I had no idea that even was a thing. Learn something new and all.... :lol:

What a cutie! Hope your friend wins, How cool!

:grouphug: I am so sorry :grouphug:

I never said it would be a comfortable conversation. But it is how I feel right now. You compared me to criminals who need to straighten up. How do you think that makes me feel?

I wanted you to comment. I was waiting for your response before I decided to delete the thing. I am sorry if i said or implied that because it was not what i meant. I thought I was saying I dont understand why you are telling me what you are telling me. And no it is is not obvious. When you say someone like you I did not know if you meant the someone who is so worthless that people treat her that way or the someone who is broken and can not function in society. So I asked. And you told me. Thank you. That makes sense.

I was posting so I missed what you originally said. I did not want you to think I did the line by line after you said this, lol. I went line by line because this is important to me and I am trying to understand. I think she might understand this. I am not trying to pick apart what you said. I am trying to have a conversation.

I read and thought about what you wrote. I can not tell if you lack civility or thoughtfulness or effective communication skills or what the deal is. I feel like I wrote my post in English, you responded in English but it is almost like I asked you to pick up milk at the store and you come home with bread. Nothing is wrong with getting bread but it was not what I needed or asked you to get. Most of me thinks you are incapable of getting what I need and I just need to give it up, lol. I have no idea how to take most of what you said.

I felt like throwing out some thoughts and experiences regarding cults and abuse. Apparently I had a lot to say on the subject. lol. I would appreciate it if from here on is not quoted in case I become chicken and want to erase my story. I am open to all thoughts and responses but I do not know yet how I will feel with this out there, I have to see ;p The cult I was involved in was called Straight Inc. I am not going to link it but googling Straight Inc. should be fine or that plus "drug rehab". I was there from the ages of 16 to nearly 18. One of the responses made me think of this video. I do not feel like scrolling back to look for it to see who specifically and it does not matter really. In general, if you are in the habit of putting a silver lining on things and responding with "At least..." when someone shares something sensitive with you, you might consider this viewpoint. Not that I am any good at with myself but it is something to think about when responding to others I think. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Evwgu369Jw About people equating one swat with abuse- it has clearly hit a nerve with me and then I kind of go off not talking to you personally but in general. I am sorry if it becomes confusing- I do not believe that is a real thing to be concerned about and this kind of discussion has only ever added to my confusion when trying to determine if my experiences were my fault or if it was abuse. And if it was abuse, was it "bad enough" for me to be upset about? Just then- at the time of the incident, or is it acceptable a month after? Or still? For how long? Who is calling a swat abuse- the Single Swatter or the Once Swatted? And why do you think they are doing it? What is the point of such a declaration as you understand it? I would like to understand what you or anyone else means with this especially after you read all my thoughts if you have the time and opportunity- I can not think of an example of a time a SIngle Swatter be abusive other than being too hard on herself or something which is irrelevant to this topic. I can think of a few times in my life where I have been thrown what I guess would be a "I was Once Swatted" story- Once I shared something, and the person said she could understand bc- and basically compared a swat to my traumatic experience- -I could feel the expression on my face change, I couldn't help it!--- lol--- I was appalled, I am not going to lie- I said, with raised eyebrows " are you comparing *this traumatic experience I just related* with *something that small*? Am I hearing that correctly?" (all I could think was surely I am not, but at the same time I have never known myself to have actual real auditory hallucinations) and she explained and we talked but the feeling I got when I left that conversation was she was trying to say the right thing and it was coming out wrong. Or it was possible my filter was off. Whichever the case, the conclusion I came to was she was not someone I need to share my story with at this point, she couldn't handle the truth ( I love that line, lol) or I could not hear her response... but whatever, whichever, Not a good idea. I am very aware that people will not understand me, I am different from the rest of the world, they will roll their eyes and say I had it coming, it was not "bad enough" to be labeled "abuse". The only people who can understand me are the ones in the same cult as I was. I was told that a lot and for a long time I believed it fully and completely. There have been times in my life where I guess I did the Single Swat thing, as in refer to a single swat -or minimize my experiences- as abuse: me: I do not like it here, it is abusive. there are too many rules and they yell at you. other person: you need to do what they are saying. Buck Up. Me: but. they make you sit up. other person: so then sit up. She did not say Big Deal... lol.... but I think she might have been thinking it. She certainly acted like it. Who has not been yelled at? And I can see the point... she was right, follow the rules, can't you do that? I usually feel like I can always strive harder and try more..... most people do, right? See, I was not sure....there was a part of me that thought... I deserve everything that is happening, and then sometimes there is a part that thought....uh, this is (or later was) insane.....so sometimes I was throwing out a little thing, some experience that did not matter much or the beginning of the experience, to see what happened. I wouldn't care and neither would you about this little thing. But I could see if you throw it out completely or squash it or ask more about it or..... and sometimes it was like I knew I did not really deserve protection but I am kinda hoping maybe that other person would not know just how bad I was and they seemed nice enough and so maybe they would just act on that/respond as if?....(lol, i do not know, cults suck, abuse sucks ).. But if I minimize it from the get go, I could be ready either way. I can see now how saying "they make you sit up" is one of those "you had to be there" kind of things. Or---- maybe you totally saw this one coming but by "have to" I meant: (and I am putting a trigger warning here just in case not implying you would define this as bad enough to be triggering or anything like that) --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- they take their fists and shove them down your back and then pull your shoulders back so you are sitting up straight in the chair. They walk down the aisle and do that to each of us in between the group sessions. YOu have to put your hands on your knees and if they stray, the person next to you will put them on your knee for you. They will sit you up if you slouch. Your feet must be flat on the floor. You have to look at whoever is talking and if you do not, they will make you. They will turn your head and hold it in place. They will do the same if you are trying not to sit still (like jiggle your leg). One person on each leg and arm, one person on your back. See? You have to sit up. If they call on you, you have to stand up. They will make you. There are hundreds of people in the group. If they want to confront you, you have to listen. They have no problem (to use a more recent term) 'invading your personal space', but their name for it was called spit therapy, and if you try to wipe their spit off your face, they will hold your arms down by your side. If you try to turn away while they are yelling, they will force your head in their direction. You. Have. To. They put people next to you who are told to nit pick you. They pick at you, sitting you up straighter, legs exactly in the right place, arms perfect and since technically you are expected to submit fully by not flinching but eventually you become so angry or tired of it because you know it will not stop so you jerk away or you hit them even (and if you are wondering that is what they told your parents, you became violent and resisted so they had to restrain you) and then they will throw you to the ground and put your hands behind your back like on cop shows and do the same for your legs so you are hog tied but held down by people.........and you will be restrained for as long as it takes until you stop screaming and yelling and sobbing and fighting. They will not let your hair hide your face. They will let you up when you are still and quiet and it does not matter how long that takes. If you go limp while they are throwing you down, it hurts less and you are restrained for less time and there are less bruises. Once you are still and not crying, then you can sit up and go back to the chair and start it all again. Sometimes they will say ok leave her alone now. Sometimes not. All day. We got there after breakfast and left before dinner. But the person I was trying to tell did not get to hear all that because I stopped at "you have to sit up" since her attitude was well why don't you just do what they want you to do? ANd she was right. Why didn't I do what they wanted me to? Is that what you are wondering too: WHy didn't you just sit up? I worry what people think of me after reading that. I used to wonder that too but- ---*sigh* ----- Because of the first part, there are too many rules. Because I couldnt. Because no one can be that perfect. You would have messed it up too. I know it. Imagine - all day long the above mentioned..... plus the other rules -when you went anywhere you had to be held by the belt loop on your jeans no matter where you were going -even the bathroom-, you were never left unaware, you were not allowed to talk to the other newcomers,you had to ask to pick up every item you used--like your toothbrush and your bra and the toilet paper and your fork- you had to get honest with impure thoughts which included thoughts of boys, girls, touching yourself...anything related to your sexuality, you were not allowed to read so this includes anything --labels and signs in addition to books and magazines, no music, no looking at the guys side, no tv, no make up, no belts, no jewlery,no phones, no unapproved people, no school, no talking out,....... the list is too ridiculous. Anyway, the point is -it was too hard sometimes, to follow all the rules. And I was 16. And if you did something wrong, they yelled at you. All the time. They yelled at people all day. For accidents even. I do not even feel like typing out the vitriol that came out of their mouths. They called us sick and twisted, whores, druggie, lazy, selfish, lonely, pathetic, stupid...... ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Untrigger- SO - in that instance my tossing out a "swat" was an ineffective method of asking for help. The person listening could have been more helpful by being open to hearing what I was talking about instead of immediately dismissing it as trivial. I think that is probably true for anyone in an abusive situation regardless of age. It is a Big Deal to try and say "hey, i think this might be wrong here......" I am minimizing it because I am worried you think that is what I deserve too. Also I think sometimes I was trying to say----here is the overall picture -I was abused. Please respond to what I am saying with this fact in mind. Here is a small part of that over all picture and- I know it may seem stupid to you but.... how about you just ....buck up..... try and be patient and show some kindness........ give me some space and a chance. I have to start somewhere. I am not sure who to trust. I have been betrayed by all kinds of people, people who have told me they loved me and have done wonderful things for me. But they also tortured me. And I am not exaggerating there either- I am redefining terms as an act that I survived but is defined as torture at Guantanamo Bay (iow, trained soldiers endured what I did as a teenager. I am a complete badass right? :lol:). Cults have *brainwashing*. It can get confusing. I dont know if this is making any sense at all. ok now some more general thoughts not specific to the quote I have forgotten the other post but someone mentioned shelters as being an option people use all the time and I was thinking- When you say people leave abusive situations every day, I feel grateful for the help offered them, hopeful for the family, but not at all empowered or sure how it is relevant to me personally even when I would have needed it, lol. I do not think I would ever understand why you are bringing it up to me unless I ask specifically for the resource. Or you said specifically "you need to go here because you are in danger". My powers of delusion are amazing. I am beginning to think it is like my super power. But why it is not helpful- For one, I did not see it as abuse at the time. It was my fault. If I had not done X, then Y woudl not have happened. Also, it was what everyone I was surrounded by was doing. It was almost as ridiculous to me at the time as someone calling homeschool "abuse" would be to you now. For real. That is kinda nuts right? But that was my normal, a lot of it openly sanctioned by my parents, people who love me and are supposed to protect me. SO if it is ok with them......Also, I was different from other people. Being treated badly was good for me, something no one other than people in my cult would or could understand. When social services came in and investigated this place, I lied because I knew they couldn't understand. (side note: Not everyone lied, my friend who was always telling me this is wrong, see? it says right here (in the AA literature) we are supposed to have compassion! so when they came and asked her she said she told every single thing and even got down and showed them how a restraint worked, dont you just love her bravery and honesty? SHe was a baby! like 14 or 15 maybe and had been there for a couple years, but because of at least her and one other girl, they graduated a bunch of us (me included!) and moved the rest to a location in a nearby state thereby closing the program in this state). I think that was one of my attractions to my husband- he was a graduate of the program, a senior staff member, one of the head mother fuckers in charge- someone who knew and understood without being told what *I* needed. Someone who had already hurt me deeply. I have not eaten in days worrying about what that means as far as my decision making skills and why it has taken me this long to figure this out. Good god. We have children together. I do not need reminding that at 23 I was making my own choices. I already know that. ----- I totally face palmed myself too. :closedeyes: I appreciate those who said they could see how hard it is....or can see why it was..... So of course those woman in the shelter did not deserve it, none of them do but......what's that got to do with me? Do you know it has taken me until just recently to fully grasp what people mean when they say 'it is not your fault'? And to be honest I haven't been able to say it out loud yet. But- get this, it totally blew my mind anyway - that means nothing I did caused what happened to me...nothing....not.one.thing. That means I did not deserve it - maybe I deserve exactly what everyone else has. Maybe my feelings are just as important as anyone else walking on this earth. That is kinda ridiculous. I know. I am not a moron. I graduated with a 3.9 GPA. ANd that was after basically a tenth grade education because of the years I spent in the cult and then the last year I was in high school I could not stand to be anywhere inside for too long so I was constantly skipping school.... lol. So I am not an idiot. And I had a profession before I began homeschooling my children. And you read the little bit I just shared, the part that is common knowledge - and I explained about the swat thing so you know there is more, much much more which means you know I have been through some things and I am here on these boards so I have a life, a good one. I am not a wimp; I do not take things lying down. I am a fighter. But somehow....here I am. So maybe not. I don't know. In each case, I could see how there was something I did, some place where ------like in the example above- why didn't I just sit up? why didn't I.....?..... It is hard not to doubt yourself.......don't you doubt yourself about stuff?....ever? ANd so imagine being surrounded by someone (or a lot of someones) who are always telling you you suck -and magnifying every little mistake you ever made over and over and over again and you are really having to degrade yourself before you feel the teensiest, slightest bit of relief like oh ok I did this one thing right....shew. see. there is hope. I am not complete slime. So that might be another reason why people say yes even the swat, ok, even the swat, you did not deserve. Nothing. Not a bit. Because really why is it coming up--- except for the things I mentioned, a misunderstanding or an introduction into a hard to tell story. When I have struggled with where do I draw the line - what was abuse, what was not abuse- in my own experience with the cult there is one story that may be helpful in maybe understanding my view. so: another trigger thing ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I went through a period where I was feeling suicidal and got through it - All good now- BUT I was talking to my therapist and I was trying to explain that it was really hard for me to go to her with those thoughts even though I have known her for a long time. I knew logically she was not going to be mean, she wants to help me and has shown this - I *know* this- but at the same time I could remember how I vowed to never tell anyone if I ever felt like that- I was completely baffled on why he told - he has been here long enough to know this was not going to end well. And it did not. They laughed at him. They ridiculed him. They put him on suicide watch so he had to wake up every few hours, sleep for a few, wake for a few. The people watching him could not sleep so neither could he. We were already really tired all the time. They sang - i don't know if anyone remembers the tasty cake song where "nobody bakes a cake as tasty as a tasty cake".....because he looks normal on the outside but really is soft and mushy and disgusting on the inside, he was weak to think of suicide, they made him sit in front of everyone with a dunce cap on his head because the only reason he told anyone was he wanted attention. So attention is what he should get. He was not really suicidal because a really suicidal person would be dead, he just wanted attention. You can not stop someone from killing themselves after all. And I was trying to tell my therapist that the reason I was scared or nervous was because I was not sure really what kind of response to expect at the time ---I got that the one I saw was over the top, no one was going to put a dunce cap on me for instance but ...where what was the line?.....when I tell someone I feel so worthless I am not sure I should be alive anymore, like maybe it is better for those I love that I am not here - ok - so they won't sing songs or deprive me of sleep. that was clearly ineffective..... but- will they laugh? Roll their eyes? Will they think I just want attention? Do I want attention? Will they think I am disgusting? Are they just being nice but really thinking some of (all of) those things in their head? And so sometimes it just seemed easier to not take the risk that they might be thinking any of that crap since I feel bad enough already- who needs to worry about that on top of how crummy I am already feeling? ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ok I think I am done again- lol No more trigger Anyway- her response to "where do you draw the line on what was wrong and what was not" was basically anything associated with that place at all ever was wrong period full stop. And I said but well- (for instance) the swat? yes. But- yes. It does not matter. And honestly it does make it easier to distinguish Things That Should Happen To Me vs Things That Should Not Happen To Me. Because as you see, I am still trying to figure out where the lines are. And it isnt going to occur to most people to reassure me that the things I am worried about will not happen- they are so just weird and stupid. WHo behaves that way? WHo thinks that way? Who says those things? Gross right? But still, it did happen and even weirder, dumber things too. So it has been helpful to assume no one normal and nice will behave the way I was treated there. Everything there was wrong. All of it. Even that swat. I like thinking that way, lol. It feels like a relief in a way. Why is it bad? While reading this thread I can catch myself minimizing my own experience. I spent two years having my will broken down. Those poor people went through it for life. I can't imagine. What am I complaining about? People are probably thinking I am such a whiner. Can you imagine those poor babies who had to grow up submitting like that their whole lives? At least mine was not that bad. See? I do it to myself! I do not need any help! I doubt my own self- I am good, I got that part. I can be critical and minimize my experiences with the best of them. And since I am Regular Person and no one special I have to assume other people who have been humiliated and degraded the way I have also have some of the same thoughts and fears. I want to be open to hearing your experiences and thoughts but it does also feel like if you have never felt that unsure of yourself, if you have never felt that ......subhuman.....if you have no clue what it is like to be treated in a way I described or have never had to earn the right to do basic things like pick things up without asking, earn the right to walk about freely, things that I imagine came as a surprise to at least some people that anyone would be sick and strange enough to think of as something a person should earn and not just something to take for granted, and yet somehow there was quite a few of these as treatment centers for children, teenagers. It was a chain. So you might ....stop talking and start listening to those people who have been through it and have felt that way. You could start there because they are telling you what would have been or has been helpful and what is or was not helpful, you know? You can of course take it or leave it and if you become more interested you could actually read something and research the topic. I thank everyone who has acknowledge that it is hard, the whole abuse cult thing. It helps me feel less stupid and weak.

Did you get a chance to talk to your person yet? :grouphug: I had to call a lot the first time. I just went with the assumption that he was not getting my messages and kept calling until he talked to me since no one could confirm or deny anything. I was frantic inside but calm and polite and all. I am sure the people were like "dude seriously this woman has called like a hundred times, please just talk to her. please." :lol: My family member can be paranoid and psychotic so you can not take much personally. Also, I was frantic. Also, every minute felt like an hour. I guess it depends but at this place, once we talked, he gave me a code so I could just call straight through to him and if he was not busy he could talk whenever. He was on the adult locked floor. They did not have specific phone times but they were very strict about when to visit. Like an hour a day and because it was a locked floor you could not bring anything in that was not first approved. Also, you can not overwhelm the patients with too much support so only 2 people could go back at a time. We had to switch out. He signed a release so I could talk to his treatment team - it was just hard to figure out if the man who is telling me about the four horsemen nad how electronics have the devil in them is right when he says he has been there for this long and still not seen a psychiatrist or therapist or just confused about his timeline. But I was not trying to get in his business or anything. So sorry op :grouphug:

So your sister sent a text that said "if you bring Grandson a present at this bday party then when these other kids have bdays you have to bring a present for them too" And your mom said "No, actually, if that is the case then no one gets a present from me. And also I am not coming to the party. Since that is what you want." And now you are wondering if you "can" bring the kid a gift? Of course you can. ..duh. Are you kidding? If I got that text I would have said "ok, cool. Can we go shopping together because I have no clue what to get. Dinner on me. Sound good? Can't wait to give Grandson present! I got a good one! *stupid smiley thing* I mean- Why did your mom respond the way she did? Am I missing something? They live in the same city? That could be like a fun get together- win/win? Are you sure your sister was/is mad at your mom or was she just --heads up! kids ( ? or someone ?) has caught on to what is going on here. Coming over here with ponies and rainbows will be noted by all eyes..lol. ANd that makes sense to you right? Can your mom see that? You can't really go back to cards without someone noticing, can you? Most likely Grandson himself and then his grandmother looks like a jerk treating his siblings differently than him (ask me how I know that one..ugh). If I am understnading correctly, they have been together over a year. You and your mom need to get with it (gently). Even if you only visit a couple times a year, don't you guys talk? It makes me sad for your sister that she went through all that leads up to a divorce without the support of her family. ETA: well what I imagine to lead up to a divorce. I am a child of divorce and since your sister is one also I think it must mean she knew at least some of the consequences of the choices she was making. It must have been worth it. It makes me wonder what was going on. It could be she is a nutball but you thought you had a good relationship before so to me she sounds like she did not want to put you in the middle during your last visit and prior to that she did not feel comfortable enough to share a really big life change with you. To me, it sounds like you do not know her very well. :crying: That would bother me and I would worry she had the wrong idea about me or something. But you might not feel that way. Is your mom really refusing to buy these other kids birthday presents? How on earth is she finding that attitude helpful? Maybe I am reading that wrong? If not- :lol: :leaving: I might change my vacation plans. 70th birthday party indeed. kidding. But...... is that what she is saying?

I am sorry you went through all that :grouphug:

:grouphug: Thinking of you this morning and hoping that viewing goes well!

Mine was appendicitis. Hope you feel better :grouphug:

Well , my first thought was......if your anxiety shoots through the roof again you can let it go to voicemail, take a pill, and call them back when you are ready right? Chemistry for the win! Good luck! :grouphug: I can get the same way. I am forever talking myself into things.

I'm sorry :grouphug: but I am glad you were able to celebrate him. My dad was killed in Dec 2014. He would be 70. I miss him too.

Well but the joke's not funny. When I was in elementary school I loved school, I took it seriously :001_tt1: I think it was kind of an escape from home. I always did my homework, paid attention, etc. I was not the type of kid to cause trouble iow. The only times I can remember missing school was when we had lice and when my dad would come over so drunk and volatile that we would have to leave for the night. We did not get sick often. My parents were divorced so no one had time for that :) At some point my babysitter molested me. My mother walked in on a minor but still concerning incident and said I should not do things like that and I needed to be a better example to my sister. I was embarrassed and never told her about any of the other stuff going on. I am just explaining my mindset a little bc in the 5th grade (11 yo about) we moved and a group of boys had that same MO you are describing. They would walk by in a big group and grab or pinch my rear. I never knew what to do. Often I did not know who it was anyway. I think it triggered like a shame cycle or something. I froze. I thought it was my fault, that I was like a magnet or something for this kind of crap. I had no idea that grabbing butts was a normal thing, or funny, or whatver else you want to call it. It did not feel that way to me, I just felt embarrassed. They figured out how to get at me from my desk and that I was not going to tell so then it really was always. I was pretty miserable and it got to the point where I could not have people walk behind me without flinching. Then they made fun of me for that. I guess it does look odd, that exaggerated startle reflex. Whenever I think of "steeling myself" I remember how I felt trying to stop myself from jumping just because someone was walking behind me. :glare: It never occurred to me they could have been playing a game until this thread. Jesus. I suppose it is possible that it was a kind of class game. What a gross one though. FF to the next year, I had a new teacher and I think she smelled a rat early on bc she moved my desk right next to her's and put a girl behind me. Good ole Mrs. S. :001_tt1: My year was much better and I had no issues and school was back to being a cool place. SHe had better control of the class and I am sure that helped. At the end of the year, a different boy not in this group grabbed my butt and I seriously burst into tears and could not stop sobbing. I was inconsolable and mortified at my reaction (I hated to stand out) and that people knew. But I thought it was going to happen all over again :sad: I am not saying these boys grew up to be in jail or perverts. I do not think that time period was life changing for me or anything like that - I have experienced worse. But it does seem so unnecessary. And for a long time it was hard for me to look back on that time period without feeling ashamed that I let them do all that just like with the babysitter you know? And frustrated on why I didnt say anything ever. But too I was only 11 and really did not know how to deal with all that. The video says the game at this girls' school is to grab strangers in the hallway and watch their reaction. I can imagine what mine would have been. I would have loved to see it as a harmless joke! It is easy to say that but how was I supposed to do that? And why? So they (or it sounds like you) could have their fun? That is where I get cranky about it. I mean, it is a simple thing to say keep the butt grabbing out of class. Grab all the butts you want outside of school. Leave people alone you dont know well enough to invite home <_< I did not ask to have that reaction every time someone grabbed me but I also cant imagine that I am the only kid who ever felt that way. I am nobody special, just a regular person. WoolySocks, on 25 Mar 2016 - 2:02 PM, said: .......... But I'm also in favor of schools and parents sending strong messages about individuals having autonomy in regards to their own bodies, in particular a personal part of their body. ......... I think this would have been a better lesson for us all than the intention thing you mentioned earlier honestly. The intention thing sounds more like you are saying "I want to do what I want to do and so sorry you feel bad about it but that is on you, I can't control how you react to my fun. " which sounds ....unkind. I was a kid too and really did not need that. I am baffled that you would think it was ok, normal, or fun for kids to behave that way still, as an adult. On the surface calling the police seems off the hook to me. It was the mother that wanted it; the school had suspended the girl so that sounds like they were dealing with it at least on a punishment level. SOmeone mentioned the school to prison pipeline and it does remind me of that. I watched the video and neither the girl or dad seem to think it was a big deal. I can see wanting them to get that if it was my kid they were bothering. I hope her diversion program includes something about respecting other people.

I am so sorry :grouphug:

Did this man stay at your house after your ds told you what happened? Why did you allow that? It sounds like this happened right under your nose already once so you were putting all your children at risk. I do not get why you would do that.

I will have to check a few of these out! Mine likes Stan Lee's Superhumans and Brain Games.

Thank you for sharing that :grouphug: I am really sorry :grouphug:

:grouphug:

I find it shocking also- I am so sorry.

:grouphug: I am so sorry for your loss

The author wrote a follow up. His comments made me lol- it was like a mini well trained mind thread. I have found everyone's stories and perspectives interesting and helpful. Thank you! http://mustbethistalltoride.com/

I saw your updaate that you called and she yelled at you but I have not seen if the family actually got any heat? Any news on that? It is cold to me! And I remember not having heat as a child- it looms large in my mind anyway whether it was life and death or just plain old uncomfortable. I still remember little ice cube fish in the fish tank. It was cold! And we had a woodstve we used to heat the house but also to cook on and heat water. I wondered that when you said they were dirty- do they have anything to heat water up for baths. We lived in the south so I doubt it got mortal danger type stuff but it was no picnic either. Just thinking about them. :grouphug: