In the Bight
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Posts posted by In the Bight
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With five kids at home now instead of one, I'm very much enjoying not having to provide the entertainment!
I did cave and allow my 11 & 12-year-olds to make a joint Tiktok account on my phone, mostly to get them to stop graphing coronavirus curves. 🙄
My oldest son's 13th birthday is coming up next week and his best friend (and her mom) are setting up a surprise birthday party for him on Zoom! It will also be the first day his aunt and uncle can join us from their self-isolation in our basement, so it should be a decent birthday overall.-
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Are you sure school food programs don't exist in your area? I live in Canada and my kids' schools have always provided both breakfast and lunch to kids in need, both in Ontario and now in Newfoundland. I'm sure these programs don't exist in every school, but I always assumed they were common across the country.
At my kids' schools, the breakfast program runs on donations and is available to all students. Many kids whose parents can afford to feed them breakfast choose to eat at school with their friends, and their parents support the program with donations. Out of that money, the schools also provide lunch to a small number of students who arrive without lunch for whatever reason. If a child came to school regularly without lunch, the school would speak to the family and then contact social services if necessary, but they would also continue providing lunch as long as the child was hungry. In Newfoundland, there's also a formal school lunch program in some schools.-
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My two youngest siblings have been self-isolating in our basement apartment since coming home from abroad last week, but the rest of our family is not keeping any distance from one another. It doesn't seem possible long-term with five school-aged kids. We will split up (upstairs v. downstairs) if someone becomes sick or comes in close contact.
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10 hours ago, ByeByeMartha said:
I've been hearing that rumor that schools in many states may not start up again until fall the earliest. I'm curious how that would work. Would students still advance to the next grade? Wouldn't they have missed out on a lot of required learning from the previous grade?
We don't expect schools here (in our little corner of Canada) to resume until September, which means our kids will miss 14 weeks. It was announced today that "All K-9 students will be progressing to the next grade level, no matter what occurs with the remainder of the school year. Teachers will respond to learners’ needs when this academic year resumes or the new school year begins." We're expecting to hear about high school plans within the next few days, but there have already been assurances that all students who are eligible to graduate this year will graduate.
It was also announced today that curricular instruction won't be taking place for Kindergarten to Grade 9 students while schools are closed. Teachers are being asked to provide learning resources and maintain relationships with their students, but won't be delivering specific curriculum or placing expectations on students/parents. From our director of education - "There should be no reason for families to be stressed or concerned about trying to recreate what is achieved in the regular school environment. Within the District, our current collective focus is on our learners and our staff; on maintaining and even strengthening our relationships. These are challenging times for us all. Let’s focus on doing what we can, while looking after our own health, supporting each other, and attending to those in need around us."
I have four kids in public school (along with one homeschooler) and their teachers have been in communication with us through Google Classroom, mostly providing resources for parents (how to talk to your child about Covid-19, how to help children cope with anxiety and transitions, etc.) as well as a few online learning resources. They're working on getting each class set up with some kind of group video chat, which I'm sure my middle schoolers will appreciate!On 3/17/2020 at 3:38 PM, Farrar said:These are interesting.
Have any of your districts announced what they're doing about grades? I've seen a lot of districts talk about ditching all spring grades and just putting kids down as pass/fail. The big problem they're running up against for high schoolers is NCAA rules - which many of you know that a P in NCAA speak is a D on your GPA.
Our district hasn't announced high school plans yet, but our local university has informed students that they will be able to choose between receiving Pass/Fail or numerical grades. It seems to be the best solution for the most students.-
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1 hour ago, wendyroo said:
I have filled out a whole lot of rating scales in my time. Our doctors have always wanted me to fill out the teacher forms (as well as the parent forms). I am the one who is responsible for teaching the child. I am the one trying to keep the child's behaviors from negatively impacting my other "students". I am the one who sees and facilitates and troubleshoots the child's participation in extracurriculars.
I try very hard to honestly fill out the parent and teacher forms from the appropriate perspectives. We see many of the same behaviors during school and non-school times, but they do manifest differently and cause differing levels of impact in different settings.
While filling out the teacher forms, I do try to view some questions through a more conventional teacher lens. When questions crop up about how behavior impacts the child's grades, I try to translate our homeschool experiences into data that the doctors can understand. While I do not actually assign grades (certainly not for lower elementary students), if a child is throwing tantrums over school work every day, tearing up any assignment in his reach, hurling books at his teacher, and producing no written or verbal output whatsoever for weeks on end (and only grudgingly and halfheartedly paying attention to input)...that certainly would negatively impact his grades if he were receiving them.
Wendy
Thank you! I hadn't really considered that he might ask me to fill out both forms, but I can see how that might make the most sense. I'm hoping the psych will get back to me tomorrow. If he does ask me to fill out the teacher form, I'll certainly fill it out the way you described, but I'm not sure how I'd be able to answer questions about behaviours that are different at school vs. doing school work at home. My biggest concern with these rating scales is that rating his behaviour in the last month won't capture some of the biggest issues he had at school last year. His behaviour at home has never reached the level it did at school, and filling out a teacher form without including those behaviours seems like it would minimize them? I've already sent in Ds9's report cards, incident reports, IEP, BMP, etc. from last year, so maybe that's enough?
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We're traveling next week for Ds9's psych assessment and just received several rating scales to complete before the assessment along with teacher versions to forward to Ds's teacher. I responded to remind the psychologist that Ds hasn't attended school since last April and asked what he suggests we do (at least one of the rating scales asks you to rate the child's behaviour in the last month), but was wondering what you all have done in this situation?
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We're only in Week 2 and this year already feels like a lot. Lots of struggles, lots of positives. Lots of tears, lots of support. Just a lot.
Starting with the easy stuff - Our youngest, Dd4, started kindergarten and is loving it! Her best friend is in her class, so all is right in their world. 😊💓
Ds12 and Dd11 are both in middle school this year and off to a good start. They're strong students who enjoy learning, give a good effort, and listen to their teachers, so I'm sure things will continue to go well in the classroom. Ds has been recruited for the math team, Dd plays saxophone in the band, and they'll each play several sports. Socially, it's middle school and I'm worried. Ds says there haven't been any issues this year, but he was "outed" by a classmate in May and bullied online by a small group of kids from his school, so we're obviously still very concerned about similar issues coming up. The school handled the situation well and the principal, guidance counsellor, and PE teacher all let me know last week that they're continuing to keep an eye on Ds and the other kids involved. The school admins have also scheduled LGBTQ+ professional development and will be starting a GSA in the next couple weeks. Dd plans to join, but Ds says he isn't interested.
Ds7 is having the hardest time. The beginning of every school year is hard for him because he struggles with separation anxiety and finds change overwhelming, but this year is on a whole other level. He doesn't have any trouble getting ready in the morning or saying bye to one parent at home, but starts crying as soon as he gets to school and refuses to let that parent leave. I tried last week without any success, so they suggested Dh bring him this week and still haven't been able to get him into his classroom at all in the mornings. Ds comes home for lunch and has been able to go to back to school and into his classroom each afternoon after being upset for just a few minutes. He's still too anxious to fully participate, but he loves his teacher and is excited to tell me about his afternoon when I pick him up. I spoke with the school psychologist today, and based on his suggestion we're having my brother-in-law bring him to school to see if that makes things easier for Ds. We have a meeting scheduled for tomorrow afternoon to follow up and discuss next steps, which might include starting Ds later in the day and working backward. The psych also let us know that Ds has been approved for a psychoeducational assessment, to go ahead whenever Ds is ready.
Ds9, our only homeschooled child, spent last week camping with relatives and we started our first full, official homeschool year on Monday! I posted about him in the spring and will likely be back very soon to ask for more homeschooling advice, so I'll keep it brief here. He had an SLP assessment last month and has a psych assessment with an ASD specialist next month, so I'm not going to make any huge changes or major demands on him until then. This week I've mostly focused on getting us back into a solid school routine, which is slow going for a kid who barely sat down all summer. Math is definitely our highlight - I'd planned to spend the first few weeks reviewing, but Ds remembered everything except rounding and was eager to move on with new material, so that's what we're doing!
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1 hour ago, Storygirl said:
Your plan sounds good, and it is so positive that he is having a good attitude.
Is he your only? You may have said, but I don't remember.
As you transition to homeschooling, keep in mind that maintaining that positive attitude and willingness to work is a key part of homeschooling success. Can you homeschool a reluctant kids with a poor attitude? Sure, but it is horribly hard and discouraging for everyone.
So as you plan out what you will do academically, try to mix in a lot of fun and keep a priority on maintaining a good relationship with him.
That probably sounds like a light and fluffy bit of advice. But the attitude and relationship problems are what sank homeschooling for my family, so I see it as essential.
He's the 3rd of 5 kids - 3 are in public school and our youngest starts in September.
I really do appreciate your advice and sharing your family's experience. Without getting into too much detail, my son's behaviour at school became unmanageable this year, which led to him attending part-time and now homeschooling. His behaviour at home has never reached that level and he responds much better to me, my husband, and my husband's parents than to other adults, but I do fear this will change now that we're homeschooling and I'm asking more of him. I'm also very, very worried about how our relationships will change as he gets older, which is one of the many reasons homeschooling isn't a long-term solution for us.
Right now, he and I have a close relationship and he understands that I'm on his team, so I'm trying hard to maintain that. Mixing fun things in has been tricky, because the school-related things I thought would be fun (science experiments and math games) felt like work to him. We'll still do them, but now that I know they're "work" I think the only thing we can consider "fun" is physical activity.
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19 hours ago, PeterPan said:
That sounds like a really good plan! And yes, some kids get through Barton 4 and just take off. I'm so glad you were able to talk with Barton and the SLP and get it sorted out. Your plan sounds really solid now. You'll see this when Barton comes, but the program weaves in some light conceptual grammar. It might be enough to make you feel ok about not doing more till fall.
Thanks! He's adjusted really well to being home full-time, we both feel good about how his other subjects are going, and we have lots of material to fill out the rest of this year in math, science, health, etc. In that context, I'm okay with not hitting everything in language arts and focusing on a few areas that seem most important. I had him write thank you notes to his teachers this morning and I'll try other little bits of fun/relaxed writing with him so he hopefully won't be too resistant when we start a writing program. He's enjoying the novel we're reading and is asking lots of good questions about the Holocaust and WWII, so a trip the library is on the agenda for tomorrow. We're also reading some non-fiction readers that go with our current science unit, but are technically part of the Grade 4 Language Arts curriculum, so I'm counting them.
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On 5/6/2019 at 8:13 PM, Pen said:
I know this isn’t true for all kids, but once my Ds was able to read the High Noon Sound Out Chapter Books fluently, he was then in large part able to pick out what he was ready for both in terms of content and reading difficulty .
Some more difficult books were listened to as read aloud a or audiobooks, but some I was pretty sure he’d want to read I saved as carrots for his own reading as he was able to do so (Harry Potter series, for example).
For him around age 9 as an emerging reader, Magic tTreehouse was a big help— both fiction books and fact trackers. Read as him reading them aloud to me. At the same time as that he was able to start silently read Rick Riordan books. I think reading aloud is generally harder for a lot of people than silent reading, but was important to make sure he was correctly reading. He also read some books silently where he clearly skipped difficult, uninteresting or too mature parts (sci fi particularly at around age 11).
My ds who is dyslexic/ dysgraphia still doesn’t write cursive. His printing gradually has gotten decent.
Typing started with Talkingfingers.com and that was a huge help
Magic Treehouse is about the right level for him to read out loud, but Rick Riordan would be too hard for him now even silently. Or at least too intimidating for him to try. I had been planning to do the same thing you did and hold off on reading certain books out loud, but it didn’t feel right when his siblings started reading those books so easily.
He started learning cursive last year at school, but they dropped it with him pretty quickly to prioritize other things. I'm going to take him through a couple of the Handwriting Without Tears printing books and then see if he’s interested in learning cursive. It’s not required after 3rd grade in our schools, so if he doesn’t want to learn I won’t push it.
As an update - I spoke to Susan Barton and the SLP this week and have a tentative plan to finish out this year. Further advice or recommendations are very welcome, even things to look into or come back to next year. Our school year ends on June 28 and I’ve already warned all my kids to expect one hour of school work per day in July. Shopping for “enrichment” materials for the other kids is a nice break.
Susan Barton was very kind and answered a bunch of questions I had. She couldn't say for sure that he needed a program as intensive as Barton, but she was sure it would help him. Susan recommended that we skip Foundations in Sound and start Barton Level 1. She said it would be okay for us to do it in shorter sessions, aiming for two 20-minute sessions per day.
The SLP is available to assess him in August. She strongly encouraged us to bring him then, and said it would be very important to test his social language before the psych assessment in October. She’s also able to test his reading and processing skills at that time. I asked what she would recommend we do for now about reading and mentioned that I had been looking at Barton. She said to go ahead with Barton Level 1, but all the Barton levels probably won’t be necessary and she’ll know when she tests him.
So, we’ll start Handwriting Without Tears tomorrow (it arrived today and looks perfect) and Barton Level 1 when it gets here. My son asked me to read the book Milkweed to him, so I found a study guide online and will use it to help guide our discussion and gauge his comprehension.
Thanks everyone for your help! I'm sure I'll have plenty more questions and am so glad I found a group of such knowledgeable and thoughtful mentors!
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1 hour ago, PeterPan said:
So did *he* say the words aloud to identify the sounds or did you? Vowels are a pretty big deal. https://bartonreading.com/student-result/ You might give Barton herself a call and see what she suggests. She might say to go right into Barton 1 or she might say you would be wise to go through FIS/LIPS to build that foundation. Vowels are super, super important, and these phonological processing programs like FIS/LIPS are going to do a STELLAR job helping him discriminate them better. You can also do something simple like the Attention Good Listeners worksheets. They're your cheapest option (around $30 if you can find a copy) and they might be just enough.
But seriously, give Barton a call. She's a lovely person and she'll probably have some good advice for you.
I'm not sure what words you mean?
Three of his four mistakes were repeating the sounds back in the first place. Like for /o/ /a/ /u/, he said "/o/ /u/ ... /u/ was last. I forget the rest". For /i/ /e/ /i/, he pulled down three different colours, then realized he'd made a mistake somewhere when he started to "touch and say". After he got it right on the second try, he said it was the hardest one and most of the others were really easy. I asked what other sounds were hard and he said /o/ and /u/.
2 hours ago, PeterPan said:Yes, pictures are improving comprehension and visualization. The problem is, the F&P stuff is pushing pictures, whole language, meaning over decoding SO MUCH that he really be imbalanced. He could be skipping words, guessing, assuming, or making generalizations instead of understanding every word. For my ds, that was a thing, to make sure he understood EVERY WORD. He's super bright, so he could understand at the larger level. He just wasn't necessarily understanding at the word level.
What you could do is back off on asking him to read independently and read aloud to him more. Read the picture books, but read aloud and sit beside him so he's seeing it. You could even popcorn read if you wanted, with him reading a line, you reading a line. But back it up to where he can do that and where he can STOP and discuss and make predictions and talk about what the character's problem is and what their plan is and how it's like something they've gone through and all that.
Did you say he's diagnosed with ADHD as well? Are meds on the table? You're getting his eyes checked. You just want to make that as easy as possible but supporting all the components. (attention, impulsivity, visual tracking, phonemic awareness, etc.)
He does have severe ADHD and started medication in kindergarten.
This is all good stuff, I'm just going to have to think about how to try some new things without messing up what's going well! I don't ask him to read anything on his own, but he does read aloud to someone for 20 minutes/day. It took a long time to build up to that, so I think we'll keep that routine until we have something concrete to replace it with. I'll start reading another novel to him in the next couple days. It probably makes sense to back up to something easier than Number the Stars so he and I can both practice the kind of discussion you're talking about, but maybe it makes sense to back way up and share the reading.
I CC'd the school psych on my email to the school SLP, and he let me know that she's out this week and doesn't have a CTOPP. He's not sure about other language testing, so I'll have to wait on that. Also still waiting on the other SLP.
The school psych recommended the Phonological Awareness Screening Test and sent it to me in PDF. So my kid is going to be very sick of testing very soon. 😄
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34 minutes ago, Storygirl said:
Also, when he is at home, reading books at a higher level, is he reading them silently to himself? Or out loud to you?
DD13 (dyslexic) can definitely read things to herself silently that she cannot read well out loud. Of course, I am not inside her head. But I think that when she reads silently, she jumps over the words that she can't decode easily. She has great comprehension, so she gets the gist of the sentence and just keeps moving along. When she reads out loud, she has to go slower and work harder at decoding, because she (and whoever is listening) can hear when she is not getting a word right.
When she was in third grade, she could read a third grade novel silently to herself, but it was too laborous to do it out loud.
I'm just referring to books he reads out loud. He does read some books listed as having even higher reading levels silently to himself, but they're always full of pictures and often books he's read before, so it's hard to know how much he's really reading. I know he does find it easier and faster to read silently - when he brought home comprehension worksheets, we negotiated reading some aloud and some silently because there was such a big difference for him. I haven't really encouraged silent reading, because I think he can still use so much practice reading aloud.
1 hour ago, Lecka said:I think too, it’s not even exactly comprehension necessarily, because it’s really easy to get into “the child really does understand.” It’s about being able to answer certain kinds of questions in certain ways.
Or it could be about having a summary that includes certain information.
The teacher should know if anything like this is the case.
Thanks, I will have to check in with the teacher to find out.
I gave him the Barton screening today and he passed all the sections. He didn't have any errors on Part A or B, but had to repeat four in Part C before he got them right on the second try. The ones he missed were all vowel sounds and he said they were harder.
On the tests that ElizabethB linked, he scored a 2.3 on the grade level test and slowed down 21% on the MWIA 3. On the nonsense word test, he read 9/25 correctly the first time. When I slowed him down and got him to sound one out at a time, he figured out 17/25.
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44 minutes ago, PeterPan said:
Let us know! Obviously we hope he passes and that would be awesome. But if he doesn't, then you've got super important data and a path you can go on right away that will be going in the right direction.
See in the US, some states have disability scholarships, so then we have these IEP fights over whether there has been RTI, what the diagnosis is, blah blah. But you don't have anything holding you back. You can get that data and have at it.
If I could just suggest, I would fill out your SLP testing before you buy stuff. It's expensive to ship stuff to Canada, and if he has a language disability as part of his mix (which a lot of kids with ASD do, sigh), then it may or may not be appropriate. And you can look at the samples and tell a lot. Or just plain try the samples on him.
That's a pretty big jump from K to O, so that's interesting. You might look for patterns there, like which books have pictures, whether there's a pattern with font sizes, whatever.
You can also look for where his level of engagement changes. Lecka linked you to the F&P comprehension questions for each level, and they're pretty normal. You can also just see where he laughs, where he can tell you what his favorite thing in the book was or what he thought was wrong vs. where he fades out and can't interact like that. You can see if there's a difference between his read aloud level where you read vs. when he reads or his level with pictures vs. without, etc.
Not to flood you with ideas, lol. It's just the kind of stuff I watch with my ds, because then I can use a lexile index finder (or F&P or whatever, but I use lexiles because I'm lazy and it was handy) to find more books that will work once you know what is working and why. It's one of the challenges, bulking up on language and keeping kids in books who are staying at levels longer, sigh.
I'm totally okay with being flooded with ideas! I keep lists, and don't mind having things to come back to later on.
For MCT, I was thinking of trying it with him in the fall, or possibly getting it this summer and having my older kids try it, rather than jumping in now. I'm going to get him started with Handwriting Without Tears and hold off on any other writing, spelling, grammar, etc. until I get reading sorted out.
When I look at the difference in reading levels, my first thought is that he's more relaxed and focused at home, versus reading in front of peers or in a testing situation at school. Probably even a bigger difference is that he chooses books for himself at home or I choose books that he'll like, whereas at school he was given books to read that could be on any topic. I'm sure he's much more motivated by the books he chooses about baseball or pokemon or that he knows his big brother recommended, and he's so familiar with the topics and vocabulary that it has to be easier.
When you say his read aloud level, do you mean the level of books that he can understand when someone reads aloud to him? That probably sounds like a silly question, but I'm just wondering if there's more to it. He understands when age-appropriate books are read aloud and we discuss them, but I haven't asked him all the types of questions that are in the F & P comprehension guide. We just finished Number the Stars because his teacher had been reading it aloud in school, and I'm wondering if there's a specific reading level I should choose for our next book.
55 minutes ago, PeterPan said:If op is having some mom guilt, could I say up until we started K2 (something we take along with vitamin D to make it work better), that would not really have been reality with my ds? So don't have a lot of mom guilt there if it's not working. It's nice and great stuff, but sometimes near, not touching, is what you get.
Oh, there is no mom guilt about that. 😊 We cuddle up each morning to watch the YouTube videos he's saved for me and maybe a science video, but I can't see us doing any other school work like that. Though who knows, we're still figuring out what works!
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4 hours ago, PeterPan said:
Wow, that's sad that he had SO MUCH intervention from the system and still tests so poorly.
It's like there's this constant fight in the system where they keep wanting to revert back to whole language, making it sound like there's some huge dichotomy between OG and reading for meaning. So they end up focusing on meaning so much and not being strong enough on the explicit side.
Looking back now and compared to what I see about RTI online now, he has had quite a bit of intervention. Which is possibly why he didn't score low enough last year to be diagnosed with a learning disability? At the same time, he's had such a hard time with attention, anxiety, and behaviour that it's hard to know how much of that intervention time has actually been spent on task.
2 hours ago, PeterPan said:The Barton screening is not a dyslexia test. It's a screening tool to see if he has the foundational phonological processing skills and adequate working memory to succeed at any OG-based program. It's definitely worth doing because it gives you quick, free information you can use right away. If he's failing that test, you'll want to know because those skills will glitch ANY program he's trying to do. https://bartonreading.com/students/#ss
Did you end up getting that SLP literacy specialist scheduled?
I do understand what the Barton screening tests, but I think I was assuming that he would pass? Looking at it more closely now (as in actually watching the video...) I'm not so sure. I'll give it to him in the morning now that I've gone through the trouble of figuring out how it works!
I left a message for the SLP on Friday and expect to hear back tomorrow. I did find out that she works part time from her home 2.5 hours away and part-time from a clinic that's much closer, so I'm really hoping she'll be able to get us in.
3 hours ago, Pen said:I made some comments and gav e links on this thread related to adoption trauma issues that might also be applicable with regard to your child. Your child could certainly have ASD. Mostly adoption/ foster / disruption of care backgrounds kids I have had experience withhave post adoption issues, however, which can look a lot like ASD (or other problems) but may be its own unique issues that respond better to post adoption type therapy (which has been improving as more is learned)
If your child is having adoption trauma issues, MCT (Michael Clay Thomas) materials starting with Sentence Island might be nice to read to him with him sitting on your lap—thus working attachment and LA at same time.
Making up stories sentence by sentence coallaboratively could also be useful (if it can be fun not stressful and if you scribe)
Bravewriter online Kids Write done with my son , again with a lot of togetherness worked well for my son.
How is his reading? My experience was that writing wasn’t all that useful to work on till reading was remediated
ETA by level K reading is this what you mean?
https://cms.instructure.com/courses/130361/pages/Reading Level K
(alas I am not familiar with any book it mentions as Level K!)
Thanks! I hadn't read that thread and was probably subconsciously avoiding it, but will give it a read now. We have educated ourselves about adoption-related trauma and attachment and worked with different counselors over the years. Neither of our adopted sons have any of the major RAD or DSED symptoms, but both are definitely affected in different ways.
I was actually looking at MCT and am thinking about getting the Island level. My other kids will love it, even if it's too advanced or challenging for this one. I got a smile out of the idea of having him sit on my lap while we work - he's just about an inch shorter than I am. 😊
His reading Level K is in the Fountas and Pinnell readers that ElizabethB linked. They use these levels to track all the kids' reading until 3rd grade, then just for the kids who get intervention. I googled to find real books at Level K to give as an example, but saw that the books he's reading aloud at home are considered Level M - O? So all of these reading levels and assessments are probably just a very rough estimate...
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36 minutes ago, PeterPan said:
In the US we have RTI=Response to Intervention. Did your school do this? It would be important to realize what tiers of intervention have already been done and not duplicate them, losing valuable time.
Intervention materials and methodologies in the US will have a "tier" assigned. So programs like Barton, Wilson, OG, etc. will be tier 3. I would HOPE he already had some kind of tier 1 or tier 2 intervention through his ps given they're acknowledging how poor his reading is. You could dig also dig through the testing the school has done to see if there's anything on language, working memory, etc. that you should know.
Here's a link to completely free OG. http://www.marooneyfoundation.org/professional-learning.aspx
His school introduced RTI last year, when he was in 3rd grade, but he was actually getting more/better intervention before they brought it in. I'm not sure whether it's poorly designed or they just don't have the resources to implement it well, but parents are very unhappy with the change and I know a few teachers who are beyond frustrated.
As for my kid - He started getting pulled out for reading with 1-2 other kids halfway through 1st grade. In 2nd grade, it was for reading, writing, and math. He had an amazing resource teacher that year and made a lot of progress. In 3rd, he did RTI for reading and didn't get pulled out for writing or math. This year, he qualified for RTI in both reading and math. They use Leveled Literacy Intervention for reading, and I know the school doesn't offer anything like Barton or Wilson.
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7 hours ago, ElizabethB said:
Most of my students who come from schools who are behind in reading are behind from balanced literacy teaching and sight words and remediate quickly with my free syllables program and other free and cheap resources. If you give him the reading grade level test and either the MWIA 3 or MWIA 1 depending on his score on the reading grade level test. Also, give the nonsense word test.
Students scoring at the 1st grade level or below on the 40L QST should take the MWIA 1 short. Students scoring above 1st grade level (a score of 1.1 or higher on the 40L QST) should take the MWIA version 3.
The nonsense word test WPM scores compared to the MWIA scores give me an idea of what he is struggling with and how to fix it.
The tests are linked at the end of my syllables page:
http://www.thephonicspage.org/On Reading/syllablesspellsu.html
For active children, you can do a lot of things to hold their interest. This video has some ideas:
You can print out every word from Blend Phonics on a card and use them in a variety of games where you have to run somewhere to get each card before you sound it out. I use a subset of the Blend Phonics words in my syllables lessons.
http://www.donpotter.net/pdf/blend_phonics_decoding_card.pdf
Thank you! I had seen a few of your other posts and saved the website to come back to. There is so much there, I really appreciate this direction for where to start.
I've printed out the tests and am playing around with them now with my (much more patient) older son. For the MWIA and nonsense word tests, should I have him do Version A, B, and C, or is the intention to use Version A now and the others to retest later?
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9 hours ago, PeterPan said:
The ADOS is a funny thing. Someone else here on the boards has shared widely ranging scores, same kid, from test to test. It sounds like your team made a considered decision looking at all the evidence, which is what private psychs do also. If you think the private psych will add something to the conversation, I can see what you're wanting that. Unfortunately, most psychs tend to use very brief materials (like the CELF) for language screening.
What has your ps SLP run? I'd be wanting something for expressive language, narrative language, pragmatics, metalinguistics, etc. All this would be done by an SLP. Also some SLPs will do the CTOPP (phonological processing) and writing tests to screen for SLD writing. And an SLP typically has a much shorter waiting list, meaning you could get this information much sooner.
I think pragmatics testing would be very interesting to you and might flesh out some of the social thinking and autism deficit questions you're possibly having. Here's an article that explores different patterns of social thinking and how they correspond to strengths/deficits, outcomes, needed interventions, what types of settings they do well in, etc. https://www.socialthinking.com/Articles?name=Social Thinking Social Communication Profile
The only testing we've had from the school SLP was the CELF when he was 6. Last year, the school psych evaluation included the PPVT, EVT, and an academic assessment that had some oral language subtests. I'm waiting to hear back from both SLPs, but you've convinced me that we need to get more info about his language - both the phonological processing / reading side, and the expressive/narrative/pragmatics side - so I'm really hoping the private SLP is able to evaluate those areas and can get us in reasonably soon.
Okay, that social thinking article is seriously interesting. I'll have to come back to it this weekend when I have a bit more time.
9 hours ago, PeterPan said:Oh there's a sharp resource! For real you don't have access to OTs in your ps??? Wow. Anyways, on the developmental optometrist, she *may* have a CTOPP. You can just talk with her. They're funny and sometimes have more tools than we expect. It would be really nice to get a CTOPP and get a baseline before you begin intervention. Fwiw I've had both my kids checked by developmental optometrists. Just seems a good thing to me. My dd, not dyslexic, needed VT, while my ds, diagnosed dyslexic, didn't. Go figure, lol.
The TILLS is another up and coming test right now SLPs will run, and it hits a bunch of language areas with one test with MUCH BETTER sensitivity and specificity than the CELF (spit spit).
The developmental optometrist isn't local, but she has convinced me to bring my youngest to her this summer so I may go ahead and have her test this son as well. Looking back through our reports, the school psych did test his VMI last year - VMI 25th percentile, Visual Perception 73rd, Motor Coordination 12th. "Mild difficulties with tasks that require fine motor coordination".
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15 hours ago, PeterPan said:
Not sure what to say about the Canada thing btw. It seems like some people in your country get great help and that people in other provinces get frustration.
As far as your dh, is he on the spectrum? That would be a reason why he's missing it. Or he's got some male pride or something. It was already diagnosed, so it's illogical to try to undiagnose him. How old was he at the time of diagnosis? It's fine to get a 2nd opinion, but I'm just saying save yourself the grief and get off this whole believe, don't believe, disagree in the marriage train. Say somebody else decided to call it ADHD with social delay. IT WOULDN'T MATTER. The interventions are the same, the MRI scans show the same parts of the brain affected for social thinking, and the symptoms that got him the diagnosis are the same.
ASD is a more global explanation that gets you better access to services and opens more doors. It would be FOOLISH to try to undo this by pursuing evals, withholding information (which he could conceivably do while filling out forms, since he now doesn't like the diagnosis), etc. Are you paying for this? If you are, then my advice, having btdt on this very issue, is to get a BCBA or someone with significant experience with autism. Let them come into your home and let them spend hours with him. Psychs see a kid for just a few hours. Bring that BCBA into your home and let them see it all, all the behaviors, how he really is. Then see what they say.
My ds had an initial diagnosis we thought was incomplete, but when I had professionals (administrators in social skills programs, etc.) saying it's clearly ASD, you need to get a 2nd opinion my dh started to say I was diagnosis shopping. The ps tried to say that. Well we now have 3 psychs in a row and a behaviorist all agreeing it's ASD and putting the support level at 2. Kinda makes you wonder how the first psych couldn't see it. He just wouldn't listen, didn't do the testing himself, on and on, don't get me started.
So why open yourself to that and make problems for your ds? What testing did they run the first time? Did they do an ADOS? Did you as parents fill out behavioral forms? Now the behaviorist brought development forms like the Vineland, scales for adaptive living, etc. There was all kinds of data in there that were were able to provide that made it SO clear it was autism. But it wasn't stuff typically a psych would do, because it's more kinda in the trenches.
I'm sorry if this sounds a little defensive, because I really do appreciate the time you've taken and all the experience you've shared here.
We aren't trying to undiagnose our son, shop for a diagnosis that we like better, or make things harder for him. Our son has struggled so much this year that we truly feel it's necessary. The school district's autism specialist and psychologist have gotten to know him very well this year (never a good sign!), and both are supportive of us going outside the system to get this evaluation. My husband is not on the spectrum and isn't ignoring or denying our son's issues. He was on parental leave for most of this son's kindergarten year, so he took the lead on getting an IEP, the initial assessments, etc. and has stayed very involved. I probably shouldn't have spoken for him because it's been a while since we've really had a conversation about the diagnosis or evaluation so I'm not sure exactly where he is with it now. We are entirely in agreement about getting the evaluation and just waiting now, so we've mostly put it out of our minds and focused on more immediate issues.
I should say that we have no plans to walk into the evaluation and make an argument against ASD, but will provide all the information and let the psychologist decide whether to repeat the ASD portion of the assessment. When we spoke with him on the phone, he explained that he'll review all of our documentation before the first appointment and decide which tools to use when he meets with us. We could ask him *not* to reassess for ASD, because he does assess for other issues in kids with ASD, but that seems like a wasted opportunity to get some more information and put our concerns to rest. Our son was 6 when he was diagnosed initially and that evaluation included the WISC, CELF, ADOS, and ADI-R. He didn't score in the ASD range on the ADOS, but did on the ADI-R. So, I can see how there may be some value in repeating them. Even if the psychologist sees it differently and just tells us to accept the diagnosis, I'll feel much more comfortable getting the rest of the assessment from someone who has so much experience with ASD.
15 hours ago, Storygirl said:I know you weren't asking for an opinion from anyone about the autism question.
I wasn't really prepared to discuss the autism issue, but I am glad you responded to it. I do appreciate hearing your experience as someone who's been on the other side of the diagnosis question and as a parent a little ahead of where we are.
When we were waiting for the ASD evaluation three years ago (we spent a year on the waiting list), we absolutely hoped he would be diagnosed and felt a sense of relief when he was. Within the last year or so, I've started to feel like the diagnosis is actually making it harder to break down his individual issues because everything is attributed to autism. We've had several parents tell us how lucky we were to get the ADHD diagnosis first, because they've had such a hard time finding someone who will assess their child with ASD for anything else.
In terms of making sure he has access to services as an adult - the evaluation will be with a private psychologist, so if we did come away without an ASD diagnosis we wouldn't be under any obligation to share that information with the school or health systems. Right now, the ASD diagnosis doesn't provide our son with access to many services, but I know more will become available as he gets older and wouldn't want to do anything to prevent him from getting supports he needs. I think that's something to work through if we end up in that situation, because it's not our most likely result and still at least six months away.
16 hours ago, Storygirl said:About the learning issues and language arts...
I have wondered about dysgraphia. His writing is not easy to read and he complains about everything (I forget how to make a G, my hand hurts, can I use a marker, how do you spell it, etc.), so I know it's a lot harder for him than it should be. I've been reading through some of the handwriting threads and decided to get started with Handwriting Without Tears. I'll look for other dysgraphia-specific recommendations and some other activities we can do. Thanks for the Writing Skills recommendation as well - it's helpful to hear how and when you used it with your son, and seems like something we could work up to over the next couple months.
13 hours ago, Storygirl said:Also, about comprehension. It's great that he is having no problems with it. But keep an eye on it.
Thank you! The comprehension work that was sent home was just the basic worksheets you described. They do cover things like sequencing, making predictions, and making inferences, but it's very simple stuff that he could do without any real thought, so it's possible that we're CLE sounds more thorough and I'll take a look.
12 hours ago, PeterPan said:Love everything Story said, and she's really right in the trenches on that. As far as the handwriting, my ds has struggled and it turns out he has poor VMI (visual motor integration) despite several years of OT, sigh. That at least gives us something concrete to work on. I got that testing through a developmental optometrist, but apparently it's testing an OT could/should have done.
If you compare what the SLPs call vocabulary, concepts, attributes, etc. to your ASD language interventions (Verbal Behavior approach, VB-MAPP ,etc.) they're just using different words for the SAME THINGS. Data now saves heartbreak later.
I'm linking Rothstein below. It's oop and that's how I found it, as a pdf online. The version on Linguisystems right now is a different author, radically different text. I LOVE this book. I expanded each section with https://www.linguisystems.com/Products/31856/spotlight-on-vocabulary-level-1-6book-set.aspx
Remember, attributes=adjectives. Functions=verbs. Categories will drive his ability to pick up his room, realize what is relevant/extraneous in his paper, etc. etc. So holes at this level will drive heartbreak the rest of the way. Not all kids with ASD will need this, but given how much he's pushing back against writing and that he's struggling at the bits of words level, it would be good to check. This https://www.linguisystems.com/Products/31162/sparc-for-grammar.aspx also pushed the window on how I saw these skills interconnecting, because he needed to use them in narratives, etc. Sometimes kids understand components but aren't using them independently, so it walks you through the process from understanding at the word level to using it in sentences to using it in narratives.
Anyways, here's Rothstein.
http://www.e4thai.com/e4e/images/pdf2/100_vocabulary_primary.pdf
Thank you! I'll have to take some time to run through this stuff tomorrow, and look back through his testing to see if VMI has ever been tested. We don't have access to an OT, but have a friend who is a developmental optometrist I can ask.
12 hours ago, Lecka said:This is a sample of the kinds of comprehension questions that go with Fountas and Pinnell levels.
I would ask the teacher, why is he in level K? Is he in Level K because of how he reads out loud, or is he in Level K because of how he answers comprehension questions?
If it’s because of comprehension questions, what kind of questions does he miss?
You can also ask what the answers need to include to be counted as correct.
If the teacher says he does well on the comprehension questions for level K but it is the reading out loud, then that is good information also.
You can also ask, because I get confused by this, but if he is in level K, is that his independent reading level, and his instructional level is higher?
Whoever did his reading benchmark assessment can probably tell you more about this.
I believe that level K is his instructional level, because he was still bringing home level I/J books for practice. His teacher said that some kids are at a higher level for reading than they are for comprehension, but that he was at level K for both. I took that to mean that he's not moving forward from level K because of how he reads out loud, but can check with her to confirm both of these.
Thank you all!
Beth
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Wow, thank you for taking the time to respond and break all of that down! I really appreciate it!
1 hour ago, PeterPan said:I've seen stats on % of kids who get their ps ASD diagnosis confirmed after private re-evals, and the stats are pretty high. Do you have reason to think the diagnosis is *incorrect* or incomplete? Was he given an IEP and what was his disabling condition on that and what was the support level (1-3) that they assigned?
My son was diagnosed through the public healthcare system (Canada) just over 3 years ago. The ASD team told us up front that they only assess for ASD and wouldn't diagnose any other issues, so we walked away feeling like we had a few pieces of the puzzle in place and still had more to figure out. Now, my husband is fairly convinced that our son doesn't have ASD, and I'm on the fence. Several professionals who've worked with our son feel the same way and are supportive of pursuing a more complete assessment. We adopted him just before he turned 3, and we want to at least be able to discuss the attachment/trauma piece with a professional who will take the time to help us sort it out. I think we'll feel much more comfortable knowing that someone has assessed all of his needs, rather than just looking at the pieces that fit ASD (or ADHD, or LD, etc.).
He's had an IEP since kindergarten, originally for "social/emotional developmental delay". It was updated when he was diagnosed with ADHD and then ASD. We never got a support level, but the report from the ASD team specifies "without accompanying intellectual or language impairment".
1 hour ago, PeterPan said:What language testing has he had? You're talking language arts, but you need to know his support level (which implies affect on language honestly) and THOROUGH LANGUAGE TESTING. So right now, if you want to change your ability to help him pronto, the best thing you could do is get really thorough language testing. You probably don't need the 2nd round of psych testing. Are you going to a pdoc for medication? Then that would be worth it. But it doesn't matter at this point if it's called SLD or not, if it's called ODD or not. If he's having anxiety and you want medication or biomedical, you could pursue that.
The two things that will make the BIGGEST DIFFERENCE for you right now are:
-behavioral intervention with a BCBA or behaviorist, preferably one who is cool with homeschooling. Ours is a behaviorist, not BCBA, and she's great with homeschooling, services a lot of homeschoolers
-thorough language testing by SLP. You want expressive language, something like the SPELT, and narrative language, either dynamic or with the TNL. There's some other stuff they can do, sure. (TOPS, SLDT, blah blah)
Thank you for such thorough information on all this language stuff!
Of all the issues associated with ASD, I have to admit that I've always thought of language as the least of our worries. He was below average in some areas when he was tested at 4 but didn't qualify for speech therapy, then scored average or above average on the language testing at age 6 & 8 - the CELF, PPVT, EVT, and some oral language from the academic assessment. There are definitely times when he shuts down and isn't able to use language, but I've felt like he has age-appropriate language skills in most situations. I've never noticed repetitive speech patterns, but they did check off that box on his ASD evaluation, so I may be a poor judge.
Any tests that aren't part of a standard SLP assessment will likely be hard to track down in our area, and private SLPs tend to have long waiting lists. I can ask the elementary school SLP whether there's anything she can do to assess his expressive and narrative language skills or if she has any of the tools you mentioned. That would definitely be our fastest route because he's still technically a student there.
And just now, I've found a private SLP about 2.5 hours away who "specializes in reading, writing and spelling difficulties/disorders and is an Associate with the Academy of Orton-Gillingham Practitioners and Educators and a Certified Dyslexia Practitioner with the International Dyslexia Association"! So I'll reach out to her as well to see when she's next available. Might as well get on a waiting list!
I have actually looked at Barton and thought about giving him the screening, but then thought that if he had dyslexia the educational psychologist would have caught it last year? I do have the report here and can see if one of the SLPs is able to advise me on that. Or I can do the screening because that will be faster. 😊
3 hours ago, PeterPan said:This is really good! Sometimes you just have to try something and see what works and what doesn't. Everybody has their gig and what they think will fit. There are your ASD1 kids who seemingly can use almost anything, don't have as much affect on language. You may be able to use Abeka, anything you want. With my ds, ASD2 and diagnosed language disability (among other things, haha), he has a long IEP and gets a lot of customization. I use workbooks that I buy from Evan Moor, Teacher Created Materials, etc. I go through them and find the exact things.
I tend not to do isolated LA pages, because the instruction doesn't typically fit my ds. Once I've taught the skill another way, then I come in with workbooks to practice that skill. My ds enjoys science, so right now I have him doing several science workbooks from Evan Moor and Teacher Created. He's also doing geography and social studies workbooks from them. They're all Common Core correlated materials, and they really work that language to make sure he can understand and THINK.
Okay, this is great and a bit of a relief to hear. I was looking at some of those workbooks, and might even have them in my shopping cart. We've completed the local Grade 4 social studies curriculum, so I'm definitely going to go ahead and get the geography book, and might try a few others. He likes worksheets as long as they don't have too much writing, so I think we have a few options there.
6 hours ago, PeterPan said:What happens if you scribe? And does his engagement with the material make a difference? A lot of ps writing is open-ended and a nightmare. You might have more success with narration or an approach with more structure like IEW, the progymnasta series from CAP, Writing Tales, whatever. If he has narrative language deficits, you'll back up further. So I guess get your testing and see what the data says.
The only time I've scribed for him is on comprehension homework sheets that require 1-2 sentence responses, and he's done great with those. For writing at school, they've been trying to get him to use a voice-to-text app without any success. I think it's the open-ended nightmare that you described - he's faced with a completely blank page, or screen, he just shuts down. He did more writing last year because someone would scribe for him and prompt him for one idea or sentence at a time. He definitely does better with more direction, and being asked to come up with his own topic or to write about something he likes just stresses him out.
5 hours ago, PeterPan said:You have other kids you're teaching?
Thankfully, no! I just left my job in December to be home with him, and he's plenty of work on his own. 😂 My other school-aged kids are in public school, and the youngest starts in September.
Thanks again!
Beth
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Hello! I hope this is the best place to post. I’ve been reading these boards for the last few weeks and am so impressed by the level of knowledge and experience shared here.
My son is in 9 years old and in 4th grade, but is behind where he should be in most subjects. He has ADHD and has also been diagnosed with ASD. We’re seeking a second opinion on the ASD diagnosis, along with a full evaluation for other behavioural and learning disabilities, but can’t get in until October. He was evaluated through the school system last year and wasn’t diagnosed with any learning disabilities.
He has been in public school up until now, but has been going for partial days since December, taking English language arts and math at school and everything else at home. As of this week, I’m officially homeschooling full time.
I’ve been doing some extra math with him at home (Math-U-See), which has been going well so I plan to continue with that. Language arts is where I’m really at a loss and could use some direction. I’ve been afraid of doing it “wrong” or messing up what he’s been learning at school. We haven’t done anything at home with him except what his teachers have sent home (reading books at his level and some comprehension worksheets) and reading to him. He loves being read to, his listening comprehension is great, and he never has any trouble answering comprehension questions about what he reads. His actual reading doesn’t seem to have improved this year and his teacher’s evaluation says his reading is at Level K, which is 2nd grade level. He’s done very little writing because he is so resistant at school. I don’t believe he’s worked on much spelling or grammar at school, and we haven’t done any at home.
I’ve spent some time reading through language arts-related threads, but I have to admit that most here on the Learning Challenges board have gone way over my head. From some of the other threads, it seems like most people use multiple programs to cover the different aspects of language arts? I’m having trouble figuring out what that should look like for my son and which programs would be best for him, so could really use some help.
Reading/phonics is definitely going to be our major focus, but there are so many programs to choose from – I’m not sure whether to be looking at the $$$ special needs reading programs, ones that are recommended for kids with learning disabilities, etc. Can you recommend what type of program would be best or a specific program to start with?
In terms of the other areas of language arts, what should we focus on? I’m not requiring him to read or write in other subjects, so I would like for us to work up to about an hour of language arts per day. He works hard and can focus when he’s set up for success, so I do expect that he’ll make more progress at home than he has at school, I’m just really not sure where to focus our energy. For example, should I choose a writing program and scribe for him so he can learn how to compose paragraphs? Or is that something we wait on until he can write independently?
I really appreciate any advice or resources you can share about what language arts should look like, and any specific program recommendations are very welcome.
Thank you!
Beth
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It's like there's this constant fight in the system where they keep wanting to revert back to whole language, making it sound like there's some huge dichotomy between OG and reading for meaning. So they end up focusing on meaning so much and not being strong enough on the explicit side.
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My younger sister, who has been self-quarantining in our basement apartment since she arrived from Toronto last week, tested positive yesterday. Her symptoms have been fatigue, brain fog, aches and pains, diarrhea, and loss of taste/smell. No fever, no cough, no breathing issues. She's 25, has no underlying health issues, and is starting to feel better already. My brother has been quarantining with her and hasn't had any symptoms, but will be tested tomorrow per our local testing guidelines.