Thanks!

Thanks for all the ideas, I'll look into them. I'm not a creative writer, and neither is her older brother, so I'm at a loss for how to ease a creative writer into academic writing. I would have thought that she would hate outlines, but we're going through TC, which does outlines that vaguely resemble KWO, and she has said that she finds it really helpful. I don't think she'd want to plan a novel out paragraph by paragraph that way, but for shorter stories, she really took to it.

I have a child that loves coming up with stories to tell her siblings and would probably be labeled a natural writer. If my other kids have writing assignments that involve playing around with sentences, I have to remind her not to insert herself into their assignments. We've been reading through MCT writing books without doing assignments and she has come to the conclusion that academic writing is boring. I'm looking for a logic stage writing program that won't make her wilt (I don't think she'd mesh well with WWS). My goals for her would be learning to outline and organize her thoughts before writing along with continuing to work on mechanics. I'm currently using TC for writing and MCT for grammar (voyage level), but I'm open to changing next year if need be. Suggestions? Currently on my radar are W&R and CW. I'd likely skip the fable level for both of those, as she has had plenty of rewriting fable practice by using ELTL in previous years.

We used ELTL the previous four years, but not this year. I love the instruction of the first years, especially grammar, but the writing requirements were outpacing my children's ability (one child using it above level the other is a reluctant writer).

I have the 5th edition, and it looks like there were enough changes that I can't direct you to exact page numbers or even section names to help you out.? I'll try and explain the main areas that would need to be read and understood. In mine, right after the pages on handwriting there is a section about oral and written phonogram review. It's when you do the review that you would use the phonogram cards. My edition has sections boxed off with headers of "Oral Phonogram Review Procedures" and "Written Phonogram Review Procedures" that scripts how to do it. After that is a section called "Teaching Spelling Using Phonograms and Rules" that gives an overview of the method and marking system. Then there is a section boxed off with "Spelling Dictation Procedures" with an example dialogue following. There are several videos on YouTube if you search for "Spalding Word Dictation," some of them are from other programs, but they are using a similar enough method that they'd still be helpful to watch. From the table of contents of the 6th edition, it looks like the phonogram list starts on page 206, you'll want to familiarize yourself with those. On page 221 is where the list of spelling rules starts, another thing you will want to read over. These rules will be mentioned in the book in the Extended Ayres list. I'm no help with where to start an older child. When I went through it, my child was young enough that I started him from the beginning.

That looks like a good tracing sheet. I've been having him do lines like row B, D, and E. He does have problem with it right now, so I'm hoping that practice will help with fluidity of his writing.

* what developmentally appropriate work looks like (either split by subject or age group) * Information specific to homeschooling in the specific state (legal requirements, high school requirements, can hs students join clubs/sports at ps, etc) * Ideas for the ________ loving student. (STEM, fiction, etc)

He's typing his work; his typing skills are fine and there are no complaints from him on that. I wouldn't say that he enjoys it. He enjoys a challenge in math, and comes out feel excited about the subject and his capabilities. He does not have that attitude about writing. Last year I had him using Imitation in Writing. By the end of the year, writing the outline was drudgery, but he said he enjoyed writing from the outline. He does fine writing from notes/outlines when the notes/outlines are his own. I'm not sure what it is about these assignments that causes him angst. I just asked him what he doesn't like about it and he says that sometimes he doesn't like the topic (he generally likes non-fiction, so I thought this would be a good fit for him), sometimes it's that his younger siblings are done with school and out playing, and he wants to be out playing with them. I'd say that maybe I need to move this to earlier in the day, but since this is a subject I need to be sitting with him, then his siblings would be inside playing (waiting for me to be available to work with them). If we did set it aside, what resources have you found that are good for this age?

The 4th edition is more straight forward, so it's nice for if you know nothing about the method. What I did was get the 4th via inter-library loan to read through for understanding, then I purchased and taught from a newer edition. The newer editions don't have phonogram cards in them the way the 4th does, but it does have a chart you can use to make your own. They also have an index of the words and which page you'll find the marked word on, which I have found useful over the years.

Thanks everyone! We'll keep plodding along, giving him more time for the assignments he needs it on.

The writing he produces is OK. I've given him a basic checklist of editing that helps. Sometimes I have to point out when a sentence doesn't make sense or the thoughts don't flow coherently--but when I do, he's typically able to figure out how to fix it. Once we've finished the editing process, I'm happy with his output--but, yes, it does take him a long time to get there.

We're partway into our school year, and my 6th grader is finding WWS1 to be very difficult. We're in the weeks 4-15 section and he does just fine with the days where he has to do a narration, outline, or update/write notes on one of the topos. It's the "practicing the topos" sections where he has to write from the list of notes that he breaks down and struggles to get it in a reasonable amount of time. We've already slowed it down so that he gets 2-3 days to do those sections. So, is this an indication that he's not ready and that we should shelve this for later? If so, what should I use in the meantime that could get him ready? To give his background, we've used ELTL (levels 1-4), Treasured Conversations, Killgallon (the yellow sentences book), and Imitation in Writing (fables) in years past. Or is this something that we should just keep on working through, slowly, and he'll eventually get it after enough practice?

I read and discuss the writing books (Sentence Island, Paragraph Town, etc), but I skip the writing activities and use a separate writing program. I've never used IEW, so I don't know if that would be overkill with MCT, but you could try.

Yeah, we were using a 0.7mm, which was causing problems. We're currently trying a "lead case". It holds 2mm leads (I think these are the same size as wooden pencil leads) and has a sharpener built in to ensure an nice tip. We got ones with softer lead for a darker line. The softer lead won't work on anything that requires a #2 pencil (HB is what you want for that). https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07CWRL4ZB/ I've been on him for a few years about how hard he presses on his paper. Within a few days he noticed that he doesn't do that with the lead case. He still is pressing hard (he says his hand drags/sticks on the paper), but he no longer causes indentations in his paper.

Thanks for the tips. I think I'll start by using college rule, but every other line (so essentially twice as tall). That is actually bigger than he attempts to write currently, but I think bigger will be more legible. Switching pencils had already helped. He used to press so hard to get a dark line that he made dents in the paper. He doesn't do that any more. He also is writing slightly larger in math since his pencil has a larger tip.

Thanks! Would the instruction manual be better or the one titled Write Now that is aimed at adults and older learners?

I had posted a little bit ago about my 6th grade son and his handwriting issues (possibly dysgraphia). I've ordered some thicker lead mechanical pencils for him and I'd like to start him on Getty Dubay. However, when I look at the books, it seems that most of them for older kids focus a lot on cursive italics. I'd like to just focus on the standard (non-cursive) italics. What would I purchase to start an older child, who can write smaller than the kindergarten line size, on the non-cursive Getty Dubay hand?

Paula's Archives has chapter titles in the alignment charts: http://da1.redshift.com/~bonajo/sotw3vphus.htm

My middle child started 3A as a supplement. Once she switched to BA as her main curriculum, she started to go more quickly. Schooling four days a week and taking breaks occasionally to focus on other things, here's the time she's taken per book: 3B-7 weeks 3C-7 weeks 3D-11 weeks 4A-12 weeks 4B-8 weeks 4C-11 weeks 4D-12 weeks 5A-She's at 11 weeks and is about halfway through the last chapter of the book. I estimate she has 2-3 weeks to go.

Thanks for the details. I'll pass it on to my husband and see if it helps change his mind about how to attack this.

I have some of those paper mate pencils around, as they're what I use when starting my kids with writing. My son doesn't like them, because he likes a narrower tip, so he prefers his 0.7mm mechanical pencil. I've been looking at pencils today (separate from this thread). My son always presses so hard when he writes because he wants a dark line. We've tried pens, but they've all smudged horribly for him. He also likes being able to erase to correct errors. The erasable pen we tried dried out way too quickly. So I've been looking into softer lead refills for his pencil. I can find 2B, and that should get a darker line with less pressure, which should relieve hand strain while writing. I had first taught him letter formation using instructions from WRTR (clock face instructions). For cursive, I used HLTL vertical cursive. He prefers print over that, so we've dropped cursive. My husband wants to try remediation for his handwriting, possibly with some sort of lefty-writing-coach, before trying to find an OT, so the tips about helping a lefty are useful. I was looking at HWT cursive today. Between Getty-Dubay or HWT Cursive, which would be easier to master?

He reads well (both nonsense words and real words), which is why I wasn't considering dyslexia, despite his poor spelling. I was figuring we'd want to get him evaluated at some point later (for accommodation purposes if he were to go to school rather than homeschool, need to take the SAT/ACT, or go onto college), but wasn't sure if it would be worth doing now. I know with the SAT/ACT, there needs to be a diagnosis/confirmation of diagnosis within a few years of the testing date. If we were to do testing now, it would be for access to OT. His handwriting is bad, but I was more hoping that there could be something to help him enough so that he would have some processing ability left while writing to put some focus on spelling and mechanics. I've written up a checklist for after he's done writing/typing; he goes back and uses it to see what errors to look for. He finds almost all his missing capitals, periods, and commas at that point, so I know he's capable of applying mechanics rules. I'm not looking for perfect handwriting so much as hoping that he could get to a point where it took less effort on his part to get the words down.

I recently came across this: https://www.understood.org/en/learning-attention-issues/child-learning-disabilities/dysgraphia/dysgraphia-what-youre-seeing-in-your-grade-schooler It describes my son so well. He really struggles with spelling, even at 11-years-old. His handwriting is bad (h and n look similar, r and v look similiar, letters don't always line up, they aren't always a consistent size). He often forgets to put proper spacing between words. Forgetting capitals and end marks is very common, especially when I dictate a single sentence. Writing assignments really frustrate him (more so a few years ago, but it is still something he complains about). There isn't much improvement in handwriting, word spacing, remembering to capitalize, etc. despite copywork always being a part of our homeschool. The other day he asked me to spell two words ("piece" and "foil") while writing a single sentence down. I spelled them both orally for him, but he wrote both down incorrectly ("pice" and "foyl"). But my son is also a lefty. And a boy. And not really into telling stories or creative things like that (which might impact desire to write). So I wonder how much of what I see is "normal" or to be expected. He doesn't reverse letters. He can write fairly small, it's just super sloppy. He's good at fine motor tasks like building lego, wood carving, etc. Looking into it, I'm not sure what a diagnosis could do for him as long as we're homeschooling. It seems mostly it would open up accommodations. But I already have him type most of his work. I already give him graph paper to use during math. I don't give him timed tests. I already let him do a lot of work orally. Are there interventions or treatments that an OT could provide that I'm missing in my searching?

We have this: https://www.amazon.com/Green-Tigers-Illustrated-Stories-Shakespeare/dp/1595833625/ The stories are Nesbit's narrative style adaptations, with full page illustrations on almost every other page. I got it when my middle kid was in 2nd grade, and she loved it.

I'm only about 4 weeks in, but the instructor manual so far has included rubrics for the narration assignments and "how to help your student" with the various lessons (if they get stuck outlining, summarizing, etc). I wish I had gotten a PDF to use on my tablet, because the instructor manual is as big as the student book.