so arbitrary, they pretty much are. It's a pity they even felt like they had to rationalize that, but with the stance they are taking, I guess they have to. Pandia Press hasn't announced revisions to those science curriculum that I've heard; I bet Earth & Space is still the same.

Well there's that, and then there's all the rest too. That's the thing.

Patty Joanna, I agree with your overall point, except that our local parent partnership program will purchase from sites like Rainbow Resources or Memoria Press, as long as the actual materials are secular. Maybe this varies by state.

Yes, I've run local groups before and am the admin for our local FB homeschoolers group. It does take time!

You're in New York right? It's the same in Seattle. There are such a high volume of secular homeschoolers in the local groups that there isn't a need to branch out much. I stumbled across them by accident, realized that they were getting a high volume of newbies, and hung around to help out. But I see no reason to doubt her experience.

Well Btervet has said that they have a lot of influence on secular homeschoolers now, which I believe. They have influence in the same way the same extremely conservative groups do in that you might not agree with them, but you have to take them into account. And also what MissLemon said. The whole thing has made me question whether I can even describe myself as secular, which is insane. The extremism distorts conversation on the subject.

Well, I think it's unfortunate. There's enough polarization going on right now without secular homeschoolers jumping on the bandwagon. Secular purity is just as bad as religious purity. "You're not a real Christian, if you don't believe such-and-such." Now it seems like there's a secular homeschool equivalent to that. That's hardly something to celebrate.

Yes, I have no problem with the goal. And I've heard about the pressuring too. Not a positive thing.

No, I don't agree. IEW's core products are all secular and Rainbow Resources sells a wide variety of secular materials, including a secular all-in-one they created themselves.

Corraleno, you weren't privy to anyone else's experiences, were you? I tend to take people at their word, including myself. I think we are talking at cross-purposes here. No one, including me, is suggesting that no one is allowed to have something. Everyone is free to walk away from whatever group, conversation, etc., whenever they want to. Religious AND secular extremists are free to go their own way and have all the crazy, arbitrary rules they want to. It is a real positive though, when extreme groups on either side of the spectrum have a statement of faith and/or clear guidelines. If they don't want people to purchase from non-secular sites or have other extreme expectations, they should communicate that up front. I don't argue with religious groups with statements of faith because they make it very clear what they are all about.

Btw, I am relieved and somewhat gratified to announce that I've been kicked out of that group for asking those questions. They've saved me the trouble of removing myself. At this point I feel like it's a compliment. Here's the closest thing to a proud emoji. 😊 If the act of asking questions is enough to get me removed, it wasn't the group for me.

That's definitely the implication. Maybe they are getting overwhelmed like square_25 suggested. There is an arbitrary feel to many of the remarks. "We can't recommend/mention such and such curriculum now, but once the single non-secular resource is replaced, we'll be able to." Then they'll insist that the person who recommended it delete the remark or delete it themselves. It's like "the curriculum that must not be named" instead of a remark like "We consider this curriculum non-secular because of this, and this, and so we don't recommend it here."

There are some, but nothing that covers the kinds of questions I asked. For example, I was told before I asked all my questions that I couldn't recommend IEW products because some of them weren't secular and that I couldn't recommend Rainbow Resources for buying some curriculum because they weren't all secular. That kind of thing isn't listed in their guidelines. I got concerned about recommending some wonderful secular curriculum I know of simply because they are only sold on sites that also sell non-secular curriculum. It was a little crazy-making, so when the head of the group reposted the guidelines, I decided to inquire in more detail.

Well, the thing is, I am very interested in discussing homeschool curriculum and in helping out new people. I don't think it's unreasonable to have clear guidelines for doing so, or, since they are so particular, a list of which curriculum are banned and why. Especially when if a curriculum has one mention of God in the intro, a lot of people might not think it's an issue, or even, as in my case, remember that the mention is there. To me, a curriculum is about so much more than a single mention of God. But that's just me. They won't even let new people mention religious curriculum they've used when they are trying to ask about a secular equivalent. Different strokes indeed.