Yes, sorry, I was unnecessarily snarky

Are you saying that the accidental misgendering of a stranger years ago was abuse? I didn't bring up the scenario or your daughter. I have known many butch lesbians who don't at all mind being mistaken for men, they find it funny.

And I have not said any such thing But calling a male in inappropriately/unprofessionally sexualised clothing who performs degrading and sexist stereotypes 'she' feels equally absurd to me.

No, they don't. They are helpful in a general discussion on social trends though.

Your daughter is the butch woman biker that Prong accidentally misgendered as a teenager? Doubt Most of the butch lesbians I've known do not care at all, they are some of the most robust people.

Lol Yes, having boundaries is my right. As for the rest, your projection your problem

Gaslighting is not brain exercise. Wow.

Statistics

I would bet my house that the butch woman biker also doesn't give a crap if someone says 'he' or 'sir'

1. I don't give a shiny sh!t if people perceive me as male, I know who and what I am I don't need outside validation. I've been through the unbalanced hormones facial hair wringer. Don't care. 2. Women have been (and in many places still are) marginalised in policy & practice and denied care on the basis of being female. Again, I don't assume that middle class American kids from loving families are the most vulnerable population in society that they require tissue paper delicacy and lies. 3. So no, don't tell me how I 'would' feel, I'm telling you how I feel.

Adding - I've seen up close the spectacular wreckage left behind when adults don't have good boundaries because they just want to be kind. I don't consider it a kindness at all. I consider it emotional abuse.

I appreciate your respectful engagement here. I agree the two can exist. I may choose the path of your last paragraph in some circumstances, especially professional ones, I can also imagine scenarios where my conscience would be violated (such as a very unwell/dissociated person where it would do more harm than good). But I absolutely will not be coerced or bullied. Those are immediate red flags that the encounter is in fact not mutually respectful and so my boundaries go up.

Engaging with doesn't = leave your brain, lived experience and conscience at the door

If someone has convinced themselves that others have to lie to 'respect their humanity' then we're at an impass. Eta - to be clear I think this is an example of treating trans people like tissue paper and is ultimately cruel to encourage them to believe everyone hates them if they don't believe exactly the same as them.

There is nothing kind about forcing colleagues to violate their conscience

Finding a mutually kind and respectful compromise is 'bluster and cowardice'? Interesting.

Please quote where did I say misgendering anyone to their face? And feel free not to engage.

The irony is just flabbergasting

Count yourself lucky then Eta - I assume you just haven't perpetrated wrong think & recieved the lovely porn soaked rape and death threats. Genuinely, lucky you.

The difference is my boundary. As I said before: The ability to identify and express material reality is a hard won boundary for me. I'm not going around yelling 'man man' at transwomen or anything ridiculous like that, I am polite, respectful, and hold my own boundaries. Asking me 'but what if they tried to violate your boundaries more convincingly' isn't exactly comforting. If those in the original example presented were more respectful of women's boundaries (physical & language), there'd be a whole lot more goodwill to go around.

All of that cuts both ways. The person requesting pronouns is not the only one who deserves respect, nor are they even always the most vulnerable person in the conversation. Treating them like tissue paper doesn't help them. Running into a kind, polite but unapologetic disagreement is not violence. Eta - As someone who has seen real violence, both physical and not, up close and personal, and as someone who has seen extraordinarily privileged, supported & encouraged people weaponise polite boundary-holding as violence, this smug 'we're the good ones who understand' routine is cloying.

It depends. I would find it a violation of my values & dignity as a woman to call a male presenting with sexist, pornified, fetishised, misogynist stereotypes as 'she'. That is my pattern recognition kicking in, and so I won't gaslight myself to ignore it. In other instances, it depends on context. Mostly I call people 'you' & treat them with respect in direct conversation and don't gossip about them later.

No it isn't. If I use sex based pronouns, that is my own response to the reality before my own eyes. The 'violence' is emotionally manipulating me into gaslighting myself. No. Btdt. The ability to identify and express material reality is a hard won boundary for me. In real life, I am kind and treat people with the dignity that humans intrinsically have. In discussions on the internet I don't get personal about people's children and I also don't get cowed by emotional pleas to shut down conversation. It is an uncomfortable conversation. I'm willing to be the bad guy. I'm not willing to shut up.

Big hugs Melissa 💜

Okay, fine, take away the medication part then. I agree with you on why we educate them. I find that profoundly hopeful. Humans have so much potential! I was responding to the ideas that the world is ending anyway so why have kids and why not 'live your true self' in the short time we have left - just not your biological self as a sexed mammal with the deep biological drive to reproduce. That sounds so despairing to me.