I am so sorry this happened to you! Please take care of yourself and follow orders, rest when not doing PT.

It may have been Scott Botkin. He was big into the 200 year plan and prayed over Anna Sofia and Elizabeth's ovaries when they were born. No joke. He talked about that at conventions. SO GROSS! Anyway, I do find it just kind of hilarious how his 200 year plan is working out. If memory serves, the Botkin girls are 30 and 32/33, unmarried, so those ovaries are not being put to use creating younglings for his 200 year plan. Of the three sons, one has left the ATI/VF nest, and he and his wife are leading a very different life, limiting their family size. Not sure how he is getting to his 200 descendents in record time with just two kids involved!

Very true. Men are feeling the pressure and in so many parts of the country, single income home can mean poverty and especially with a large family. Not everyone has the privilege of being born in low COL and remain there. Plus if everyone in high COL moved to low COL, low COL would not be low for long. So the economics of the situation just do not add up as a prescribed, you must do this in order to be a righteous family, lifestyle for all nor does it take into consideration illness, injury, or death of the breadwinner. In the religion, the father, eldest brother, or other eldest male family member is supposed to take the daughter and her kids back and provide for them, but if dad is near retirement, that isn't tenable, and if brother has 8 kids and sis moves in with 9, what are the chances he can provide for all of them alone without a tv. show of his own? And this why so much hawking of dubious products and pyramid schemes is also prevalent among the women folk because they have to find ways to try to add to family income regardless of what the religion says. Boys grow up, see the reality, and if dad isn't wealthy and able to support them, are probably inclined to marry outside the sect seeking out a mate who more of a partner than a total dependent even if she is a SAHM while the kids are young. They want someone who is willing to work for pay if needed, and unafraid of entering the world to do so.

Great quote! Very insightful.

LOL, he needs to speak English please!!! 😂

Wow! Well, I am glad you went in for medical advice. That is important! I hope you won't react so hard in the future to other vaccines. My arm is a terror over tetanus so I absolutely hate and despise those boosters. Ugh. I hope you get better very soon!

I had vaccine arm. I really react, always do...sometimes have pain for three weeks and significantly decreased range of motion for up to three weeks just from tetanus boosters. I had Moderna and got a terrible self, radiating pain, couldn't use my arm, and had fire like sensations in that arm for about 22 days, and then it wad done. I am fighting through that this time again, second shot was 18 days ago. I am almost back to normal. I did not relish going back for the 2nd shot, but gritted my teeth and did it. Our young adult sons all get vaccinated this week, and then everyone in our extended family whom we would like to spend time have been vaccinated except our two little grandsons. But all of their grown up relatives being vaxed protects them, and allows us to camp together and have other excursions without worry. So I am glad I did it. Plus my mother in law was just diagnosed with another serious condition. At this point, only vaccinated individuals will be allowed in her home or our home in order to protect her as we suspect her immunity from her JnJ may be a bit low due to her health issues. I am sorry you have this. I can totally sympathize.

Thank you! This. Seriously, this. It is yet another conspiracy theory, millions of college students with the intent to pull a nationwide fast one on the 3500+ colleges and tech schools of America. Mostly, what they will do, is go get vaccinated because they want to continue their programs, and especially do not want to be saddled with student loans and no certifications, licenses, or degrees to show for it. I already know one 19 year old in town who said she got vaccinated because her school is going to require it. She was reluctant, and her mother was insanely against it, but she wasn't going to risk loss of credits in a transfer and really likes her college.

Good point about the dones. 3 of my 4 adult children are dones. They are skeptical that anything could woo them back to organized Christianity. I do think that if more dones were more easily identified, it might just maybe give the American church a wake up call just to see how many they have alienated. But then again, they might just circle the wagons, claim the no true Scotsman, and keep right on chugging along in their mindsets.

They don't really "meet" them in the traditional sense. While boys may approach a father - not the girl - about courtship/betrothal and the father considers whether or not he will allow it, often it is the father finding the mates for their daughters, and it is practically a done deal before she finds out her father has decided who will court her. Apart from an egregious wrong, the girls are supposed to acquiesce to marry the ones their fathers picked. So courtship even is a bit of a misnomer because it is more of a blend of courtship with arranged marriage. And it should be noted that Anna Duggar admitted that JB told her dad about Josh's "indiscretions" prior to their courtship, and this was not a show stopper for the Killers, and it appears that it was a full disclosure though I am sure JB thought of ways to make it sound not as bad as it was. Still, they basically betrothed her to him. Pretty darn sick and twisted! ATI style churches do not have youth groups, and keep the young people gender segregated so there is virtually no contact, and what little may occur is heavily chaperoned. One of the side effects of this is that the boys pretty much have full agency so if they don't want to court, they do not have to, and because they are groomed for breast winning, work in some capacity outside the home or go to trade school or whatever which gives them the opportunity to see some of the world. The outcome has been a lot of fundie daughters not getting married. JB has been able to find mates, as well as the Bates, for their kids because they sold their lives to TLC, and unfortunately have a fan base in ATI and family followers. But one thing that has brought up by folks that have known of similar families and churches, like Boerne Christian Fellowship, and Christchurch Moscow, Idaho, is that an awful lot of SAHD are not finding husbands, and weddings among the strictest courtship/arranged marriage families are few. I guess at some point they are going to have to start preaching that the boys have to be SAHB and force arranged marriages on them. That said, it is hard to keep the younger generation. Though the Duggar have had a lot of buy in from their own kids - money and control of money by JB - many families just don't manage it for consecutive generations. Kellers have 3 that have left the fold, Doug Phillips adult kids are pretty much doing their own thing, neither of Jeff Botkin's daughters married and since they are in their thirties and past prime fertility age, my guess is they never will and one of his three sons has rejected the family religion, Doug P's poster boy, Peter Bradrick is divorced, Josh Harris and wife are divorced, and on and on it goes. So recruitment to the religion has to stay strong which is just so ironic because the whole thing is based on the dominionist idea of brainwashing subsequent generations into the religion and creating a theocratic country by out breeding the heathens and taking over, not by "recruitment and conversion". If it weren't connected to so much disgusting abuse, if would be a kind of fascinating anthropological study.

I say goo da, and well, it's a gooda cheese! 😁

I raised a heathen, and I am quite proud of it! I have two nieces, one is an ADN and one is an EKG tech, IV tech, and some other certifications that I can't remember who is now the office manager a cardiology clinic. I am proud of them too! I have a nephew in the N.G., and well, he has done some rescue stuff and body parts have been seen. Surprisingly 😁, still a non perverted person! 😉 I seriously wish these extreme religious groups would take a moment to think rationally.

We have an exterior wood boiler and burn propane when we will be gone. For years I had these wonderful teen boys to stock wood, split it, etc. and then they all had the nerve to grow up! Sheesh. So now I am taking care of it when dh is gone. Splitting though is just not my game. I don't seem to possess the upper body strength to really get that axe swinging well enough to do the job other than using the hatchet to split small pieces for kindling, and while I can do it, I am slow at that compared to my sons and husband. But, I am learning. This will most definitely not be our retirement house. I can see how physically difficult this will be in our later years, and burning exclusively propane for this place is quite expensive.

Around here the ATI folks preach against their own getting any medical training, both male and female, so they can remain righteous and not encounter these situations. Then of course when the need arises, want their medics, doctors, nurses, physical therapists, you name it. So I think it is a lot like other ridiculous rather closed religious communities...let the heathen do the dirty work and we will take advantage of it, but darn it all, we are the more righteous folks because we don't let our young participate in those careers. Neener neener! I have seen that with the local fundie nutter church. They are 100% against this level of education or participation in the world for their own, but then use EMS, hospitals, you name it all the live long day hoping the unrighteous have studied long and hard to save their lives. The pastor of the one church won't let his eldest daughter study math or science beyond 9th grade so she can be the eternal stay at home daughter and tells everyone else not to let their sons and daughters go to college, but then his profoundly developmentally delayed 7 year old attends developmental preschool and has hours of therapy a day paid for by the evil gubmint and provided by people with master's degrees in their subject material while his wife births their babies at the hospital, and when one of their kids broke her leg - nasty compound fracture - called 911 and male medics tended her. So.....your basic gigantic hypocrisy.

I am so sorry for your loss.

That is part of it, but it has morphed and grown until not only do some churches claim a once Christian was never a Christian due to something they have done, now it has become whole groups of people who claim to be Christian can't be Christian because a-z, with claims of " we have the only real truth" becoming a popular mantra. So it has grown and gotten worse to the point that in some Christian groups,.no one outside that group could possibly be a Christian. We are seeing this war locally as well as regionally and from what acquaintances in other parts of the country have posted online and in personal communication, it seems to be an exploding problem all over. This past year seems to be the worst with claims that one could not possibly be "saved" if one did not vote for candidate X or support legislation Y or yada yada to the point that in some churches around our side of the state, people were thrown out of membership in mainstream as well as smaller church groups for being vocal against certain policies or politicians as well as for not being willing to sign extremist statements such as "I believe America should be a theocracy" or " I believe god hates all LGBTQ persons" or .....fill in the blanks, and then these statements were followed up with "you are not a true Christian unless you sign these statements". My mother in law was just excommunicated from a Wesleyan denomination church for this, and while the denomination leadership is not happy about the church engaging in this practice, they also will not intervene which says a lot about how far this is going. In the Methodist church, we have traditionalist churches calling out the progressive churches and claiming that anyone who attends a progressive church is not a true Christian. That denomination will split over the issue of homosexual ordination and gay marriage in the coming year, though this has been an issue with them since the 70's. The difference is that at one time, in general, churches sought to be more reconciliation - agree to disagree in love - and now it is just vicious name calling on both sides, and has even descended into family against family in some places and again " not a real Christian" statements being used. None of this bodes well for the religion as outsiders watch it implode, and I don't just mean Methodism, but across the Christian spectrum. I do think the U.S. could end up a largely atheist and agnostic country much like France. The younger generations want nothing to do with this mess.

That is so sad. Orthodoxy, prior to my total break with Christianity, was the last faith system I considered, and much was appealing for sure. That is very disturbing. However, I correspond a bit with an Orthodox woman, and she has been expressing these same concerns as are many of her Orthodox friends. It seems to be a really insidious, seeping wound spreading from its origins to the appendages.

I wish you and your dad all the best. One thing we did for our family members was decorate their rooms before they arrived and made sure favorite items were there so it would be cheery and comfy. This might not be easy during Covid, but maybe ask about it. We just wanted to do everything we could to lift spirits and remind them that home was the goal so keep that chin up!

I have four experiences to share, but no specific knowledge of the industry. When my grandmother needed PT after a stroke, she went to rehab only facility, and she got great care. It was very good, and that was all that was done there so everyone was specialized in assisting with recovery, gaining strength, OT, and PT right down to the CNA's. I loved how absolutely dedicated everyone was to each patient's recovery and common goals. It was a wonderful, cheerful place and I am sure it contributed to her working so hard to be able to come home. When my mom needed PT after surgery on her ankle - two different times - she actually went to a smaller, county hospital with a swing bed. The outpatient physical therapy clinic was across the driveway, and staff was sent to her. I felt it was decent. But when the PT or OT was not on site, there wasn't such a singular drive for success or additional help with specific tasks per second, just general care. Her nursing staff was wonderful, yet not specialized, and it kind of showed. It was her choice. The surgical hospital offered to send her to the really good rehab that grandma had gone to, but she turned it down because it was 25 minutes away from home instead of 10 minutes and she thought my brother and I would not visit her because of the distance difference which was ludicrous, but no budging her no matter what we said. To be honest, I do think she would have come along further at the other facility. My brother then had a stroke, went to the good rehab only and they sis wonders with him. Dh's grandma had a stroke and went to a nursing home that supposedly was also a rehab. Ha ha. What a joke. If someone spent even five minutes with her on a few strength exercises, I would eat my hat. This was followed later by uncle needing PT after an injury and surgery to fix. He was sent to a different nursing home that was supposedly a rehab, and yet again, a total joke.

The no true Scotsman theory of salvation is that one particular very specific Christian theology is the only right one and anyone who believes something different cannot possibly be saved. So some groups have said Catholics can't be Christians, Calvinism vs. Armenian, etc. I myself, back in Christian days, was told by folks at the Reformed Church that I was not saved and could never be saved because I was part of the Methodist tradition. And on and on, down to whole denominations with even similar theology on paper, but with differing practices or implementation calling the others unsaved.I watched a dear Moravian woman being told by an IFB person that she could not be saved because x,y,z, and I piped up to say that the most Jesus like person I could see in the room was actually the Moravian lady. Some charismatic have said those who do not speak in tongues cannot be saved because they do not exhibit the Spirit, and on and on, even a few really fundamentalist Catholics saying that Orthodox believers are not true believers because of icons or whatever. The worst I know of locally was a Nazarene pastor that claimed absolutely no one but people who attended a Nazarene church could go to heaven. So it like that argument about what percentage of Scottish blood, or Scottish tradition, or Scottish whatever is required to call oneself a Scot. It is a lot of "othering".

That is so disheartening and scary.

Well, I left Christianity prior to the pandemic. But, people whom we still considered friends have been fervently extremist in this past year, and it is quite disconcerting. We also will not be able to resume any kind of relationship with them because their behavior, name calling, is over the top. I do think for many, they really do a lot of "eyes on the preacher" thinking instead of cultivating individual discernment. The charismatic leader thing is problematic as well as the "no true Scotsman" theory of salvation which leads to people believing they have the corner on the market of who is and is not a Christian. Add confirmation bias onto it as the more extreme churches allow no dissent or at least really seek to marginalize dissenters, and you have this perfect storm of being vulnerable to radical, wild ideas not rooted in real evidence nor in mainstream interpretation of their scriptures. And for what it is worth, my husband is still a Christian, a progressive one but not particularly far left of center, and this is what he thinks has happened.

Then maybe this is too triggering for you to read. I am sorry if it is, but the discussion is actually quite worthy since these cults still exist and keep promulgating their ideas. As for the Duggars, had JimBob and Michelle not wanted to live a life of scrutiny in the public eye, they should not have sold out their family's privacy to TLC. If the elder Duggar victims had wanted privacy, they could have chosen again not to be on t.v. in the sequel show which came out after the sex abuse was brought to light. They chose to keep airing their private lives for profit. It is worth discussing all of this because so much sex abuse occurs in patriarchal systems and is covered up. Abuse can happen anywhere, but it seems to follow very heavily in patriarchal religious systems that subjugate the rights of women and children, and in fact extreme forms of the courtship model are implicated in this because they appear to revolve around other very damaging beliefs. It is also worth noting that this is not a Christian or evangelical discussion forum so an appeal to what god would find pleasing is kind of lost on some folks, and yet others would also say this is very pleasing o their deity because religious systems that create abuse victims are NOT pleasing to god. Gently, I have no desire to silence you. But as a survivor of the ATI religion, I will also not be quieted based on an appeal to what pleases god or what might be embarrassing to others who follow such beliefs. Silence is what gets us to a world where a brother can prey on four sisters and a babysitter, receive no legal punishment or rehabilitation much less appropriate therapy, the victims do not get trauma therapy, it gets swept under the rug until that same pervert ends up on Ashley Madison seeking out affairs and prostitutes, again is not placed in a proper program, and is now charged with heinous child sex abuse crimes in the form of videos of child torture that have made seasoned police officers vomit. While painful, silence is not the way forward if we want to understand, remediate, and change our culture. Any cults' hands in the matter are fair game, and as part of the offshoot, examining the extreme side of the courtship model is part and parcel of that. If this really upsets you, please do not read in this thread or any of the others of similar topic. We have a lot to discuss on the forum and not all of it is by any means of this nature. You will find fellowship and support in a variety of other threads.

You should read the entire thread. This is part of a greater discussion of how extremist fundamentalist beliefs affect people within the context of the hiding of a predator, a particularly twisted predator, within a fundamentalist cult. You may not unlike it, but the Duggar religion and lifestyle does meet the criteria of a cult, and they did hide their son out and sweep his perversions under the rug. In this cult, which has been referenced over and over specifically in this thread along with two other cults, the approach to courtship puts the young females in damaging positions. If it does not apply to you, then great. Some of us are survivors of this crap and will not be silenced. Interesting that as a newbie, your first thought was to admonish or attempt to shame a discussion board.

And a tragedy for his wife too. But the fact that he has issued some pretty heartfelt apologies for what he preached to parents throughput the years, not just the book which was early on, it makes me think he very much regrets most of his beliefs. I don't know how much of that is due to his dad, and how much is due to his own choices.