Mama Anna
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Posts posted by Mama Anna
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On 5/24/2018 at 2:58 PM, PeterPan said:
I'm surprised you think her ADHD isn't severe. It sounds pretty significant the way you're describing it. I'm surprised she doesn't want help. Has someone said something to her that makes her scared of the meds? She would only have the information she has been fed or the experiences she's had with kids around her. Meds could be very good in her situation as they would address the specific problems you're having. Is she having anxiety? Some people with ADHD find their anxiety improves with the meds because the meds improve competency. If you're having trouble functioning, then your stress (and hence anxiety) goes down as your function improves.
Again, I think my judgments are based on comparison. Dd 11 is much more capable of completing her work, etc., than dd8 (who has been diagnosed as gifted with HFA and ADHD). This difference is why dd8 was evaluated first and why I categorize dd11's difficulties as "not as severe." As for meds, as a family we try to avoid them when possible.
You can also have anxiety as a genetic component, sure. There's a gene, TPH2, that when it is defective decreases the production of 5HTP (which helps anxiety) from tryptophan. So if that gene is defective, yes she's going to be flat prone to anxiety. You can have the ADHD *and* the anxiety too. But just as a statement of what would happen to her anxiety if you put her on the ADHD meds, it might actually improve. What remains then would be the chemically caused anxiety, which is of course treatable by addressing the 5HTP deficiency.
I've read mention of 5HTP here before. It interests me since we have several people in our family who deal with various levels of anxiety. However, dd11 is the one of us who deals with the least anxiety, unless she's always been able to mask it since toddlerhood. I think she would have developed more if she'd been in a more restrictive environment for education.
QuoteIs she having trouble understanding in background noise? Like if she's in a noisy restaurant or store, does she seem to go deaf? That would be your huge huge red flag for APD issues. Some people describe APD as ADHD of the auditory system. I'm taking my dd out to CO next month for better testing for APD to settle the question once and for all. This does not have to be one or the other. You can have some of this, some of that, a bunch of things.
Once I get her attention, she can usually follow me about as well in a noisy environment as in a quiet one. I'll ask, though. Thanks!
It sounds like her art is an area of strength for her. :)
I wasn't able to post this reply before when I tried, but I'm going to try again.
Thanks again for your advice. I found the appointment to be much like y'all thought: talking through difficulties, working on EF coping strategies, etc. I think any assessments will need to wait until we can get the evaluation scheduled. Happily, Dd11 seemed to relate well to the counselor. She mentioned wanting to work on some specific skills when we were discussing the appointment while on the way home. Yay!!
Very relieved,
Mama Anna
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On 5/23/2018 at 11:43 AM, PeterPan said:
Proprioception is going to fall under SPD. If she has ADHD and SPD, sure you could be putting ASD on the table. I wouldn't assume it will look like another dc, even in your own family, just saying. It could look very, very different. What's with the not hearing? You want her screened for APD?
I've assumed that the not hearing is due to hyperfocus or distraction. She can fade so quickly - just half a second ago she's interacting with me on subject, we're moving along, then <poof> she's absent and I've got to pull her focus back in, hand-over-hand, so to speak. Of course, she is now able to do her work on her own on good days. (Which is good because her younger sister can't.) But on bad days, she can't focus on anything unless I'm working parallel with her and even then it's really tough. I'll ask about APD - it might be contributing. Autism, though . . . it just doesn't fit. She's the most laid-back, socially aware, empathetic person in the family - including myself and dh in the analysis. When she gets overwhelmed, it's a fairly typical "go cry on my bed for a while" type of overwhelmed, and it only happens a few times a year, even in puberty. (It didn't used to happen at all, really.)
The easiest thing to do, honestly, is put the dc on meds and see what falls away. Whatever is left is what you treat next. The meds can help with mild APD issues, will bump processing speed, and will help her be more functional. Then if there are social thinking deficits, issues with transitions, difficulties with breaking down tasks into parts, etc., then that's stuff you can work on. There's not really a benefit to waiting on meds at this age, frankly, and only harm. The tasks are becoming more difficult, and she's getting maxed out. If the dc were 5 or 8, you'd just work around it because it would be merely attention. But as the tasks become more complex, it's going to become harder for her to cope. So you're really setting it up as how much will we let you drown and fail before we give you the tools that let you succeed. She probably won't be able to get there with cognitive strategies alone.
Thanks. I don't want to hear this, but I know I need to. Her issues aren't as severe as some people's are (I think - I don't know how much her persistence and brightness mask), so I keep telling myself that she just needs a little more support . . . I know she doesn't want to go on meds, but she's still at an age where I can talk her into it if I need to. I think.
We finally started meds in high school with my dd. I'm just telling you, having btdt, there's not really a benefit to waiting at this point. You've already done all the modifications. You can do the meds AND the counseling, and together you can get to a really good place.
I've read the suggestion on this board that it's good to start counseling and then add meds, which is one reason that we haven't started meds yet.
For the retained reflexes, Pyramid of Potential sells a dvd. Or look on youtube. Yes, it could be huge.
Thanks - I'll do that.
You're worried about her proprioception, but how is her sensory? Does she have issues with sensory defensiveness or finding things uncomfortable or overwhelming? Is she sensory-seeking? Usually kids with proprioception issues are having sensory issues, because the body is trying to get input to figure out where it is.
She's a sensory-seeker, big-time. Rarely are things too much; she loves tight clothing, tight socks, tight shoes, fuzzy anything . . . having every member of the family sit on top of her on the couch (talking about a combined 400-450 lbs, or so), etc. Noise can sometimes be a problem for her, but given the fact that the rest of us are pretty sensitive, she doesn't usually end up in noisy situations.
Has she had her eyes checked by a developmental optometrist? She could have developmental vision issues, which would explain the drawing and writing issues. Kids with retained reflexes, etc. often have vision issues because the visual development depends on the reflexes.
No, she's only seen a typical optometrist. Her drawings are beautiful - so is her handwriting when she wants it to be (and "draws" it). She doesn't even take terribly long at drawing in art and she loves doing it. I think the handwriting difficulty is due to a processing speed difficulty - having to think, spell, form letters, etc. all at once. (She's never had trouble dictating narrations, it's just since she's been on her own for them that this is more of a problem.) I can ask the counselor about it though - thanks for the idea.
Bless you, Peter Pan, for the time you take to render such detailed answers on this board!!
Mama Anna
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Thanks to all of you who have replied!
Peter Pan, I'm not concerned about ASD (Dd8 is on the spectrum and also diagnosed with ADHD, so I have a bit of an idea of what that looks like) because there are no difficulties relating to others emotionally or being flexible with routine, possessions, etc. It's just that . . . between her continual search for sensory feedback, her marvelous creativity, and her continual ability to forget/not hear/not do stuff/get distracted - is it really possible that ALL this is just ADHD with a smattering of Proprioceptive Disorder? Is Proprioceptive Disorder typically comorbid with ADHD, or is it in another can of worms that we need to open up and explore?
Retained reflexes: What is it all about? I've heard about them and tried reading up on them, but the site I found didn't explain much except that they were incredibly important and dealing with them could change your child's whole life, etc., etc.. Could you suggest a better one? One that details the research behind them and how they work?
Lecka; She's not stellar at ballet, but she works hard and enjoys pushing herself at it. She's practiced bouncing a superball off the floor and catching it in her hand until she's pretty good at it (It took her several months of practice), but she's not good at catching a volleyball if you toss it to her. At all. On the other hand, she loves handstitching and developed good fine motor skills earlier than our other girls. Of course, she's always had a tendency to accidentally break things - it's always been hard for her to tell "how hard is too hard." Her handwriting isn't great, but it's legible. She hates the act of writing, though, and I started her on learning to type this last year. Basically, fine motor skills are excellent on anything in arts or crafts, but hard for her in schoolwork - unless I incorporate drawing diagrams/pictures/doing projects, etc. (Which I do. Often.) She takes piano from me and struggles with it, but I can see some progress in her ability to play with hands together/opposite.
Basically, I've got a kid who has struggles but who is bright, persistent, and stubborn enough to cope with some of her struggles, leaving me uncertain as to exactly where they are and what's wrong. We've been tweaking things, making allowances, trying to think outside the box, etc., for years, but our home-grown stuff isn't sufficient now that puberty is effecting everything.
Thanks for your thoughts on Brain Balance, etc. I'd love to get some more OT for her (she had a few sessions after her PD diagnosis), but I'm unsure how to do that in our present environment. Thanks also for giving an idea of what the appointment will be like. You guys are great!!
Mama Anna
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Background: I've posted a couple times about my two youngest daughters and their special needs. After going through the process of getting the 8yo dd evaluated and diagnosed, I decided to take the 11 yo dd in for diagnosis, too, as her ADHD symptoms have gotten worse with puberty.
The ped looked at 1 1/2 pages of assessment forms from me and dd's ballet teacher and said, "Yes, it looks like she has ADHD Inattentive-type. I suggest we begin with a 5-mg dose/day of meds."
I back-pedaled a bit, mentioning that I was hoping for a referral for a full evaluation and was told, "Well, that will take quite a while because the system is backed up. If you'd like counseling, I can give you a list of counselors in the area." I stuck with my request for a full evaluation because dd has previously been diagnosed with a proprioceptive disorder and it seems to me that there might be more than ADHD going on. The ped gave me a referral and we had a good discussion of how getting a prescription would work in case we change our minds about the meds, then parting on excellent terms.
Three weeks later, I got the intake call from the nearby Children's Hospital Neuro-psychology department and they repeated the ped's warning about an evaluation taking a long time to get. However, they offered me counseling for dd11 while we're waiting for the full evaluation. Dd11 has increasing EF difficulties (which are making life difficult for her), so I accepted. Her intake appointment is next Tuesday.
Questions:
1. What should I expect out of this counseling? I've told dd11 that it's likely to be someone saying, "What's the problem? Hmm . . . Well, have you tried this strategy? Try it out for a few days, then let me know how it works." Is that accurate?
2. When dd8 was diagnosed with ADHD, the evaluator told me that a positive diagnosis of ADHD can be made when the Working Memory and Processing Speed scores are significantly below the total IQ score. I've come across programs that promise to help those areas (Notably, Brain Balance Centers and Little Giant Steps). These programs are high-investment/cost and I don't know how useful they really are in the long run, which means that dh is reluctant to commit. Will we be likely to run into similar therapy options with a counselor in a pediatric neuro-psychology department? (In other words, try something out, see what works and what doesn't, and then invest in a program with more confidence?)
3. Can anyone give me specific ideas of questions to ask, subjects to address, etc. in the intake appointment?
I guess I'm just wishing for some IRL friends to tell me they have my back and are with me . . . it's been slow getting to know the HS community since we moved here 2 years ago. :)
TIA!!
Mama Anna
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We were finally able to get through the evaluation process and get diagnoses! (So happy!)
Dd8 is 2e: Gifted, with HFA and ADHD (Combined Type).
These agree with what I've been finding in my own research, so I think they are accurate. We should soon be receiving a call for an intake appointment with a therapist.
I find myself reacting in several ways: I feel happy that my gut feeling of something being wrong has been vindicated - in spite of the fact that my brother-the-psychologist stated that dd8 was "probably fine." I feel hopeful that homeschool is possible - and that it can be more than just surviving drudgery. We were told that, given her age and her diagnoses, it's likely that she'll be able to learn enough explicit social skills to be able to blend into the world fairly well as an adult.
The fellow who worked with her for the evaluation is an autism specialist. I'm not sure he's used to working with 2e kids because he stressed several times that her IQ meant that she "has the world before her," as if a high IQ can solve everything and make any career choice a great idea, regardless of strengths or weaknesses. He also stressed several times that we ought to consider putting her in a B&M Gifted and Talented program for socialization and instruction. "After all, teachers go to school an extra year or so to learn how to teach gifted kids" and "being both mother and teacher is asking a lot of you." Overall, he generally seemed to be keeping his bias for public school under wraps, but it would occasionally pop up.
I'm hoping the therapist will be more understanding about homeschooling.
I'm planning to order several books today, a couple of which were suggested by the evaluator. I also need to find small, short social activities for dd8 in areas of her strengths. (I realized that I've been censoring her social involvement since our interstate move, probably because of a subconscious desire to avoid the awkwardness that inevitably ensues and which will likely be even more pronounced here where people haven't known her since infancy.) We're trying a new strategy for school work, too - short, very focused bursts on subjects that she's struggled with in the past, with breaks in between.
Simply having anything proactive to do - and feel it's justified due to an actual diagnosis - makes school better at the moment!
Thoroughly enjoying this bit of sunlight,
Mama Anna
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Wow. Thanks so much for sharing that video! Some things about my dd8 make so much more sense now! And this was a particularly good day for me to watch it as my mil added her 2 cents regarding dd8; "It's just her personal idiosyncrasies - there's nothing actually wrong."
<sigh>
That was an hour and six minutes that were well spent.
Thanks!
Mama Anna
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If this is a form you are filling out, I would not try to write in the margins. Instead, say "see attached paper," and then attach an additional document, on which you have typed out a description of her struggles, any curriculum that you use and the level that she is using, and what you do to accommodate and modify her work. Indicate that the work she is able to produce does not match her intellectual ability. You can substantiate this by saying that she shows much greater understanding when allowed to do her work orally instead of writing it down, since handwriting is the particular area of struggle. You can say that she has had more struggle than peers (which is true, because in her case her peers have been her siblings).
Specific Learning Disability in written expression covers two areas -- the motor planning and physical act of writing, and the ability to get thoughts onto paper. If you see problems in both of those areas, be sure to mention both.
If she is working at or above grade level in certain subjects, you can indicate that as well, but if there are specific areas where she struggles, mention them. For example, a student may be great at understanding math concepts but also struggle with memorizing math facts.
Thanks! I see that the bolded text above does need to be my chief goal. I have already written up a few pages that outline my concerns in general and I was thinking it would be a good idea to send a copy them in with the paperwork. If I can tweak things well enough to communicate what the evaluator needs to know . . . (It may help that it's a neuro-psych instead of public school personnel.)
Thanks to everyone who chimed in - I really appreciate the knowledge base of these forums!!
Mama Anna
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I'm starting a new thread on this just in case others are in the same place.
I received the packet of stuff I'm supposed to fill out and send back in before 8-year-old dd's initial eval. (In late December. <sigh>) They want to know how she's doing in various school subjects compared to her grade. How do I judge that?
We work on all the subjects that they ask about, so that part is fine. However, I don't have a standard of comparison for her; her sisters were beyond where she is now when they were her age, but they're not "average." My sense is that she's at or near grade level in everything but handwriting stamina - because she has continual and generally intense one-on-one support and review, etc, in her hs experience. If she didn't have it, I'm dead certain she wouldn't be where she is in spite of the fact that (I think) she's 2e.
Do I try to explain this in the margin of the paperwork?
Do I try to research and compare her to some internet-discovered grade norm?
Do I note down my sense of where she is due to my personal expectations for subjects and abilities?
For those of you who have BTDT, what should I do?
TIA!
Mama Anna
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Since you asked -- for the 8 year old, dysgraphia sounds like a possibility, due to motor skill issues and trouble with both the physical act of writing and getting ideas out. Running a CTOPP to test for phonological issues would be beneficial. Social skills (also called pragmatics) is another area to ask them to test, as well as general language skills. Someone can have good verbal ability but still have language holes. A good NP will run IQ testing; probably the WISC, which will measure working memory, verbal and nonverbal skills, processing speed, fluid reasoning, etc. You can ask them to screen for ADHD and if you suspect autism could be possible, the NP may run something like the GARS, which is a screening tool (but a full screening for autism would involve more).
Thank you! This is exactly the type of thing I was hoping for. I'll see if I can find more information on these tests.
For the 11 year old, the writing and math issues could be rooted in ADHD, or they could be indications of possible learning disabilities in those areas. For DS13, medicating the ADHD at age 9 really enabled him to work on math without getting so frustrated. The difference was striking; instead of being so overwhelmed by the idea of doing math that he couldn't even get started, he became able to actually get it done. Now, he does have a math disability as well, so math is still hard for him. But with the meds, tackling it becomes possible. That's just a little picture of the affects that meds had on one person; it is not meant to promote the idea of meds, but just to show that ADHD can have a big impact on ability to accomplish academics, and treating it in some way (meds or other therapy) can make things easier.
Thank you again. Dd11 does well with general arithmetic (though fractions can send her over the edge) but now she's seeing hints of algebra and I'm wondering if she's simply not ready for such abstract stuff. She's also finding Critical Thinking to be a challenge, but that's very similar to math in many ways . . . She is a young 11 and, if we keep with our present math trajectory, would be doing MUS Pre-Algebra next year just as she's turning 12. I may need to give her a year of something else in between, or it could be that medication would focus her in to where things crystallize. I'll to keep my options open as I watch her through this year.
You probably know this, but the public school can run testing for learning disabilities for free. I think you are on the right track by requesting NP testing for the 8 year old. You may be able to figure out what the 11 year old's issues are with less testing (and less money) than a NP would do, by talking to the doctor about ADHD testing. If improving focus does not make enough difference, you could then pursue academic testing through the school or privately.
I hadn't thought about going through the school system. I'll need to do some research there, too.
Thanks!
Mama Anna
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Thanks again for your advice. I'm spending time reading through various links, etc. I wanted to clarify our situation a little because I'm afraid I've given an incorrect impression. We have three daughters:
dd 14: Moderately gifted, especially in LA. Her social abilities have been a concern since our move a little over a year ago, but she now has at least two recurring settings where she seems to feel comfortable and is (according to what we hear from her) able to talk with peers easily. School for her is only complicated by trying to keep her challenged without overdoing it.
dd 11: Likely moderately gifted, very creative. She was diagnosed with Proprioceptive Disorder about 3 years ago or so. I think she shows symptoms of ADHD, specifically a tendency to move/hum/etc. ceaselessly, an ability to become very focused on something she enjoys doing, and an occasional difficulty in focusing that drives her to tears. Her gross motor skills are low, but her fine motor skills have always been impressive. She is the most outgoing person in the family, is generous to a fault, and very empathetic. She's one of those people who pick up something to fiddle with and end up with a 3-D work of art. I read over a list of DSM4 Diagnostic Criteria for Autism and she really doesn't fit any of them. Difficulties for her in school are that she resists writing (but is willing if I keep my requests reasonable), and finds algebraic math/critical thinking very challenging due to her focus issues. She'll tell me, "I can't focus - I can't focus!!" and then, with hormones involved, often dissolve into tears. This hasn't been as bad during this school year yet, but it was almost daily at the end of last year. I spoke to my brother (the psychology professor) about it because I thought meds might be our only option to help.
dd 8: Challenging. Very challenging. Late walker. Late talker, with odd vocal intonations and hard-to-understand speech. (In spite of having no ear infections as an infant.) Very strong-willed, used to bully her older sisters when they didn't give in to her, especially around ages 2 to 6 or so. Very low frustration threshold, often frustrated with herself. Somewhat perfectionistic, wants to hold herself to her sisters' levels of ability. Her gross and fine motor skills are at least somewhat delayed. Loves to talk and will talk ceaselessly, becoming annoyed at "interruptions" - when her sisters or parents want to get a word in edge-wise after 5 minutes or so. She has a somewhat advanced vocabulary. Very good at telling others what to do, and quite good at solving problems in the family - if a rather untactful in the process.
In school, writing tires her out - as in a line of cursive, with pencil pressed hard against paper, will exhaust her over the course of the 5 to 15 (or more) minutes it takes. She often has difficulty formulating what she wants to say in a history or science narration - and since I usually scribe for her still, that part doesn't involve the writing. She's just turned onto reading in the past 6 months or so and is beginning to work through easy chapter books on her own, although I can tell that she guesses often. Her spelling could be considered grade-level (We use Spelling Power and she tested into level C this year.) She doesn't seem to have difficulty with arithmetic concepts, but the facts are a challenge. Grammar makes sense to her, she only struggles with written exercises because of the writing. School is difficult because she so often gets frustrated and "melts" off her chair onto the floor. When she's not frustrated, she's a bright, energetic child (loves to dance) who is trying hard on the social niceties that we've worked on within the family. Socially, she's very intense or else completely shy and doesn't have very many friendships. Our neighbor's grandson comes over occasionally and they seem to do well together (same age), but in a group she doesn't do so well.
Our homeschool isn't horrible. It can be intensely stressful, especially when both youngers are having difficulty at the same time and we've got a time limit on us due to outside activities. However, we tend to fuel school with humor and add chocolate for lubrication as needed. My personal troubles are because gently talking someone out of a fit of tears or off the floor from a "melt" is not my natural reaction and I find it exhausting. It's good for me, though; character development. :) There have been times when it's seemed that I won't stay sane if I have to keep "pushing" dd8 through school every. single. day. We've considered putting her in public school, but I'm not convinced that they would have the energy or time to keep her going. I fear they would label her, give her only as much input as she can handle output, and all the social stuff would only get worse. This means that it's me. Which can look like DOOM on days when depression is toying with me, you know?
I've tried to consider dd8 as simply on the edge of "normal" for years, partially because I didn't want people nosing around our homeschool (that was in a state where we weren't required by law to notify and therefore hadn't) and partially because I didn't want to be the mom to insist that all my children must be "special." Except that now I think they might actually be . . .
Part of my difficulty is that I have no reference for what "normal" actually is. I come from a weird family and I married a weird guy. We're not very close to the people in his family who might actually be "normal," and I seriously don't know that anyone in my family is. I find myself thinking, "Well, it's understandable . . . I can see this or that tendency coming from . . . " until a kid does something that my mind just can't rationalize as "normal" anymore, even by our weird standards. Then I think of seeking an expert opinion.
Sorry. That was a lot. But you all are offering valuable insights and I want to make sure that you have a better handle on my perception of what's going on.
Any further insights? I've been thinking APD for dd8, but what else should I investigate in order to be ready to make specific requests for evaluations?
TIA,
Mama Anna
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Not to be glib, but ADHD meds make our home life a thousand times better. Trying them because you feel they are the only options stinks. Trying them because you realize they could help is freeing when it all works out. Take some time to consider it and to see what you need to do in addition to meds (they help the brain be ready, but then the child has to learn some strategies as well).
Thanks for this. I have an adult friend with ADD, and she has said similar things. Another hs mom with several special needs kids told me, "Don't medicate as a matter of course; if the kid sees a need for it, then do it. If they want to come off meds later, check with the pediatrician and let them." But that would require already having a diagnosis, wouldn't it?
On professionals--we've all had professionals that were awesome and some that were so-so, and some that were awful. A neuropsych is the gold standard, but really, it's about getting someone who wants to help you and help your child be the best person they can be. They need to be willing to believe what you say, even if it conflicts with a report (and then figure out how to help you if the answers are inconclusive). It's not about them being "right." Some psychs are more about being right than helping, and then they get really picky about labels--they might see only one kind of ADHD and not realize it presents differently in various children, for example (a very oversimplified example!). School psychs can't necessarily diagnose, and they may be limited in what they will test. You can't beat the price, and sometimes you strike gold. Ed psychs are another option. The one we used has been fantastic. We also tried a neuropsych and were not happy. Other people have had exactly the opposite experience. I would try to network with other moms of 2e kids (if you can find an extracurricular gifted program, they will likely have recommendations). You can also read up on 2e (twice-exceptional) kids on Hoagies' Gifted page, Gifted Homeschoolers Forum, etc. Those pages might give you details on what to look for in a psych.
Gifted kids with learning or developmental issues are CHAMELEONS. Get an expert that knows this, and if the expert does not, think long and hard about what you can expect from them so that you have a context for the advice they give you.
I value this advice. I just hope I can recognize expertise or lack thereof when I see it! :)
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I think we can definitely relate to those feelings. I would like to send you hugs of encouragement for all those hard days you have faced and will face in the future.
Thanks for the hugs. :)
But I also want to address evaluations. Yes, you asked and I say yes please, please get evaluations through a neuropsychologist. Why? Because you aren't after a label, you are needing answers and a path that is more productive, that doesn't require so many daily battles/stress/tears. You need your kids to be successful but not at the cost of their self-esteem and hopefully their love of learning (which can die pretty quickly). And you need to help them in ways that make better sense for how their brains function.
I waited years to get evaluations because my mother and my husband especially did not want the kids "labeled". I wish I hadn't listened. I don't give a darn about the label except as it gives me better answers. Getting evaluations gave me badly needed answers. And a much better path for my kids. I don't regret for a moment finally getting evaluations and answers. And you know what? My kids were so relieved to get answers, too. I did not present those labels as deficits because in many ways they aren't. I showed them how many strengths they have, not in spite of their weaknesses but BECAUSE of the way their brain works. Flip side of the same coin. And we started using material and presenting information in ways that made it so much easier for them to learn. Not easy. Easier.
I know already that the differences bring strengths alongside of them. What I hear you saying is that an evaluation will show what those strengths are and how to take advantage of them.
I appreciate your encouragement. I have a brother who is a psychology professor at a university in another state. I approached him during a visit last July 4th about getting our 2nd daughter evaluated for ADHD. His reply was that 1) He didn't see anything in her behavior to suggest such a diagnosis and 2) if I really wanted to go ahead and get her evaluated anyway, I should ask him for a suggestion in our nearby city so that I could get a proper expert to do it. When we finally decided to get our 3rd dd evaluated, I emailed him for a suggestion. He replied (in similar fashion) that he was sure she was fine, but suggested taking her to the local Children's Hospital since he judged the personnel there would be able to handle the evaluation well. This is the same place our pediatrician referred us to when we asked for a referral.
On the one hand, I feel confident that the Pediatric NeuroPysch department at this hospital will do a good job with her.
On the other hand, nothing makes me second-guess myself like an expert family member saying, "She'll be fine." Except that he sees the girls once a year, generally on their best behavior, and he's never worked with a single one of them through a day of school.
So, question: Is an evaluation (for ADHD, among other things) in the 11-year-old something that needs to be done immediately, or can I wait to start the process until I get the 8-year-old in and see how things are done? (I don't know if there's a age window for working with ADHD or something.)
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I'm sorry you're having such a hard time. Yes, it sounds like you should go ahead and pursue thorough, private evals for your kids. So did you get an OT eval? I would encourage you *not* to think of their sensory issues as slight, because my guess is it's affecting them MUCH more than you realize.
Well keep us posted on how the evals go. It sounds like evals will give you a lot more epiphanies and help you make the changes you're clearly wanting to make! :)
Yes, we got an OT eval. That pediatrician (different state; we've since moved) listened to our concerns about lack of physical sensitivity and referred us immediately. I don't believe there were any other specialties/evaluations involved.
I described 2nd dd's condition as "slight" because the OT did not consider it severe and it's not really noticeable in public. There are also some odd things that don't fit into the description. I didn't press about my ADHD concerns because I was under the impression that a medication prescription would be automatic and I wanted to avoid that. At present, I have no idea if that concern was valid or not.
Can I ask a couple of questions?
1. What constitutes a "thorough" evaluation? Do I get to request certain tests? How do I know what to ask for?
2. What do you mean by "private?" Do you mean through some avenue other than the public school?
Thanks!
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We've been hsing for 10 years now. I've been on and off these boards for most of that time. It's been a hard journey, and I've often wondered why.
We've got three bright dd. By test score standards used by our local B&M school, our oldest is demonstrably gifted. Our second is at least on the edge, and the tests don't even address her particularly strong areas. I haven't tested our third yet, but I know that there's nothing low about her IQ. But why, when I read so many descriptions of wonderful hsing, with it's incredibly flexible schedule and the marvelous opportunities to perfectly fit the education to the child's needs, etc, do I keep having to assume that I must be failing?
For us, hsing is rewarding but difficult. I often find myself exhausted after a morning of school, and those people who say that repeated tears mean a curriculum automatically isn't working would have to revamp our entire school, it seems. Why is it so hard? Why am I so lacking? Why can't I skim through the day with a hug here and an encouraging comment there like so many others seem to? These are good, generally respectful and obedient kids. It can't all be due to behavioral problems. So. How much is my fault? My teaching style? My school design? My personality?
Well, there is the fact that our second was diagnosed with a slight Proprioceptive Disorder and shows signs of ADHD, though I haven't had her tested since I haven't wanted to label her. (Should we just go ahead and do it? Honest question.) And our youngest has always been a challenging child. However, it hasn't been until now, while I'm awaiting the call-back for a referral that our pediatrician very willingly put in for a neuro-psych eval for our youngest, that I've really visited this forum on the boards. Reading through your posts, I've had an epiphany.
That exhaustion that comes from pushing a child all the way through to completion on a single page of handwriting, even though it takes over two hours (not including the breaks you give her to work on other things so she can rest a bit)? The stress that comes from talking a child down from near-hysterics every. single. time she comes across the distributive property in her math work over a period of weeks? Those aren't signs of failure, even though they occur on a daily basis. The fact that I've got to lean on my God in prayer through so many "routine" school mornings is not a sign of my failure.
Exhaustion, stress, the felt need to curl up in a fetal position and cry during lunch - these aren't signs of failure. They're battle scars. I'm a warrior who is showing the effects of the battle I'm fighting for my girls' education. I'm not fighting my girls, you understand. I'm fighting my own impatience and goal-orientedness. I'm fighting their distractions, their hormones, and their frustration. I'm trying my best to train them to fight through their challenges and keep going. When a battle ends with work completed and a sense of success on their part, it's a victory. On those occasions when they look at me with that light bulb on and their eyes shining - well, that's the glorious moment that all teachers live for, I think.
So, thank you, fellow warriors. I needed to realize (again) that failure isn't finding something difficult; it's giving up.
Bless you all. Keep up the good fight!
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. . . and how young did you begin teaching your children piano lessons?)
We've tried different ages. We started our oldest at age 4. She lost enthusiasm around age 6 or 7 and while we kept her in lessons for another 5 years or so, it's been a struggle. We started our middle dd at about age 6 and she lost interest around the same age. She has other challenges, though, so we adjusted how she learns (a little bit of new stuff, carefully supervised, every day instead of a lesson each week with practice on her own in between) and she's still in there working on it. Our youngest began lessons at age 7 and still seems interested one year later. (We'll see how that continues!)
Our experience taught us a few things:
1. The child of a musician may or may not have a keen interest in making music, regardless of natural talent. Pushing doesn't do any good. (You'd think we would already have known that, right?) Leopold Mozart was definitely the exception rather than the rule.
2. Music lessons taught by parents are challenging because there are often more immediate things to do, which means that a child can go a couple of weeks (or more) between lessons. Also, private lessons taught by parents have the same characteristics as classes taught by parents: the teacher/parent tension.
3. Starting earlier isn't necessarily better, even if they're showing interest. It probably all depends on how you go about it, though.
YMMV! :)
Have fun! (Seriously!!)
Mama Anna
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I can't tell if you're asking how we presently incorporate it into our school or if you want ideas that you could use to create a salable music curriculum. I'll try to answer on both sides.
Currently: We teach each dd piano. (Dh and I are both ex-music majors, so we can do this.) When we notice that music is being played by ear instead of read, then we emphasize reading musical notation more. We've worked a bit with recorder lessons and outside-taught violin as well. I'd love to teach sight-singing, but that's a pipe-dream with both oldest dds.
For Music Appreciation, we also teach composers/instruments through history a la WTM suggestions using Bellerophon coloring books. We've used the Classical Kids CDs and lots of youtube examples. The goal is recognition of a few pieces, an understanding of basic musical form, and an appreciation for musicians as living people. We've gone on to check out other cultural styles of music/instruments, as well.
If I could have a simple "Music Curriculum" that would incorporate it all, what would it look like? Hmmm . . .
Major composers: photos, vignettes from the life of, how their lives/styles/etc. interacted with current history/other art forms/etc. (Possibly have various levels available for this section.) At least one full work for listening, preferably one that is especially memorable for some reason.
Western Instruments: videos of people playing them. Solo recordings, possibly group recordings (All four string instruments playing together, etc.) to recognize timbre. Work up to a video of an entire orchestra playing something attention-getting. (Maybe "Night on Bald Mountain" or something of equal strength?)
Non-western styles: Ragas, Steel drums, Gamelan, etc. A bit of cultural background on each and a video of a piece performed. (Maybe get into music that accompanies culturally important theater in various countries?)
Practicum: I second the idea of recorder. Maybe video lessons as an option for parents who can't personally read music? Get note names and values down along with time and key signatures, some basic dynamic markings, etc. Kodaly is another option for teaching young children to sing.
Basically, I think a computer-driven curriculum would be best because of the ability to play audio and video. Lots of color, lots of high-quality performances - it would be awesome!
HTH!
Mama Anna
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I'll add my 2 cents into this discussion, for what they're worth. I've worked 2 daughters through age nine now and, though they have quite different personalities, they both fell apart around that age. Could it be a stage?
Dd-now-14 has always been on the dramatic side. (That's an understatement, by the way.) She was fiercely jealous of her 3-year-younger sister's "lack" of work at that age and daily tears were not unusual. I would often cut down math and grammar assignments to give her a break, just making sure that she could demonstrate her knowledge of the subject. We had a deal: if she demonstrated on a few problems that she knew what she was doing, she would be done. If she made an honest mistake, she had to correct it and be able to explain it to me. If she obviously just rushed through things, I'd give her some more since she obviously needed practice. (Those few days when she got more practice were very tearful indeed.) Personality/character-wise, she's always needed a little more pushing than her sisters, so I felt comfortable with this. Now that she's 14 years old, she's only occasionally tearful and much better able to work on her own. (I still sometimes trim work for her, though. We run a pretty rigorous school and I have to be careful about overloading the girls.)
Dd-now-11 was always laid back, busy, and fairly contented. Her greatest difficulty in school was the constant movement that made her fall off her chair after 5 minutes of working on her math. Around age nine, all that changed. (We think she may have undiagnosed ADHD due to the constant motion and the extreme difficulties of focus that she's displayed since.) She became easily overwhelmed, tearful, and incapable of remembering 5+5. (Seriously. Deer-in-the-headlights. No clue. Nothing.) I cut down her problems like I had her sister's, but it wasn't enough. Now, I work with her a lot. If I do a problem on a white board while she's doing it on her paper, my working with her keeps her focused. I sometimes read the grammar to her and have her write down the answers. On really bad days, I'll scribe for her or even let her do grammar orally. The point is not so much pencil-to-paper, it's knowledge-into-brain-into-practice. Note: This has really upped my time commitment to teaching. It's still frustrating at times, and some days there are still tears. (That's leaving out my youngest, who is another post.) However, I have a commitment to educate these young minds. We try to laugh as much as we can to offset the stress and homeschool isn't pure drudgery, but it isn't heaven, either.
Concerning attitude, I also support the idea of waiting until a calm time and bringing up what you're hearing. It's very likely that she has no idea what she's sounding like. If the two of you can agree that the atmosphere of the home needs to change, maybe you can discuss together options for improving it. I know that such discussions in my home usually end with both me and the child coming away with one or more adjustments to make - even if mine is simply, "I will try my best to not interrupt you when you are complaining," you know?
In any case, don't give up. Give her grace and remember that her body is likely doing weird things to her that she doesn't yet understand. Anything that can be made fun is awesome. In our house of girls, chocolate has turned many bad days around. Silliness, song, and dance still seem to work.
HTH!!
Mama Anna
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I'm almost all the way through R&S English with my oldest daughter; from English 3 to English 9&10, Book 1. She takes to writing/grammar like a duck to water, and the program has been good for her. I've found it very thorough, well-explained, and solid. This daughter has complained that the writing assignments expect too much moralizing by the time you get to level 7 or 8, but then all teens complain about something, right? She also outlines and writes in various other subjects, using what she's learned in R&S. The writing part of the program seems to intensify in the higher level books. As she's getting into Great Books, I'm scaling back her writing assignments from R&S this year.
My second daughter has less of a love for grammar and writing. (Especially, the manual act of writing.) She's been through English 3 to English 5 and will begin English 6 this year. I've still found the thoroughness of the program to be a good thing, and often am able to adjust the grammar exercises so that she has to write a few words rather than copying long sentences. When she's working on a writing assignment from R&S, I'll often scale back her other writing to not overwhelm her.
I've been very happy with R&S. We've worked into R&S 3 using the older edition of FLL (combined 1&2), so the girls have experience with copywork and dictation, as well as basic parts of speech before they get there. I'd list the pros of R&S English as thoroughness, open-and-go (depending on the student - there aren't any scripted passages for teacher involvement), and a nice mix of grammar, writing, and research skills. (Oh, and editing skills in Books 9 & 10 - those are great!) The cons would be having to decide which of the multitudinous exercises your student actually needs to do in a particular lesson, some out-dated reference skills (Few people need to know how to read a card from a library card-catalogue these days.), and a tone that can come across as "preachy" to a teen.
As for whether R&S English is enough writing instruction on its own, I'll have to see. My oldest daughter is a natural writer. By the time my second daughter finishes the series, I'll have a better handle on that question . . .
HTH!
Marie
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We're trying to (more or less) do WTM-style history here. I'll have a dd13 (8th, somewhat accelerated), dd10 (5th) and dd7 (2nd) next year. As good little WTMers, we've followed the 4-year cycle and will be doing the Modern Era (1850 to Present). History is going to have to go differently than it has in past years for several reasons:
Dd13 is pretty responsible and able to work on her own. In fact, I've taken advantage of this for the past several years to the extent that she has had little interaction with me about History and is finding the encyclopedia/timeline/extra reading/summary cycle pretty boring. (No! My daughter is not liking History!! How can this be happening?!? Aaaaargh!) She loved SOTW because of its narrative quality. She's not happy with moving through an encyclopedia, skimming the surfaces of various subjects, and needing to come up with thought-provoking things to write about the Acts of Enclosure, etc. My idea for change is to give her a carefully selected set of topics from World History in the Modern Era and a rubric of requirements for each (names, dates, etc.). She would then spend more than a week on each subject and hopefully be able to dig in deeply enough to find one or more narratives, resulting in not only a better understanding but also more personal enjoyment. I would keep tabs on her work on a weekly basis and she would do a written or oral report at the end of each subject. (Thoughts? Advice?)
Dd10 is graduating from SOTW this year and will need to shift into the Encyclopedia/outlining/timeline/narration stage. Problem: she's nowhere near a natural writer and will need her hand held through a large part of at least this first year in Logic Stage. She is also easily distractable (not a very independent worker) and loves projects.
Dd7 will be doing SOTW and will need constant interaction. She's not writing well on her own yet so that narrations will still need to be dictated for at least the first part of the year.
How do I work these second two together? Due to time constraints, they're going to have to do history at the same time. I'm heroically nerving myself to cut chapters out of SOTW 4 (it'll be my first time to not "finish the book" and the thought is making me somewhat batty) in order to slow the history flow down somewhat and allow for flexibility. I can still work Dd10 into projects for SOTW 4 along with dd7. Other than that . . . ?
I figured I can't be the first person on this board to face this. Does anyone have some BTDT to share?
TIA!!
Mama Anna
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I really appreciate this thread! I've thought of a loop schedule before but have always dismissed it out of hand because it hasn't made sense to me. After watching most of the video linked above, I'm back to being very intrigued. I have a question, though:
How to you make sure you complete a certain curriculum if you're doing it in a loop? If the main point is to not stress about missing occasional days, how do you make sure you get in all 112 grammar lessons or the full 41 history lessons? (Is loop scheduling only for those who aren't obsessed with "finishing the book?" :sad: )
Mama Anna
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A thought about socializing, though it might not help for leadership opportunities: Skype? Actually, I know that some music teachers give lessons over Skype. It might work to conduct long-distance club meetings or something . . .
(Just trying to brainstorm with you here!)
Mama Anna
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Welcome! One further suggestion I'd add to the above is that you find this book or another like it and read through it. This book is specifically Christian, in case that matters. I really like it because Duffy, the author, works the reader through a lot of basic questions about education, teaching time, learning styles, etc., and then gives you a very careful review of 102 curricula. For me, especially starting out, having something like a list of "tested curricula" to choose from made the overwhelming array of choices easier to manage. (This isn't to say that you can't find good curricula outside of this book, but I'd recommend it as a place to start.)
Finally, remember one of the best parts of homeschooling; if something doesn't work you can change it. You don't have a bureaucracy to go through in order to change plans mid-year. Give yourself permission to not necessarily get it all right the first time out and you may find some fears heavily reduced.
God bless!
Mama Anna
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In addition to looking at the level of the mother's confidence in math, I'd be curious about girls who grew up in an otherwise all male household. I did and I'm comfortable with math.
My mom was the only other female in my household growing up and I grew up loving math. Of course, I'm from a skewed sample because my dad is a university calculus professor who didn't know how to relate to a middle-school daughter other than try to explain calculus to her. :)
However, I didn't end up heading toward STEM; I chose music instead. My love for science and math does mean that our educational priorities rate them pretty high, though. (Besides, it's just so much fun to figure out how things work . . . !)
Mama Anna
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If you asked me this a year ago, or ten years ago, I would have said no. I would have said teach her at her level and pace and that is where she is.
THEN..my son, who I thought was just not that bright, I tested him. I had him take the ITBS and COGAT. He had done the ITBS before, but not COGAT. He scored in the 70s percentile on the ITBS, which is not gifted. He always refused to do his work. I figured 70's was a stretch for him. Plus, he spent time in public school. I thought maybe he had learning disabilities too. I had posted about issues with him before.
But on the COGAT, he was 99th percentile across the board! He was not learning at his level. Because he was academically behind due to not doing his work, ever, he was not at a level suited for him and he was getting further behind.
Not learning at level due to lack of desire to cover basic skills (like math facts) - that's definitely one of my concerns about dd9. Thanks for your story! (Off to research the COGAT.)
Mama Anna
Have you ever held a kid back/repeated classes in later grades (junior high/high school)? If so, what factors influenced your decision?
in Logic Stage & Middle Grade Challenges
Posted
This is late, but just in case the question is still up, we made the decision to hold our youngest dd back in Logic Stage. She's young for her grade and gifted. However, she's been diagnosed with HFA as well as ADD-Inattentive. Her processing speed is low and the work load of 6th grade was taking her so long most days . . . ! What we decided to do was basically just stretch out 6th and 7th grade to cover 3 years, thereby allowing her time to develop socially, mentally, and intellectually in hopes that she'll be better prepared to handle Algebra I, more intensive reading, and larger writing assignments when 8th grade finally rolls around. She's not repeating anything - just moving more slowly through her subjects.
So far, things are going well. It'll be odd with her extra-curricular activities, switching grades in the middle of the school year, but she only has a couple and if they don't ask, I won't make a big deal of it. 😉
HTH!
Mama Anna
(Note: signature is pretty out of date.)