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Targhee

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    Different kids, different curricula

    in General Education Discussion Board

    Posted · Edited by Targhee

    We don’t use almost-all-in-one things like AO or SL, but we do different maths, different English, even different history and science for my kids if needed.  I stopped being able to group the older three into one history because oldest hated history and DS loves. In sciences we studied topics of interest, which diverged when the oldest two were about 12 and 10.  I have always tried to match skills (math, writing, spelling) to their learning styles. So yes, it can be done.  And I might add that about the same age when interests diverged I started outsourcing some. At first one thing, then by the time 8th grade hit oldest only had 1 class taught directly by me and DS only has one class taught directly by me (both writing). He has two classes at the middle school, three online classes, and writing with me. Plus electives but they are self-driven.

    The Good and The Beautiful Reviews

    in K-8 Curriculum Board

    Posted · Edited by Targhee

    We only tried the samples. It did not line up with where my kids were - reading was below, volume of writing was above, and it just felt like wearing an outfit that was cut wrong and the wrong size. That’s the hardest thing for me with a total language arts package - it rarely hits right where it needs to in any subskill. Hope you find what you’re looking for!

    ETA just read the bit in the middle 🙄 I’m a member of the Church of Jesus Christ (of Latter-Day Saints, aka Mormon), and while I didn’t like the curriculum for the reasons mentioned, I did not find anything but milk-toast Christian sentiment in it.  I am blown away that anyone would dismiss it our of hand for red rock art work. 

    • Like 4

    Who's pulling the strings in Classical Christian Education? (CC content)

    in General Education Discussion Board

    Posted

    10 minutes ago, Bluegoat said:

    I do think there is something to be said for diving in.  Sometimes you start to see the point of certain ideas, or start to wonder what the point is, when you try them out.  Then you can make a lot more sense of the ideas when you come across them.

    I mean, I think this is why so many people find their philosophy, not to mention their practise, develops over the years.  I started as a classical homeschooler, mostly because it seemed to bear some relation to what I considered to be the classical tradition - as I read more I kind of floundered about within that a bit, and I ended up a pretty committed CM homeschooler.  But that took a number of years.  I doubt I'd have got there had I not just started.

    Yes, dive in! Just don’t claim you have “the” version of classical homeschooling, or that it’s even classical homeschooling when it isn’t.  Just say you’re homeschooling with a classical bent/flavor/angle/etc or you’re exploring.  The OP was all about people claiming “classical Christian education” and disparaging others who do it differently. Then there were comments about recipe version of classical, which I’m not saying isn’t ok but probably isn’t classical? 

    • Like 2

    Who's pulling the strings in Classical Christian Education? (CC content)

    in General Education Discussion Board

    Posted

    45 minutes ago, Ausmumof3 said:

    Absolutely.  I just think when you suddenly find yourself homeschooling with five kids it’s fine to look for something to get you started while you read and learn.  I mean you can’t just take six months off educating your kids while you learn educational philosophy.

    for what it’s worth I think some of this comes down to being a whole to parts versus parts to whole learner.   Using your bread analogy I actually do frequently the recipes for things I’ve never eaten before.  Sometimes we love them as is sometimes we modify them.  Often when I finally eat the thing somewhere else (creme caramel or Thai curry) what I created was very similar and yummy - other times I’ve ended up with a different result but something that still tastes good.  This works as an analogy for education too I think.  We’re never truly going to create a Montessori school or a Charlotte mason school or a classical school on our home.  What we can do is take the elements that work and create something beautiful all of our own.

    True, you can’t wait and need to get going.  That’s why I tell parents when just starting to do the three Rs: read to their kids, read themselves, and set up routine.  Later, when you have a routine set and know what you want to do you can do it in earnest. I would  rather start off with making toast and call it toast than call it baking bread. I guess I’m an idealist, and words and meanings matter to me. 

    I have to laugh - the quoted emojis come across on my tablet about 3” in diameter - that was a major frowny face!

    • Like 1

    Who's pulling the strings in Classical Christian Education? (CC content)

    in General Education Discussion Board

    Posted · Edited by Targhee

    28 minutes ago, Ausmumof3 said:

    I will say for me I came to classical education backwards.  I always wanted to homeschool because I knew about that but I’d never even heard of classical education or Charlotte mason or any of it.   I came to this forum thanks to a search for homeschooling math curriculum.  At that stage I was doing Sonlight but the forum made me switch out their first math option to Singapore.  I read and learned a bit here from discussions and links, eventually had to ditch Sonlight due to costs and bought the well trained mind.  Somewhere along the way I came across Charlotte Mason and read all her volumes and works.  I think  while I’ve implemented bits from all the methods I don’t have a really solid philosophy on any of them.  Thing is for me homeschooling was always the important thing.  

    Part of what the op may be seeing is that classical education is becoming more of a thing in itself separate from homeschooling as a philosophy.  Now it’s a thing where there is a classical education movement and a homeschooling option and we just happen to be at the intersection.  Many of the voices of the classical education community don’t come from the perspective of home is best and are pretty happy to ditch the model of mum as teacher for a better classical education. 

    I don’t personally think it’s necessarily wrong to want a formula to apply to begin with.  If you had time to read and delve into philosophy before homeschooling your kids that’s great.  But for some parents homeschooling has been kind of forced on them.   They might have heard that classical education is good but they can’t delay educating their kids six months to figure out what it is.  They need to jump in and start something even if that means refining the philosophy on the go.  Also as an aside often the philosophy makes so much more sense or needs to be ditched completely in the real nitty gritty of day to day education of a real child especially if there’s learning challenges.  

    Heck teachers get a lot of educational theory at school but I think to some degree primary students do better with a teacher who actually know grammar and spelling and how to do math than one who knows all about educational theory but fails basic spelling or something.

    Perhaps to begin with, but even then a formula puts the practices above the aims. How can you follow a recipe to make bread if you have never seen or tasted bread yourself? You would certainly want to study to find out what bread is like, no? 

    The bigger issue for me with neoclassical and formulaic approaches to classical education is that for a truly classical education you need a community/environment which supports/points towards classical education.  I lament all the “almost” classical education things and people I see because I so wish they were actually classical and part of my community so I could better provide for my children that ineffable goal of a real, classical education. 😞

    If you have an amazing writer and stuck with the SAME writing program-what was it?

    in K-8 Curriculum Board

    Posted

    12 minutes ago, Farrar said:

    My gut agrees with you. But my head is rebelling. I think that culturally we tend to diminish a lot of hard earned skills into being "natural gifts." When students don't display them, we tend to dismiss them as "just not gifted." I don't want to dismiss that some kids just seem to have a knack, a calling, a gift, whatever you want to name it. However, I don't buy that you can't learn those skills and be just as good if not better. Whatever natural talent there is for writing (or music, dance, math, or anything else we tend to crystalize into just having a gift for it), I think it really only ends up amounting to a small portion of the talent we see on display, especially by the time a student is in high school and college.

    I think a lot of it is a self-fulfilling prophecy. A student learns to read easily, perhaps because of a natural gift. They read a lot. They have good small motor skills - again, perhaps because of a natural propensity. So boom, they write early and reasonably well quickly because of those things. Adults praise them. What a good writer you are! So they write more. And they read more. And those things improve their writing, because practice makes perfect. By the time they're in middle school, everyone is convinced they have a natural talent, which leads to more praise, which leads to more writing. It's a cycle that doesn't stop, but it really only started with a tiny seed of being able to read a little faster than their classmates. Meanwhile, the kid who struggled a bit with reading and writing gets to middle school already thinking they're a "bad" writer. So they write less. They don't try as hard. They don't look for praise from writing. So they don't improve as much and the gap between them grows even more.

    My dd went to public 1st where they were supposed to be composing paragraphs with good structure. I asked the teacher why the high standard of writing, when many kids seem to be struggling still to grip a pencil, sit still, or remember how to spell high frequency words like “have”? She told me they looked at those who scored best on the 4th grade state wide writing assessments, then went back and looked at the individuals’ writing performance in 1st grade and set standards based on that. 😦 Talk about trying to shove the bell curve... the most stupid basis for achievement standards!  So I completely agree there are problems here.

    And as far as “the knack” well, I think you are probably right there was some talent and it reinforced itself. I don’t think it’s something innate that comes without environment or reinforcement.  I suppose what I was trying to say was that most everyone can become a good writer - teachers and programs and other facilitators help.  But can you really teach a student into amazingness? Can you “create” a Dickins or a Mozart or a Michelangelo? I don’t think so.

    • Like 1

    Who's pulling the strings in Classical Christian Education? (CC content)

    in General Education Discussion Board

    Posted · Edited by Targhee

    The entire subject of “what is classical education” aside, and looking at the bolded...

    On 2/22/2019 at 9:58 AM, Doodlebug said:

    I've been in the classical homeschool community for at least a decade.  Compared to some of you, that's nothing.  However, even in my time, I've seen so much change.  Part of that is likely because I'm growing, too, and thin veneers are easily seen.  But I'm now thinking it's something more.  There seems to be an overwhelming insistence that classical education become something less... humble and free?  (I'm talking deeper than pyramid schemes, here.)  

    Based on the smattering of reading and listening I do, there seems to be growing "push" in a direction that's more rigid, wears knowledge as pride (as opposed to gift), and scoffing at parents has become sport.  What is up with this?  Is this some collective phenomenon, or is there more to it that I haven't put together (a broader influence)?     

    I came to classical Christian education because it gave me a playground.  Many caves to explore!  And those became places our family explored together, finding treasures and marveling.  I'm still on that playground discovering, but there seem to be more "kids" on the playground throwing rocks, butting, and giving the appearance of a take-over.  I'm nonplussed.  However, I'm curious about the shift.  Thoughts?     

     

    ...it sounds like so many other areas of contemporary culture. Where else do we see people banding in packs to lob “rocks,” and especially at something established?

    I have fortunately not seen what you describe in your OP, but then again I have only a handful of IRL homeschoolers with whom I associate, none of whom are attempting classical pedagogy.  And for that matter I find myself (and my community) deficient in so many ways I believe necessary to providing a truly classical education I doubt I’d be anyone’s rock-throwing target.

    • Like 1

    If you have an amazing writer and stuck with the SAME writing program-what was it?

    in K-8 Curriculum Board

    Posted

    16 hours ago, Farrar said:

    I honestly don't think programs create great writers. Obviously students themselves can simply have the drive to turn themselves into great writers. However, I think most of the time teachers do it. Programs guide you, but in the end, a good program (which most of these being discussed seem to be - I don't have experience with all of them) can fail a student and teacher, especially if it's a mismatch or if the teacher doesn't guide with an active, compassionate hand.

    I agree for the most part. I would say both a program and a teacher are guides, but “amazing” writers have the knack. Is it innate? Is it organically derived from experience and environment? A blend of the two? I’m uncertain, but I’m pretty sure it’s neither a program nor a teacher, though they can help in some ways.

    If you have an amazing writer and stuck with the SAME writing program-what was it?

    in K-8 Curriculum Board

    Posted

    Not to throw out too much of an argument, but my take is this: If you have an amazing writer, you have an amazing writer.

    Either you have stumbled upon a program that clicked sonperfectly with your child’s way of thinking, or your child had naturally writing and communication gifts that they would become an amazing writer even if you chose a horrible program, but either way you lucked out. 😒

    You can also have a good program that helps develop an average kid into a good writer.  Programs can help, but programs don’t create amazing writers. Theres much to be said, however, for the art and gift of writing some people just seem to have.

    Writing with Skill

    in K-8 Curriculum Board

    Posted

    3 hours ago, alisha said:

    Can I ask what you moved to that was more "forest"-like? Thanks!

    We actually went to LTOW because we need to work on essays.  There’s more big picture in this because you complete an essay before mastering the individual components. Each essay has new invention (generating ideas and support - *thinking* about things), arrangement (organization and components of an essay), and elocution (style, composition writing from your outline) lessons working on specific skills and ending in an essay.  Each time through the cycle you deepen skills/structural elements  already learned and add new things.

    • Like 1

    Writing with Skill

    in K-8 Curriculum Board

    Posted

    She should be able to summarize succinctly, follow directions well, do basic outlining, and be willing to move through the building of skills without really understanding the end point.  There’s lots of trees - good things - no forest.  We couldn’t use it very long for that reason.

    Ketogenic eating / adhd, asd, or LDs

    in The Chat Board

    Posted

    29 minutes ago, Pen said:

     

     

    Perhaps.

    But I don’t think we know for sure.

    It used to be assumed that the brain was fixed.

    If someone had a Tbi and brain damage there was largely an attitude that it would be permanent.  Or permanent beyond any recovery in the first few months.  Then in recent decades it has become increasingly clear that this is not so, the brain can and does change, repair, grow (or shrink). 

    I think it is possible that an ADHD brain could grow in areas that are smaller than non Adhd brains,  gain better blood flow to areas such as prefrontal cortex which are lacking that, and gain better neurotransmitter functions .  And I think it possible that food, as providing basic building blocks for body tissues, could be important in that, though not the only factor in it.  Perhaps necessary, but not alone sufficient .

    I see the bolded as being the biggest thing.  We could ALL grow better brains and bodies if we ate better building blocks, sure.  But, even if I ate the BEST building blocks I am not going to grow any taller than my genetic maximum, though some other person may grow to be a foot taller than myself.  Current research suggests that ADHD has an extremely high genetic component - those brain based differences are coded for.  Perhaps in there are some nutrition based things - like say poor absorption of Fe or the like (just a hypothetical) - but the bulk of the neurodivergence we see in ADHD seems to come from encoded differences, and not environmental.

    • Like 2

    Ketogenic eating / adhd, asd, or LDs

    in The Chat Board

    Posted · Edited by Targhee

    We did not do keto-genic specific dieting, but we did do a year of Whole30 in an attempt to remove possible irritants/exacerbators from kids' diets.  We gradually went back to regular eating.  Changes were slight. We will take whatever we get though.  My assumption is that these cannot change the underlying brain based differences in individuals with ADHD, but can reduce ADHD-like symptoms that arise from food intolerance or other food related issues.  Basically, if you think changing your diet cures your ADHD you didn't have ADHD to begin with.

    With that said... The things which seemed to be most beneficial: high protein, removal of simple carbs, regular meal times, no refined sugars.  We retinroduced beans, orgnaic grain corn, honey, maple syrup, oats, rice, spelt, and whole wheat and did not see any negative effect when reintroducing.  However, when cheese and refined breads came back into the picture, and refined sugars, we were back at square one.  At times we have gone back to eliminating refined sugars and non-whole-meal grains, and limiting dairy.  We gain back those slight improvements.  However, the problem is the kids LIKE sugar, white flour baked goods, etc. and they are old enough I cannot control their eating behaviors outside of our home.  And with ADHD being able to keep the long term benefits in sight when faced with a tempting food is very difficult.  That's the impulsivity side.  So its pick your poison - be the overbearing and controlling parent who is hyper vigilant about their diet, or present them with the facts and remind them of past success and let them choose and (hopefully) discover the balance for themselves at some future point in time.  

    • Like 4

    Plans vs reality

    in General Education Discussion Board

    Posted

    Forcing myself to write this early stages plan so I think about it more, and see everyone else€™s updates. We started last week

     

    ELA: LToW very slowly, and maybe onlineG3 lit again,  Patchwork of things including LToW essays 1-7, parts of Writers INC and MCT Essay Voyage as well, Magic Lens 1, Jacob's Ladder 4, Killgallon, Poetry and Humanity, mom-directed lit

     

    Latin: Lukeion Latin 1 (the one thing that seems certain)

     

    Math: do the next thing with AOPS (preA is taking a while, but that€™s OK, I have Intro to Alg and C&P ready when he is) He's doing the AOPS online Algebra A starting OCT

     

    History: ?? He likes OnlineG3 histories her€™s done, but he will be combining with oldest so I’m not positive which class yet. Big History with OnlineG3

     

     Science: either at the middle school or Marine Ecology by Mom (using a few texts, Great Courses, and a couple of trade books)

     

    Electives: band (middle school), private sax lessons, soccer, parkour, scouting merit badges, NaNoWriMo, Superstar Student, Music Theory for Electronic Musicians

     

    Above corrections in blue were were made in August.  We didn’t use Jacobs Ladder much, and we didn’t use Poetry and Humanity at all.  LTOW is moving slowly (just finished essay 3), but that’s ok. Otherwise we are on track.  This year has been one I have better stuck to my plan.

    • Like 2

    Plans vs reality

    in General Education Discussion Board

    Posted

    On 6/2/2018 at 4:25 PM, Targhee said:

    I post in these threads and it gets me going but I usually, after further contemplation, make big changes.

    Singapore PM 1A/B

    LOE Foundations B-D, books from our family library she reads to me, copywork, poetry memorization 

    Jr Great Books Pegasus, finish vol 1 and move to vol 2 of Journeys Through Bookland, lots of other read alouds from  family and public libraries...

    Geography, very gently with resources I already have, no real spine

    Singapore Early Bird Science (I never buy science for this age, but this year I’m not goin to be available to do much for science like I usually do ? so this is my backup)

    Artistic Pursuits

     

    The only difference here is that we stopped LOE Foundations after B and began PLL.  We also stopped JGB after a while because Dad couldn’t help with the “at home” parts like I had hoped.  We have finished Singapore PM 1A and B and begun 2a.

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