We have used the Children's Book of Virtues http://www.amazon.com/Childrens-Book-Virtues-William-Bennett/dp/068481353X And have The Book of Virtues for Young People on our shelf to use in a couple of years http://www.amazon.com/The-Book-Virtues-Young-People/dp/0689816138/ref=pd_bxgy_14_img_z

We used both for a short while. You could probably use IEW and add in some Bravewriter elements such as poetry tea times etc?

Yes, sounds like the KWO's in IEW.

I have now heard back from IEW. If you are interested in hearing what they have to say you can view my query over at their forum in the Miscellany section. From what I understand, one of the instructors is recommending the use of the dress-ups as being an important part of the program, the other is giving ideas on how to use the dress-ups without being too forceful with them. I think I will use the dress-ups as suggestions when brainstorming ideas at the draft stage to improve DS's writing, both when writing from outlines and narrations, but I wont enforce them. And we definitely won't refer to them as 'dress-ups'! As for the checklist, I will use that as a guide/reminder but not require DS to use it, as this causes stress, especially if he realises he left something out. I want to remove a lot of the 'formula' from this program and use it more as an aid to help ME to understand how to teach writing so I can pass that on to DS.

Really? Great - I am pleased to hear this! I've asked over at IEW too and am awaiting their response. I thought I would be told that there is no point in using the program if I am going to remove the stylistic elements.

I have searched threads here regarding the above, but could only find one dating back to 2009. I posted recently about not wanting to continue with W&R for DS10 (he has only used Fable) and reverting back to using IEW (which DS quite passionately dislikes). He has used SWI-A (in grade 3) and ATFF (in grade 4) with a good 10-12 month break in between both, but completed neither (he is currently grade 5). He got about a third through each and we had to let it go both times because the dress-ups really frustrated him. The reason I want to go back to IEW is because I think it did teach him to write better than any other writing program we have used (and we have tried several). He writes decently already without having to feel the need for forced dress-ups. The forced dress ups often made his writing sound grammatically incorrect and were just unnecessary for him. I have been wondering if I could use the TWSS (loosely) and pull writing assignments from his history/science/geography readings, and not enforce the dressups and checklists (these 2 requirements caused his intense dislike of the program). Instead I would make suggestions along the lines of the dressups after he has completed his first draft. If his first draft does not need dressups and just needs some polishing, then I don't want to force them. I also don't want to insist on 'banned words' because sometimes there is a need to use some of those simple words. Rather, if he uses the simple adjectives too often, we could talk (at the first draft stage) about using stronger adjectives to make his writing sound more descriptive. By using IEW this way, would you say I am completely missing the whole point/benefit of the program? And I'm also curious to know if anyone else uses IEW in a way which is very different to how it is prescribed, and if you have been successful with it? I'm a little nervous using IEW this way, because I feel like I need quite a bit of hand holding when it comes to teaching writing, but am hoping the TWSS will give me that. Any thoughts?

Thanks for the responses. I have looked through Narrative 1 and it seems much of the same as Fable. And yes, we did start with Fable based on the recommendations here to start from the beginning. I'm starting to think these books are better used as a supplement, but then I have only seen the first 2 books. No wonder my son prefers Fable, its super easy. Has anyone used TWSS on its own successfully... or maybe that's a new thread.

We have just finished W&R Fable and I am undecided if we should continue to narrative or move onto something else. DS10 enjoys this program (having used IEW, ATFF previously, which he detested). The thing is, after completing Fable I don't see any improvement in his writing. None of what he learnt using fable crosses over into his other subjects. I don't see any change in his writing ability (which I would rate as average). I know it is early days and this is just the first book. With IEW, we both detested it, DS probably a little more than I, however, I did see an improvement in his writing skills and I liked that he could use what he learnt in IEW for history and science. With W&R, it just seems like he is completing writing exercises about fables. I'm sure eventually this program will help him be a better writer, but what about now? I want to see the fruits of his labour, not wait around for it to somehow click further down the track after having completed the copious writing exercises in W&R. I would like to see whatever writing program he is using, improve his writing in other subjects as he progresses through the program. With Fable, I feel like we have wasted a few months. I wish I could see the benefit of it? I have to say DS loved WWE in the earlier years, he tends to like the classical writing programs (I think the reason for this is that he views them as easy, and he loves the literature aspect), but he never really gains anything from the programs. I think if we go back to IEW, there will be a revolt, so that might be a no go unless I use the TWSS and not let on to DS we are 'using IEW'. I have EIW 5 and 6 sitting on my shelf, but after having watched one of the DVD's I don't think the author's style is going to appeal. What I am curious to know is, whether anyone uses IEW TWSS only, with history and science for writing, rather than the other IEW products? And is it easy enough to pull appropriate paragraphs from history/science? Essentially, I would like the subject of 'writing' to mesh with other subjects, and not be what feels like a pointless stand alone subject of simply 'practicing' writing (does that make sense?). I'm interested in hearing any opinions/thoughts.

Thanks Farrar - I'll check that one out too!

Thanks very much for the suggestions! The Boys Body Book and The Body Book for Boys look perfect for DS's current age, and I'll get It's Perfectly Normal for reading in a couple of years. I want to avoid the s*xual relationship stuff until a little later. We used the Robie. H. Harris books (Its Perfectly Normal author) for reproduction/babies a couple of years ago and they were great (very age appropriate).

Thank you - yes this looks perfect.

I'm looking for book recommendations for DS10 (11 in 4 months) on the above. I am finding many great books geared toward parents about raising teenage boys, however I am looking for something fairly light as an introduction, which is perhaps written directly to the child (maybe with a little humour?). He is a 'young' 10 so I would prefer the books be directed at this younger age. I have seen some for the 13+ age group but I think there is a little too much explicit information in them for my DS, who is not ready for some of the topics. I'd like something that may prepare him for the changes his body will go through, what to expect with emotions/hormones etc. If you can think of books you have found particularly helpful (that you would consider on the lighter side), I'd love to hear. TIA

I agree. I don't like to insist that DS learn an instrument, but sometimes kids this age don't really know what they want or what's good for them, so I like to encourage, but no I don't and wont insist/force.

yes definitely and I'm going to try morning practice. we'll follow many of the suggestions here for the next 9 weeks and give it the best go we can before quitting.

Thanks everyone for the many different view points - I appreciate them all and have got some things to mull over now - the first being to speak to DS' music teacher today. Sorry I cant work out how to use this multi-quote thing! 73dn and klmama - comments similar to yours have resonated with me and I'm thinking this may be the way forward. I'm thinking of letting him finish the 9 lessons he has left (and during that time let him decide if he seriously wants to continue or not). The daily stress he is putting both of us under doesn't seem worth the effort (unless of course he changes his attitude within the next 9 weeks). We are not overly musical as a family, but I have long felt that music should be a part of DS's 'liberal' education. However, I don't believe in forcing a child to participate in an extra curricula activity that they hate. School subjects yes, extra curricula no.

Yes - he has tried piano and vocals but not great interest.

Well he first started with a nylon string, and just this year his teacher suggested we get a better guitar with the steel(?) strings because the sound is better. I don't really believe the sore fingers is the real issue though, its just another excuse mainly.

This is very much our situation too. DS wont even look at his guitar nowadays unless it is for his music lesson or his forced practice. But when asked if he wants to continue with lessons he says yes. This is what I don't understand and which has got me wondering if he does the lessons to get a chunk of time off school (we have to travel about an hour to/from lessons once a week). Thanks for your response. Glad to hear we are not alone!

I'm starting to wonder about this. I think you might be right here. During breaks when there are no lessons or practice required, he will pick up his guitar and play with it, but when he feels forced to practice, he wont look twice at his guitar during private time.

Is this for me? Its guitar DS does, but yes from what many have suggested, I may try adding it as a school subject and during the morning. Currently his practice is at 4.30pm which may be when he is feeling tired at the end of the day and may explain his meltdowns about it.

No this is not really DS. A couple of years ago I asked him if he would like to learn an instrument as the music teacher at our co-op was offering private lessons. DS didn't really have a passion for any particular instrument but chose guitar. I agree, if it were a matter of just getting through a tough patch, I would encourage him to keep going, but saying he 'hates it' really has me wondering about pulling him out, especially if he passionately hates it rather than passionately loves it! lol

This is DS too. I think he would be happy I encouraged him to continue. Yes the instructor gives easy things to play and she is a lovely teacher. She does have recitals but DS has said he is not interested in doing those.

Yep, I'm starting to think this too. If he develops an interest at say 12, its probably not too late.

Yes. This is how I am currently thinking. But I have to say, he doesn't love math and writing, but he gives me a lot less grief over the 2 subjects than his guitar practice. But also, I guess if his math program were causing tears and upset I would probably change it. There is a guitar/music club but it is a good hour away and we already drive long distances twice per week. I don't think I want to commit to a further day away from home/school for something he isn't truly passionate about.

I think he would be okay with quitting guitar lessons, but you see, his lessons get him out of a day of school, as, like you, we have to travel far to lessons. I don't think his fingers really hurt that much, I think its just another issue to add to his list of complaints to justify not having to practice. I think he could teach himself (as we also have DVD instructions at home) but he isn't motivated to use them. You've said something interesting, I wonder if I just gave him his guitar and said 'have fun with it' whether he would, and not feel the obligation of expected practice. Knowing him, he would never play it. Thanks for your suggestions/thoughts.