Thank you for posting the original links. This is helpful to me as now I can better visualize how my 7 year old is learning to read.

To respond generally to your post, I agree with you and with other previous posters that if you have a student who is expresses serious interest that you let their passions lead the way. If Becky the 11 year old wants to write research, help Becky write research--even if you, the teacher, find the writing odious. This is the best advantage of homeschooling--the student leading the charge to learn. And I'm all for it.

Lewelma, everything you just wrote about your approach to your kids' projects makes sense to me. I wish I could teleport you here to share your wisdom with the school.

That is a perspective that I had not considered. Thank you for posting. I have reflected several times during the course of this project on how you do science fair projects with your children. My daughter is curious about birds and would have loved to have spent time reading about them. She said she is particularly interested in learning how robins find earthworms in the ground. This obligatory, big-chunk-of-your-grade, parent-must-sign-contract science fair project required a testable hypothesis experiment and so while I know she could have found research on the bird topic utterly captivating, I didn't feel like she, er, we, er I could pull off some testable hypothesis with wild birds (except for maybe something like counting birds at the bird feeder.) Trying to get that idea off the ground seemed scary and hard to manage. Maybe we could have done something along those lines and had a great adventure together, but we were also saddled with this picky research paper. Also, the research paper had to be handed in before the beautifully organized testable hypothesis results poster. The deadlines loomed like dark clouds of doom. The school offered some limited classtime support for the paper, but everything else was to be managed, performed, decided at home. Her paper was wretchedly thought out and the teacher gave her a very nice grade. Perhaps all that truly mattered was the format. The other child I had in this school, after hearing about what was to be required, asked if he could stay home and only go back to school in mid-December once the science fair was over. This was not your typical (and expected) 10 year old boy grumbling-over-a-bit-of-necessary-homework, for which I would have prescribed the usual response of go-and-do-your-work; this was the quiet pleading of a young boy who knew he was going under. For that reason and because he had 1-3 hours of additional homework every night once he came home from school, we just went ahead and decided that we would bring him back home to homeschool. He then VOLUNTEERED to read about plant cells and happily built a model. At home. Something learned and a good time had by all. There is nothing about this science fair project, or writing this odious paper that is worth the price paid. And the parents who are having to do this project, uh, I mean, support their students in this project, know the truth. The fact that the parent is made to sign a contract is proof that this is a developmentally inappropriate project and that the school is relying on the parent to be the chief teacher, chief nag, chief organizer, chief doer of the science fair project and paper. Having lived through 13 11 previous elementary school science fair projects, I really thought I had seen the height of what a school could demand of kids and families. In those pre-homeschooling years, we even brought home some prize winners. Truly, those blue ribbons do seem to wipe away some of the anguish and strife of the experience. For about 10 seconds. This school just really takes it to a new level of ridiculousness. It's justified because "everyone else is now doing it too." And do you know how many scientists this is going to inspire? Probably not many And no writers, either. Just survivors. But we don't know that because there is virtually no research on the benefits or detriments of forcing this on kids.

I just read a book that makes several references to the zone of proximal development--Peter Gray's "Free To Learn." I thought his explanations of how the modeling of older children can help younger children learn new things in their zone of proximal development was very good. "Teach LIke A Champion" also has good info about "I/We/You" teaching technique. Several curriculums that I use are set up for good "I/We/You" support of the student--All About Spelling, WWE and WWS (which I have used in the past), FLL, Writing and Rhetoric from Classical Academic Press. I'm all for supporting kids and giving them some scaffolding to learn a new task.

Yep.

Write a short summary of a scientific process: photosynthesis Select a book or article Read this short book or article Outline the major points in your own words Use your outline to write a paragraph or paragraphs Reread and Edit In order for a student to do this assignment, she needs to know how to read, how to pick out main points and details, how to reform those points into her own words, how to handwrite or type out the information, how to form those ideas into a sensible whole in her own words, how to use a modicum of decent grammar and spelling, how to reread to catch errors. Write an APA formatted research paper on photosynthesis with footnotes and a bibliography using at least 3 sources Select your sources Read your sources Take notes on your sources in your own words; keep all that info neat and orderly with notes showing pages where information was located Think about what you want to say Write an outline about what you want to say Use your outline to write (type) Look up correct format or use a format generator on a computer Write (type) Add in footnotes as you type Keep writing (typing) Type your bibliography in correct format or learn how to use a generator Reread and Edit The student needs enough time to select and read multiple sources, take notes on all, keep notes straight, form notes in her own words. The student needs to know how to outline her ideas. She will also need to know how to put all the info from the different sources into a cohesive whole. The student must know how to type. The student must know or learn correct formatting. The student must keep track of all citations and footnotes and create a bibliography. The student must be able write with good grammar and spelling and be able to proofread.

It is partly out of my experience in using WWS to teach my two oldest children that I disagree with asking 4th, 5th and 6th graders to write formal research papers in APA format with footnotes and a bibliography. One of my primary objections is that doing so takes too much "support" from the adult. I think it takes so much "support" that the papers actually cannot get written by the average 4th, 5th, or 6th grader without adult intervention. From Writing With Ease: Strong Fundamentals, pg. 3 "It's not that they don't write. In fact, in an effort to solve the problem of poor writing skills, schools are giving longer and more complex assignments to younger and younger children. The theory is that the more writing children do, the better they'll get at it; as one proponent of it recently told me, 'Give the children high-interest assignments and have them write, write, write and revise, revise, revise.' FIrst and second graders are told to write journal entries; third and fourth graders are assigned book reports and essays. Fifth and sixth graders are given research papers. Meanwhile, writing skills continue to decline."

Indeed. My 6th grader wrote a very poorly thought out paper with perfect format and received an A.

I'm hopeful. I don't see the school making a change for this year, but I see an opportunity to open a dialogue. I know at least one of the teachers would likely agree with the idea that the research format isn't appropriate. If out out of this process of reading, learning and writing on the matter I can come to effectively articulate the value of a common sense approach, even without persuading other educators at the school, I don't think I'm just tilting at windmills. It will help me stay on a better track for educating the 5 children I have at home.

Thank you Renai

I don't think I can log in to see it. Do you have a title for the article? Maybe I can find it at my library on ERIC

I do think that 4th, 5th and 6th grade is too young for a research paper. My reasoning is that I don't see that their minds are able to easily synthesize info from multiple sources and put it together into a cohesive whole. I would think it was appropriate for a 5th or 6th grader to read a book or article on a science subject and make a short summary.

Someday someone is going to write this bombshell of a book or win a Pulitzer for an article called, "DEVELOPMENTAL READINESS: Let's Use Some Common Sense, People!"

Man, I like grammar. But after schooling six kids and seeing the results, (thus running my own meta-analysis) I am tempted to agree.

I've been trying to find books for "Presto! Get Your Fourth Graders to Write Research Papers," but I'm not finding that either. I've also spent several days researching elementary school science fairs. I can't find that the NSTA (National Science Teachers Association) even has a position on that. They have one e-book of compiled articles, some of which are 20 years old. I've run across a few magazine articles here and there cautioning or decrying obligatory testable hypothesis science fairs for children, but it's mainly opinion.

If anyone has helpful articles, book rec's, on either side of the issue, your suggestions of what to read would be so helpful. But if there really is a dearth of research in this area, then I guess it goes to best arguments. The common-sense arguments I've been considering against having young kids do research papers are the following: A child can be made to do a complicated research paper, but it requires so much adult intervention that it

If anyone has helpful articles, book rec's, on either side of the issue, your suggestions of what to read would be so helpful. But if there really is a dearth of research in this area, then I guess it goes to best arguments. The common-sense arguments I've been considering against having young kids do research papers are the following: A child can be made to do a complicated research paper, but it requires so much adult intervention that it reduces student ownership and responsibility. A child can write a poor paper, yet receive a good grade, then settles for the idea that she has written a good paper. Consequently, she does not progress in her abilities over the coming years. If a child can finish a research paper writing assignment, but went through high levels of stress, anxiety, worry, weeping to do so, then I think it is a bad idea to force children to do it. If students can first do formal research papers in high school and do them successfully, what is there to be gained by starting younger? Does starting younger guarantee a stronger writer later on? If current writers, including science research writers, managed to learn their craft without having to do a term paper in fourth grade, why do we think we will turn people into writers by forcing them into it at a young age? Just some thoughts.

The NLE provides many years of previous tests to download. I would simply print out several of those and let her try it out. Also, you can also sign her up for both the intro and the Latin 1. It's not like the tests take forever to take, so it isn't a problem to do both in one afternoon. I was glad we did the NLE last year. It was a great motivator. Hope that helps.

Where might I look for more arguments or research on the negatives of asking elementary or middle grade students to write research papers? SWB starts her introduction to Writing With Ease: Strong Fundamentals with a few pages explaining her position on the matter. I also have access to Teach Your Child Successfully by Ruth Beechick. Does anyone else have a source they would recommend? Or a source that persuasively argues for having younger students write research papers? I know that many, many schools have adopted this practice. I am curious if there is actually evidence based research that supports it. I've been homeschooling my tribe of kids for quite a while, but placed two of the kids in a school setting this year. At 5th and 6th grade (and also in 4th grade), they have been asked to write an APA research format paper on a topic of science with bibliography and footnotes as part of their science fair project. Once they complete the testable hypothesis part of the project, they are also supposed to write an abstract summary of both the paper and the project. I don't find this developmentally appropriate. I would like to find resources so that I can visit with the school about this, other than just expressing my common sense frustration about it. Thank you--

I know it's hard to hang on when a kiddo seems to trip up over the basics, but I've seen time and time again that the child will learn them. I gained more patience with the young readers when I saw how I kept stumbling over some basic Latin words...

"Oh, please, give me a slice of that chemical-taste box cake mix , slathered with Crisco frosting and decorated with hard-to-swollow fondant." Wedding cake is really not a good dessert. And I cannot fathom why bakers bake them. Most of the ones I've eaten are really, truly awful. As a chef, as an artisan, why would you want to put that much effort into something that doesn't taste that good? Kids take a lick of the frosting and the rest gets dumped into the trash. Adults scrape off the frosting, set the fondant to the side and then tell everyone how nice the cake is while they are actually thinking how gross it is. Wedding cakes are this tradition that we can't seem to let go of, even though most people don't love the cake. Next to the wedding rings, the cake is the biggest symbol of the ceremony--the symbol that says, "we celebrate with our community and our community celebrates with us."

If you just take off the knob, you don't have to lose the door. It's the knob and catch mechanism that makes the door able to slam. They would slam the doors...and then unfortunately, all too often, I would lose my temper over their slamming. Obviously we were all having some self-control problems. :)

We have solid wood doors and when they are slammed it is very loud. After many failed attempts to end the angry door slamming, I decided to remove the door knobs. After a week or so, the children invented a tool made of LEGOS that could be inserted (with patience, dexterity, and small fingers) into the recess where the catch would normally have gone. Thus, they creatively figured out how to give themselves desired privacy and I have not heard a door slam in 3 months. It was a win-win.

Sorry SWB. I didn't see your post.