Hakg
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Posts posted by Hakg
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oh okay. We are only in WWS1 and I read somewhere here that it does not teach essay writing. If it does - great!
Can anyone confirm?
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For a 13yo kid (boy) who is loving WWS 1, what would recommendations be for teaching essay writing. I was going to look at LTOW but understand it is very similar to IEW (which he abhorred).
Would love to hear your suggestions for something that would gel with a program like WWS.
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I haven’t read whole thread but I have the previous edition of TWSS if you are interested Melissa. I’m not at home right now to check but I think I have the discs and binder. I’m in Perth by the way so postage would be a lot cheaper. If you are interested feel free to pm me
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When we were first starting out, Charlotte Mason Companion by Karen Andreola and WTM
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DS12 got bored with MM too, after using it for about 4 years. Prior we had used Singapore Primary Math and dabbled in MUS (between K-2). DS now uses TT and loves it. We didn't want to break from MM and go back to it, it was tear inducing for DS and he began to dread math each day, we wanted to leave MM altogether. It wasn't that he couldn't do it, he is quite proficient with math, its that he loathed MM eventually. So we switched.
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I don;t plan on doing one at all. I have always thought it odd to require it anyway but not to require higher maths. Texas recently dropped the requirement for Alg 2 from high school graduation requirements but kept the foriegn language one. This makes ZERO sense to me. But I digress- 2 of mine have asked to learn French. I do not think it worth the time because, truthfully, unless you speak a language often, you are not going to retain it. (Says the Mom who at one time could speak/understand 4 languages.)
I agree. We started out with Latin which we used for a couple of years, then I thought why? I'd rather focus on ENGLISH language. Plus it was too hard to squeeze in time-wise and I only have the one.
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DS12 uses it after ceasing MM. He uses it on grade level. He loves it compared to MM which ended up driving him a bit crazy after using it for 4 years. I never understand the negative reviews about the program - it seems good enough to me.
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WWS, which we used, seems to be aimed towards a different end point than W&R. My DD didn't like the "stifling" approach (honestly, I think its just a learning style difference) and it made the program less useful for her but even if it had been more compatible I love the aims of W&R so much I would prefer it.
Its funny, I originally came here with concerns about W&R's lack of instruction for outlining, however after looking through a couple of other writing programs that give too much instruction, and break the process down way too much, for this child W&R is continuing to look like the most suitable writing instruction. I also have a better understanding of the premise behind the program thanks to the podcast recommended above, and I like what I have seen/heard.
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I am not sure what the negative reviews for Chreia say, but I can tell you why I liked it and why I recommend trying it.
- It is definitely the first book in the series that is intended for a logic-stage student. The student learns the difference between literal and figurative language, and they are expected to be able to say in their own words what the figurative language or saying actually means.
- It has the student writing a variety of types of paragraphs every week...compare, contrast, praise, definition, persuasive, and closing. It might seem to get repetetive after a while since each lesson requires those same paragraph types, but by the end of the book the student will be able to write a paragraph of each of these types really, really well.
- It really makes the student think. The Talk About It section each week is full of "why" questions, so the student gets lots of practice formulating an opinion and supporting it. The compare and contrast paragraphs require the student to think of an example from literature or history as a comparison or contrast to the individual the chreia is about, so they begin to make connections between people and critically compare their actions and the results.
The book says it is for 4th-5th grades, but I would imagine most 4th graders and some 5th graders would struggle with these skills. I used it with my middle child at the beginning of 6th grade, and it was the perfect timing for her. I am on track with my youngest to use it at that same point.
Thanks for your advice throughout this thread Clear Creek. It has been immensely helpful in deciding whether we keep going with W&R or ditch it. For now, I think we will keep going. I look forward to receiving Chreia so I can have a look through it myself.
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I also don't see the point of outlining fiction. We are going to try Chreia too and if that bombs then we may go to WWS. I say may loosely though because I don't want to be turned off W&R because of Chreia (the negative reviews are all I have to go on right now), so I will need to be mindful of that.
DS did start WWS a year or so ago and found it too stifling (again with breaking things down too much like IEW), whereas with W&R he actually enjoys the exercises.
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I taught Narrative II and Chreia at a co-op this last year, so I'll share my thoughts.
1) You absolutley need to be using these books on the higher end of the grade level that it's suggested for. I believe you could even use it past that grade level. For example, my oldest, who was in 7th grade last year, was in my Narrative II/Chreia class at co-op. While she could have done Narrative II earlier, I felt that Chreia was perfect for her age. I can't imagine handing Chreia over to my 4th grader and expecting her to write a 6 paragraph essay. Not to mention that Chreia expects kids to have some base knowledge of figures from literature and history to do the compare/contrast part of the essay that younger kids might not have.
2) As for outlining in Narrative II, I never required them to fill in the outline on their own. We always did that part in class and talked about it. What I did as the teacher was really hammer home what an outline is for when it comes to writing. You need to have an idea of where your story/narrative is heading BEFORE you sit down to write, so even if you don't do a super detailed outline like the ones in the Narrative II examples, you do need to outline your story in some fashion. The final assignment in the Narrative II book is to write your own story. I had all of the kids turn in an outline of what was going to happen in their story and we talked a lot about the parts of a fictional story using the book, The Most Wonderful Writing Lessons Ever (It's for 2-4 grade, but the information is really good and easily adaptable) So, yes, I brought in extra teaching, because I tend to do that for pretty much any curriculum I'm using. To me the ability to outline the stories in the book was not the important part. It was the ability to outline your story before you start writing so you know where you are going and what actions/events are going to get you there. Not that those things are set in stone, but at least you have an idea instead of just sitting down to write with no forethought whatsoever.
3) My thoughts on Chreia are that it's too much of one thing. That being said, I feel that Chreia is what helped my students the most on actually learning to write non-fiction. I hammered paragraph construction (topic sentence with supporting points) and smooth transitions between paragraphs. By the end of that book, their writing had improved 100% compared to the first Chreia they wrote. I think we were all burned out on writing 6 paragraph essays following a set format though. My suggestion would be to purchase Chreia with the intention that once your child has solid paragraph construction down and the ability to find and use supporting points from a source to expand on their topic sentence, then feel free to stop and move on to the next book because there is nothing new taught or assigned in Chreia except writing chreias.
All of the above being said, I fully plan to continue on with Writing and Rhetoric in the future.
Hope these thoughts help.
Thanks so much for this advice Chelli. It helps me to better understand what I need to focus on before moving on in W&R. It sounds like it might be a good idea to pause and focus on outlining and understand that well enough before moving on. I have just purchased Chreia after reading your comments, because I am starting to feel it would be a bad idea to skip any of the books.
Do you use the Most Wonderful Writing Lessons to supplement other parts of W&R also, or only the outlining section?
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I use Rod & Staff English through elementary school with my kids, so I don't have enough experience with another program to recommend one. W&R book 5 is where students are first taught to revise their writing, so I would say that a student would need to have studied (or be studying) the equivalent to R&S English 5 by that point. If they have not learned things like appositives and passive voice before they encounter them in this book, the lessons will be that much harder...doable, but harder. A thorough explanation of each term is given, along with exercises to practice using it, but the student is expected to have grasped the concept after that point.
Thank you! Good to know.
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WWS has some good instruction on outlining, and they have a very generous sample on their website. Maybe check out how they are teaching outlining to see if that would be a good fit as a supplemental lesson on just this. We haven't reached the outlining part yet, but we are overall pleased with the series. We use MCT too, which has some writing instruction, but I love CAP too much to let it go. I definitely agree with the deep reflection on good, true and beautiful, which in my opinion, is the higher goal of writing that homeschooling and classical education allow.
Thanks thats a good idea - I have WWS1-2 here so I will have a better look at how they approach outlining.
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We have done through Narrative 2 midway. We took last year off and did IEW in a co-op. I too was frustrated by the lack of instruction for the outlining. We ended up doing some sample outlining on our own with me doing direct instruction. It helped. I kinda felt kinda shaky after that about W&R because the instruction up to that point was good and the lack of explicit outlining teaching kinda came out of no where. I think if I had prepared better I would have looked ahead and realized I needed to be ready to teach outlining.
Now that I think about it, ClearCreek is right. It does expect that you are going through a thorough grammar program, many of which teach outlining. We were using MCT at the time, which did not teach outlining among other things.
Our year in IEW was a hit and a miss in many ways. One of the hits is their explicit teaching and repetition of keyword outlines. It makes a 3 level outline much easier to learn. My older son is begging to do W&R again. We will skip Chreia and do book 5&6 for 7th. My younger son will start Fable this year as a 5th grader. Looking at what book 5&6 teach, and remembering books 1-3, I agree with a previous poster that this series is best at the higher grade that CAP rcommends. I would wait until at least 4th grade, unless your child is really advanced not just in writing, but also in their reasoning. I think my 5th grader is going to get a lot more out of books 1&2 than his brother did in 3rd grade.
ETA: my advice is to stick with W&R and add in some explicit outline instruction. Skip Chreia if it doesn't resonate with you. You could even use something else to approach writing from a different angle for a semester and then come back to W&R.
Yes thats how I feel about the lack of instruction re: outlining. Which is why I was concerned about instruction in the future books. My son did key word outlining in IEW for a while too, which he hated. He didn't like the instruction broken down so much. I am thinking of sticking with W&R solely because DS enjoys it and using the Remedia book mentioned above.
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This has been true for my DS - my plan for 7th is to be through book 6. It is the perfect place for him. He does advanced grammar, he is an excellent speller, he reads challenging books, he writes beautiful creative pieces, but academic writing is where we need to focus. This program keeps his interest, keeps him thinking, doesn't pander, and has enough variety so as to neither overwhelm or become boring. There is also a different underlying focus, you can tell, than simply reaching rhetorical milestones. It cultivates beauty, virtue, wisdom, and truth along the way.
This is good to hear. After listening to the podcast I felt that I had a better understanding of where W&R was going.
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My daughter had learned outlining in Rod & Staff before the outlining showed up in Writing & Rhetoric, so the short lesson on outlining and the expectation that the student was ready for 3-level outlining was not a problem for her.
The series expects that the student is getting a thorough study of grammar elsewhere, so there is an expectation that the student is familiar with the concepts and can work with them in the context of their own writing. The student is expected to be able to proofread their own writing in the later books for spelling, grammar, and punctuation errors; and the rules for all of those things are not covered in the books, just the proofreading marks. The series really does expect that there is a parent (or teacher) actively involved in the lessons each week, and that the parent/teacher will adjust the lesson according to the student that they are teaching. It is not meant to be a self-teaching curriculum.
I have said it before, and I will say it again....this curriculum is best used at the upper level of the given age range. The expectations of the student are raised rather highly from book to book, and it will overwhelm younger students pretty quickly if they are put in to one of the higher-level books before they are ready. One good gauge is whether they can fully participate in the discussion at the beginning of the lesson, because their writing each week is based on being able to critically think about the piece of writing and make comparisons to other ideas/people/events on their own. They also jump right in to writing a 6-paragraph essay pretty early in the series, which can burn out a young child who isn't ready for that amount.
Thanks Clear Creek. Good to know about using the books at the upper end of the age range. Though I'm a little concerned about your grammar comment. We are using Fix It by IEW and I'm not sure I would call it 'thorough'. DS likes it because he HATES grammar and Fix It makes it bearable and likeable for him.
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Yes that's the thing: my son quite likes the program too, and that is very important, but running into the outlining instruction issue has me concerned about the level of instruction in future books. I need decent instruction because I'm not confident with teaching writing.
However, if the lack of instruction is only with the outlining lessons, then I would be happy to continue on with the program. Can I ask what extra outlining unit you used for a few weeks?
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She absolutely hates the iew style that breaks down the writing into tiny itty bitty pieces and beats it to death.
No recommendation, but DS hated IEW for the very same reason. He panics if I so much as bring the IEW materials out to look at!
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Here is the podcast if anyone is interested. The first part tends to discuss the progym. He (Paul Kortepeter) discusses whether is it advisable to miss books, or skip around with them, at around 33 mins. He makes the point that the books are sequential, but said (somewhat reluctantly) that they can be used out of sequence if the teacher is 'acquainted enough with what is going on'. My understanding (from what he says) is that it's probably best not to skip books unless necessary.
http://theclassicalhomeschool.com/14-interview-with-paul-kortepeter/
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I am, too! And I just downloaded the podcast mentioned above (a search turned up the Classical Homeschool Podcast #14) and am hoping listening to this will also give me more insight into the upper levels of the program.
Thanks will go have a search for that podcast. Though it would be good to hear from others who have used the program all the way through (or at least to the upper levels that are available). I'd be keen to also hear if people stick with the program or veer off and use something else.
Anyone keen to give their opinions?
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We just finished Narrative II. While the outlining was a bit of a jump, my son had already done some basic outlining in CLE Language Arts so we muddled through. I was recently at a conference and looked through the next levels of W&R and decided to skip Chreia. I also listened to a podcast featuring Paul Kortpeter. Someone asked what levels are most important if someone is coming in late to the series. He suggested books 5, 7, 9 and 10. At the conference, I looked at those books and really liked the look of them. My son is going into 7th grade and may go to high school for 9th, so my plan is to do those books with him for 7th and 8th grade.
I've wondered if it would be okay to skip Chreia altogether and whether it would create a gap with the program, because the lessons seem to build on one another.
I'd be curious to hear from those who have used further levels.
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Thanks sbgrace. I have WWS here so I might have a good look at that. I looked at the Chreia samples online and wasn't impressed.
Do you mind me asking what you moved to? We have tried IEW and DS absolutely abhors that program even though I wish he would give it another try.
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DS12 is using narrative 2 and has just arrived at outlining. I was surprised to find W&R jump right into 3 level outlining. I don't think DS needs a ton of instruction in outlining, but I would have preferred to see outlining start with one level and then move forward progressively. He is able to do the 3 level outline, but with some frustration. There is just not enough instruction, but I don't want to stop and pick up a separate outlining instruction book as I don't think its necessary. I'd rather find a curriculum that teaches outlining better.
I have not read good reviews about the next level (chreia) and am wondering if we should leave W&R and try something else like WWS? or should we hang in there and muddle through narrative 2, then Chreia. I don't actually own Chreia.
DS has not had any trouble using W&R (in fact finds the books easy) which makes sense as he started using them at a later age. Also, DS is average in writing, doesn't love it, doesn't hate it.
I'm just wondering if the instruction in the rest of the W&R books is lacking like we have found with outlining in narrative 2?
WWS & Essay Writing
in K-8 Curriculum Board
Posted
Thanks very much! Off to check out the link and also Thinking in Threes (had not heard of this). I know what you mean about the 'trees'.. this is my concern at present - its hard to trust in the process at times when you cannot see some immediate progress.