Congratulations!!! Hugs Nan

Yeah!

I am so happy for you both!!!! Long journey up a tall mountain, hunh? Lots of hugs Nan

I'm feeding The woodstove this morning too, and listening to Christmas carols on Pandora, and wrapping all the books I bought for people for Christmas, all with a wicked headache and stiff neck. For comfort watches, we turn to Star Trek NG and Jeeves. Hang in there, Lizzie. Nan

They grow a lot between 16 and 18. : ) Nan

Honor Harrington (a suggestion of my nephew, since I was enjoying Hornblower), and for my youngest, I am reading the Ender's Game series. The source of the books is getting me through the grittier parts, especially with the Ender's Game series, which is beyond what I normally tolerate. Hmm... I have sometimes wondered about ticks when I hung the clothes out. We've never had a problem, though, so I am assuming we won't. Ironing is waaaaaay down on my priority list. I will iron dress clothes, if necessary, and damask table clothes for Christmas or Thanksgiving or Easter. Otherwise, we live wrinkly. Mostly, the stuff we have has been worn into softness and any wrinkles go away with the crinkliness from the drying rack or clothes line. I air our bed while we eat breakfast, too, usually. I have no idea if it makes any difference. I air the sleepingbags on the boat when I can do it without them blowing away or getting damper or saltier. That I do know makes a difference. Nan ETA - I am enjoying the Honor Harrington series.

Just remember that those adult rules apply to you, too. If you want your adult children to wear lifejackets, you have to, too. If you want them to tell you where they are at all times, you have to tell them where you are, too. We had to keep pointing out that we were doing it too because that wasn't obvious to them. Parents tend to be invisible and young adults are really having to scramble to adjust to their new world and don't have the energy to focus on much else except their half of the equation for awhile. They are going to mess up a lot in the process of figuring out how to be an adult. Some rules will still apply (like seatbelts) and some don't (like curfews). Some of them have to figure out which are which by trail and error, which is scary and annoying for the parents. And they have a lot they are trying to remember so that contributes to mistakes. You just have to assume they are trying their best and do lots of gentle reminding and silent forgiving and be respectful of them and include them as adults in the household discussions and decisions. Try to find adult things you like to do together to replace the childhood things. That way, you can continue to enjoy each other's company. Yup - dorms. Ug. All I have to do is hear the first few measures of a disco song and my anger boils up. Still, after all these years! : ) Good luck! Nan

I am mired in alibris lists and hoping everything arrives in time for Christmas. And I am reading the same series that I have been for a few weeks now. And annoyingly, my boston public librrary card has expired and I can't figure out how to renew it. I guess I'm going to have to telephone. Nan

It was a bright spot in a difficult Christmas. : ) Nan

Superballs. They have to be the best ever entertainment value for a quarter. : ) And they are particularly fun in cement corridors. Nan

Last year, because of life circumstances, we had a whole family of parents and adult children ordering Christmas presents using dad's account to get the free shipping. When the boxes started arriving, we realized we had a problem. We chose to put all the boxes under the tree unopenned and take turns openning them Christmas morning. A would open and hold up item. B would say that's mine and hand it to C. It was fun. Not that it solves your problem. : ) Nan

That sounds perfect!I was going to suggest some sort of tablet or jewelry. Nan

We learned the hard way to celebrate every graduation. You never know what life will bring. It was years of hard work and it resulted in a real college degree that you can put on your CV. I vote you mark the achievement. : ) Nan

Thank you, Mumto2 and Erin. I will check those out. Nan

Derek, if I were you, I would start thinking about which of your family rules you want to be household rules that apply to all adults and which are rules just for children. Then I would start making sure that the adults (you and your wife) start following those adult rules and start talking about how adults in your house have to follow those rules. I would try to make the rules all be about household safety and convenience and atmosphere rather than personal safety and convenience and atmosphere. If you ask my children, they would probably say we don't really have rules. It all boil down to not doing anything discourteous and not doing anything that endangers other people. For example, take bedtime. Although it would certainly be better for your son if he went to sleep early every night, that is a personal decision that you wouldn't make for another adult. If I were you, I wouldn't make a rule that every adult in the household had to go to sleep at 10pm. I would, however, have no hesitation in making a rule about having the house quiet after 10pm so that any younger children and other adults can go to sleep then if they want to. In our house, we leave the entryway light on if an adult is going to be out late and the late one turns it off when they come in. This prevents anyone who wake in the night from wondering if the late one is home safe. It is a courtesy. We all know that staying up late makes you cross and less effective the next day. There are no rules about staying up late, but even now, in my 50's, my mother will remind me of this if she finds me still up when it is late. She isn't telling me what to do. She is just nudging and reminding me. If I have work that I have to do, I ignore the advice. If I am just dillydallying, then that nudge is often just what I need to break me out of what I was doing and get myself off to bed. She doesn't nag or wait to see what I am going to do or expect me to obey her or anything annoying like that. It is just a quick reminder. One of the hardest things for my children to accept, the thing they fought the most between the ages of 15 and 22, was the knowledge that the decisions they made about themselves affected the whole family. If they chose to do something risky and died, everyone's lives were going to be ruined. If they chose to do something immoral, everyone was going to be heartbroken. Even small decisions affected everyone. They hated that. We sympathized, told them that we had felt the same way at their age, and told them that that was the disadvantage of having a close, loving family and there wasn't anything we could do about it. They also hated that everything they did was noticed and contributed to. This was good because it meant that all their plans worked because they got good advice and help. It was bad because there wasn't much privacy and when they failed, they failed in public. At least my family is very very tactful about failures. Nobody says I told you so. Everybody pretends they didn't happen. If I were you, I would teach basic risk management to all my children. If something is highly likely to fail and failure has dire consequences - don't do it. If something is highly risky and the results of failure aren't too bad - do it. If something is not likely to fail and failure has dire consequences - think again and only do it if the result of success is really really worth it or the chance of failure is really really low. If something is unlikely to fail and the results of failure aren't too bad - do it. Most disagreements happen about the third one. Nan

My husband and I lived with my parents for awhile as adults. My parents had lived with their parents as adults, too. And my children have lived with us as adults. We sort of have this down. I'm not saying it is easy or that we always do the right thing, but what we are supposed to be doing is pretty clear to us. It pretty much boils down to this: As soon as they are big enough physically, you have to persuade them to what you want rather than force them to do what you want. Although in theory this is happens at about 3 years old, when they are no longer big enough that you can pick them up if they don't want you to, in actuality, as long as you don't lose their trust and love, you can get away with telling them to do things a lot longer. So DON'T LOSE THEIR TRUST AND LOVE. That means not betraying them, respecting their body, respecting their property, respecting their emotions, respecting their decisions, and behaving as someone who is worthy of their respect. You have to start doing that as soon as they are born because although they will forgive you a lot when they are little (fortunately), the older they get, the more they see and remember and add things to their picture of the world. In my family, the 18th birthday is an event at which everyone acknowledged that you have switched from having to follow special rules for non-adults to having to follow the general house rules that applied to all the adults in that household. You still have to bring a life jacket with you if you got in a boat, not do anything illegal, not leave a car with an empty gas tank, let the cook know if you weren't going to be there for a meal, etc. If someone wants you to do the dishes, they phrase it as a polite request, the way they would if you were a friend. Instead of orders, people offer advice about decisions, lots and lots (slow bloomers here), some of it fairly strongly worded, and offer sympathy when you make bad decisions rather than criticism, the way they do when a friend makes a bad decision. This doesn't mean that a whole lot of parenting doesn't still happen. It does. It just is done differently. As parents, the trick is to make the transition slowly, before 18, so that by the time the 18th birthday comes along, the transition to adult rules has already happened. A super important part of this is figuring out what you want those adult rules to be and start following them yourself well before the first child's 18th birthday. Preferably about 18 years before. For example, are you going to be one of those families that always tells someone where they are going? Is the food usable by anyone at any time, or is there someone in charge of it who needs to be asked before it get used? Is swearing ok? What is the policy for alcohol? As your children get older, they will have rules that they want to add or abolish and that is good. They will think of things to make family life smoother that you haven't. Although adult household rules are negotiated within the family, in the end, the owner of the house has the final decision. In my experience, the households who have the most trouble are the ones who have different sets of rules for different adults in the household - older/younger, male/female, etc.. That doesn't mean that chores aren't split up, but the rules associated with responsibilities for ones chores apply to everyone. That doesn't mean that individuals don't own things like cars and have to have permission asked before use, but that general rules about borrowing something apply to everyone. For example, at my parents' house, one puts ones car keys in the bowl by the door when one comes in, so that nobody gets parked in when somebody is off in a boat. In my experience, the households with the most rules have the most trouble. In that case, there are bound to be rules that don't make sense to some of the adults in the household. Rules that don't make sense tend to be forgotten, which causes upset. As parents and home owners, you have to have clear in your head what consequences you are willing to apply to adults who aren't following your rules. Your options are limited because they have to be honest and you have to keep following the household rules. They pretty much boil down to the same things you could do to a friend who was a guest in your house. You can refuse to do nice things for the rule-breaker. You can remind them politely and forgive them and keep loving them anyway. You can talk about the rule and see if it is a good rule. You can kick them out of the house. You can ignore them. You can refuse to talk to them. You can make a scene and yell at them. You can refuse to lend your property (like your car). You can refuse to invite them to do something fun with you. The same options that would damage a friendship will also damage your relationship with your adult child. Nan

I need gift suggestions for a rather reclusive, rather reluctantly graduating from uni in May, aspiring fantasy writer nephew who has very few wants or needs. He is one of my sources of books to read because we are buddies and he has me pegged and because my youngest and I are the ones in the clan whose reading overlaps with his, although he reads about a half inch of thickness an hour. Any ideas? Nan

Yeah!

I wonder how many people living on the coast involved with boats believe FE? I suspect tbis is all a lot easier to believe if you live in tbe middle of the country and don't travel.

I have to say that the counseling where my children went to college did a really nice job. They weren't dealing with suicide or other serious issues, though. I have no idea whether they were any good serious situations. Small schools. And we got the ball rolling at orientation and I kept the counselor's phone number in our own phones so I could give it to our children if they called in any sort of crisis. I never had to. We either dealt with situations ourselves by hopping in the car or hanging out on the phone, or when we suggested counseling and offered the phone number, they were in good enough shape to say they'd look it up themselves. Nan

And then there are the schools where the students are required to carry knives and bringing one's hunting rifle to school is normal and if one wins the moose lottery one is excused from class...

We have high strung children (no surprise - two really high strung people are highly likely to produce high strung offspring), so this is something we have thought about a lot. I, personally, have some experience with this, as well. We did some things to try to make suicide less likely. We were pretty resigned to our children being depressed in college. We considered that fairly inevitable. Please keep those things in mind when you read my list of what we did to try to prevent suicide. We were realistic about our children's abilities. We told our children our "realistic" expectations for them. (We said things like, "Because of the way you are wired, you are probably going to have to spend twice the amount of time your friends spend on homework just to get C's. That is ok. Just do it and get through.") We told our children about our less-than-wonderful college experiences (as well as the wonderful ones) and said that college was a pretty awful time of life - that being grownup was way way better. We told our children that we expected them to work hard at school, but that there are may things in life more important than schoolwork so don't neglect the other opportunities. We told our children that they could live with us forever, that we thought they would eventually want to live someplace else, but we would be perfectly happy if they didn't. (They believed us because we lived with my parents after we were married for a bit.) We decoupled college graduation from leaving beloved home and family. If we hadn't, there is no way two of ours would have graduated. Our children aren't stupid. They knew that graduation is often when leaving home for good happens. We told our children it was ok to get help - help with the academics, help with managing other daily things like laundry, help with social situations. We told our children where to go for help, made sure they knew about whatever mental health services existed, and made sure the mental health services knew our children existed. We warned our children not to tell anyone in the medical profession that they thought about suicide or self-harm unless they were willing to be whisked off and hospitalized. We told them there might be a time when that was the appropriate response, but there were in-between states in which it would be appropriate to call us to come get them immediately and let us deal with things at home, where we could be sure no one would over-react. We told our children that we didn't have the money for colleges that required airplanes to get to. We told our children that if they were within easy driving distance, we could come take them out to dinner if they were feeling lonely or needed help. We made sure our children understood fight, flight, or freeze under pressure, and warned them that they were most likely to freeze under academic pressure. We made sure our children knew what freezing felt like (unable to sit down and do the work), and that it was ok to get someone else to help them to unfreeze (sit next to them until they were involved in the assignment enough that they weren't stressed and frozen anymore). "Can you just sit with me and help me get started on this assignment? I'm so stressed about it that I can't think." We made sure we discouraged our children from entering any program to which we thought they were unsuited. We talked about ways to escape (reading, drugs, alcohol, excersize, videogames, social media, ...) and how you have to recognize when you are escaping and make sure it isn't at a critical time, like finals. We made sure they understood how much work getting through finals week and a few other perfect storm weeks actually is, and how you probably can't do anything but eat, sleep a tiny bit, and focus on school work during those times. We made sure they understood the connection between their bodies and their minds, and told them to watch their nutrition, excersize, sunlight, social contact. We made sure they understood that making friends was important, and understood where to go to make friends, and made sure they didn't go to schools where they would have to work at the academics so hard that they would have no time to make friends. We told them to wash their hands often, take a multivitamin, and get a flu shot, because getting sick gets you behind in your schoolwork, which makes you unable to take the time to do the things that help battle depression, which leads to a downward spiral. All because of a cold. We got them a small meal plan, even when they were living off campus. We paid for off campus housing if they thought they would be better off out of the dorms. We paid for an off campus gym if they thought they would be better off excersizing off campus. We dropped everything to talk to them when they called, knowing it might be important but they might not be able to tell us it was. We tried to make sure they had something that was totally unrelated to school to look forward to (like a day of skiing), and we told them it would happen no matter what happened with school. We tried to make their vacations peaceful and fun. We told them their main job on vacation was to sleep and eat enough that they could survive another semester. We warned them that girlfriends (or boyfriends) could wreak havoc with their school work, but that it might be worth it. We were accepting of their friends. We tried not to be critical of their life choices. (And tried to remember that they weren't necessarily permanent, when we were less than thrilled about them.) We told them when we thought they were doing something dangerous, but didn't tell them not to do it. We talked about risks. We talked about how to assess a risk, and tried to discourage over-reacting to low level risks. We tried to help them be cheerful and optimistic about the future. We tried to discourage perfectionism and encourage a good-enough attitude. We tried to make being grown up look like it was better than being a teenager. We encouraged them to try new things and find new, adult hobbies. We encouraged them to learn things that made them happy (like playing the guitar). We told them it was ok if it took them more than 4 years to graduate. We told them we loved them no matter what, over and over, and we really meant it. We weren't successful all the time. We had children who were trying hard to be independent or we might have had to take a different approach. These things won't necessarily work for your family, but maybe something in all that will help someone. When I was a freshman in college, both my roommate's and my best friend's parents got divorced and their mothers had to move to a new home. They went home at Christmas to a new house and no Dad. Although it seemed like good timing to the parents - child is now 18 and out of the house - in some ways, it couldn't possibly have been worse. I think sometimes depression has nothing to do with the student and everything to do with other people. I have always said that the big challenge with teenagers was getting them to want to be a grownup. It can look pretty awful, especially if it involves leaving everything you love - home, family, pets, childhood friends. I think the wonder is that so many do survive, survive and thrive, even. Lots of hugs, Nan

Hmmm... I took the quiz and voted, but I think the quiz is a good example of how difficult it is to fit people into boxes, and as a result, how unhelpful, in most cases. Nan

Regentrude answered better than I could have. And Laura. It is hard. Hugs Nan

I think it depends on him. He might die in pain in a few days with nobody knowing and helping, which would be horrible for the nobodies but can you honestly say that would be worse for him than dieing slowly in pain over the course of months or years, which is what is likely to happen to him if you force him into a new living situation? Or he might have a near miss that scares him into being ready for a new warm, clean, living situation right now. Or a near miss might make him more angry and scared of change than ever (in which case you still can't do anything). Or if he almost but not quite dies and is so damaged he can't go home after they patch him up, then the poor guy's life is out of his hands and he will end his life in a nursing home, clean and cared for but probably miserable and angry as ever. Do you really think that if you force him into assisted living, he will give a sigh of relief and be happy? In my admittedly very limited experience, that doesn't happen. What love and trust the person had for their family and community and life is damaged unless the person was a very forgiving, loving, realistic person to begin with. Philosophy enters into this. Do you believe people should be able to choose how to live? And to choose their end? Death is not always clean and tidy. Maybe what happens at the end of our lives readies us for what comes next? Not that we shouldn't help people... just that helping isn't really helping unless the person accepts the help. I think, anyway. Rescuing people is such a tricky thing. Lots of hugs. Nan