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whangty

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  1. Just like to share the below article for everyone. This article did a broad survey of many different parenting philosophies around the world, often touching on several issues that we have dealt with. I have found it both helpful and enjoyable. https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2018/01/29/how-to-raise-a-prodigy
  2. My 10 year old son got started on Alcumus last week. It seems that he is spending a good amount of time every day (1 to 1.5 hrs). He says that he has been learning a lot. I have looked at his profile and it does seem that Alcumus is incredibly well-organized. So, I am just wondering how much learning can Alcumus offer to students, if they were to spend good amount of time on a regular basis. My son is about to get started on AoPS prealgra book, so I want him to be able to find a good balance between studying the book vs. playing Alcumus. It seems that Alcumus might be more fun, esp. for my son. Thx. much in advance for sharing your experience.
  3. Yes I think it is appropriate and important to continue to think about the final destination or end goal for our kids. What kind of people would we like our children to become esp. once they grow up and leave our home? I would be lying if I were to say that I have not noticed a trend in our area: ie. top musicians in our city youth orchestra or certain cello or violin studios not only have gone to some of the finest music schools but world-renowned academic schools for college. Yes, I do think colleges will look favorably upon our kids' musical pursuits. But, for now, for our 10 and 8 year old sons, preparing for college is really far removed from our day-to-day pursuit of various activities. For music, I believe there can be a great innate satisfaction in being able to capture or recreate beauty of music even at a very early stage. I remember the sparkle in my son's eyes when he played 'twinkle twinkle little star' for the first time with his teacher. Of course, he did not play it at a high level, but the fun and the joy was very real. Seeing that has given me a great joy as well. So I think at best pursuit of excellence in music can be a pursuit of increasing joy and beauty apart from fame and external validations like competitions. My son has not done a single competition for cello, and I would like to keep it that way as long as I can until his teacher suggests otherwise. Nowadays, my son especially derives a great joy and satisfaction in being to play music that he has heard on youtube, etc. It does not even have to be classical. Indeed, I too think it is super cool to be able to imitate Piano Guys or play songs like Viva La Vida by Cold Play in addition to playing pieces like Unaccompanied Cello Suites by Bach. I think my son now realizes that the more progress he makes, the more fun he can have in terms of wider selection of songs or pieces he can play. I just hope that this positive cycle of fun and increasing self-motivation would happen to my 8 year old son as well, who just got started on a cello 6 months ago. I suppose when it comes to math, esp. at highest level, there might be a similar intellectual satisfaction in being able to solve super hard problems. Although I do not understand such satisfaction personally, I have heard kids at IMO level referring to math as an artistic pursuit that they find a lot of beauty in addition to all the pressures that they do face. Again, I believe this satisfaction can be had apart from external validations. Now as for sports, esp. as a male (it seems that I might be the only male poster on this thread), I just want to say that not all parents have unhealthy ambitions when it comes to their kids' sports. Also, it seems to me that all the great ones in NFL, MLB, etc. invariably talk about their love of game as the reason for their success and accomplishments. So, yes, they might have been pushed by their parents and coaches. But along the journey, it seems that they developed the love and passion for the game themselves. It seems that parental abuse might be more common in more individual-oriented sports like gymnastics (e.g. Nadia Comaneci).
  4. Very valid point re the importance of staying fit. I love outdoors and enjoy running, hiking, and mountain climbing, esp. when I was a single. Unfortunately, we have not been able to enjoy outdoors as much thus far. Luckily, my son loves athletics; as a matter of fact, his favorite class at school is gym (PE). Glad that his new school will offer PE 4 times a week vs. 2 times at his current school.
  5. Thank you Ruth for sharing your experience. I certainly did not mean to cause any angst for you. I believe I can appreciate the unique challenge of pursuing music at a very high level -- not so much based on personal experience but through 2nd-hand and tertiary observations and stories that I have heard. I see serious students flying to Los Angeles every couple of weeks for a private lesson as well as going to music camps during summer, all of which demand sig. financial and time commitment. This is not even mentioning all the competitions that they participate in all around the USA and Canada and even abroad. And furthermore, as you mention, there is the horrendous challenge of making the schedule (including frequent need to cancel, reschedule, etc) and transportation work for practice with piano accompaniment, youth symphony or chamber music participation, etc. on top of kid's schedule, which might be already pretty full with school and other extracurricular activities. I am certainly hesitant to add more time for math for my son. Also, appreciate your point about how the innate motivation or love of learning matters greatly. I think a parent can introduce something to a child, but unless a child truly cares for it himself or herself, he or she will not make a significant progress. So, I hold loosely to our rather far-fetched goals, knowing that it would really depend on my son. . I think I can sympathize with your son's struggles in trying to juggle two activities at a very high level as well. Yes, it is scary that there is always a room for improvement and that there is always someone who is better. My son just went to a competition yesterday. Although he did well in my view, he was shocked by this kid, who finished the test in less than 20 minutes; this kid told everyone that he got a score in top 95% on AMC 10 as a fourth grader. Unless child simply enjoy the activity even apart from external validation, any sign of early success might not last and/or worse the child may crash and burn. Lastly, congratz on your son's amazing accomplishments. I tip my hat to you in having provided the love, support, and guidance for your son all these years. Esp. with musical commitment, it would not have been easy to say the least. Wish your son all the best in his college career. PS, just curious as to what your son is going to be studying or majoring in college? Is it math?
  6. Couldn't agree more on your point about how the world is not short of talented people but kind people. That is why I take my sons to food bank to volunteer and want to be intentional about continuing to expose them to so much needs that exist in our world. RE your disgust with kids being driven by parents to become NFL or MLB superstars, this is just something that I remain very ignorant, although I very much enjoy watching sports. I just had a romantic notion of kids like my sons having a pipe dream; i.e. a 5foot 8incher Asian guy trying to make a NFL team. I was at a loss when my son told me he also wants to play a running back. My son is among the smallest in his class. Like I have said before, a "problem" or a strength for my first son is that he wants to try so many things. The more impossible it seems, the more enticing it seems for him! Lastly, I am a dad, btw. Perhaps this may further help you to understand where some of my "male" points come from.
  7. Again, very much appreciate so much input from a lot of people. As is evident, people think differently on several issues, which I think is just fine. Just want to share some random thoughts triggered by reading different posts. 1. I hear loudly and clearly sincere caution from many for not to push a child too hard. I agree; this concern is very valid, esp. in light of many tragic "child prodigy" stories and mental health epidemic at almost all tippy top colleges. That is precisely why I have posted my question in the first place; i.e. I did not want to allow my child pursue a dream that is simply not realistic -- pursuing dual excellence in music and math. Honestly, I feel that my son's schedule is already full and demanding as is, without adding anything else. Right now he does have time almost daily to shoot basketball or play laser gun with our neighbor kids. However, I have never stated anything about competitions being our main goal. Some "Big, hairy, audacious" goals I have mentioned for cello include going to Meadowmount Summer Music Camp and making it to National Youth Orchestra (few students under my son's teacher have done this in the past and this year so I thought this was in the realm of possibility for my son). But, more than anything, I would hope for my son to continue to enjoy making music himself and share the beauty and joy of music with others, and this really has nothing to do with competitions (please see the youtube clip that I have included in my previous video, as this clip shows what I ultimately hope for my son to do with his musical talent). Noah Lee, one of the young musicians in the video, I think, started this "back to Bach" project, introducing classical music to esp. underprivileged kids who might have had very little exposure to classical music. Again, this is one of the things that I hope my son might do eventually with his musical interest and skills. And for math, what I have meant to say were to qualify for USAMO eventually. Esp. here I might not know what I am talking about. But again with young kids, why not dream big. BTW, my son is 10 years old, turning 11 this summer; we have held him back one year as he was summer-born. 2. Having the above goals however do not mean that I am going to require or ask my son to fulfill them. As my son and I usually discuss, if you work hard, usually good things happen. But, not always. And that is ok. Like Ruth said, the outward success such as winning competitions can almost be an accidental byproduct of hard work and dedication. So, like everything else, we will see what happens, and we will adjust. I am sure my son would continue to work hard, but we will be flexible. I have no idea how his interests and goals may evolve or change in the future. Even with the current big hairy audacious goals, we do not want to forget the daily journey and the process. At this point, my son has no aspiration for becoming a professional musician. It seems to me that one of the biggest benefits of music competitions can be in helping launch someone's career. But, this does not really apply to my son. 3. As far as achieving a balance in child's life, this is a tough one for me. I think I was wrong when I wrote earlier that it might be possible to have a great success in one area and also have a balanced childhood. Perhaps a happy childhood might be possible, but not the balanced childhood. It seems that just about anyone who became outrageously pointy in any area had a great deal to sacrifice in other areas of life, which may seem very unbalanced by outsiders but to the person it actually might not have been a bad life. I am thinking of people like Lang Lang who practiced 7,8 hours a day(Lang Lang's biography is a fascinating read), and more recently Chloe Kim, whose dad used to wake her up at some ungodly time like 2 am to take her to snowboarding practice when she was like 8 if I remember correctly. Also, I have read Chinese IMO students practice math like 8, 9 hours day, which sounds and is crazy by most people's standards. So, it seems that the higher one wants to go, the greater the price one needs to pay in giving up what we may call a normal life. So, my son will have to decide for himself, just what he wants out of his life. What is a good life or worthy life for him? Only he can choose and decide. Right now I can provide some guidance and help, but eventually it will be pretty much on him. Again, thx. so much for your inputs, which have answered some of my questions as well as raised some new questions for me.
  8. Thank you very much for sharing your first-hand experience. I agree with so much of what you have written: e.g. how tremendous effort is absolutely necessary for achieving mastery in music as well as math or for that matter pretty much anything in life. Also, your response reminded me of the perpetual debate of nature vs. nurture; it seems even natural talents need to be discovered and nurtured through appropriate exposure and guidance. As far as competitions go, my son actually has not done any competitions for cello yet. We will completely trust and follow the lead of his teacher, few of whose students actually have done rather well on a national and even on an international level. As for the math competitions, my son has done and enjoyed Math Kangaroo, Math is Cool, and couple others. Interestingly, my son's future career interests also lie in medicine, more specifically discovering cures for "incurable" diseases in the world. We shall see how this may evolve over time. Thx. again.
  9. Will do. Based on what I have read thus far, it seems that her son was able to discipline himself to study 2hrs. a day going through AoPS books starting when he was 12 years old. What a tremendous effort, followed by the great outcome! Thx. for this tip.
  10. Thank you everyone for your responses. Based on your advice and experiences, I would encourage my son to study AoPS books on his own for the time being, starting with prealgebra. Thx. again!
  11. Thank you for your input. It is def. helpful to hear how your family makes decisions together. Also I respect your intentional efforts in providing various exposure to your kids. Thx again!
  12. I found his story inspiring for two reasons. First, he somehow was able to discipline himself to that level of study and preparation. Second, in what he became eventually. He has since received his master's and Ph.d in math from Cambridge University in UK and is very much interested in teaching students, perhaps not to repeat what he went through. Yes, his story is depressing in many parts. But, through the lows and depressions, it seems that he got stronger and healthier ultimately. Sorry that I forgot to ask you to read +100 responses on that forum, almost all of which comment on how the story deeply resonated, inspired, and humbled the readers.
  13. Thx. again. Please allow me to add the below. First I want to share a little story. During my climbing trip to Nepal (a long time ago), I became heart-broken to witness that the children growing up in Himalayan villages were without access to quality education and role models in diverse fields such as scientists, doctors, engineers, etc. In their world, all they could imagine and see was what their parents were doing, which was being a Sherpa (climbing guide) or a porter. Even in their playing, I could see these young children pretending to be little porters with their miniature wooden baskets on their back. The vast world of science, medicine, research, etc. seemed almost completely unknown to these kids. I was glad to hear that an international school opened up later; hopefully the kids there can now dream of becoming someone different than what they see in their parents. My main point was simply that it is important for parents to provide guidance and exposure to children (esp. to younger children). I too agree that ultimately the choice needs to be in the hand of the child and that child takes a lead more and more esp. as he gets older. But, there is def. a place for parents to expose their children to different opportunities that are out there. Yes, our parenting philosophies may differ for one obvious reason. BTW, I completely respect your parenting philosophy. Half of my childhood was spent in Korea, and my wife spent her entire childhood in Korea. In Korea, it is normal for children to go to school from 7 am till 11 pm during high school without counting additional two or three hours many students spend in special tutoring schools; they even go to school on Saturday mornings. I don't necessarily approve of the Korean education model, but I am aware that I have been influenced by it, esp. when it comes to math and music education. But in the end, in spite of our differences, I believe we share more in common than we may realize in our love and concern for our children.
  14. Appreciate hearing your story. I respect your "hard and gutsy" decisions. I too have taken rather a circuitous route from an MBA and corporate marketing to my current job as a Christian minister. I also appreciate hearing your experience with college students who were reluctant to venture out in an unknown territory. As much as I want to help and support my children in their education and growth, I also want to respect their perspective, feelings, and desires more than mine. Thx. again.
  15. Again, thank you for your response. But, it seems that there have been a lot of misunderstandings and assumptions made about me and my son that are simply not true. To answer your question, I am trying my best to raise my children to be healthy, happy, and balanced individuals who will meaningfully contribute to the world through their talents and education. So I have emphasized from early on the value of hard work and have allowed or even encouraged them to dream big... why not esp. at a young age... my son's musical or math aspirations are really no different than kids dreaming of playing in MLB or NFL. Of course, these dreams might not be realistic for all sorts of reasons and may change as kids get older. But, I see nothing wrong in setting big goals and doing one's best trying to attain them even at a young age... What is the alternative? or for that matter, what is a balanced childhood? is it simply a lot of daily free time with no particular focus? I don't think it is an either/or proposition. I think you can have a balanced childhood while working really hard on something. It seems to me that without active and careful guidance from parents, more often than not, kids may simply resort to excessive TV, video games, etc. From an outsider's perspective, it might seem excessive for a child to practice a couple hours a day honing their musical or other skills. But, anyone who has achieved a high level of mastery in music or sports knows very well that such a dedication from a young age is exactly what it takes. It is simply a misunderstanding that all of these kids do not do anything else or that they are somehow robbed of their childhood. Like I have written before, winning a competition or a trophy is not the main goal for my son. Rather, it is to experience the simple but sublime joy of music and to share that joy with others. My son has already played at church several times. As he gets older, he will def. share his musical gift by visiting nursing homes and getting involved in fundraisers for causes that may capture his heart. Please check out this youtube clip. This group of young musicians represents what I hope my son to be able to do with his cello playing one day... i.e. glorifying God, touching the lives of people, and contributing in fundraising events for worthy causes. The first time I heard them, it brought tears because in addition to the beauty of their music making, I could sense all the hard work they would have put in over the years. I have a lot of respect for such people no matter the age. Again thank you for your response, as it helped me examine myself and my parenting philosophy again.
  16. Just read the article in NYT Re the violin prodigy. Great read! Thx. so much for mentioning it.
  17. Thank you again for your response. You raise some great questions. I think some great answers to your questions can be found by reading this article (titled math experience) found in the following link: https://artofproblemsolving.com/community/c5h280673 I just read this article yesterday and found it both moving and inspiring.
  18. Thank you again for your response. But, I just like to further clarify. Through playing cello in particular, my son has learned and experienced the value and reward of hard work. Of course it is not that fun to practice every day for 1.5 hrs, but the fun part usually comes later. Indeed, a lot of fun things have happened to my son like rapidly advancing through his youth orchestra and receiving an invitation to play in a masterclass with a well-known cellist, whose popular youtube videos have inspired him. When I noticed my son's interest and enjoyment in math and math competitions, I thought that his work ethic developed through cello can and does translate into math very well. I didn't ask my son to achieve greatness as a child in cello or math. I just ask him to strive to do his best in everything he does. I often remind him that there is no shame in losing or failing after you have done your best. Fortunately, through his hard work, my son has already attained some level of success. His recent acceptance letter to a leading day school in our area specifically noted his success in cello as well as his math accomplishments. I believe my son is quite happy and proud of these achievements and wants to work even harder.
  19. Wow, lots of helpful and thought-provoking responses, all of which I do appreciate a great deal! Thx. everyone for your input. Here are some clarifications. 1. My original question was really along the lines of whether anyone can become truly "pointy" in more than one area? For my son, playing cello for the last three years has been a rewarding but a challenging journey as well, as we had to prioritize his daily practice and his lesson and youth orchestra rehearsals. I suspect going all in trying to become a mathlete will demand similar dedication and focus. Yes, I initially introduced or pushed my son to cello, but he is really enjoying it himself. And, his interest in math competition has been self-initiated through his participation in a math circle and few competitions so far. In addition to helping my son to work more efficiently, my other challenge is to help him narrow down his interests that keep expanding. Esp. as he is super excited to switch to a private school this fall, he wants to try many things like soccer, cross country, student council, math club, etc. I like to help him make wise choices and manage his time effectively. 2. As for my comment on doing math 1.5 hrs. each day, that figure really came about after having read stories about a MathCounts national winner and this person who narrowly missed USAMO after devoting pretty much all his waking hours to math after school for a couple of years. I personally know of this girl who won a famous international music completion (jr. level) for violin in England at age 12; she practices three hours a day. I really wish that my kid could play outside a couple of hours each day after school and also have a plenty of time to read just for fun. But, if he wants to do some great things in math as well as cello, I do want to tell him upfront that it will take pretty significant effort in order to get there. However, I do want to be cognizant of the fine line between working hard in a good way vs. working too hard in a bad way. 3. As for the final outcome or goal for my son's interests in cello and math, we have discussed many times - much more for cello than math. For cello, it is simply that he would enjoy making beautiful music himself and share that sublime joy with others. It has been a great joy to witness some of this already. Plus, it may be a nice break from his academic pursuits. As for math, we have not given that much thought. Again, I appreciate and find everyone's input helpful.
  20. Thank you very much again for giving me several concrete examples. For my son who already spends on average of 1.5 hrs. a day on cello practice everyday, it is a real challenge trying to add more math time every day. It really seems that daily practice of similar length starting now would be a necessity in order to reach a high level in math. The camp questions were yes a bit further away in the future. Overall, I get your point re the danger of over-controlling your child. But, frankly, esp. at this age, it has not been that easy for me to discern the fine line. That is why I wanted to hear from other parents. Thank you again.
  21. Thank you very much for this suggestion. I also concur with you that both cello and math competition will be of benefit to my son or to any child in many different ways.
  22. Thank you very much for your response. Yes, I was careful to frame it as our pipe dream, since my son did not even know about these opportunities until I first learned and shared with him. Yes, I do want to be careful not to drive his life but at the same time I do want to keep plantings seeds for growth and challenging opportunities that my son might enjoy himself. Ultimately, the choice would be his, not mine.
  23. One specific question I forgot to ask: If my son were to do a math-focused summer camp like Awesome Math, Mathcamp, etc., would he be able to find time to practice cello during the camp? Or would it detract much from his math learning at these camps? Not practicing for a couple of weeks in summer, although not the end of the world, might be a significant set-back, esp. since his youth orchestra audition takes place in August. Thx!
  24. It is great to hear that aops books are digestible for young students without much outside help.
  25. My son seems to be similar to your child. He loves Alchemus (spelling?). He also loves any sort of competition. He would def. work harder in a team or a structured environment. However, I also think there is a lot of value in starting and finishing a book on one's own effort, esp. at a young age. I believe a mom from New Zealand (forgot her username) whose son has represented the country at IMO wrote that her son went through the AOPS algebra book on his own, and that experience was key in his learning true "problem-solving" skills that laid the foundation for his success in IMO.
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