It's used for summative assessment in the US too. When I tutored English, students needed to pass a timed essay test in order to place out of remedial classes. By the time they came in for help, most of our students had taken the test and failed it a few times. So we were definitely teaching to the test, which is why we used a very bare bones version of the 5 paragraph essay. And you know, I not a fan of teaching to the test in theory, but I was left with a very positive feeling about how well that tool (the 5 paragraph essay) worked out for a lot of people. I know that's not the point of this thread. I'll look for your old thread, thanks!

Okay, that makes a lot of sense. So it's the WAY that the five paragraph essay is taught -- the rigidity of it and the bean-counting approach to sentence structure -- which is a problem. Yeah I agree, that sounds terrible. Many years ago I tutored remedial English students at a community college. Many of my students were intimidated by having to write at all. The basic structure of the 5 paragraph essay (thesis and supporting evidence) was really helpful; it took the mystery out of writing and gave them a clear way to structure their arguments. So I guess I think of the 5 paragraph essay as a good starting point. As writers grow stronger and more confident, they can branch out from it. I didn't realize that it was being taught in such a senselessly formulaic way. I don't see any value at all to bossing students around about what kind of sentences to use,

I'm curious about what "composition" would look like in classical education. And I guess I'm also curious how you all think composition should be taught, in general. I notice a lot of people on these boards really hate the five paragraph essay but I haven't seen any explanation yet of why. Is it because it's taught in a cookie-cutter way? Is it because it's the only style of writing taught?

This is such an interesting topic! How do you guys handle scheduling, especially for the longer projects that span months? I can see how in some cases there's a natural end-product (a paper or a science fair project) but what if there isn't? I guess part of the benefit is that the kid learns how to plan out their time and stay focused over a long period of time?

I largely agree with this but I do think that for a certain personality, test taking can be a useful part of education. It was definitely useful for me, a generally distracted student. Taking tests gave me a shot of adrenaline and focused my mind. I can still remember tests I took in high school. I also do think there are plenty of careers that reward that ability to work quickly and effectively under pressure. Law, finance, and to a certain extent tech all call on those skills, for example. So I agree that students should focus on learning and should aim for mastery, rather than superficial, glib learning. Idon't think testing should be a big part of education but I think there is probably a place for it.

Haha I'm on my way, have always dreamed of visiting New Zealand!

My kids are small and not super conscientious, so if I wasn't top-down they wouldn't brush their teeth, make their beds, or practice their handwriting. Sometimes I get tired of being in charge and I look for a way to get them on board with being more self-led. Honestly, this generally backfires. I end up feeling like it's actually less intrusive to just be the Parent In Charge. I am really jealous of people who can create this more child-led approach though. Those of you who talk about being more peer-to-peer with your kids, what do you do when, say, they don't want to go to bed, or do their chores? or when they get older and they break curfew / don't do their work / etc? I think I grew up with a pretty top-down model so I'm curious about the nitty gritty of how this works. I know a few people have said you just explain to your kids why something is important, but what if they fundamentally disagree?

Hm. Thanks. I never thought about it that way. I don't know if it's a writing issue exactly -- I think it's more like he wants to plunge into the book instead of having to plan out the narration in his mind. In a way, it's sort of like how he would rather do math in his head instead of working things out on paper. I don't fuss about how he does his math (also he can see how sometimes it doesn't work in his head and he NEEDS the paper) but I do think narration is a good skill to have. Still, maybe I need to think about switching up how we do this...

I love this -- it's inspiring and also liberating. Thanks for taking the time to write this out. I also really appreciate the reminder that kids are going to be grumpy sometimes, no matter what. This gives me a lot to think about.

I mean, I do let his free time be free. When I say that I tried to turn his interests into school, I was thinking of times when I brought home a book and he got excited about reading it until he found out it was a "school" book which he'd have to narrate. That's when I get told that turning "fun" stuff into "school" ruins it. Or there have been times when I give him a writing assignment and I try to give him some leeway on picking the subject. Generally, I get told that he doesn't want to write about anything he's interested in because that turns his interests into "school" and, yup, ruins them. So I've backed off from those types of suggestions! On the other hand, there are times when he's totally happy to produce output. Like he loved reading the Narnia books and wanted to create a set of cards to represent the characters. Or he'll spend hours figuring out basketball statistics. I never suggested that stuff at all. I want his free time to be free. I want him to have lots of space. I just sometimes think he'd get more out of his formal schooling if he had a little more say into the broader shape of it. Like he'll say things like, I wish we were studying ancient history, or, I want to learn about plants. I know he is still going to grumble about school, but I'm thinking of experimenting with giving him a little more say in things.

That would be plenty for me too! State requirements do get in the way, but some of it might be just me over-thinking things. So the biggest annoyance, for me, is that the state wants him to do US history every year. Whereas he would love to study ancient history. I guess we could do both, or do US history in a more cursory way and then spend more of our time on ancient history. Besides that, there aren't really explicit requirements. Just science, language, etc, and you're right, all of that could be met through interest-led learning. I think what happens to me is that, because I have to send a detailed report on his education, I end up looking up the state guidelines on each subject and loosely following them, even though they aren't requirements. I'll have to rethink this approach though.

I've seen a post you wrote about interest-led learning, and that's part of what motivated me to write this actually. If I understood right, you still use a lot of structure, but you let your kids choose their broad topics? So, they choose, say, which period in history they want to study, but then they have to produce regular output? I'm not sure how that would work for us because our state has a lot of requirements, but I'm definitely interested.

Thanks. That makes sense. I mean, I actually think my kid DOES love learning -- he's a bookworm with lots of interests. It's just that he's grumpy about the formal school part of our day. Mostly, I keep formal schoolwork pretty short so that he has plenty of free time to do his own thing. I just sometimes wonder whether there's a way to tailor school so that he looks forward to it.

My oldest kid is in the third grade. He's a bright kid and has always been a voracious reader. He loves history, stories, myths, etc. BUT he grumbles about anything that he sees as "school." This means that most of the time, I have to do some cajoling and prodding to get him to do his work. Once he gets started, he enjoys it and gets into it, but it does get tiring always having to prod him. Most of the homeschool parents I know are doing some kind of child-led / unschooling / unstructured education, and they are always talking about how much their kids "love" learning. I get really jealous. Why am I the only one with a grumpy kid? However, every time I've tried to turn one of my kid's interests into schoolwork, he says that it's ruined because now it's required. Really I think he means that it's ruined because I require some kind of output on schoolwork (oral narration, written paragraph, timeline, it depends). Can anyone else relate? I guess I'm trying to figure out whether this is mainly a mother-child dynamic that I need to work on / accept, or whether it's a curriculum issue that I can fix by giving him more freedom.

I sort of have doubts about that HSP quiz -- but I love quizzes, so I took it. I qualify as on the high side of HSP. For me, the actual home schooling is the easy part of my day. I know exactly what I'm doing, but it's not rigid; I love the constant challenge of reshaping my plans to meet my kids where they are. I sometimes struggle with the other parts of the day. I want my kids to have lots of free time, and sometimes they thrive on it but at other times they get restless and demanding. We live in an apartment so I can't just turn them outdoors and make them play. I don't know if this struggle is related to being an HSP, or if it's just that homeschooling and family management is tricky!

There are a few things that have helped me -- staying in touch with my feelings so that anger doesn't catch me unaware; lots of regular exercise and sleep; finding positive role models. But one of the biggest things, for me, is trying to remember that I am not responsible for my whole family running smoothly all the time. I think a lot of the time my nerves get frayed and I get angry because I blame myself for everything that goes wrong, big and small. I even blame myself when my kids misbehave ("I should have set them up for success," etc). My mom recently told me that I have to make my kids carry their own load. which doesn't mean yelling at them or burdening them unduly, but does mean that I can't blame myself for their actions. That was mind-blowing for me -- and very relaxing -- so I wanted to share 🙂

My kids are much younger. But I was a lot like your son in many ways -- a bright kid who really hated doing schoolwork. I was also deceitful ALL the time about grades etc. Don't beat yourself up. I think it's kind of natural for a teenager to lie about these things. What worked for me was finding a good peer group. There was one year in high school when I had a group of hardworking friends and, because they were always studying or doing homework, I started studying and doing homework too. I know you tried an online class, but maybe there's an in-person class he can take? Even a creative writing workshop or something at the library? If he liked the people there and enjoyed the classes, he'd probably do the assignments. Depending on his personality he might even like a class meant for adults -- sometimes it's fun to be the youngest in a group.

I wonder this myself. I know some families who have tutors for foreign languages, and they pay $20 for an hour-long session done over video chat. The rate seems really low to me and I wonder how the tutor could make a living at it, especially since they do prepare a fun lesson and send follow-up materials. My friends really love their tutor and are always describing how they go above and beyond. I had been thinking of doing tutoring on the side, but those rates and those expectations discouraged me.

It's really inspirational reading about people who love hosting Thanksgiving...especially people who can relate to my feelings! Who knows, maybe one day I'll host Thanksgiving myself. UNO sounds like fun.

I am grateful not to host Thanksgiving! I'd happily do ALL the cleanup if I didn't have to be part of the dinner planning. I think many people feel that way -- it's just so much lower pressure. Every year we all compete for who can get to the kitchen first to start washing dishes. Being in the kitchen means gossiping with whoever else is in there, drinking an extra glass of wine, AND feeling virtuous, while everyone else is arguing over when to serve dessert.

I really miss the days when I was the irresponsible relative. I'm way too old to feel this way but I do wish that I could still show up for Thanksgiving dinner with just flowers, or a bottle of wine, or some other feckless offering. No, now I'm assigned side dishes and I'm an integral part of the event -- this is super hard on my commitment issues and leaves me with zero wiggle room. I'm mostly kidding. I love Thanksgiving and I love seeing everyone. But something about all the planning and pressure brings out my inner teenager.

I hear you. I guess it's hard for me to understand why it would matter if a 6th grader messes up one assignment. Maybe I'm misunderstanding, or maybe people are responding to something I can't see yet. But it sounded to me like leaving the kid free to flounder would make sense in that case. I really do mean the question, I'm not being snarky.

I'm new here and my kids are still small, so I just wanted to say that this has been a really useful discussion for me. I dealt with a lot of my own executive dysfunctions as a child and young person -- heck, I still deal with it. It was far, far milder than what some of you are describing, but it was enough so that I lost all my gloves and lunchboxes and transit passes, didn't turn in assignments or study for tests, and generally missed out on administrative information. As a child I firmly believed that I was missing meetings at which everyone else was given key information. (Spoiler: I wasn't missing meetings. I was just lost in a dream world.) The academics were never a problem, but everything else! I wasn't given much scaffolding by my parents. They simply didn't think that way. And I intend to do far more for my own kids. It's lovely to read about what everyone here does. At the same time. This thread has made me nostalgic for what my parents DID give me -- a sense of great freedom and confidence in my own ability to improvise. I have fond memories of walking for miles to high school (because I had lost my transit pass and spent all my money); staying up all night to do a year's worth of math homework, with only the radio for company; failing, here and there, and making friends with the other "screw up" kids. I know that you're all talking about more serious EF than I dealt with. But there IS something to be said with letting kids explore their own abilities, in a safe space. There IS something to be said for failing, within reason, now and then.

Thank you!!

Thanks a lot. Those comic books look exciting and I'll look for the book about Kublai Khan. Ambleside, yes wow. I've always used it selectively, and as one tool among many. Their year 3 curriculum, though, is unsettling. Suddenly the book lists aren't just eurocentric with flashes of racism -- they are downright racist. Not all of them but still. I'm okay with reading literature, or primary sources, that include racist attitudes, because I see that as a chance to talk about racism. So, I do't have a problem reading my kids Little House on the Prairie. I do have a problem with "history" or "geography" books that are full of unexamined racial stereotypes. Ugh.