LMD
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Posts posted by LMD
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39 minutes ago, KSera said:
I'm probably hard for people to figure out, as it would be hard to be more in two places at once on an issue as I am with this.
Sorry to pick on you but I had to come back to this. I believe that most people are in a similar space. I believe that a lot of the 'heat' in this discussion is due to forgetting this, and assuming that a different perspective = attack/hate. Somewhere along the way this board lost its goodwill.
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5 minutes ago, KSera said:
I don't think standing for women's rights is anti trans in the least. I have a lot of overlapping concerns. I think it's the sense that any concerns transgender people or those who love them have are dismissable because women's rights. Women's rights, absolutely, but also trans.
Yeah, I don't know. You seem to have softened a bit, but for most of the thread, I feel like you only see the places we differ and therefore paint me as anti-women. I'm probably hard for people to figure out, as it would be hard to be more in two places at once on an issue as I am with this. I love and support transgender people and feel fiercely defensive of their rights as people, while at the same time I think the US is operating completely outside the science at this point and harm is inadvertently and unintentionally being done to a lot of young people in the name of helping them. But in the face of all these laws that ARE being passed by people who are outwardly anti-trans and have that as their motivation, we can't begin to address the problems because people having basic rights and not being constantly persecuted comes first. It's frustrating as all get out to me (and that's putting it mildly).
Okay, re your first paragraph, I don't feel like I should be asked to 'but also' another demographic when speaking for women's rights. And I feel like the trans rights side is pretty well represented in this discussion. Having to phrase every post with an 'but also trans' assumes an anti-trans bias and feels less clarifying imo.
re second paragraph, from my perspective, I'm using my limited time to focus on those points where the clash of rights is obscured and not letting it be waved away. Yeah, it's not comfortable but I don't see another way. Maybe we do need some bridge building about the things we agree on, but I feel like they've already been said? Anyway, yes my priority is the rights women have already lost in law here, including when my friend was actually physically assaulted and blamed as the bad guy, instead of the many violent male bad guys to choose from. My focus is the intact male rapist right now sitting in the women's prison down the road. There is a lot of violent rhetoric spilling over and it's not only the right wing reactionaries, and it's not only trans people who deserve boundaries.
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I have repeatedly said that I want a respectful compromise that works for all parties.
If people think that standing for women's rights is 'anti trans'... honestly it says a lot more about their biases than mine. But if there's something I've said that is actually anti trans please point it out, I'll be happy to rephrase (within my own boundaries of being truthful), retract and apologise, or explain.
Eta - I know I'm coming off as... brash maybe? Or maybe you feel like I'm jumping on you/picking on you? Please know that my intention isn't personal, my intention is clarity. I do believe this can be solved but not by obscuring, ignoring, hyperbole or downplaying.
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I said it's going that way. Not that the whole thread has been that way.
If you think I have said something not in good faith, please point it out so I can explain. I may be a bit blunt, that's partly because ~dealing with baby~ and partly because I believe honesty and clarity is important, and this issue has been very confused for a long time.
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This discussion is going the way it always goes. 1. Too difficult, ignore difficult questions (so let males get their way). 2. Name calling. Bigot/hysterical "white" women (so let males get their way). 3. Emotional blackmail (so let males get their way).
No debate is over and none of the above is good enough if you actually care about finding solutions for trans people.
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5 minutes ago, prairiewindmomma said:
I am reminded of white women who screamed up and down about how dirty and diseased black women were and how harmed they would be sharing a bathroom with black women. White women needed to preserve their safety even if it meant black women didn’t have access to a bathroom.
It seems like a story that needs sharing today.
Interesting that this is your response. What are you implying exactly? Or are you just trying to get the thread locked?
Again, just be honest and say that you think violation of women's boundaries are an acceptable compromise.
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That link shows there isn't much data of crimes. What percentage of voyeuristic harassment is reported, do you think? Did the mom, who posted above, who had a man follow her and her baby into the shared bathroom and expose himself next to her report it? How do you know that 'man' wasn't a transwoman early in 'her' journey? That mom overrode her own instincts due to how the space was designated. How do you measure the women who self excluded?
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22 minutes ago, Terabith said:
You’re just wrong. About all of this.
A trans man (with xy chromosomes) is in danger regardless of where he goes, but he’s more in danger in the women’s restroom, because he’s going to be coded male.
A trans woman is In MAJOR danger in a men’s bathroom.
A trans woman who has been on estrogen and had testicles removed is not really stronger or more dangerous than any other woman.
Hang on, do you mean a transman with xx chromosomes?
Yes, that's why we're suggesting a neutral 3rd option.
Your last paragraph is just not true. But, if it was, would you suggest that a male be required to have that medical treatment before entering women's only spaces? I bet not. Also, if it was true, it still doesn't respect the boundaries of the women who will end up being excluded. Again, just be honest and say that's an acceptable price to you.
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1 hour ago, KSera said:
Okay, I finally had to look up uncanny valley because I'm not familiar with that expression. It seems like an unkind term to use in regard to actual people, as I only see it referring to a sense of revulsion fear and disgust that a person is a humanoid robot and not a real person. You have this "uncanny valley" response to transgender people? That's actually sad to me. I have all kinds of serious concerns with the current approaches to transgender care and the trends that are being seen, but these are real people deserving of respect and love.
While Buck Angel is a strange one for me to use given his p@rn background, which makes him someone I don't actually know much about beyond his name, I truly don't think I would have any way that I would guess if I didn't know from having seen his picture. He looks like a short but strong man. I find it gaslighting in the other direction to say that most women wouldn't feel uncomfortable if they were showering and he walked in.
It's an expression to describe a 'something is off' feeling. I don't mean revulsion or fear at all but perhaps that's my bad choice of phrase. Human brains are coded for pattern recognition, and one pattern we are exceedingly good at is within species sex differentiation. Our brains automatically do a little hiccup when the pattern is off. When the pattern is a close copy then the 'off' parts are more glaring. None of this means that trans people don't deserve respect or love, I have never said that. I actually think being honest about this is more respectful than happy clappy lies about perfectly stealth passing.
And I was the one who said bathrooms are relatively easy... IF all parties are respectful and reasonable AND a third space/unisex space was made available. Same with sports, female and male and/or open category. Not perfect, not a comment on current laws/spaces.
Buck is an interesting character, was married to the dominatrix who force femmed one of the wachowski twins. Out of curiosity, which prison do you think Buck or Aydian should be incarcerated in, if they were convicted of a crime?
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4 minutes ago, KSera said:
These things always focus on bathrooms, but I think the locker room situation where people are actually unclothed around other people is what is more of an issue to more people.
I know you don’t, but there are people who do and the kind of laws they want would entail masculine looking trans men being legally required to be in the women’s spaces. That was the point.
Well, you may well have have a particularly well developed sense, but I expect most people who don’t want men in the women’s room would feel uncomfortable with men who appear that masculine there.
My point was that using pictures from the internet is not an accurate representation, mammals sharing space in real life can tell sex with extreme accuracy, even with *some* characteristics disguised. I just think it's really quite cruel to pretend this isn't true.
I wouldn't support a law forcing transmen into female bathrooms. I would support a law protecting female only spaces, with an opt out option. The bad laws described sound like a reactionary blunt instrument. I can't help but think that discussion instead of 'no debate!!!' 5-10 years ago would have helped..
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4 minutes ago, KSera said:
You explained this more clearly than I have. That's what I was trying to say in an earlier post about why it's not actually "easy" to resolve at this point. I think as many places as practical providing private options for people who want them is probably the easiest for now.
I keep almost linking to some pictures, but can't decide if that's weird. I guess not if they're to well known people who are public about it. I think it might illustrate the point better than just words, but they will have to be links since we can't post pictures that aren't ours.
https://i.huffpost.com/gen/1495928/images/o-TRANS-MAN-facebook.jpg (Aydian Dowling)
https://i0.wp.com/thefightmag.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/BuckAngel1-s.jpg(Buck Angel)
I could keep going, but that should be sufficient for the point that people who think it's easy enough to just say everyone should use the facility that matches their biological sex might not realize that would entail people people who look like the above using the women's room, which I expect is not what they mean. Not because the people above are likely to pose an actual risk, but because if they are supposed to use the women's room, then there is no way to distinguish them from a biological male who shouldn't be there coming in for criminal reasons. It's not so straight forward.
Yeah, post a picture of Buck angel amongst a group of males and the difference is *stark.* I do accept that most people will just see ~beard + no boobs~ and think man.
I wasn't familiar with Aydian but after looking up, sorry, ditto to Buck.
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1 hour ago, Heartstrings said:
Everyone is convinced that they can tell. No one wants to believe that some of them pass.
Twice men I’ve followed on tik tok for months have turned out to be trans and I didn’t know, because their content focus was on some other thing.
I do know that some pass well, but come on, the internet is not real life and there are real life tells. Even if one can't articulate it there is an uncanny valley effect, things like gait, proportions, hand size etc. And it's not just one trait (tall woman), it's the constellation of traits. I've met the most lovely transwoman who passed better than most, this person still immediately triggered an uncanny valley effect in at least 3 adults. I don't think it's a kindness to pretend that humans can't recognise sex extremely effectively, or gaslight women to ignore that uncanny valley feeling.
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10 minutes ago, prairiewindmomma said:
I do understand that. Under PREA federal laws in the US, this should not have happened. The initial intake interview would have identified her nonconforming status and her history of rape. While she can’t be segregated solely due to her gender identification, risk assessment, and ongoing 6-month reassessments should have precluded her from sharing sleeping or showering facilities with other women.
His intact pen!s should have precluded him. Full stop.
You really should hear from the incarcerated Californian women. It's not good.
Amie Ichikawa does good work with incarcerated women (she was incarcerated in California herself)
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I've got one and it does work well! I have dark hair and fair skin which is it is the most effective on. I haven't been the most consistent lol but the patches I did consistently at first are still smooth, years later at this point.
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I'd love to see the receipts of a tall woman wearing pants facing legal repercussions
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1 minute ago, prairiewindmomma said:
I’ll try to dig up a recent report. I don’t have slides from the last conference I went to, but at the conference females were more likely to be sexually assaulted/raped at something like 5-6x what men were, and of those assaults, about half of those were from women being assaulted by male staff in the prisons. It varied by prison size and type and location, but that’s roughly what it worked out to. Women are 30x more likely to be raped inside of prison than out of it, but something like 80-90% of incarcerated women had been sexually assaulted or raped at some point in their lives prior to their most immediate incarceration.
Something like 2/3-3/4 of trans women in male housing reported rape, often repeatedly….they were much more likely to be assaulted then a man living in the male side of prison.
It’s been several months since I attended that, and I am sure the slides were pulled from various reports…but it looks like from my files that I didn’t download that file set. I don’t go into prisons or do domestic violence work currently so it wasn’t as relevant to me.
So you can surely understand why the women in my state are upset that a male rapist is locked in with them...
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1 minute ago, prairiewindmomma said:
Also, the rape and assault statistics on trans women housed in male populations are pretty horrific. I am linking this article because it has links to previous surveys and studies.
https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2021/06/23/us/trans-women-incarceration/index.html
Women aren't rape shields for vulnerable men.
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7 minutes ago, prairiewindmomma said:
Transgender women in the US are nearly always incarcerated with men here, if not given separate accommodations.
Not Dana Rivers, for one. He murdered a lesbian couple and their son and is today in a female prison. In fact, there's quite a few in California. Those incarcerated women are terrified.
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32 minutes ago, ktgrok said:
I was referring specifically to bathroom laws. I had posted that in the south the laws do not create a viable bathroom option for trans folks. Which basically is saying that trans folks should not be in public spaces, and that if the actual goal was just to make women safe rather than try to keep trans folks out of public spaces they would have written the law differently, required single person bathrooms, etc.
In reponse someone told me the reason they didn't require single person bathrooms when making it illegal to use the bathroom that doesn't conform to your sex at birth is that trans activists don't want that.
I explained that trans activists were not the ones in power in the southern united states, and had zero input on writing these laws.
That doesn't mean there are not trans activists lobbying for any number of things in other places.
But the fact of the matter is, it is right wing fundamentalists who consider transgender person an abomination writing the laws here, and the result is that legally at this point a transman has to use a women's room and a transwoman has to use the mens room, and given the potential for harassment, violence, or arrest that isn't feasible. Which is the goal - no feasible options.
My bold - that was me. I've seen it many times, even here on this board over the years, that a gender neutral option is 'outing and othering'
I don't know the ins and outs of American politics, but there are certainly some very rich and powerful pro trans lobby groups in the US. These sound like reactionary laws that aren't well thought out, though I haven't read the actual text.
I notice that 'potential for harassment and violence' makes using the bathrooms of their sex unfeasable, but can't you see that opening up women's bathrooms to any self id male creates *exactly the same* unfeasable risk to women (and stealth transwomen)?
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Triple post
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Double post
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49 minutes ago, ktgrok said:
I can 100 percent assure you that the laws about gender and bathroom use in my state and the rest of the south are NOT being made by trans activists or with their input or blessing.
I can 100% assure you that here & other places it turns out they are. Have you been watching the UK fallout with mermaids & tavistock? Activists. My best friend is a member of parliament, I know what's in that particular sausage. And so we have laws against talk therapy for 'trans' kids - affirmation only or you could face 10 years in prison. We have many many mostly women being fired and slandered (and worse) for bringing it up. We have a literal male rapist in our local female prison and that decision was made without the women's blessing - on the contrary, their pleas are being ignored and punished.
I'm sorry, but this has gone further than the poor confused kids.
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44 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:
They reject femaleness! Talk about having your cake and eating it. You're a man? Fine. Go be a man.
Gender neutral provision.
And transmen can campaign for it. Why should women? We female people have enough on our plates already.
Thank you
It's only difficult if you don't believe women have the right to their hard won boundaries. If you opt out of those boundaries, okay then, I wish you well, I'll still be here saying that women are allowed to have their boundaries.
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1 minute ago, Sneezyone said:
I don’t feel like ANY of the stats folks throw around here on this issue are well-established or settled. I may well be wrong in that view, I’m just reflexively hostile to irrational bigotry.
You are wrong.
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Drag Story time
in The Chat Board
Posted
Sorry, which incident? Where my friend was attacked? It did hit the media, in a way which is resulting in a defamation lawsuit. I'm in Australia, and I can link a bunch of proof if you want. But I wonder what 'greater context' you think you'll find...