Thanks, Tsuga. I know that professors probably get students arguing about grades often, so you're right ..... she doesn't want to sound like it's about the mark. And it isn't ..... she just wants a paper graded based upon what she wrote. Yes, Daijobu, it's what Katilac said ..... she needed 4 "editors" and she just happened to know a couple of English teachers who were willing to be two of them. They also had peer editing in class too, which honestly was completely useless, so having educated opinions was very helpful. Okay re: comma splices ......... Here is an example of one of them: Macbeth is ambitious and dauntless, credited for chasing the Norwegians out of Scotland, yet he is a moral recreant, his desire for kingship overruling his values and judgement. The professor has the splice between "Scotland " and "yet". In this case, I could see it being a matter of style, but I'm not an expert, just a grammarphobe. ;) Actually I just looked over the whole paper and while the professor had a note that she was generous with her grade in spite of the comma splices, she's only noted three in a 7 page paper. Again .... curious ..... Grantmom, it is somewhat unsettling, and you're right, the grading is very subjective. In the first week of class the professor said she wanted papers from the students that made her "feel something". If I was a student, that would make me nervous. I wouldn't know the professor, so how could I guess what would touch her emotionally? And something that would touch one person emotionally might not touch another in the same way. I often feel like you are having to spend so much time figuring out what each professor wants that it takes away from the learning. However, I think once you take a few courses, you get to know from other students who are the best professors and whom you might want to avoid. Jdalquist, my guess is that the professor read the paper and commented as she went. When she got to the paragraph about the anti-hero, she assumed that my dd was talking about Bilbo, when she actually wasn't. I can understand that, but when she read further, she should have noticed her mistake. Your example about the professor makes me shudder. It's interesting that some of the older professors complain about how few papers students write nowadays, yet the professors seemed swamped with what they have now. I wonder how they got it all done back then. Regarding, the citations there is not clarification in the instructions. The instructions say "books and articles" My dd is wondering if she didn't want internet sources, but again, that isn't clear.

We heard good things about the professor from the university staff but sadly looked up her ratings after my dd had already enrolled. There are a number of comments that she is a hard marker (which doesn't bother me). There were also comments that the students went in for help and never received any useful help from her. Everyone complained about her grading being too hard. There were quite a few irate students. My dd felt they were probably just students complaining but now she's been in the same circumstance and would concur with the comments. My dd worked SO hard in this course. She put hours and hours and hours in. The professor tells her how good a writer she is and her comments on other papers have been very positive yet her grade hasn't changed through the semester. She feels very discouraged. Personally, I feel that this professor think she needs to be really hard on her students and then somehow they will succeed whereas I just see a number of students who have lost some of their joy of learning. No one is getting good grades in this course. My dd has taken some very rigorous and sometimes frustrating courses, but she has never worked so hard and felt that she's received very little. I would not have an issue if this was a third year course, or even a second, but this is a first year course, with a number of high school students who should be mentored a little to help them along. There is a written syllabus and assignment details so that will help. Thanks for the suggestion. That's certainly possible, but the AP English teacher was very picky about structure. My dd will ask about the prof about it though, when she sees her.

There are a couple of places where the comma splice is apparent but there are other places where it isn't and the sentence appears to work just fine. I'm just running out now but I'll try to give you an example later, just for interest. It's not too big a deal, but one of the teacher/editors was rather annoyed about it. Regarding the citations, you would really agree?! If she asks for 3-5 but wants 5, why wouldn't she just put a minimum of 5? My dd actually went in to talk about her paper with the professor, during writing it, and she took some of her advice. They had even discussed the anti-hero, which makes the final comments on her paper even more puzzling. Thanks for your input, Tara.

Oh, thank you, that's excellent advice. I'll get her to copy it before she goes. I won't get her to address the comma splices with regard to mark but just perhaps for clarification, as what the professor is designating as comma splices isn't consistent. The citation instructions were written, so she has that to take with her. Thanks for all your help!

Thanks for your comments, Regentrude; I was hoping that you'd show up. My dd is going to take your advice and talk with the professor and we'll see how it goes. She did check everything with her teacher/editors and they are surprised as well and having seen the instructions believe she complied with them. The point about the TA is excellent and certainly a possibility. Thanks again!

My daughter is taking an English 103 course at a private university near us. Part of the course requires a huge research paper which is worth 35% of the mark. She was supposed to get 4 people to edit it and among them was two high school teachers, one who is very well-respected, very particular, and teaches AP English. Last week, she received her paper back from the professor and there are a couple of issues with it. Since it's her first university experience I thought I'd see if anyone has some advice to offer. First big issue: from the comments on her paper, it doesn't appear that the professor has read it. Her topic was how Tolkien made a different hero with Bilbo Baggins. She first explained the classic hero (ie. Achilles), then the anti-hero (such as present day Batman, etc.), then went on to describe how Bilbo was fully neither of these and that Tolkien crafted a completely different type of hero. The professor's commented on her paragraph about the anti-hero, saying that she shouldn't call Bilbo an anti-hero because he doesn't have any of the qualities of one, then she went on to mention some of his qualities. I was completely astounded because that was what my dd had put in her essay. There is a comment later too that leads one to suspect that she hasn't read it. So what should my dd do about this? Do professors regularly not read students' papers carefully? She's going to talk to her professor tomorrow, and we'll see but the professor is very tough and likes to announce that she received terrible grades in English because her teachers were hard on her and look where she is now. Overall this has been a very weird experience. Small issue: she was graded down because of "comma splices" but the professor's comma splice notations are not consistent. The English teacher said that he thought that was ridiculous in that comma splices are not technical errors but have to do with stylistic preference. When I look on the internet, it tends to agree with him. Another small issue: She was told to have 3-5 citations in the paper instructions, and used 4 but when she received her paper back the note was that she was 1 citation short. I wonder if the professor had 5 in her mind and didn't remember the instructions. In any case, my dd was marked down for all of these things. The main issue that is bothering me is that I've paid a lot of money for this course, she doesn't appear to have read the paper. It's also possible that the grade will affect my dd's scholarship opportunities but that isn't clear yet. Has anyone else had a similar circumstance and any advice as to what to do? Any help would be greatly appreciated!

Dante's Divine Comedy: As Told For Young People is an excellent introduction. The author is Italian and a poet as well, so for a short book he does a wonderful job of getting the nuances. As for reading the original there is a good thread dealing translations here: http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/258793-dante-best-translation/?hl=%2Bdante+%2Btranslations&do=findComment&comment=4513761 Find Ester Maria's comments. She's an expert.

One of my favourite series is How Artists See. There were instrumental in teaching my dd what types of themes, techniques, etc. to look for in paintings. I've also found that any of the art books published by Rizzoli are excellent as well.

The teachers do an excellent job of engaging the students. For example, they will ask basic questions which the student can either answer verbally, or type in the chat box. Sometimes they will ask if a student wants to verbally share what they typed in the chat box, but if the students says no, it's fine and the teacher simply shares it with the class. My dd says that they are also very good at getting a student to elaborate on their ideas. My dd may give an overview of a character and then they will ask her to contrast him/her to another character or even ask if it reminds her of a character in another book. That said, the teachers can only do so much. The student has to be willing to do their part and, as with anything, the more work you put into it, the more benefit you get out of it. My dd and I are always talking about the benefits of gaining knowledge (and character too) and the best courses to do that. If the parent is able to communicate the benefit the child will get out of the course, they will be more engaged with it. And, of course, it all depends on the age of the child. With a younger child, it's understandable that their attention might not be captured for 2 full hours, and I would definitely expect less of them. For my dd, who is in high school, I would certainly expect her to listen and engage. It's what's expected of students in university, and practicing these skills beforehand can only help them when they get there. :001_smile:

Good question. I know that they used to split it into two semesters, but this year they condensed it into a full-year. I did speak with them because my dd has some softball tournaments in April/May where she may have to miss a couple of classes and they were fine with it, but of course, I still have to pay. I would shoot them an e-mail. They are very good at answering. Another option is to do the full year. My dd started English 103 at the university and she's doing Center for Lit at the same time. It's just reading and discussing so she's not finding it overwhelming. In fact, it's something enjoyable in her ever increasing workload.

My dd is doing the Center for Lit high school British Literature course and absolutely loves it. The Andrews have a way of making books come alive. My dd just read Wuthering Heights and hated it, but after they did the discussion, she is quite excited about reading it again. Even though her basic dislike didn't change, the discussion brought out valuable points about the book which she can appreciate. The reading for the course is generally not too heavy, but there were a couple of books that did take some effort to get through before the discussion rolled around (for instance, she's reading Little Dorrit now). I did have to push my daughter to talk the first few sessions (we had an agreement that she'd say something 3 times per class), but now she's chatting away, and it's really wonderful. It's very good prep for university classes. I can't say enough good things about The Center for Lit classes!

My dd took OSU German Online for 2 years. On the plus side: 1. the program was created by a native German and you are always hearing native German speakers 2. it is equivalent to immersion, without being complete immersion. They try to do as much as they can in German, and I find the student progresses more quickly this way 3. there is the benefit of telephone conversations once per week On the negative side: 1. I found there was quite a bit of busywork. I really thought the language instruction could have been streamlined to get the same amount of information into the student without the copious amounts of paperwork. But then again, I think it would be equivalent to any public high school course 2. Because of the immersion factor, the teaching of grammar is rather haphazard. I did prefer the emphasis on the former, but would have liked some structure (a textbook, or textbook-like materials or something) for the grammar. Of course, one has to learn to be intuitive when learning a language, but eventually you're going to want to be precise too. I found it a little weak in the grammar instruction. 3. The telephone conversations are often with students. There are good students, but if you get one who isn't working for you, you may have to advocate a change. My dd had some good ones, and then ones that just asked her questions in English which was not what we wanted. All in all, I would say this course is very good for getting the students to quickly understand and start conversing in German. For a comprehensive course, though, I would recommend some support grammar books. These are pretty boring, but they'd do the job. I hope that helps!

You have some great recommendations for philosophy already, but I'm going to add Does The Center Hold? by Donald Palmer. It's quite well-respected and, I think, in about its 5th edition.

I have some lists on my children's blog which include books from many of the places you mentioned. The master list can be found HERE. I also have a chronological list in the works. This blog has been neglected last year but I want to give it some attention this year, for homeschoolers who need some help as they study these wonderful books with their kids.

My dd is in her 2nd year of Greek with Lukeion, has taken Meet The Romans and the Easter workshops, and The Muse on the Loose Greek Lit course. The Muse on the Loose course is absolutely excellent and well-worth the money. Dr. Fisher has high expectations with regard to the level of literature she exposes the students to, but is sensible in realizing their age and the content is geared to that. My daughter can have discussions about the thought of Aristotle and how it relates to Plato after taking her class! Honestly, the class is better than some university classes that I've attended as far as helping the student to absorb the information, which is the most important aspect of any course. She didn't find the workload too overwhelming either - very balanced. I can't recommend this course and Dr. Fisher highly enough! :hurray: Greek with Lukeion has been excellent, in that the student really moves along quickly in knowledge, and learns how to manage themselves and employ proper study habits for a high level course. However, the courseload is quite heavy and the student needs to be willing to put in a number of hours per week to study in order to do well. My one quibble is with their marking, or lack of it ....... my dd's homework and tests are often left for weeks unmarked, even though there are homework and tests every week, so it's difficult for the student to set up a pattern for reviewing what aspects they need more practice on. Yes, after the exams/homework are submitted, there are sample answers to look up, but then, IMO, the student is having to do the teacher's work in going through their own test and effectively "marking" it, which is not always easy because it can be subjective. I honestly think my dd could be scoring at least a couple of percent higher if the marking was done regularly. It does bother me somewhat because such a high standard is expected from the students that I'd like to see the same from the teachers/markers, however, the course itself is so good and you can see the wonderful progress with the student (if they put in time in) that that one aggravation is worth it for us. My dd quite enjoyed the workshops. I think because they are relatively expectation-free that it was relief after the intensity of Greek. She said she learned quite a bit in them. I wouldn't call them amazing, but they are good solid courses that definitely can be used for history. I hope that helps! :-)

The writing program my dd used (Classical Writing) did not require the student to generate original content early on, instead working with structure within well-written models. In hindsight, I think it was a brilliant method; the student is looking at both structure and content right from the beginning without being expected to generate it. First, the student works with manipulating words, then sentences, and can use all their energies for this purpose. Next they begin writing précis of the model, continuing to examine the structure of each. The program is focussed, but the student is often only dealing with one or two concepts at a time. By looking at the structure of good writing, from the very beginning, it really helps the student progress. Along with the writing portion, there is a literature component where the student is required to tackle some heavy-duty literature, but again in a way that is not overwhelming, exposing them to great ideas along with the writing. Without the student knowing it, these ideas can transition to their writing. (My dd just told me her writing program didn't require her to write a completely original essay until about grade 10. However all the tools were in place, so when she had to, it wasn't overwhelming.) One of the best exercises for generating ideas is reading classics and discussing them. Their themes and ideas are universal, yet each author is unique in presenting them. As for organizing ideas, it's not so clear cut. Yes, you need to be able to generate a basic flow of ideas for understanding, but I think one is always organizing and reorganizing ideas in improving their writing. My dd just turned 17 (grade 11) and is taking a university English 103 course this semester. Her writing is absolutely solid but she is still learning to organize her ideas, continually improving her communication of them. I think this is the same for all students. Where writing instruction goes off the rails is when students are required to learn, and therefore think of, so many different aspects at a time that it can become overwhelming. When this happens, the student can shut down and nothing goes in. I really love the one-thing-at-a-time approach of Classical Writing. We never did brainstorming or webs or games, she just was exposed to good quality writing and whether the student notices or not, they are definitely influenced by it. My advice? Don't overwhelm him and try to break it down for him, working on one aspect at a time. And have tons of discussion ....... again, an excellent way to generate ideas. Best of luck!

We went from Code Cracker to Elementary Greek (3 levels) and then to Athanaze through Lukeion. All great experiences. We did try to use Hey Andrew Teach Me Some Greek but switched to Elementary Greek, which IMO, is a much better program.

My dd is using the Center for Lit this year, taking the British Literature discussion only (not the writing component). It cost $340 for the year which is nearly half the price that her Greek costs for the year, so I thought that it wasn't too bad. It works out to about $17 per hour. This course has been wonderful for getting my dd speaking about books and digging deeper into what she's reading. And the freedom to simply read and discuss without having extra work has really helped to make the course enjoyable instead of a chore. She started a university English course in Jan. and her professor is so impressed with her ability to speak in class, and her insight into what she reads. It's not all Center for Lit, but they're a big part of getting her comfortable speaking in front of people whom she doesn't know. I did have to push her a little at the beginning, but she's loving it so much that she wants to take a couple of courses with them next year. So, for us, the value for the money was excellent.

And piggypacking on what Julie said, when my dd is driving me crazy in this area, I always have to remind myself that what is most important is her character. We all tend to get distracted with the academics and think that high grades and good universities are what is going to make our children most successful when really it boils down to character. If she's dependable, thoughtful, friendly, empathetic, etc., etc. those things will probably get her much further than an A in high school math.

You're right, Lukeion is VERY intensive. I do know that with Lukeion my dd is flying through Greek at a much quicker pace than when I tried teach it. However, she's also putting in hours and hours of work that she didn't before and not getting as much time with her other languages, so it's probably all relative. I really admire the level of education in Europe and all the languages the kids are/can be exposed to. When we were in France and heard what was being studied, it was about two years ahead of here. They seemed to focus less on "thrills" and more on actual learning, but their students were also more mature and they expected more from them. It was a real eye-opener. In any case, you sound like you have it all under control.

My daughter says that the Lukeion teacher tends to add grammar rules to the tests (prepared by Lukeion so you won't find them in Athanaze) which the book doesn't practice, or at least doesn't practice often. She did have a complaint with the book because she says it doesn't review well, but her teacher covers review in tests so in the class everything is covered well. She also says don't skip anything and feels that you need to commit a regular amount of consistent time to Greek to progress and learn it well. If you only need it to check off a credit, then it wouldn't be as important. I hope that helps a little and best of luck. Doing Greek on our own would make my knees knock together! :scared:

You've received so much good advice so I'll just give you sympathy. :crying: Honestly, I think part of it is the age. My dd sounds like the same as yours character-wise; sweet and thoughtful and just OH-SO-SORRY when she doesn't get her work done. Life is just grand and she flits around like a butterfly, but her attention and responsibility and focus flit along with her. I do see a good work ethic under there somewhere, so I believe with maturity, it will eventually take over. My dd plays high-level softball, but I make decisions, with regard to the sport, that make her life (work/study/sleep time) balanced and her mental acuity doesn't suffer. In any case, all the best, and I hope you can find a balance ....... and support!

Are you using the Donna Young schedules? I'm not sure if anyone else has mentioned this, but if you use her schedule, she'll tell you which words are needed to be memorized for the upcoming tests. The online practice is helpful but I find my dd retains better when she's memorizing off paper. She just took a few definitions at a time and then added to them. Right now, she's doing Apologia Chemistry and definitions that she memorized for Physical Science are coming back to her. I know it's work but the practice of memorization can be valuable when your dd hits university. My dd is taking her first university course this semester and is realizing that being exposed to work at a higher level in hs, has really helped to make her university experience much easier. I hope you find a balance that works for you both. We've been frustrated too with certain courses and know what it feels like! :cursing: ;)

Those schedules look good. My daughter is using Athanaze with the Lukeion Project. I know the teacher adds to it though. If you want any more information, yet me know and I can ask her what she thinks. Right now, she's finishing up book 2 of Athanaze.

You might want to check out the Journey and Destination blog. She is homeschooling using the CM Method and her blog is excellent. She reviews books as well so you have to find the homeschool posts, but she gives some very helpful detail.