My understanding is that it was agreed that he could stay for a few weeks/months, and everybody would have been OK with him using the facilities in the house for that time. However, after 18 months, drug issues, and friends that concern them, they are not OK with all of that happening in the house. I can understand that - I would not be Ok with somebody who is on drugs coming in and out of my house while I sleep even though I am generally happy to host people for weeks at a time. it seems like there are 2 different issues, both of which could concern them. Agreeing to let somebody stay with you temporarily often does not mean that you'd be Ok with the arrangement for more than a year. And, agreeing to let somebody stay on your property when sober doesn't mean that you are OK with it if they are using drugs. Our church has a large (150-200 people/week) addiction recovery program. I'm not closely affiliated with it, but we sometimes hear stories from people who are being helped. One of the recurring themes is that as long as their basic needs are taken care of there isn't much incentive to change. Sometimes even when they don't have housing or income, it still isn't enough, but many of them seem to need to absolutely have to make a change before they do, and nobody can make the change for them. The autism complicates things like holding down a job, but until the addiction is dealt with I don't think there is much that can be done as far as autism supports. We know a young adult who is on the spectrum and gets a lot of support, but progress is only made because he is willing to take the advice that he is given. If addiction is part of what prevents this adult from doing that, then it may be that it has to be dealt with first. Unfortunately, recovery isn't something that others can do for him.

When my kid prepped for the AP Calc BC exam, we saw that a graphing calculator was on the 'stuff to bring' list. We bought one, but kid had never used one before that. AoPS doesn't require one to work through their books and kid had used that program for much of high school math. So, we went out and got one and kid figured out how to use it. After taking the test, kid said that there was really no need for a calculator if you knew how to math. 🙂 There may have been some arithmetic done on one, but nothing that required graphing. I have my frustrations with AoPS, but I did appreciate that they gave answers in messy forms so that kids didn't get into the habit of punching in everything so that they got answers with decimals with no idea how they got it.

I had a class like that, too, but they gave partial credit. It varies between schools and disciplines, but in my classes and those of most people I know classes tended to be either test with a few problems where partial credit was given or tests with a decent number of questions but no partial credit (often because it was a big class with multiple choice). It was pretty unusual for an intro class to have only 4 questions with no partial credit on a test. But, it was all made more frustrating by the fact that students were teaching themselves with little feedback other than whether their auto-graded homework was right or wrong. You got 3 shots at each homework question, but if you didn't get it in 3 then you didn't get credit and also didn't get an explanation. And there was the test where I'm guessing the program chose questions from a test bank and included a question that wasn't part of the assigned material. This is one of the few issues that the instructor responded to promptly. Then there was the homework (not worth much, but every point counts) that the instructor accidentally had due in a different time zone, so that when students submitted it at 11:01 pm it was scored as late and no credit despite being an hour before the usual due date. Kid emailed the instructor with a time stamped homework but it wasn't changed. I'm not terribly sympathetic to kids complaining about tech glitches, but having one assignment set to a different time zone than everything else for the semester seems like an instructor mistake, not something that students should be expecting It was a situation where no one thing was a huge deal, but it seemed like every glitch penalized the students - when I teach, I try to avoid that.

My older has taken 6 DE classes from 2 CCs and found that variation is huge. 5 of the classes were online due to scheduling difficulty, and even within that group the experience is not the same. In the humanities classes, kid's biggest complaint is that the classes seemed designed to encourage cheating. Texts were online, so it was simple to search the text while taking a quiz if one was inclined to do so. I know that one can do that with a book, but it's easier to copy the unknown term to the search bar than it is to scan 100 pages of textbook. Kid thought 2 of the 3 humanities classes were reasonably OK, and it's hard to say otherwise - Psych 101 is pretty easy at most schools. There was some complaint about a British Lit class - they were assigned a specific version of the text, but the quiz questions sometimes came from online quiz sources that used different versions or translations, such that the term or description wasn't present in the assigned version of the text. Although there were a few deadline issues, it was mostly OK and of the sort that is easy to work with - forgetting to post an assignment, so allowing a few extra days to finish. The online physics and calc 3 were a real challenge. I had worried about the physics lab, but that was actually reasonably done - dropping items or rolling them down inclines can be done at home and is on par with what I remember doing as a student. But, these classes involved a ton of self-teaching, with no book or video lecture (there were little snippet lectures linked to certain homework problems, which could help but gave no context or big picture). The calc class was reasonable, with quick responses from the managing instructor (the course itself was part of a state-wide ecampus program). The midterm and final were taken at the campus testing center. The physics was a real challenge. There was minimal feedback - you could see your grade, but had to ask to even find out what problems you missed on tests. There was no partial credit - on one test kid miscalculated the first part of a problem and subsequently missed the next 2 subparts (done correctly, but using the wrong answer from part 1), so earned a 75%. Despite earning As on every other assignment and test, kid went into the final knowing that if a single question was missed kid would likely earn a B in the class. Kid was incredibly relieved to earn an A, but it seemed absurd that missing 2 questions in a semester (in which there were multiple tests) would be enough to pull your grade to a B. We did think it was good that the homework was self-checking and you had multiple tries to get each question right - it encouraged students to work until they could do most of it. After that, kid decided to take the next physics class in person. Kid has found it to be very well done - much easier and less stress, but mostly because there is actual teaching and ability to ask questions. The instructor has had to make changes to the schedule and syllabus - there was a week of snow closure, and also an event on campus that caused classes to be canceled. It's been handled in a very reasonable way, with some of the lab time being diverted to working problem sets and taking tests, and 2 short labs being done in one lab session. It's all been clearly communicated. The only complaint is that some work isn't graded promptly. There are big problems with unprepared students in classes. My kid has been amazed that in easy classes assignments like 'make a discussion post on the topic, 2 paragraphs of at least 4 sentences each' lead to students writing 1 paragraph, or 2 paragraphs of 2 sentences each, or posts on the wrong topic. But, there are also issues with too much self-teaching being required. My younger kid has taken a couple of Derek Owens math classes, which are online, but involve teaching and reasonably prompt feedback on your work. I recommend those classes to others looking for solid math instruction. I would never recommend that anybody take the online math and physics classes at the CC. I would recommend the in-person class, and would say that, at least for the classes that my kid took, the online humanities was fine - nothing spectacular, but 2 were 100-level classes, and those are usually pretty generic and easy no matter where you take them.

I'm kind of flummoxed by how much drama this thread has stirred up. There are a lot of things that I do and say 'I'm glad I saw that, but I don't have to do it again'. Eclipses fall into that category. That's kind of how I interpreted the title - are there other people who don't find the eclipse to be life-changing? And, I'm guessing there are a decent number who would say 'Yes!'. We were in the totality last time, so it's not like we didn't have the big experience that people are talking about. Even having seen that and thinking it was interesting, I wouldn't go much out of my way to do it again. If it were directly in my yard, sure, and if friends made a fun thing of it then maybe. And for something less than 100%? I probably wouldn't do anything. It's not that we are anti-education or anti-science - spouse and I are both STEM PhDs who have taken the kids to museums and national parks in several states and planned whole trips around it. I understand how much people are fascinated by the eclipse. But, it doesn't crack the top 5 and maybe not the top 20 in terms of 'science things that I found to be really interesting to see in person'. That's not to say that it doesn't fall into that category for other people, but given the choice there are many natural things that I enjoy more. When you get down to it, the amazingness of seeds turning into plants turning into food probably captures my imagination more, and I see it repeatedly every year. We're just wired differently, and that's OK. I wouldn't think twice of somebody posting 'I just don't get why people love gardening!' as a thread, and I know that even if I tried to explain how it feels like a miracle every time I go pick something, if you don't already see it that way I probably couldn't make it make sense.

This is likely field-dependent, but both spouse and I have PhDs without earning a masters of any kind. In our fields, direct entry into PhD programs was common 25 years ago when we did it.

That was mostly not the case here last time. While I wouldn't travel far to see one again, there were more things to see than I expected and it was surreal listening to nature get quiet as if it were night...definitely more than 2 minutes worth of stuff to observe, especially if you had to get kids situated.

It's not really my thing, but the last eclipse was right over us so we went to a party with other families to see it. It was cooler than I thought it would be. But, not so interesting that I'd fly somewhere to see another one. I'd probably be game to drive an hour with friends or something, but not a big road trip with upcharged hotel rates.

In the common app, students enter an email address for the teacher and then the recommender is sent a link. The most recent scholarship recs that I wrote were also submitted directly to the organization or school after I was sent a link. It's pretty rare to give something directly to a student - I did that for a summer job rec recently. I think there was one college a few years ago where a student asked for a rec to be given to the student, but I asked for a link to the school and was able to send it directly there.

I don't have advice, but I don't do well with chronic complaining, either. I do have some anecdotes that shape my thinking - they may or may not be helpful. When I was a teen, I went to a summer music camp and a group of us had an early class. We were complaining, as teens do, and somebody asked the teacher why he was so upbeat. He replied that his job was to be there and teach at 8 am, so he could do it happily or unhappily, but either way he'd be doing it, so he'd prefer to be happy. It was such a small, offhand comment, but it caused a major attitude shift for me. I've read a couple of books about the brain and learning in the course of teaching and learning about memory, and how we reinforce memories by repeating them - it's why studying the same material daily for a week helps you to remember it. So, any negative thought that you repeat over and over becomes more automatically remembered. That was a wake-up call for my class - who wants to program themselves to automatically think negative thoughts? I've got a kid who almost never complains about anything. This kid isn't complacent, and isn't relentlessly upbeat by nature, but doesn't say negative things very often. When I asked, kid said 'I don't like to listen to other people complain, so I don't think that anybody wants to listen to me complain, either.' Kid will share frustrations about things, but that's not really the same as a general attitude of complaint. I do think it's helpful to separate complaining from positivity - you don't have to be positive to not make negative comments. Some people are wired to be upbeat in the face of problems, and despite some people calling it fake or toxic, it really is how they are wired. Likewise, some people always see potential problems or what can go wrong. There's a place for both. But there are also people who complain or make negative comments out of habit...and it's not helpful. And there are those who complain about everything that they don't understand - with those, I sometimes ask 'How would you handle that?' or something similar, because sometimes people don't have a better idea, they are just annoyed by how something affects them. Which I understand, but we are all dealing with things that inconvenience us. Sometimes the complaining is self-centered, and while I can laugh at the occasional self-aware 'Why can't everybody just get out of my way - don't they know I have places to be?' I can get frustrated with people who think that the world would be better if everything was just adjusted to their preferences and priorities since there are always competing interests. When my kids were little, I used to tell them that I wasn't a complaints department so I wanted them to suggest solutions. It was fine to share frustrating or upsetting situations, but for general issues like It's too hot, I'm so tired, Sally is mean, etc, I told them that either something bothered them enough to suggest a change that we could implement, or it wasn't a big enough problem to warrant a lot of complaining. I have also seen chronic complaining and negativity become toxic in an organization. When every suggestion is met with 'that won't work/that's a dumb idea' instead of 'lets see if we can implement/modify/troubleshoot that' people quit trying to help...and then the complainer, stuck with all of the work, complains even more. I think it probably does the same thing in other situations, but this was so dramatic that I doubt I'll ever forget how bad it can get if the negativity becomes directed at other people and their ideas rather than just life in general. And, unfortunately, if a habit of complaining about life becomes too ingrained, I don't know that people realize when they are crossing the line and complaining about other people in a harmful way.

If your son has actually expressed any interest in this as a career and seems influenced by the ad, I'd take the opposite approach - I'd explore it. I do this with all sorts of things with my kids to help them understand aspects of jobs and activities that a kid wouldn't consider. Would you like being on your own away from home for weeks at a time, and how would being on the road affect relationships, hobbies, etc? Do you want a job with a lot of solitude or would you rather be around people during the day? How would you feel about sleeping in the sleeper compartment of a truck instead of being home with your family? Is this a skill that you can acquire and use locally? Etc. And then I'd say that we should revisit this particular job once kid can drive, because at that point he'll know if he likes driving long distances - some people do, others find it stressful. We also discuss the fact that we do not eliminate entire career paths due to lack of a standard education because interests change and life happens. If one develops vision problems or back pain, then they might not be able to be a truck driver, for instance. A relative was diagnosed with a low blood pressure/stress problem and had to give up a career as an air traffic controller because, obviously, staying conscious is a big deal in that field. So, the job of kids is to learn and equip themselves to be able to take advantage of whatever opportunity makes sense when they are at an age to choose. I think this is mostly an issue because of other family conflict. Otherwise, in many families, it wouldn't be too strange to send a kid a text with something about a career they'd expressed interest in. I had an aunt who was a dentist, and when I expressed interest in that as a kid she shared info about her work and schooling. I ultimately didn't go that route, but she gave advice forever, much of which I ignored because it wasn't helpful for what I ultimately decided to do.

For us, I don't think it's possible to compare costs. Some things might be the same - I'd probably pack lunches for my kids to take to school, and the lunches might be similar in cost to what we eat at home. We would probably drive far less. My kids do several extracurriculars that wouldn't all be possible at school because all of the practices couldn't fit after school. Practices for their extracurriculars would all be at the school, which is convenient, instead of scattered across town in whatever church is letting the homeschool group use their facility to practice. I pay for co-op classes, but I make enough with my teaching to cover education expenses (materials for home-based classes and outsourced classes). I might have been working a normal job during this time, but since our plan is for me to up my volunteer game after the kids are out of the house it's also possible that I would have been the unpaid PTA/homeroom mom during my kids' school years. Clothing costs are likely lower, as is the cost of school supplies. I have not had to do last-minute dioramas, or scour town for a specific size and color of notebook or folder, and that has been priceless. Homeschooling is definitely less expensive than any private school option, but I can't say for sure how it would compare to public school costs. For us it is definitely about opportunity. The kids have had a deeper education that is individualized. They have gotten to do cool things that they couldn't have done in school - some trips, some activities - and to do more things because they aren't constrained to a school schedule. For years, we've had Science Olympiad practice on Fridays for several months each year, and the kids do their school work on Saturday, or Friday night, or they work ahead. My older did at least 1 credit every summer in high school, and did a heavier load in the fall, to lighten the load for spring when Science Olympiad and sport make things busy. Our homeschooling looks different from some on this board, but it has suited our family.

Some denominations have websites stating their official position ( such as https://www.umc.org/en/content/ask-the-umc-what-is-the-united-methodist-position-on-evolution) so if you check several denominations you will find a range of perspectives. I'm not sure what your religious/denomination background knowledge is, but for some groups (Presbyterians, Baptists) there are several different groups within them that can run the gamut from very conservative to very liberal on a number of issues so you might need to pick several. I appreciate an attempt to look at variation - one of my struggles when teaching evolution has been when people ask 'Are you going to teach the Christian perspective?' and I know that there isn't just one Christian perspective. My students run the gamut.

If its rainy, maybe a stew or chili with bread and a salad?

Does the rest of the family expect that you keep your kids home to protect MIL? I ask because, during Covid as people were making decisions, both sets of grandparents told us to do whatever we thought was best for our kids and they, the grandparents, would adapt as they thought best. They did not want the kids' lives disrupted on their account (if we felt that not doing something was best for the kids, that was fine). I seem to remember you posting about other relatives coming around when they had colds and such, so I'm wondering if you are doing a schooling option that you don't really prefer for your family to work towards a health/safety goal that only you have. In the past few years, I've had 3 people in my orbit go through chemo. One of them stayed home from large gatherings but didn't expect others, even their spouse, to, and the other 2 were living life as normally as possible. One organ transplant recipient teaches classes at our co-op. This isn't a judgement or a statement about what is the 'right' or 'good' choice, but just an observation that it wouldn't be unusual for your MIL and family to not expect you to keep your kids home to avoid germs. Again, homeschooling can be great! Staying home to avoid germs can be a family decision. But, in some ways this feels like you are taking on a lot of burdens - homeschooling, avoiding germs, your daughter's time-consuming activity - that aren't all great fits (by your description) and aren't expected by anybody else. It's possible that I'm misreading this situation, but I know that it can get overwhelming to feel like 'I'm doing all of these things that I don't want to do for everybody else!' when there's no appreciation, and I'm wondering if that's happening because nobody realizes why you are doing these things and would never ask you to.

It's making us nuts because 1-2 of kid's college options choose to offer your complete financial package all at once rather than just informing you about merit awards separately. We are trying to trim the list, and for one of the top choices we have no idea what the merit award will be - $500 is not the same as $15K! They are saying it could be as late as mid-April. Meanwhile, a similar college is already doing housing sign-ups. I'm guessing that people will eliminate one or the other due to the date issues - by not paying the housing deposit and signing up this week, we are ensuring that kid will have to live off-campus, making College B a less attractive option. Other families will go with the school with the known merit package and cut the school that hasn't sent offers yet. In years past, everybody would know all of it by the first week of March and could make their choice and follow the sign-up schedule for the preferred school. What a mess, even for people for whom the FAFSA award itself isn't the needed info.

I would consider either (or both) encouraging him to get a job or volunteer and also consider trying out 1-2 DE classes that aren't related to what he wants to study in college. All of these suggestions are to get him out and around people. With the DE, my thinking is that it doesn't matter whether the classes are great if they aren't foundational for what he actually wants to do. Maybe try a new language, maybe try a psychology class or a non-majors science class. I'd look for back-to-back classes, or classes with only a short gap between so he only has to drive over once/day. For my current senior, taking himself to a DE class and staying for a study group, or hanging out with peers after an activity (usually a sports practice, but something similar could happen with a job) has given him a lot of independence.

Offering more and less challenging programs that geared to each student can be appropriate, but at some point the kids are still going to realize that the younger can help the older with their work. Similar to what 8 has said, I encourage my kids to find things that they will excel at. Music, athletics, art, languages, math, science, literature - there are lots of different things that kids can become good at. One family that we know has one kid who is very academically successful, while another does what they have to do but really likes hands-on work. So, this kid does the required school work and then works some in the family business.

If she has seasonal allergies, it's also possible that something cross-reacted with something that she is already responding to, or that she is responding strongly because her histamine response is already elevated. There are some known ones - cucumber and ragweed, for instance. I have a ton of environmental allergies but didn't test positive for any typical food allergies. But, there are certain foods that make my mouth itchy at certain times of the year. My allergist said it's common. I also often have a response when I eat Indian food - not hives, but many of my typical allergy symptoms. I take benedryl if I need it.

Yep! I was introducing Pomodoros and they said that they could do a days school work with continuous focus. it turns out that they dont have time to read a paragraph or do 3 math problems without interruption.

Locally, kids start staying home between 10-12, depending on the kid and length of time. One of mine would have been able to do school work while home alone. The other might or might not have done anything productive but enjoyed being independent. I did have stretches where I would leave mine home alone but not together due to potential for conflict.

One other challenge for these kiddos is their level of distraction. I taught a study skills class for 8-9th graders. I asked how long they could focus, and many insisted it was over an hour when I suggested studying intently for 20 minutes. When I asked how frequently they were disrupted by a text or notification of some sort, some replied Around 20 times an hour. They didn't feel that they needed to disconnect for bursts to be productive. I can't imagine learning when being interrupted every few minutes. I remember teens insisting that we could study while watching tv, but we learned that we couldn't and turned it off. They never take off their smart watch. The degree of phone attachment and expectations around response times seem to differ significantly between different social groups.

I think it's awful to spend a lot of time teaching young kids about things that they can't do anything to help solve. Lots of people, kids included, face real world stresses that they can't avoid or change (a loved one's illness or death, parental divorce, mistreatment by somebody, not being able to afford what a friend can, being academically behind, or too tall or too short or otherwise looking different from everybody else). We need to help them to deal with that rather than pile more on them. When you are 5 or 8, you can't do anything about pollution or systemic racism. But, you can make your community better by being less wasteful, not taking more than you need, not littering, picking up trash, being a good friend, welcoming a new kid, or some other kid-sized thing. Let them make a difference, and maybe they'll be be able to handle bigger challenges. I have a friend who had her kids at a private school K-8 specifically because they let kids be kids around all sorts of issues. They were aware of them, as were we when I was a kid, but they weren't presented as problems for us to solve, and I think that's a difference. I think that some of the things being discussed - overwhelming kids with adult issues, shooter drills, etc - can be issues on a societal level but I don't think they are what is affecting the kids in my classroom. I'm not even sure they are primary drivers of the lack of 'want to' that I see locally, just knowing the culture. But, I wonder if it's dramatic enough in some environments that it's setting the tone for teens as far as what they see on youtube or wherever they watch content. The stress, or apathy, is setting the tone for what 'normal' is in the same way that Teen magazine used to tell us what to wear. My kid who plays ball on a public school team, one of the motivated seniors that I was talking about, said that after AP exam scores came out and the kids didn't pass, they said that they didn't expect to - they had taken the class first semester on block scheduling, and the teacher didn't do anything to help them refresh second semester. My kid was incredulous - there are free videos on the college board website, and prep books at the library. One other thing that I'm seeing some of is that kids who don't have a ton of life experience are watching videos and then ascribing motives and diagnoses to other people. Their parent or teacher isn't just 'mean' (and by mean I mean saying no in a normal adult way), they are a narcissist. They aren't just upset because a sibling said something mean, they have trauma. Teens tend to be dramatic with emotions, but this vocabulary is causing some kids to take normal frustrations and upsets and believe that horrible things have happened to them. This is not to say that nobody deals with trauma or a narcissist parent, but most kids don't. I don't think that it's helpful for kids to tell themself that upsetting situations that in the past kids would have fretted over and then gotten over are going to cause them life-long trauma. But, they don't have the wisdom and perspective to recognize that the situation is part of normal life, because how could they? I wonder if this framing is causing similar 'under attack' feelings that were being talked about above in the active shooter drills. And, once the adults are framed as unreasonable, there's less incentive to take guidance from them - their suggestion to watch a video or ask for help or use a glossary is part of the same unreasonableness.

Facebook keeps feeding me ads for maternity wear. I'm closing in on 50 and my kids are teens. It's a lot cuter than what was available when I needed maternity wear, but not enticing enough for me to have another kid just to be able to wear it. I also get ads for baby toys. Maybe I watch reels with babies in them? Other than helping in the nursery at church sometimes, I don't have any babies in my orbit right now so it's weird. The ads for lands end or ll bean clothes seem much more appropriately targeted.

I think the struggle that I'm having with this discussion is that the things that I'm talking about are changes over the 12 years that I've taught, not from decades ago, or in a different setting. Some of the students are younger siblings of previous students. Multiple long-time teachers at our co-op are having the same struggles. We are trying to figure out if it's a cohort effect - that this group of students is reinforcing each others' behavior - or if there is some other influence causing it (videos they are sharing, attitudes on a TV show, etc). I have often had students who didn't find particular classes or subjects interesting, and some who didn't like school and focused on art or learning a trade. I've never, until this year, had discussions with students in which they said that they didn't want to have to learn anything and they just wanted to sit around listening to Taylor Swift. Several of the moms have discussed the fact that the kids will come to us and say 'I don't know what 'autosomal' means' and the moms will ask if they've checked their notes, looked in the glossary or index, etc. These are kids who are smart and capable, but they tend to think that if they don't remember it from classroom discussion, then it probably wasn't mentioned. Parents are working on it, but 'I don't know the definition for a vocabulary word' is not the kind of problem that most neurotypical teens need coaching on how to solve, and if so they don't continue to have that struggle all year. It's not learned helplessness and it's not neglect, in that most parents don't indulge it and do coach through it, and the kids ultimately end up doing the work. But, it's a new thing to have happening with more than the occasional student. In the first 3 weeks of class, I answered the question 'Do we need to write this down?' with 'If I write it on the board, it's important enough to write down' multiple times each class, because multiple students thought that they shouldn't have to do that much writing. Several refuse to take notes, taking pictures of the board after I write whatever I'm writing. I have occasionally had a student with a diagnosis of some sort ask to do this, but I wouldn't expect that 1/3 of the class has dyslexia or other issue that makes writing a challenge. Of course, not writing makes it even less likely that they'll remember anything. Even the ballroom dance teacher is seeing changes in student learning and interactions between students - it's not just academic. Meanwhile, this year's soon-to-be graduates and the seniors from last year are almost the opposite. Not everybody - there's variation between students, and teens are teens - but it was much less common for kids to just throw up their hands rather than ask a question or open their book or check out Khan Academy. I have tentatively settled on the idea that group norms are the biggest influence with these kids. I'm struggling to believe that a bunch of homeschooling parents suddenly became neglectful. I know the families enough to know that in some cases other children in the same family have diagnoses (and usually workarounds, medication, or therapy if needed), so I wouldn't expect that neurodivergence is the primary driver of the difference with this group. What it seems like, as somebody who has watched it in my classroom and also who has kids in both of these groups, is that in one group being capable is cool - they happily help each other and will ask for help when needed, but mastering things is important to them, while in the other saying 'It's impossible' is cool. In both groups, being sleep-deprived and being busy are part of the one-upmanship game for some teens, as it has been since I was in high school, so the groups are similar in other ways. So, I read the OP in light of those observations. I think that when I was a student we would have helped a kid who actually struggled to manage their lock, as we did with a couple of kids who had challenges in other areas, but we also would have looked askance at a kid who was an 'average kid' who just decided that it was too hard to learn. One of us would have said 'Come on, we'll practice after school' and we would have done that because we wouldn't have wanted a friend to be unable to manage this task. That's what I think the current crop of seniors at co-op would do, too. But, with the younger group...I think kids would be much more likely to say that it's too hard, and once a couple of the kids did it then likely several of them would follow suit. A couple of kids who don't say that the work is impossible - who have more of the mindset of the older kids - sometimes snark back at the the complaints, and they are considered judgey...which at this point they kind of are, but I think that it reinforces the dynamic even more. These are good kids, and I care about them. I've known some of these families for years. It's hard to watch them set themselves up to see challenge as impossible. I hate watching them not learn things, because while none of us know their likely life paths, I am guessing that they will be better served with basic academic knowledge, writing ability, and math skills. These kids aren't any less capable than the seniors were at their age, and we are working to figure out how to help them build confidence and learn skills. A couple of the teachers are working on it in different ways.