And charges cannot be brought, those would be state charges not federal, because at the time of the offenders the statute of limitations was short and had expired by the time it all came out. There is no way to get him on criminal charges. But, the state can go after him when the feds are done on the CSA materials. And the girls can go after him in civil court for damages because he confessed and so did his parents. Civil court only requires a preponderance of evidence not beyond reasonable doubt so they are easier cases to prove. I would imagine they won't go after Josh for money because of Anna and the kids. I however think in the long run they should go after Josh, JB, and IBLP and bankrupt them. Anna having to go to school and get a job, placing the kids in school is actually in those children's best interests. JB being bankrupt and no longer having any platform on which to preach his rubbish is good. The younger siblings not having a gob of money to live off as young adults and instead having to go for post homeschool education and training to get jobs that are not ont he family dole is good. Forcing these sibs to see something beyond the Duggar compound and daddy control, and IBLP control is good. And I think the case against IBLP would be pretty good. Some of us have copies of their counseling materials in which they blame victims for the abuse, make them thank god for the abuse because it "draws them closer to god", and forces them to thank their abusers for the abuse. No.joke. and this was all done to them as minors. I am pretty sure the average jury sitting on that case is going to go 😯😯😯😠😠😠😠😠. Oh Billy Boy Gothard is worth tens of millions. I feat they will not have the courage to do it. But, I sure dream of the day when IBLP is extinct!

I am so sorry!!!

Not at this time. We have not had an update on the judge's ruling. And whether or not it can be used hinges a lot on IF the defense wants to use witnesses to paint a picture of "good Christian character". That opens it up for the prosecutor to then bring anti-character witnesses. Many states do not allow past crimes or allegations of past crimes to be used against a defendent. But, federal law rule 414 does allow it if the defense there. I am not a lawyer and do not play one on t.v. However, I have been doing some digging, and it seems that likely the defense attempting to have Bobbye Holt's testimony deemed clergy privilege was an attempt to have damning character testimony barred from the trial so they could try to paint a " good boy who would never think of doing this bad thing" image of Josh. If the ruling goes against them, I would imagine they will not open the character debate. However, again, I have no experience with this. When my own father was on trial for something bad - he was hallucinating at the time due to brain Hypoxia and Michigan no longer allows a temporary insanity plea - his defense lawyer did bring character witnesses in to try to reduce the chances of a stiff sentence from the judge. Laughably, the D.A. tried like hell to find people who would testify that my otherwise law abiding, upstanding, small business owner in the community who was profoundly generous and helpful, was a terrible person. He couldn't find a single human to do it. So that was interesting to watch. I thought he would chew his own face off because the defense had so many character witnesses that the trial would have gone on for days if the judge didn't rein it in. And it did help, the judge said he was taking into account that the medical circumstances made it impossible for my dad to distinguish reality from fiction, that the character witnesses clearly painted the picture of a person who would never have done such a thing if his collapsed lung had been properly treated (medical malpractice and that suit is still pending six years later, sigh....), and that he would sentence him to the bare minimum allowed by law since there is no not-guilty by reason of temporary insanity plea in this state. He got five years probation and died 9 months later at home on hospice. The representative of our district then used his position, dad's military service and exemplary record, etc. etc. and got the conviction expunged. That was after he died, but it made my mom and brother feel better. For other reasons, I did not have a dog in that fight and did not care about expunging the record. So that is really all I know about the whole character witness thing.

Sorry. I really do not know much about the group.

I thought for those of you following this, it would be nice to have a fresh thread so you don't have to scroll so far for the day's updates. One of the students who had been in serious condition was downgraded to critical, and that breaks my heart. I cannot imagine being the parents and receiving that news. Investigators report the shooter's parents are non-cooperative. Sigh. Dad bought the stupid gun at a Black Friday sale - happy Christmas to the Oxford Community 😠😠😠😠😠 - and a few days later, bam. So much for locking up his gun in such a way his kid couldn't use it. Students escaped through windows, some grabbed scissors to use in self defense. A group of survivors made it almost to Meijer which is 1.5 miles from the school, and then felt guilty about leaving their fellow students and thought about going back. That just rips me apart. Our children should not have to face this. That is like being in a war zone! "Do I save myself and my buddy, or do I go back for the fallen?" These aren't trained marines here. They are kids. I weep. I really hope seasoned trauma counselors are being provided to all of the students, faculty, and staff.

Not wrong!!! 😂

I am following a reddit reporter who is using his own money to attend the trial and report. He is pretty nuts and bolts, takes good notes, and his facts from day 1 have been verified by other news reports from mainstream outlets as well as the release of court documents. He sits in the audio only room for the general public. The courtroom is not huge, and is pretty much reserved for journalists with press passes, family of the accused, etc. He goes by J is for jail. Don't read the comments. It doesn't bring anything to the table. And when he does his daily update, I will inner a link only, and try to do some sort of summary for those who don't want to read a blow by blow. TRIGGER WARNING!!!!!! In that sense, I am glad for his sake that he is only hearing it, and not in view of the evidence. Once the images and video, the law enforcement descriptions start being presented, this becomes a very traumatizing case for everyone. I can't imagine being on the jury. A local acquaintance who works for CPS says to expect breaks for the jurors because many will break down, some may feel like they are going to faint, and some may vomit. She is aware of the video, and though has never seen it, has herself thrown up from an investigative report on it, and she says she has seen seasoned LEO's with years of experience break down and cry over this particular video. I hope they only have to play enough to just verify to the jury that it is in fact CSAM, and then can stop it and go with a written only report which is bad enough! I will try to keep the really bad stuff to a minimum. But I don't think it is possible to follow this trial and NOT read stuff that is going to be really upsettting. ETA: midday break update below, link only, very brief description. I didn't want to have to leave a trigger warning for that post so please visit the link if you want more details.

Also, the national media, not known for geographic fluency, describes the community as "just north of Detroit" like it Warren, MI or something, it is in fact NOT. Oxford is 42 miles north of the upper boundary of Detroit. I am 55 miles in some direction from Oxford, but am not at this time keen on disclosing my exact location. So don't think of the community of Oxford as being particularly big city like or "in the city" or of similar culture to a big suburb of Detroit like Rochester Hills, Gross Pointe, or Pontiac.

Sigh. What a thing to buy on a Christmas sale.

My hope is that the case is so slam dunk that Judge Brooks gets really p.o.ed with Josh and gives him the maximum, and the maximum fines as well. $500,000.00 of JBobs TLC money would be an assist with the cost of trying him when he was too stupid to take the plea deal. I think, if memory serves, the absolute max on each count is 20 years. So if Brooks stacked them and required them to be served consecutively and not concurrently, he would be away for 34 years because federal crimes require serving 85% of the sentence before being eligible for parole. And none of that stops Arkansas from going after him because the crimes were federal, but also committed in the state. So if the local D.A. is not satisfied with the sentence given or if Josh got off on a technicality, the state can go after him. Usually the state doesn't bother if the perp is convicted on the federal charges and gets a hefty sentence, but they have been known to do it if the federal case bombs out. The other thing is that Jill should get her sisters together and go after JB and Josh in civil court. Like the O.J. case where he got off on the criminal charges, he lost big in the civil case because civil suits only require a preponderance of the evidence, not beyond reasonable doubt. Josh's admissions in public along with JB and Michelle's Megan Kelly interview, and calling Bobbye Holt to the stand would be enough to bankrupt JB's empire. Josh is the perp, but he was a minor and the parents truly did nothing to protect their girls from him and punished them with an abusive camp for being victims. He put them on t.v. and destroyed their privacy while still minors in order to make money on reality t.v., something they could not consent to as minors, and then kept the money they earned forcing Jill to have to sue him for it.

Another update: Two more victims are in critical condition, one in serious condition, and the others stable and recovering from their wounds. One of the students in critical condition is on a vent. The teacher has been discharged. The shooter is at a juvenile facility and on suicide watch. The 9mm handgun was his father's legally owned gun. So far, no arrest of the father. I hope this community metaphorically hangs the prosecutor if he does not go after the dad. Can't keep your gun out of the hands of your kid? Suffer the consequences along with your child. I am sooooooo done with the "responsible gun owners" argument. Just don't start with me. I am raw today.

At this time, I recommend a lemon drop martini and a slice of cheesecake. But rum and rum cake works well too. Maybe have the drink and cake in the bathtub while you soak and unwind. Be sure to keep track of your bingo card, and have a few weeks of pretending mamma dear doesn't exist.

It should be noted that both Vision Forum/Boerne Christian Assembly, and Christchurch of Doug Wilson/Moscow Idaho fame are also sex cults that predicate their family values on abusing women, grooming females and children to be victims, and defend rape and pedophilia or at least their leadership does. So IBLP is NOT the only sex cult within extreme fundamentalism.

It is a sex cult. If you follow the life of Gothard and his henchmen, you see a BIG common thread in it. Women and girls groomed to be victims, and the men are deviants. But they use the Bible as a base for it in a way that is difficult to just say "they aren't christians". That is very uncomfortable for more mainstream protestants because it forces a lot of discussion of what is doctrine, who gets to decide, how is the Bible interpreted, who should be interpreting matters of personal conscience vs. collective application, and well a host of not easy topics that no one can agree upon except at this point, except for FLDS (another sex cult) just about everyone agrees that IBLP and its followers are pretty screwed up and not to fond of following anything Jesus says. Whether or not they are christians is not anything I care about. I don't have a dog in that fight anymore. Maybe my big beef is " what is human, and do we have to call Josh and Jbob humans????" I would prefer they were not members of my species!

Yes. That is my understanding as well. Federal D.A.'s appear to be the rockstars of the lawyer world, and they take a long time to build their cases so that they have a high conviction rate. It was two years from the raid on the car dealership until the arrest. So I would imagine they have a very damning case.

This is very true. I don't think it will work. iBLP and the church itself have "women can't be in leadership" statements on their websites. She isn't clergy, and Judge Brooks seems to be logical and rational, down to earth. The question is how he interprets rule 414 which does allow for allegations of past acts to be admissible if the defense makes character statements. So essentially where is the threshold at which the prosecution can rebut the defense on the basis of them trying to paint Josh as a good person. So depending on where he falls with this, depends on how useful Bobbye and Jill will be. Dwain Swanson was listed as a witness for the prosecution back in mid-November. No one knows why. He is Lauren's dad, and Josiah's father in law. Josh tried to throw Josiah under the bus by pointing fingers at him as well as one of the other brothers. Possible alibi for Josiah I'd the defense tries to drive the bus over him? Not sure. Arkansas clergy privilege law, which is pretty broadly worded, doesn't apply because this is a federal case. The federal statute seems to be stricter so I do not think that helps the defense. But who knows. Strange nonsensical things happen all the time in our justice system.

Get the abx, and "we think it was only there" statements are pretty well guesses. They don't have that down to a great accuracy. 28 days. Watch the diet, do not take with high calcium foods which can inhibit absorption. Prioritize rest, probiotics to help with the abx if it bothers him. Just smack it down before there is any chance of symptoms beginning.

Now that is awesome sauce!!!!

Some places do rent them, but not a lot. People get hurt on those more than skiing because with rentals you are often getting someone driving who has zero experience. They are super expensive machines, and they ruin ski and snowshoeing trails so resorts do not like them that much since drivers often are not careful to stay on designated paths. Now if one can figure out how to get elder on and off of a tube, then they could pull said person along fairly easily on the snow. Some ski resorts have tuning hills so renting a tube might be possible. But, getting someone on and off so low to the ground is hard on the care river's back. They don't normally come with sidecars. Skis mounted to a wheelchair would make things easier. I have never seen it. But it is something I am sure my very creative husband probably considered at one point!

You nailed it. Hand wringing and prayers. That's it. And I am with you. A 15 year old cannot buy a semiautomatic hand gun. Therefore, it was procured at home which means it wasn't in a gun safe with a secret code, and did not have fingerprint trigger locks, and ammo was stored where said minor knew to find it, or some adult helped the minor get it illegally. So. Where are the adults who are going down for this? Crickets? Yes, you heard crickets. Gun nutters have no intention of holding each other accountable nor allowing the big, bad gubmint to do it either. There is no death toll that will sway them, ever. What I would like is for the owners of semiautomatic/automatic weapons who allow minors to have access to them to be tried on t.v. I would like the big bad gubmint to try them and buy the 8-9pm EST time slot on all the major networks and try some of these parents for all to see. And I would like them to be sentenced to some hell hole and have the nation watch them being lead off to be fitted for their orange jumpsuits, and I would be okay with all the drug offenders for possession and intent to distribute to be let out early so the money saved can be used to fund the trial on primetime. Yes, I am having a very bad day.

When our son was recovering from the car accident, we used a wheelchair and apart from medical outings, limited trips to places we knew had good ramps and kept ramps and sidewalks clear. One such place was Alma College. We took in some plays and concerts there because we could drive up to the curb, get him and the chair out, and one of us roll him in while the other parked. This avoided rolling through any part of the parking lot that was slushy. My guess is if it is a decent resort they do a good job with snow and ice removal. I would be tempted to keep a lot of $10 bills in hand, and then any employee who helps get your elder and wheelchair in and out loaded, etc. gets a nice tip. I used to tip $10 at Beaumont because the valet parking attendants always unloaded my mom's wheelchair, helped me get her into it, and then took her inside if it was nice out. I really appreciated that! So check and see if the resort has valet parking. It may well be worth the fee and tips.

One last update of the day. The jury had been seated, 12 jurors and 4 alternate jurors. A small group of potential jurors did indicate that they were victims of CSA. Judge Brooks took them to his chambers for a private talk, no lawyers, no idea if a clerk or bailiff was present. So far, no journalist has reported one more word on that or whom may or may not have been dismissed. I am glad and hope it remains that way. Let's be protecting as many people as possible. 28 potential jurors indicated that they had watched the show. When asked for anyone to stand who felt they could not be impartial due to having watched the show or hearing about them on social media, no one stood. The judge then gave the pool a frank, but apparently very careful, concerned run down of what they can expect to see and hear in a case like this. He did not pull any punches, and yet, according to a court reporter, he seemed to care about the fact that these poor folks have to witness this freaking awful crud. He then asked if anyone felt that they would not be able to be a juror. No one stood. I am VERY impressed with that pool of adults! I wish we did more for jurors. These people should be given tax payer funded counseling afterward and a trip to Hawaii all expenses paid. There is no word yet on the evidentiary ruling concerning the testimony of Bobbye Holt. Since the judge said the trial begins tomorrow, my guess is that he can give his ruling to counsel in the morning before the jury is seated by the baliff. But, I am not a lawyer and do not play one on T.V. I am allowing myself to speculate on that.

Update #3. Three are dead. Eight were injured of those eight, two are in surgery, and the others are stable with more minor gunshot wounds. 15-20 shots were fire, and the suspect was apprehended without incident, and is 15 years old. The three fatalities range in age from 14-17. A comment on local news from a parent claiming to have a child in that school is that her son asked to stay home from this morning because there was a rumor on social media that there would be a school shooting. This has not been verified by law enforcement. Governor Whitmer spoke and mentioned that this is an American problem that needs action (no joke) but that at the moment her focus or whatever is to get resources to the community. And yes, okay...but isn't that always the excuse for not doing anything now???? We have to focus on the immediate tragedy???? And then promptly not do anything. I mean, I get it. Her hands are totally tied in this state. The male misogynist, extreme guns rights advocates control the legislature. So anything she would try would be smacked down with prejudice. But I am really tired of this particular excuse.

It should also be noted that on the sub reddit forum, the person posting updates who is attending the trial, posted 22 minutes ago that the jury pool had not yet been given lunch. That would be 4:06 pm CST if Arkansas is CST. I am not sure if Fayetteville is CST or Rocky. Anyone know? Even if it was 3:06, these folks reported to the courthouse by 9am, 8 am if memory serves. The reporter finally left to get lunch. And they wonder why absolutely everyone dreads a jury summons! Well no joke. There has been only one, 20 minute potty/water break. Uhm. Hungry, dehydrated, low blood sugar, needing to pee. Have we not learned anything about human behavior, emotions, concentration and focus lo these many years? Judge Brooks, this is not acceptable! I hope it turns out that some court officer took a Subway order for everyone, dismissed them individually for the bathroom, and they just kind of "working lunched" their way through the day. It isn't right, but better.

Yes, and that JB after saying he doesn't remember what his son said, then said he remembered that whatever it is he can't remember was definitely said a confessional, protected way. 😯🙄 I mean, if I were to just describe that statement alone in non legal terms, I would say "dry that out and you can fertilize the lawn with it." And of course what Gardenmom says about narcissism and the golden child is 100% true here. And as to the fell asleep? This I can believe. IBLP really conditions men to believe that no matter what a woman brings up and or thinks about or expresses is exactly nothing to be concerned about, by all means snooze if tired. Her staying away and being really upset and Josh being awake wondering how to escape is totally within the norm of IBLP. It is so hard for regular people to imagine. I mean my husband would be awake for nights on end if something like this happened in our family, if he had to have a discussion about it with people in church, with friends,... Well, and he would be fighting the urge to not beat the crap out of perp. The adrenalin alone would not allow him to nap in the midst of that conversation. That is a normal, mentally healthy, father response by someone who has not been conditioned to believe his wife and children are irrelevant. I wish I could report that even with IBLP this is an aberration. I cannot.