abrightmom
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Posts posted by abrightmom
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5 hours ago, PeterPan said:
I still don't get why you're asking if the methylphenidate is appropriate. That's what the low epinephrine, etc. labs were telling you. It's totally indicated. The question is only how you want to treat the depression and anxiety the ped seems to be identifying. I would download the raw results of your genetic testing and load it to other places and run it through stuff yourself.
I'm not entirely sure WHAT the methylphenidate is targeting. I mean, it is for ADHD but it does something to his brain and that's what I want to figure out. Does he need it? It sounds like it might be just the thing for him. I'm still learning. :) If the lab results support using the methylphenidate then it makes sense to me to try it. It didn't make sense to ME to try it based on a doctor diagnosing my son with ADHD based on a paper questionnaire I filled out. *I* believe he has it based on my years with this kid but putting a pharmaceutical into play is more significant for me. I also don't believe the MEDS are going to fix the SCHOOL problems in terms of his writing issues. I believe we're looking at dysgraphia/written expression disorder and his EF issues. I do believe that if the meds are the right fit for him then it could EASE everything in a way that would allow him to remediate/learn/grow where he is at with written expression. The school stuff is so frustrating. He is flat out failing the CS Lewis class and English is going down. He is even losing steam with Biology; he was loving it when he's motivated by what he's learning he seems to perform better. Now they're learning about a topic he HATES and is frustrated with (he calls it tripe) and he rants about what a waste of time it all is.
On a positive note they just finished their theater production of A Midsummer Night's Dream. It was performed in a beautiful park amphitheater and it was POURING. He was fantastic as Oberon and I saw so many social positives for him. It exhausted him and he has nothing left for homework. I don't have the drive to hold him to it. The school doesn't really give the kids room to turn things in late if they're in theater and it is dress rehearsal/performance week. That bites.
I don't know. My head is spinning. THANKS for working it through with me.
We didn't discuss depression or anxiety!!!! It would be weird for him to treat something we've not discussed or diagnosed. So, maybe there are other uses for those supplements?
We did 23andme but the results won't be back for a few weeks yet.
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On 4/14/2018 at 5:06 AM, PeterPan said:
I'll bite. What were the supplements? Were they run of the mill vits or anything interesting?
It looks like he's using the phenethylamine levels to confirm his diagnosis of ADHD, which is interesting when you think about it. Just looking at it briefly, it seems like using the methylphenidate, especially if time-released, would be much safer than the supplements (PEA) people are taking. And given that he gave you a scrip for it, looks like that's what he's thinking. So that's why I'm curious what the supplements are meant to do. :)
What is PEA?
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22 hours ago, PeterPan said:
If it matters to the op at all the thing I found most compelling at this age, when we were thinking through meds, was the driving issue. Someone else had a thread a few years ago where they said the stats on unmedicated ADHD drivers were TERRIBLE. Much, much higher risk of accidents. And after I thought about what I had seen over the years, I realized it probably was true, sigh. Given that he's 15, driving will probably be on your radar.
It does matter! He isn't interested in getting a permit yet. :) I'm paying attention to those stats and taking them seriously.
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22 hours ago, Pen said:
PeterPan -- I'm also in Oregon. PS allows concurrent enrollments for for homeschoolers to have IEPs. If homeschoolers choose not to go that route they can have a PEP Private type EP which is paid for and administered privately. I don't know about private school - public school overlaps with IEPs. But to me the most obvious thing seems to get the boy on to the ADHD medicine the Doctor prescribed. Or are there some major reasons not to do that I don't know about. I tend to be a pharmaceutical avoider, but in this casethe already prescribed pharmaceutical still seems to be like it would be the route I'd take.
Pen,
What is a PEP Private type EP? I am investigating IEP and 504 here; our private school would heed them but they don't help us get one. I don't even know how it works! Our private school recommended that I talk to the public school district about an IEP. I think we need a more definitive diagnosis and I'm certain I'll get one. He's dealing with something in the arena of dysgraphia or written expression disorder or a specific learning disability. I think the specific learning disability is an umbrella for a variety of disabilities.
I have contact info for the director of the special education services for our district. That's item number 1 on my to do list for Monday. :)
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On 4/14/2018 at 5:06 AM, PeterPan said:
I'll bite. What were the supplements? Were they run of the mill vits or anything interesting?
It looks like he's using the phenethylamine levels to confirm his diagnosis of ADHD, which is interesting when you think about it. Just looking at it briefly, it seems like using the methylphenidate, especially if time-released, would be much safer than the supplements (PEA) people are taking. And given that he gave you a scrip for it, looks like that's what he's thinking. So that's why I'm curious what the supplements are meant to do. :)
Doctor and I have yet to chat; he'll be back Monday and has some questions that I relayed to the nurse. Hoping for some clarification on what these results mean and why he is recommending certain supplements. I also asked if the methylphenidate is appropriate according to these test results.
The nurse told me the dr. recommends adult doses of Vitamin C, SamE, tyrosine and theanine. IDK why though :).
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The urine neurotransmitter lab results are in. I don't know what these markers or ranges mean yet. The doctor recommended some supplements. I asked him if the methylphenidate prescription is the right one based on these results (we have it but haven't filled it). They will send me a report and a copy of all of the results next week.
Norepinephrine is low. His is 12.3. Their normal range is 17-90. It is implicated in ADHD.
Epinephrine is low. His is 1.5. Their normal is 1.5-20. I read that people with ADHD have higher Epinephrine. ?
Phenethylamine is low but I didn't catch the numbers. I DID research this and found that it is a biomarker for ADHD.
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Okay, so the educational therapist has a great reputation in our community and I have no worries about their motivations. I'm not set on anything at this point! Just taking it in, weighing it out, and continuing to look around for the right PERSON whether that is a neuropsych or not. My health insurance is slightly whacked and even with a billing code could not tell me whether or not the services I desire are covered (the educational testing that psychologists perform). I do not have any personal recommendations from anybody that I know or from any circles we run in so I'm flying blind. There ARE people I can go see; some of the pediatric neuropsych groups have a minimum 6 month wait here. I haven't called the one my pediatrician recommended. He did NOT bring up ASD and neither did I. The appt. was fast/furious and focused on ADHD and how to manage it in the classroom. The answer was low dose meds so he wrote a prescription which I have. He also recommended the genetic testing and we did both tests. Results take several weeks and we are 2-3 weeks into the wait. We did a urine neurotransmitter test and the 23andme. 23andme has to be run through some sort of website .... we will have a follow up with the doctor after the results come in for both of those.
He was NOT a stellar student before. In 8th he had a TERRIBLE time with schoolwork at home. We dropped all of his classes except for his English class through Wilson Hill Academy and his Algebra class. He needed a lot of help/input with both. It was during that time that I first sought an appt. to have him evaluated for ADHD. I called in the fall of 8th grade and wasn't able to get in with the pediatrician who evaluates for ADHD until several months later. Even then, I didn't leave understanding what I was dealing with. I understand it much better now. Admittedly, I was very ignorant.
I hear you on the social thinking (and there IS a social thinking trained gal in our area who is also an autism specialist). It's not off of my mind or a lower priority!! I DO hear the concern about future employment and the need for the social skills to improve. I AGREE with you on that. While I'm trying to figure out who can do an evaluation (and then waiting around the months to get in) I do have access to some helps locally. His school recommended the educational therapist; her little group of ladies services our community here and they come highly recommended. I only had to pay $5 for the testing materials and she spent a lot of her time with us in the testing and in the follow up to discuss the results. His working memory is extremely low and that IS a concern and fits well into the ADHD diagnosis. So, it makes sense to me to address THAT if I can although I agree with you that it's a lot of $$ that could be better spent elsewhere. Here's the thing though! If it improve his working memory is that worthwhile?!? It's such a critical thing and I've watched it plague him his entire life (I didn't realize what I was dealing with; I feel horrible about it). CogMed seems to be expensive and it doesn't have good reviews so I took that off of my list. Her recommendation for rhythmic writing is similar (or perhaps the same) to what Dianne Craft models on her Smart Kids who Hate to Write DVD; it address visual motor learning which my son is LOW on and has been for years (showed up on two other tests when he was 8 and 11). ADHD has social stuff with as well as difficulties with written expression. The more I'm learning the more I see that ADHD is the bucket into which everything can be tossed.
I've been desirous of a neuropsych evaluation for a long time; it frustrates me that it I can't get a straight answer from the insurance company! I've had some decision paralysis due to not knowing WHO to go to! Our insurance is also changing in the next month or so. I am NOT off the trail though and I am confident that we'll end up with someone somewhere. I have a lead on a group here that MIGHT open a door for us (and was recommended by the pediatrician); also considering our local university. The behavioral health clinic offers testing but I don't know that we'd see someone with a lot of experience. Price is right but if I don't have that expert who can pick apart the little things then it might not be worth it.
Type of AssessmentCost
Assessments that take 2-4 hours to complete, such as:
- Intelligence testing (i.e. IQ only)
- Single personality assessment (i.e. MMPI only)
- Dementia Screening
- ADHD screening (only useful to RULE OUT ADHD)
$125
Assessments that take 4-8 hours to complete, such as:
- ADHD evaluation
- Learning Disability assessment
- Comprehensive Personality assessment
$200
Assessments that take 8-12 hours to complete, such as:
- Combination Learning Disability, ADHD assessment
- Neuropsychological assessment
- Comprehensive Personality and Intelligence assessment
$350
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1 hour ago, PeterPan said:
https://www.socialthinking.com/Articles?name=Social Thinking Social Communication Profile
In a clinical setting the ADHD and ASD kids merge for social thinking, at least on the level your ds is functioning at. It basically won't matter whether you call it ADHD + social delay and anxiety or ASD. Same materials, same approaches. The ADHD kids just pick up the clue phone a lot faster.
What you might do is go through the Social Thinking book listings on their site, see what they recommend for his age, and see what's calling to you. That's going to tell you a lot. Also, it's typically an SLP doing the social thinking intervention, so they could see what's going on with the writing issues you were talking about.
For the EF stuff, if he doesn't want to work with you, the person you're looking for is an educational therapist. There's a certification process for them. They aren't everywhere, but if you find one they might be rocket fuel. Otherwise, just see what you can find. Sometimes you'll find psychs who specialize in ADHD who do CBT. The ed therapist will have a lower pricepoint maybe. Just varies.
I love the stuff on the social thinking site. I did read through that entire article and I believe he fits their Weak Interactive Social Communicator (WISC) group to a "T".
The gal I met with who performed the PACE testing IS an educational therapist and she has been through the certification process. They're crazy busy here! Her cost is $40/hr and we're discussing options. She needs to meet with him 3-4x a week and I do the other 2-3 hours of work. The goal is 60 hours inside of 12 weeks (according to the PACE program).
Is an SLP a speech-language pathologist? Maybe I already asked this; I'll scroll up.
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Thanks for the insight and cautions! They are worthy of consideration.
Pen, ASD was on MY mind for some time due to his social difficulties and a suggestion made by his grandma. The more I have studied ADHD and learned about it I think that he is dealing with that plus social anxiety. I do doubt myself though and at times wonder if there is more (ASD, giftedness, etc.). I don't think he's gifted because I don't see any area of giftedness. However, I don't know what I'm looking for and I've been told that if he is 2E then his giftedness is masked. Clearly, he has some learning and brain development issues. This compels me to want more evaluations that could uncover some clue. I just want to do the right things to help him manage! :) He hasn't had any thorough evaluation yet! He's been seen by the pediatrician twice and tested by this educational center that serves the schools in our community.
I *think* he would benefit from some type of cognitive therapy (not sure if that is the name), occupational therapy (retained reflexes), nutritional/medical interventions and social thinking counseling/training. My confidence wavers though.
THANKS for connecting me to the Gibson test information! I haven't purchased Lavoie's book but I started looking at his You Tube videos yesterday. It's on my list :).
You all have been incredibly kind and helpful! Thanks so much.
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A bit of an update: (THANK-YOU for the incredible feedback! What a blessing to me!)
The test results for the "cognitive test" show that my son's working memory is low. The learning center that serves the schools in our community used a test called PACE. The tests are from the Gibson Cognitive Test Battery. I have no idea what that is! His working memory was -4.3 below his age. He also showed a lower than average logic and reasoning score but I don't know what this is. The descriptor says: to reason and solve spatially defined problems which require high level conceptual abilities. ?? He was high in visual processing, word attack and auditory analysis and "on age level" for processing speed, selective attention and spelling.
The results are unsurprising and do confirm the ADHD issues.
They recommend the PACE program; it's some sort of brain therapy that is intensive. The cost is $300 for the kit plus $40/hr for a 60 hour program (and some at home work). That's about $2700. They also recommend he follow that up with something called Rhythmic Writer (still need more info on this) and then Cog Med for a year. I know nothing about Cog Med however I've noticed that some say there isn't evidence that these brain training therapies do much for kids. DO THEY? Are they worthwhile? Life changing? Helpful? I don't know what to think or do at the moment.
He is getting an F in the C.S. Lewis class; it's possible we can squeak by with a C- in English but it could become a D without the research paper project. The school wants him to stay and I don't want to homeschool him. However, my son needs time to right the ship! He may need therapies that take time, energy and money. He won't have all of his 9th grade credits. He isn't going to be any more skilled in English and it will be the same teacher throughout the years. Despite his struggles and the apparent Honors level work being assigned the majority of the freshman class (15 students) are doing very well (this is what I was told and I believe the teachers!).
He has an appt. with a PT who, if I'm understanding correctly, works with kids with ADHD and other developmental disorders. I want to investigate retained reflexes with the therapist so that is what we will do.
I don't yet have any other testing scheduled but I'm working on that. We live in a university town and there is a Behavioral Health Clinic that does a battery of tests for a low cost. I don't know how skilled or experienced they are but for the price and location I will try this route FIRST. Finding an available and specifically skilled psychologist is proving difficult.
My mind and heart is telling me that he needs an unconventional year; a gap year of sorts in which he finishes freshman work and does some of his 10th grade work. He can focus on therapies, testing as needed (depending on our timeline for getting to it), some personal pursuits (to fill his heart tank), counseling (he needs this), social thinking (hoping to find this) and life skills (I need margin in my life to help him; he is almost completely dependent on me and I'm spread so thin with all of the kids and a husband who is away a lot).
I read SWB's new book "Rethinking School" and it has challenged me to rethink school. ;) I am not very courageous but no matter what I do this son cannot stay on the traditional track. :)
I am so tired. :)
I have no idea how to edit my Signature since the update :).
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Has he ever been seen by an OT? Or had his reflexes checked?
I had always assumed my kids were fine physically and was shocked when I saw how they responded to the OTs retained reflexes test. One was easily fixed (for lack of a better word) and many inattentive type issues and the distractedness and anger have greatly diminished as his body and brain are working better together now. The other one is getting there. It’s been an interesting journey, and has explained so much. I enjoy sitting in on the Therapy and as he/his body reacts, she explains what is going on.
This fascinates me!! I'm going to look into it. No, he's never seen an OT but I'm curious. THANKS!
ETA: Looked this up. Wow! There is something to this ... he didn't crawl. He has all of the symptoms associated with Symmetrical Tonic Neck Reflex, which is connected to crawling on the hands/knees:
- poor posture
- tendency to slump when sitting, particularly at a desk
- poor hand-eye coordination
- messy eating
- clumsy
- problem catching balls
- slow at copying from blackboard
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I guess my concern would be if they're shooting over his head in 9th, how much are they going to be shooting over his head by 12th? Is some of that stuff (that could be coming up in later grades that might not fit) skippable?
Like say everyone has to have a senior project and has part of that they have to write a 10 page paper. I'm just making this up. Well you might look ahead and go that will never be a good fit, and see a list of things like that over the years, and go ok, pull the plus on this, we're done.
I don't know, just thinking out loud. Was the CS Lewis thing *elective* or required?
Required.
He asked me about that. He was concerned about not being able to do the writing in future years. It is a concern which is why I'm HOPING they will allow us to rock the boat and be part time enrolled. I'd like him there for several classes. We live half a mile away so the drive is 6 minutes round trip. It would be a cinch to drop off/pick up at intervals if needed and that is FAR easier than homeschooling him and having him home all day. I don't know if they'll do it though; currently they don't. ;)
He NEVER has Spanish homework and is pulling an A, he has a solid A-/B+ in Geometry (says it's too easy) and has occasional homework, no homework in Bible (A), occasional homework in Biology (A-/B+), PE is an A (he likes their PE; gets a good workout), English was a B 2nd quarter and he survived the writing; the assignments have been harder this quarter (linked to literature and the research project); the C.S. Lewis class is required by their school. I think it should be a junior or senior class though!
I think the research paper thing is a monstrous project for 9th graders who are still in puberty. The requirements are heavy and the data packets/notes they are giving him is an overload. Credible/Non-credible sources, plagiarizing, MLA format, research proposal, outline, 8 sources (two books, 1 database through library, others are your choice), in text citations, footnotes, bibliography, minimum 25 notecards, 4-6 pages. The topics were tough too! It's hard to have a challenging topic and then wade through so much data looking for quotes or research that you understand and then know should go into your paper!! *I* would have a TOUGH time with this assignment. I'd be stressed the entire time. STRESSED. The Symposium, which follows the research paper (and presents the findings), has stringent requirements; extremely detailed. I didn't do anything like it in college. I won't bore you with the details but I felt like I was reading a college syllabus. ??? The teacher is lovely but maybe asking too much of freshman. I think it is a fabulous school and an amazing community. I'm so so so sad. My next kid in line, DS13, would LOVE to be in school but he would literally DIE in this English class no matter how hard we work on literature and writing in the next year.
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I didn't realize the CS Lewis was a separate class from the English class. I guess you need to find a way to get that accommodated or dropped also. What are all his classes this year?
My son is in 9th grade at a brick and mortar small rural public school and we know some of what other 9th graders he was in school with in past are now doing at much larger urban public schools, including one which is near the state flagship University and has most of the professor's kids. As well, have some idea of what the school in NYCity I graduated high school from, which is a school for gifted children does. Putting that all together, while I don't know what the average quality of the papers that get turned in, the essays that get done at your son's school are, just in terms of the assignments, I think they sound unusually difficult, or maybe even to put it more strongly, they sound out of line for anything other than maybe an honors English in an IB program. In fact they sound somewhat more like what I had at AP level English myself.
Our little public school has only one 9th grade English class and everyone does the same thing, pretty much (unless they won't be getting a regular diploma). There are 4 books read during class and discussed which have short answer written questions and sometimes presentations have to be done on these orally. Plus I think they read some current events publication and have to do things related to that. There are short writing assignments in class, or rarely as homework (one of which required a little research and a thesis statement--but they got help with that in class as part of the process). The main required writing is that 4 books have to be read independently and a 2-3 page review/report has to be written about each book (one each quarter). The protagonist and antagonist and main supporting characters have to be described, the setting has to be described, the plot has to be summarized. A theme has to be identified and discussed. The first time my son had trouble with it, but the second time knowing what the written work at the end would have to be a book was chosen that leant itself to the format and it went easier. He's now on the third time through the same sort of process and it is getting a bit easier to do now, I think. No footnotes etc. are required. Finally, one of the writing assignments done during the year will have to be worked on and revised and improved, student's choice which they want to spend more time on, as the last writing project of the year.
At the big public school by the Uni, there are classes that can fulfill the English credit by doing creative writing, journalism, and even one that combines PE (not your son's thing I now understand but still just to illustrate a difference) with English--where they may do something like go for a hike, and write about the hike; try a rock climbing wall, and write about that, etc. No doubt the honors English does more, but it is possible to get an English credit with far less intensely academic writing than your son is being required to do. And I'm not even sure that the honors English for IB program does actually require that much of 9th graders.
So helpful! Thanks. It actually makes me feel a little better as a Mom and it helps my son to know these are especially challenging assignments!
I do wonder what other students are turning in. I really do wonder.
He has Spanish, Geometry, English, C.S. Lewis (first semester was Freshman Seminar; they did study skills, which he missed, and then a quarter on public speaking which he survived), Biology, OT Survey and PE.
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Also, I have another son who does not have NVLD or the other issues DS13 has.
DS12 has trouble with rigid thinking, though he does not have autism. When faced with something in school that is hard for him, he freezes. His mind just can't work, and he will balk and say that it is impossible or just "I don't know" when we try to talk him through it.
It has been a huge, huge problem, and it took us years and some private evaluations and the help of his teachers to figure out the root issues and how to handle them. He has a 504 now.
In his case, the root causes are EF and inattention (though not enough to get an ADHD diagnosis, in his case) and anxiety.
Anxiety is a big one. And I didn't realize it, and I would have done so many things differently with him when homeschooling, if I had.
As long as he is is a state of anxiety and is stuck, he cannot make progress on whatever he is meant to be working on. As in, he just cannot, no matter how much the teacher or we at home try to work with him or explain it. The anxiety shuts him down, and we've learned we have to wait for the anxiety to pass before trying again. I used to try to make him push through it. And do you know how many times that was successful? Yup. Never.
I wonder if anxiety is playing a role in your son's feelings of failure and impossibility.
I've not considered anxiety. But rigid thinking certainly sounds familiar!! He does shut down and it's just as you describe. Pushing accomplishes nothing but a melt down. He becomes distraught. He can't come back to it though; he's done as far as these writing projects are concerned. The decision has been made by him. He says there is no way he can do them and even if he made an attempt it would be so poorly done it wouldn't be worth the work or stress to get such a bad grade. His thinking makes sense! I mean, I really really get it.
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By the way, the fine and gross motor issues suggest dyspraxia to me. DS has that diagnosis as well (and many others). You could get an OT to evaluate him.
Did he have speech delay as a toddler?
No speech delay! Highly verbal; precocious.
He didn't crawl. He did a weird thing we called a 'hitch' and he drug himself army style. But he never crawled. I don't know if that matters.
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Urine neurotransmitter thing? I'm all ears. I did the 23andme testing on my kids, so that's what I've been pouring through. I recently started 5HTP myself (shhh) and it is the most glorious stuff ever. I had no clue I could feel that way. And if I didn't have the genes, I'd think ok it's just a patch, you're just a whiner, blah blah. But when you look at that gene you realize anybody who is homozygous is DOOMED and it's just no wonder I felt the way I did, lol.
What product did you buy and what dose? I read someone on the board here saying she's taking 600mg. That was with genetics in-hand to know there were significant issues. I'm taking 200mg time-released twice a day. I can actually feel it wear off. A 15 yo might not be self-aware enough. I'm not sure I'd want a straight dose. I'm really keen on the time-release.
The urine neurotransmitter thing is a Neurotransmitter analysis that is done from a urine sample. It looks at Serotonin, GABA, Dopamine, Norepinephrine, Epinephrine, Glutamate, Glycine, Histamine and Phenethylamine. NO CLUE about most of those but he showed me a colorful chart and talked about the neurotransmitters that are not working right in ADHD and the ones that aren't working right in depression. He said this test can help eliminate guesswork with meds.
It's $191 which isn't bad. We collect a urine sample. Prior to the sample he takes no meds or supplements and avoids certain foods (some produce, cheese, wine, nuts). It's a morning sample. You freeze it and Fed Ex picks it up after we pack it all up according to their directions. We fill out paperwork and then we'll get the test results in a few weeks. I think we get the fancy colorful chart with my son's neurotransmitter profile. I'll have the doctor help me sort it out. We did the prep today and he won't eat any of the offending foods. :) He is going to pee in the cup Sunday morning! LOL.
23andme is in the mail.
I don't know anything about 5HTP.
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Well that sounds like it might be a STELLAR resource. And maybe let her refer you to a psych for the ADOS and let a psych help you sort it out. It matters but it doesn't matter. Severe ADHD merges into ASD, and the social thinking interventions for ASD and ADHD can be the same. The ASD kids just need a lot longer to get it to click. Some ADHD kids get a short dose and they're like oh, epiphanies.
So yes, that's an awesome find! Keep us posted on what you find out! :)
Well, this encourages me to follow through. I have a few phone calls to make. They are hard for me! It's out of my comfort zone but I am learning to advocate for my family. It's been a good school for me. I will update! It's wonderful to have people to talk with.
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Also, you might look into the TPH2 gene and whether he'd benefit from some 5HTP. There's some research about a high percentage of kids with ASD having tryptophan issues, enough that they wondered if it was a biomarker. If he's having depression and anxiety, maybe some 5HTP would help with that, making everything else a bit easier. If you do 23andme testing, it will run that gene.
I ordered that for him. We're also doing a urinary neurotransmitter thing. It might help us determine if meds will help.
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There is a practitioner on that list who is less than an hour from us. She is a licensed professional counselor. I don't know how that is different from a psychologist or psychiatrist. She is also an autism specialist. :) I really really don't think my son is on the spectrum. I did for awhile ... but I think there are other answers for his struggles.
I can call that woman's number and ask about what she does with her Social Thinking training.
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No advice on the diagnosis, but just agreeing with some of the previous posters -- that writing is excessive and excessively hard for ninth grade. My dd had EF issues and possibly undiagnosed Inattentive ADD (looking back at some of the signs, which she share shares 80 percent of with your son!). She still did reasonably well in school, but only starting around 10- 11th grade. She spent most of her middle school lying on the floor sobbing over any project (always the projects, never the regular assignments, which to be honest she mostly just didn't do anyway), She didn't have to do any extensive research project until 12th grade, AP Lit. She would not have had the skills or the EF ability in ninth.
My daughter actually loves to write (though she was really quite terrible at essay writing until she got to college and started reading other essays and getting better guidance from the TA's). My daughter hated math and thought she was terrible at it. Until she got herself out of her funk (10th-11th grade) she just barely passed every year. It is really hard to do something well if you hate the subject and find it pointless.
He has liked writing in the past. I don't want him to hate it or to think he's a failure. He now does think he can't write. It's been a huge downer.
What did you do with your DD in the writing area in high school? Before she was out of her funk ... How did she do in 9th if she was still really struggling? Did you work with her struggles so she could survive?
Do you really think those are tough 9th grade assignments? I was thinking that but doubted myself. They overwhelm me. I can't imagine being in school all day and then having to work on those at home. Thankfully, they don't bring home gobs of homework in this school! He almost never has math homework (2x a week maybe) and he never studies for math tests. In fact, he rarely studies for any tests. My guy just won't study. ?? He'd rather just "wing it". Sigh. He tends to do well on tests and is content with A-/B+ on tests.
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Alternately, see if you could get an SLP trained in Social Thinking and let the tutor him this summer. Maybe they could get enough into his brain that things could click.
What is an SLP?
Social Thinking has been on my radar for awhile. I'm working on it ... I wanted to attend the conference! They are sold out. I know I already said that but I'm miffed. I really wanted to go!!!
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The thing is, if there are EF issues and no language issues, the child can get out the writing with the addition of EF supports. EF supports are a normal, common, run of the mill thing to make happen. The teachers can do that.
What you're describing is different. You're describing a child who, even with EF supports, is not able to get it out, blood from turnips and all that. That's a language issue and that's the autism.
He hasn't had any EF support as of yet! Unless I'm not clear on what that would be. He's not being medicated and we haven't made any accommodations like shorter assignments, more time, etc. We are going to work on that.
I'm also thinking that the assignments ARE especially challenging which adds to the overwhelm. They are just too advanced.
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Storygirl, thank-you for sharing your children's strengths and weaknesses with writing. It's quite helpful! Analyzing and filtering and processing takes a lot of time! The discussion is giving shape to my thoughts about what is going on with my son in English. I think the writing expectations are STRONG in my son's school and I've wondered what they do in the middle school years to prepare them for high school.
The kind of writing you describe is hard for DD16, who does not have learning disabilities but has always been a weaker writer. She lacks things to say. Or she writes and writes but says the same thing four times with a lot of extra words that add no significant meaning. It's just hard for her. She happens to be at a private Christian school that is not what I would consider rigorous for language arts, but her teacher does give writing assignments that challenge her. Despite what I consider lower writing skills, DD gets A's in the English class, so I think compared to her peers, her writing may not be as weak as I thought. (I also think her class is what would be considered an average English class, not in any way an advanced class).
So Pen's point that this type of writing is just difficult for young teens really could be correct. It sounds like the classwork expected in your son's school tends to require more advanced skills. If your son is an average writer for his age but is in a class and/or school that expects advanced work, that could be the source of the struggle.
**I do agree with Pen and I have suspected this all along. If I put that together with his executive function deficits (he's always had those and they're maddening at times) then no wonder he has come to a screeching halt and has declared he cannot do these writing assignments. I asked him how he would be doing right now if we took away the C.S. Lewis Essay Exam and the Research Project and he said things would be fine. It is all about the major writing assignments and overwhelm.
On the other hand, the trouble with connecting ideas together to write about them in a meaningful way can be a writing disability. Seeing connections between ideas can also be difficult for students with autism. I heard an interview on our local NPR station last fall, and the person noted the difficulty that people with autism have in detecting patterns, which affects their communication skills across the board, both in academics and in interactions.
Executive functioning also plays a part in understanding relationships and patterns and logical progressions.
So, since you kind of suspect there could be autism and know that there are EF issues, it's possible that the difficulty with writing could be related to those root issues.
He does have trouble connecting ideas. I think he can do it but it is a weakness. He was not able to answer some of the weekly CS Lewis questions and other weeks he was able to answer them. I looked for patterns and asked him why some were more accessible. He told me that it depended on the question. Anything that asked him to compare what Screwtape said to the Bible's teaching was difficult. I found that odd since he's grown up with the Bible and has a good handle on what it has to say about major themes. His struggles with that caused more confusion for me.
Also, DS13 (the one with NVLD) was given SLD writing as an area of disability in his neuropsych evaluation a few years ago. But he also has strengths in writing. He can do creative writing and create personal narratives. DS is better in these areas as well. He has notably more difficulty with expository writing and assignments that require him to do research. DS also. He has trouble answering short questions on tests where he has to explain the significance of historical events or explain why a science experiment worked, for example. DS is hit/miss in this area. He would struggle with the historical significance question but probable be able to explain why a science experiment worked. I think. Pulling thoughts together in his mind and putting them into words to answer any kind of critical thinking question is very difficult and sometimes impossible for him. Lots of resistance to critical thinking with my DS. Practicing it is helping though; he's grown a little in this by having to do it. He is unable to do almost any sort of literary analytical thinking (and therefore, as determined by his IEP placement, he will not be in the mainstream classroom for English when he is in high school). I'm perplexed by my DS in this area. He loves to read. He says he understands what he's reading but *I* don't think he can do literary analytical thinking. I do think it is difficult for him. This area is uncertain for me. He resists answering questions or engaging in discussions about literature. ***Is your son's struggle related to NVLD? I believe my son does NOT have that and while he has some markers for autism I really really think he isn't on the spectrum. I think it's something else ...
This difficulty with connecting thoughts together definitely affects writing. Your son is not dealing with the same level of disability that my son is, but some of the same difficulty with making connections may contribute to their struggles.
Has your son had problems with the motor aspects of writing? Slowness, illegibility, sloppiness, difficulty copying notes, inconsistent letter sizing or atypical use of capitalization, difficulty staying on lines or writing small enough to fit his answers in the space provided?
YES!!! He read at 3 and I don't know how he learned to do it. He just READ and read well. But, I was terrified he'd never learn to write. It was terribly difficult for him to grasp a pencil, hold onto it well, make his letters, etc. His letters were SO large and wobbly. He could only write a LITTLE bit at a time for a long time. I did worry about dysgraphia but after looking at samples of kids' writing who were diagnosed with dysgraphia I decided my guy must just be slow to develop in his fine motor skills. The physical act of writing was difficult for most of his schooling years and he has MAJOR insecurity with anything related to drawing or sketching. He had a scaling project in Geometry and was totally overwhelmed due to the hand drawing. Even using tools is difficult for him (i.e. ruler). His teacher was helpful and allowed DS to do the project with a computer program. I think this struggle contributes to frustration with a Biology Symposium presentation that has VERY significant guidelines on neatness, graphs, titles, etc. There are major motor skills involved He scored very low on something called Visual Motor (maybe Visual Motor Planning) on a test he did a couple of times, one at age 8 and one at age 11. I don't know if that is linked to writing. He has ALWAYS disliked his handwriting but it's legible and relatively neat for a teen boy. He can't draw and has nothing but insecurity and disdain in that area. He doesn't even want to try to gain skills. I honestly think he's come a long way. He greatly prefers to type though that isn't unusual. He also seems to be able to keep up with note taking in his classes.
Dysgraphia, or SLD written expression, can be either a motor issue or trouble getting thoughts onto paper. ​Well, the motor issues have been there but they are a lot better now with the writing. Getting thoughts on paper is a bigger deal. THAT is proving difficult. He also has gross motor struggles. He is slightly awkward and clumsy (slightly). He has an odd gait when he runs. He is better now than when he was in late elementary or middle school. Team sports don't work well for him though. He's not able to integrate well with a team in terms of athletic ability. He can shoot hoops but not play a vigorous pick up game of basketball. It's been awhile since I've observed him so it's possible he's improved in this area. Or both. DS13 has both aspects of dsygraphia. I'm wondering if your son has exhibited any of the motor struggles. Sometimes an early struggle with handwriting issues can be seen as just needing more practice, but later on, if additional writing problems crop up, one can understand that the early struggles were really a red flag.
Thanks again for sharing all of that and helping me think through pieces of the puzzle.
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The research paper requirements and so on you are describing sound unusually difficult for 9th grade English (or Biology). Some schools don't have major research papers until 11th or 12th and have had a couple of years to work on the individual skills involved with less stress.
THANK-YOU for saying this. I think that it is quite demanding and I told my husband the same thing you are sharing here. I think that this 9th grade Biology research project with symposium is better for 11th+. I also believe that the C.S. Lewis class is tough; so does the teacher actually. She says that the school requires it in 9th but the kids struggle with it. I always second guess myself because I'm a bit of a softie and I don't know what to expect in 9th grade. I admitted to my husband that I would have a melt down over the C.S. Lewis Essay Exam. I was secretly terrified to counsel my son through it although I tried.
Some of what you describe sounds like somewhat typical 15yo boy though as well.
​Agreed. Which is making things difficult ... picking the issues apart. He has NEVER refused to do his work though and he isn't rebellious and he isn't characterized by meltdowns. The writing is too difficult so he will probably need a different school or only a part time schedule at this one. I don't know if they can accommodate us part time but I'm going to beg.
It may be that his current school is too writing-across-the-curriculum oriented to be a good fit for him unless they will give significant accommodations. Maybe he'd do better with a school (or homeschool) where he can spend more time on science or computers or math and do less writing. He might also do better if he could have creative writing and journalism classes to fulfill some of his English credits.
You are very intuitive! I agree. Somehow I need to get him with people though. Having him in the home all day every day hasn't worked. Online courses are a big no for him (the computer is his distraction). I like him to be GONE, to have to show up on time, to have the routine, to relate to others, to have a teacher (he is motivated by others more than by me). Home is too loose and the younger siblings are HUGE distractions and temptations to be irritable. :( If he was my only child or only had ONE sibling I could handle it. I'm in over my head and don't feel I can adequately school all four of them with some of the challenges we are facing. I'm not sure what we'll do but we're working on it.
That said, I still think getting him a Drop (or significant accommodation so he does not have to do the things he currently cannot do) for English las quarter, accommodation for biology, getting him onto a medication that works for him, and getting through the current year makes sense. Then once you see where he is with the medication working figure out (with lots of input from him) what to do next year.
Or, if you pull him out to homeschool for the rest of the year, make sure that will not make him more depressed and worse rather than better. Also before deciding to do that check whether he would get to count homeschool credits if he were to go to the public school next year. It does not seem to me like it would be worth sacrificing his mostly A and B credits in these circumstances. He will be able to make up one semester or year of English if need be.
We have a couple of options that we're discussing with the school. He will be allowed to finish in some manner even if he only audits the last quarter of English. The battle will be over Biology and allowing him to be graded without the symposium taken into account. His grade in the CS Lewis class is plummeting also; he told me he was worried he would get a D after missing the essay exam. The class won't get easier; he has another quarter in it and the first quarter of it was miserable for him. I also don't know if they will be willing to give him a semester credit for English quarters 2 and 3 but I'm hopeful. It's an unusual situation. He fits the school well in many ways and this is making me very sad. He is socially sensitive and he handles this group well even though he hasn't clicked with any one person or small group. He also likes theater at this school and as it is a private school the theater group is smaller and less intimidating.
Please recommend Chemistry text and You Tube channel
in High School and Self-Education Board
Posted
The text DS and I are using is very streamlined and we need more depth. Will you recommend a chem text that has clear explanations for a novice chem student?
We are also looking for an awesome You Tube channel with chemistry videos to supplement our learning. Any recommendations? ?
Thanks.