[Question about diversity/inclusion language]

11 minutes ago, PronghornD said:

I said nothing about gaslighting. That was about the brain exercise of AVOIDING using pronouns altogether. It is an alternative to what some of you perceive to be gaslighting.

Yes, sorry, I was unnecessarily snarky

[Question about diversity/inclusion language]

10 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

My teenage daughter is most definitely a tattooed butch woman. Can't ride yet but does drive stick, and will ride when given the time and resources...because *I* ride. WTH does *robust* even mean in this context? That they should take the abuse of random people for shits and giggles? You are so offensive.

Are you saying that the accidental misgendering of a stranger years ago was abuse? I didn't bring up the scenario or your daughter. I have known many butch lesbians who don't at all mind being mistaken for men, they find it funny.

[Question about diversity/inclusion language]

17 minutes ago, Heartstrings said:

Which has to get weird to the point of absurdity.  Insisting on calling a person in a skirt, heels, full make up and nails,  a "he" and insisting on calling that person Benjamin when everyone else is calling them SallySue is going to get awkward.     

And I have not said any such thing

But calling a male in inappropriately/unprofessionally sexualised clothing who performs degrading and sexist stereotypes 'she' feels equally absurd to me.

[Question about diversity/inclusion language]

4 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

Statistics don't always represent or reflect individuals/anecdotes.

No, they don't. They are helpful in a general discussion on social trends though.

[Question about diversity/inclusion language]

2 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

MY F-ING DAUGHTER DOES. Pay up.

Your daughter is the butch woman biker that Prong accidentally misgendered as a teenager? Doubt

Most of the butch lesbians I've known do not care at all, they are some of the most robust people.

[Question about diversity/inclusion language]

15 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

That's not what LMD is discussing tho. It's in situations where repeated contact occurs, she feels it's her right and privilege to maintain employment WHILE refusing to use preferred pronouns.

Lol

Yes, having boundaries is my right.

As for the rest, your projection your problem

[Question about diversity/inclusion language]

Gaslighting is not brain exercise. Wow.

[Question about diversity/inclusion language]

3 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

What makes you think trans=middle class American kids from loving families? The people I was describing are NEITHER.

Statistics 

[Question about diversity/inclusion language]

21 minutes ago, Heartstrings said:

Ive mentioned before misgendering someone when I worked fast food as a teenager.  On first glance I thought it was man, but was corrected.  I don't think it was a trans person, I think it was just a more "butch" woman in motorcycle clothes.  I can't imagine standing there and arguing with them about their gender.  Where is the natural end in that? She doesn't have to show the teenager at McDs her genitals to be called ma'am instead of sir.  Which brings us back to genitals again...  Geez.  

I would bet my house that the butch woman biker also doesn't give a crap if someone says 'he' or 'sir'

[Question about diversity/inclusion language]

18 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

This is an example of treating trans people with the same dignity and respect that you yourself receive when interacting with others. If someone deliberately, and repeatedly referred to you as 'he', and you were marginalized in policy and practice, denied healthcare (another issue a coworker is dealing with for a minor child) you would feel otherwise.

1. I don't give a shiny sh!t if people perceive me as male, I know who and what I am I don't need outside validation. I've been through the unbalanced hormones facial hair wringer. Don't care.

2. Women have been (and in many places still are) marginalised in policy & practice and denied care on the basis of being female. Again, I don't assume that middle class American kids from loving families are the most vulnerable population in society that they require tissue paper delicacy and lies.

3. So no, don't tell me how I 'would' feel, I'm telling you how I feel.

[Question about diversity/inclusion language]

Adding - I've seen up close the spectacular wreckage left behind when adults don't have good boundaries because they just want to be kind. I don't consider it a kindness at all. I consider it emotional abuse.

[Question about diversity/inclusion language]

4 minutes ago, SHP said:

Ah, I think I see. I do not mean to come across that I was invalidating your experience.

Your perception of the person and their presentation is valid.

The person stating they prefer a different pronouns is also valid.

The two can exist. 

Them stating they prefer a different pronouns does not invalidate your perception. It is a statement that their internal experiences do not align with external perceptions of them. It doesn't make it gaslighting yourself to acknowledge their internal experience differs from your external perception and that you will show respect by honoring their request. 

 

I appreciate your respectful engagement here.

I agree the two can exist. I may choose the path of your last paragraph in some circumstances, especially professional ones, I can also imagine scenarios where my conscience would be violated (such as a very unwell/dissociated person where it would do more harm than good). But I absolutely will not be coerced or bullied. Those are immediate red flags that the encounter is in fact not mutually respectful and so my boundaries go up.

[Question about diversity/inclusion language]

Engaging with doesn't = leave your brain, lived experience and conscience at the door

[Question about diversity/inclusion language]

3 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

If their conscience doesn't allow them to respect the HUMANITY of the other person or their preferred method of address, they're not colleagues.

If someone has convinced themselves that others have to lie to 'respect their humanity' then we're at an impass.

Eta - to be clear I think this is an example of treating trans people like tissue paper and is ultimately cruel to encourage them to believe everyone hates them if they don't believe exactly the same as them.

[Question about diversity/inclusion language]

There is nothing kind about forcing colleagues to violate their conscience 

[Question about diversity/inclusion language]

1 minute ago, Sneezyone said:

If your boundary includes the deliberate misgendering of people that would seem to suggest you'd be perfectly comfy doing that in person. If you're not, then it's just rage tweeting bluster and cowardice, not conviction.

Finding a mutually kind and respectful compromise is 'bluster and cowardice'? Interesting.

[Question about diversity/inclusion language]

1 minute ago, Sneezyone said:

Did it steal your breath? Good.

Personally, I enforce MY BOUNDARIES by not engaging with those I don't want to engage with, not misgendering them to their face.

Please quote where did I say misgendering anyone to their face?

And feel free not to engage. 

[Question about diversity/inclusion language]

3 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

They're already dug in on lots of things. It doesn't mean everyone else has to cosign it or forgo pointing out the obvious flaws in that stance.

The irony is just flabbergasting

[Question about diversity/inclusion language]

2 minutes ago, PronghornD said:

Strange that I never manage to meet this type of trans person. And I have met quite a few trans people.

Count yourself lucky then 

Eta - I assume you just haven't perpetrated wrong think & recieved the lovely porn soaked rape and death threats. Genuinely, lucky you.

[Question about diversity/inclusion language]

5 minutes ago, SHP said:

Given the response I recieved from asking the question 

 

Ok. What about someone who is closer to passing? What about someone you called 'she' asking to be called 'he'?

Is there a difference? What is it?

Serious question, I almost exclusively only see the conversation in the example presented. 

The difference is my boundary. As I said before: The ability to identify and express material reality is a hard won boundary for me. I'm not going around yelling 'man man' at transwomen or anything ridiculous like that, I am polite, respectful, and hold my own boundaries. Asking me 'but what if they tried to violate your boundaries more convincingly' isn't exactly comforting.

If those in the original example presented were more respectful of women's boundaries (physical & language), there'd be a whole lot more goodwill to go around.

[Question about diversity/inclusion language]

All of that cuts both ways. The person requesting pronouns is not the only one who deserves respect, nor are they even always the most vulnerable person in the conversation. Treating them like tissue paper doesn't help them. Running into a kind, polite but unapologetic disagreement is not violence.

Eta - As someone who has seen real violence, both physical and not, up close and personal, and as someone who has seen extraordinarily privileged, supported & encouraged people weaponise polite boundary-holding as violence, this smug 'we're the good ones who understand' routine is cloying.

[Question about diversity/inclusion language]

Just now, SHP said:

Then if someone says "I am not a 'he' please use 'she'" do you? Or do you decide that you know better than they do and continue to use 'he'?

Why or why not? 

 

There is no emotional plea here.

 

It depends. I would find it a violation of my values & dignity as a woman to call a male presenting with sexist, pornified, fetishised, misogynist stereotypes as 'she'. That is my pattern recognition kicking in, and so I won't gaslight myself to ignore it.

In other instances, it depends on context. Mostly I call people 'you' & treat them with respect in direct conversation and don't gossip about them later.

 

[Question about diversity/inclusion language]

11 minutes ago, SHP said:

I never said anything about medication or surgery. I said pronouns. 

And yes, if you have been told to use a certain pronoun by a person for themselves and you decide that you know better than them, then you have denied them autonomy. That is violence.

 

No it isn't.

If I use sex based pronouns, that is my own response to the reality before my own eyes. The 'violence' is emotionally manipulating me into gaslighting myself. No. Btdt. The ability to identify and express material reality is a hard won boundary for me.

In real life, I am kind and treat people with the dignity that humans intrinsically have. In discussions on the internet I don't get personal about people's children and I also don't get cowed by emotional pleas to shut down conversation. It is an uncomfortable conversation. I'm willing to be the bad guy. I'm not willing to shut up.

[Doctors are confusing sometimes]

Big hugs Melissa 💜

[Question about diversity/inclusion language]

Okay, fine, take away the medication part then.

I agree with you on why we educate them. I find that profoundly hopeful. Humans have so much potential!

I was responding to the ideas that the world is ending anyway so why have kids and why not 'live your true self' in the short time we have left - just not your biological self as a sexed mammal with the deep biological drive to reproduce. That sounds so despairing to me.