greenmamato3
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Posts posted by greenmamato3
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I have been immersing myself in all the posted topics regarding Language Arts for high school on the High School boards and have reviewed the WTM (not 4th edition because I don't own it) as well as my copy of Teaching the Trivium for guidelines about what to do as I plan my oldest DS's 4 yrs of high school. And yes, I've read Ruth's epic post . . . .
My head is swimming. Please offer help if you can wade through my post! I'm most thankful for anyone to jump in here and give advice!
I hate to be a "needy" mom on here, but I need some shoulders to lean on from those of you who have gone before me and have accumulated invaluable experience and perspective.
Here's some background that might help you as you advise.
As an elementary and middle school student, he has completed the following:
IEW SWI-A plus some of the Theme-based books
WWE1-4
WWS 1-2
Lively Art of Writing (LAW)
IEW unit VIII of TWSS
MCT: Island, Town, CE,1 ML1, WWW, 4practice,
R&S Grade 8
Killgallon SCES & SCMS
VCR A
World of Poetry (CAP)
Fallacy Detective
Art of Argument
Discovery of Deduction
He is currently enrolled in a Humanities local tutorial class (going into his 3rd year) which teaches cohesively (as one would expect) wonderful literature, challenging presentations/ projects and writing assignments based on the Progym, and deep study of history. He is a strong student in this class and writes well, thinks well, and loves all of it. I just don't know that it is enough actual writing to call it an entire credit hour. Thus . . . my search for something to just fill out and ensure everything is in place.
How to navigate the high school years' English/Lit/Speech credits without overloading him . . . . (we'll have 2 others after him . . . just fyi)
On my bookshelf (and/or written in my accumulated notes) for the high school years are the following resources:
Elements of Style
On Writing Well
On Speaking Well
A Rulebook for Arguments + Wkbk
Intermediate Logic (Nance)
Hands on Essays
New Oxford Guide to Writing
The Elements of Rhetoric
VCR level D & E
Figures of Speech (Quinn)
How to Read Lit Like a Prof
They Say, I Say
How to Read a Book
Aristotle Rhetoric
On my radar but I have no idea whether they are needed or just duplicates / redundancies of what I own are the following:
LTOW (it seems he would be better suited to level 2 but you're supposed to start at level 1 :( )
IEW SICC C or Theme Based level C or SWI-C --> i get conflicting opinions about which would be best given our trail up to this point
IEW WTTW
MCT ML3 & WWW2
MP's CC <-- i think he could jump in at book 6 and continue through 8, even though I know you're supposed to go from ground up
Rhetoric Alive 1
Writing Strands 7 plus Writing Exposition
Write Foundation level 2 or 3
EIW level 10
What is my problem, then, you ask?
Sequencing this and making it not too robust but just enough to fill out the need for High School level writing instruction/English credits in light of what he has done and what he will need to be able to do. We are just on the brink of 9th grade studies (we school on and off all year long). What order could I use for the books sitting on my self? WHat would be missing, or would I need nothing from the radar list?
{Oh, and we really cannot do online classes because we're on satellite internet}
I talked with the gal from LTOW (circe) and she recommended he go quickly through LTOW1 and then roll into LTOW2 but this seems so expensive. And I cannot tell really whether that is the right kind of writing instruction for him, or whether that is unnecessary. It seems that LTOW is a thinking program, not a writing skills program. I need something that is just bare bones practice in writing but can be flexible to fit in with the sometimes hefty loads of writing he does in his Humanities class.
I need something that is nuts and bolts, ongoing, not overwhelming, exposes him to all the different types of essay writing he needs to be able to do.
Also, in which order should I do the rhetoric books I currently own? Also, how do I assign credit hours for the Rhetoric studies. I am so confused because WTM talks about Rhetoric being the replacement for Logic . . . but the Rulebook for Arguments and the New Oxford Guide are more like nuts and bolts to writing out his arguments, whereas the Intermediate Logic curriculum is all about mastering the propositions. (Would I do Intermediate Logic prior to Rulebook for Arguments or concurrently?) Do I give an elective credit for Intermediate Logic? What do I call it? I know I call it "Speech" when we do a Rhetoric class for elective credit, right?
I am drawn to the official-ness of the Progym model (as it is called out in LTOW, CC, CAP), but came to it late in my schooling with him, so he hasn't had official instruction in that. DD2 and DS3 are getting that with CAP's Wr&Rh. We have generally always been a mesh of WTM and Charlotte Mason . . . . I'm beginning to see the fruit of all of it in DS1. . . .but I want to finish strong during these last four years, bringing to completion what I began with such fervor at the beginning.
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Susan,
I am curious as to why you didn't recommend any of the Classical Composition books after WWS3.
Sheri
Yes, I agree -- and I'm hoping by bumping this, she might see it and come back to us :)
Also, I'll add my own inquiry.
I have a 6th grade avid writer (who, yes, baulks at times to "engineering writing assignments," but who nevertheless is a diligent writer as well as a creative one) has completed IEW's SWI-A plus the followup Geo-Based, KG SC for El., MCT's Island & Town, and has faithfully worked through the skills in WWE1-4 and part of WWS1. His younger sister is going to feather in some W&R I and II this year with her WWE3/4 work+KG. I'm on the fence as to whether to place the 6th grader in the Classical Composition mode or whether to have him join her in book III or IV of W&R when she gets to it. My understanding is that W&R III can be really great transition to WWS1, or just fun reinforcement after completing it. He is definitely going to be continuing to work through WWS1 + some KG middle school; I just don't know whether MP's CC would fit well into our paradigm, or whether I should go the W&R route with him. Plus, my other frustration is debunking the placement in MP's CC because their recommendation is that all children start in book 1. In his situation, that would be ludicrous. I was thinking level 3 (Chreia/Maxim), but don't want to overestimate his mastery of Narrative, since much of WWS is still teaching Narrative.
I hope this isn't too case-specific in order to garner some thoughts and advice. I'm all ears :) TIA!
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We are RS devotees. :) But I am also willing to recognize the value of other programs like MEP, BA, Hands on Equations, etc, as supplements to the very solid grounding that RS provides children.
For my oldest, BA didn't exist when he was going through RS C and D. But during RS D year, I feathered in HoE and MEP to slow down his pace and undergird him with having several other presentations of math challenges. It worked like a charm. We did level E and then moved to Art of Problem Solving Pre-A feathered with another round of MEP and that was great. He's still mid-AoPS/MEP7 right now.
With my second child, things went differently. We did BA 3A and 3B between RS C and D with my DD who isn't particularly math-savvy but definitely isn't behind. It was a great fit. She needed a change of pace, though, after working through the 3A and 3B because it starts to get very distracting with all those conversations and colors (she's an extrovert, so I think she was focusing on the personalities, the relationships, the outfits and their styles MORE than the math itself ;). After working in RS D through lesson 133 for about 8 months, when it gets more geometry heavy, I asked her if she'd like to pop back into 3C and 3D, since we had them sitting on the shelf, for a change of pace. She was elated at the idea. So I asked her to re-read 3B comic book (that's what we call it) and then she'll hit the ground running with 3C this coming week when our new school year begins. HTH. I think it will be a fun break and will reinforce her skills from RS C and D before she wraps up the last few lessons in D and moves to E. I don't know whether I'll invest in BA 4 at all; I was looking last night at the S&S and comics, but . . . I have awhile to determine what's best :) If I did it, it would be, again, as a pace-break from RS E and not for instruction per se but more for reinforcement. Again, HTH
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just lurking. curious about other experiences people are having.
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thank you. reading through those two threads was really helpful. i had searched and couldn't find anyone who had asked a question similar to mine, but i figured it was likely someone had :)
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teaching the classics is a great course for parents to use for open ended socratic discussion with children about literature. IEW sells it on their site as well
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adding my $.02 FWIW
i've read on the RFWP forums about other moms who skip voyage and do a hybrid. we just finished our second yr of MCT, having done the complete package for both levels except we didn't do poetry for town. i am straddling DS1 being extremely GT/linguistic and DD2 being just barely GT (although i definitely think MCT has helped her be even more so than if she hadn't been working in MCT). So i don't want to push her too hard by letting him set the pace. i've previously heard moms say that skipping from Town to the following combo could work well.
ML+CEII+Poetry&Humanity+PrVoy( or 4Pr1)
i would use this as my writing approach for the older: WWS and KG (middle school) alternating with CAP's W&R or MP's CC for the writing component. for the younger, i'd do WWE3or4 + KG alternating with CAP's W&R
in our case, i'm thinking it would work only if i spend some time now that we've finished Town to do some KG/WWE3 or 4 + CAP's W&R with DD2 and "mark time" with DS1 by filling in with something like LLATL tan/gray and finish WWS1.
Literature study would be done in a manner more like Teaching the Classics instead of through MCT's lit.
I've heard that the "whole to parts" approach for Essay Voyage is a good balance to WWS but our kids write creatively all the time and i find that just being exposed to the MCT way brings on their creativity without them needing a specific creative writing prompt. I think i tend to error on the side of the Progymnasmata for their young minds for me to keep lots of modeling in place.
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just following along, and hoping to give you a bump, too. appreciate all the posts so far
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can anyone speak to how these two writing programs worked out in their homes? i'm specifically interested in anyone who has used WWE plus IEW as a foundation and whose child is still young enough (4th/5th grade) to really benefit from an entirely different approach such as the progymnasmata offers.
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is the approach of LL the same as FF and SF? somewhere i remember someone making a comparison of whether certain Latin programs approached things for more of a grammatical standpoint or more from a translational standpoint, beyond just the parts-to-whole and whole-to-parts paradigm.
the reason i ask is because i'm currently on the fence about whether to do FF, LL1 or visual latin. i have a list of pros and cons for each. i'm interested in you transitioning from LL to the FF (or Third Form as it were) since i think that would be a better fit for my younger child of the two who will be doing the latin together.
i'd appreciate any thoughts or guidance as i consider and weigh the options.
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there are several on rainbow resources site here :
http://www.rainbowresource.com/prodlist.php?subject=7&category=1818
also, we have one written by Ellen Hajek called Diagramming the key to understanding grammar. simple and usable enough -- but i think it's OOP, so you'll have to get it used someplace.
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I thought I'd throw in what we did. When DS was 9.5, he finished up RS-E, about 1/2 way through 4thgrade. So we transitioned to using a combination of things --
a) 2 days a week we used Hands On Equations. he completed the verbal word problems and used the 3 levels of the ipad apps, over the course of about 6 months.
b) 2 days a week he worked in MEP. I used both MEP yr 4 for a while and MEP yr 7 (it's a review year or something to that effect and doesn't require the same kind of teaching time that the lower grades of MEP require). i just set a timer for him and he worked a bit in each of the three or four sections we chose for that time period.
c) bounced around with logic books and logic puzzles, including things like Perplexors, Venn, safari logic (prufrock?), building thinking skills, mindbenders, etc
then, we transitioned to working in LoF. I had on hand icecream through mineshaft, and then the two intermediate books, so i just had him plug away independently on those in place of the HOE and only did the MEP casually. he started watching KHAN videos and alcumus videos casually because i had purchased AoPS prealg and he saw it on the shelf and was inquiring what it would all be about . . . . . . but those were just casual watching sessions like at lunch or whatever.
finally, he just sort of seemed like he needed some steam, and some change .... so when he was 10.5 we decided to plunge into AoPS, middle of 5th grade year. we are taking it slowly, and i have a few more ideas in my backpocket if we need to go back and review basics and stuff along the way {lots of the MEP yr 7 still that he could complete, CLE7, and a couple saxon books that were given to us that i've never used, plus things like "keys to" series and REALworld algebra if need be sitting on my amazon wishlist}.....so far, we're not having trouble. RS prepared him so well, along with HOE (highly recommend) for algebraic thinking ......
and then we'll do RSG with VT probably for 6th grade, about halfway through the year, i suspect.
DD9 is a completely different type of kid, so her path through math as she nears the end of RSE won't look exactly like his did. but i'll definitely include HOE, definitely do some review type stuff with either MEP yr7, CLE or the keys to series. and i'm going to let her dive through the LOF books since we have them, when she's ready .... we always have a "logic" book going for fun puzzles with her anyway . . . but maybe i'll just go straight through to RSG with her since she'll be older when she finishes RSE.....
HTH
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just wanted to say thank you all for the helpful discussion thread. i logged on tonight to see if i could figure out what in the world to do about DS10 struggling so much with chapter 2 in Aops Pre-Alg. sooo thankful that i have some new ideas for tomorrow's lessons :) glad to not be alone. most of all, i'm glad he'll feel encouraged that *he* is not the only one struggling
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i'm interested in continuing our art study through AP this year, as we're just completing our book 2 of the K-3 level. I have been generally pleased with it, though i don't know whether it's absolutely the simplest/best out there, since i've never done anything other than it (well, we did Mona brooks' Drawing with Children one year but i wouldn't call that an art curriculum in the same sense as AP is).
so, my question is this:
if you've used AP but moved away from it to something else, what did you move to and why? what ages were your kids and what factors influenced your decision? were you pleased with it or would you have stuck to AP if you had it to do over again?
{I was thinking I'd put my 5th grader in the grade 4-5 book and let him work semi-independently while my K'er and 3rd grader get to share book 3 of the K-3 series, since that's the time period we'll be studying in history anyway. }
i know there are a lot of great art curr out there. all our kids are very artistic and musical as well as just generally creative, so it's not that i couldn't live without a proper curriculum; having said that, i do love that the picture study and art projects are incorporated into one cohesive manual that makes me feel equipped to just "open and go." as for the older child starting his own independent pursuit of art, it will really be a testing ground for whether he's ready for that kind of independence.
i really like HFA as well and have used them in tandem year by year with much satisfaction. however, i will not be purchasing HFA this year (my degree is in piano performance so it's not like i don't know how to lead them through musicians, esp the more comfortable i get as a homeschooler heading into our 6th year of schooling) ......
so i'm just garnering thoughts and ideas before i take the plunge and spend $75 on new art instruction.
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here it is, the link. there are other grades, but this is the one that my son began working through at the end of 3rd and is still working through now at the end of 4th, since we took such a long time off from doing it. ;)
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ok well i'm back on the fence, teetering over to the side of getting the MUD set for now and saving APM for next spring. LOL. you all are so great! :)
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and just wanted to add that ALL your comments are so helpful and reassuring :) thank you ....
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I am currently making it through Deconstucting Penguins, which is a simple, straightforward, parent-friendly way to do literary analysis with younger kids. I have not used any lit guides with my kids up to this point. I am very comfortable with literature (minor in English for my undergraduate degree) so I plan to do a tremendous amount of reading aloud the classics and discussing as we go. One of my favorite discussion questions, borrowed from Andrew Kern, is "Should so and so have done such and such?" My kids are very different so the replies lead to interesting discussion.
My youngest son is a voracious reader and is drawn to the classics naturally. He has asked me to read aloud Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde, which I am currently doing. The vocabulary is very rich, and I am doing quite a bit of defining and explaining as we go, but my youngest son is really enjoying it. He wants to have a book club for 10-12 year olds over the summer, and I plan to lead a Deconstructing Penguins type discussion. How in-depth it goes will depend on the interest of the kids involved. I think it will be fun. :)
just ordered a used copy of the deconstructing penguins and am looking forward to it arriving so i can incorporate those elements into our discussion as we go, as well. we're currently reading swiss family robinson ;)
i *don't* have a degree in English .... rather mine was in piano performance. LOL. i did a lot of writing along the way, but not as much literary analysis, as would make me feel more confident in this regard. we *love* books here, so it's only befitting that we'd know how to discuss them; i don't see that being tied to lit guides, though :)
oh, and i don't feel like i want a lit guide that expands it into areas of science, history, math, etc .... (i always think of FIAR as being the seed form of that, and it never interested me). i prefer to sort of unschool that part of their eduction, drawing any inspiration they feel from the books to complete those kinds of activities and pursuit during their free time :)
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I think Town will be nice for after R&S 4. Are you using/open to using WWE? I think it is a nice "structure" for the more amorphic approach of MCT, a balance I find perfectly suits our family. it allows us to continue to review grammar rules in context and i think that dictation is so key. To me, they are a great pair. My older child (10) will be dabbling in WWE4 a bit more before he goes on to try out WWS1. I've heard that some work on "paragraph writing" is really good to fit in before WWS, so we're going to take a little bit of a zoom through approach to Grammar Town and Paragraph Town almost simultaneously to prep him for that. my DD8 will be along for the ride and i'll later circle back and review if she needs it. my DS rarely needs review, while DD does better with spiral. oh, we found that DailyGrams 4 and Killgallon sentence composing for elementary are nice resources for weeks when mama can't get MCT out but kiddos need a to do a little grammar independently. and i just picked up a copy of Hajek's diagramming sentences books since neither of them will be garnering that instruction from a grammar text this coming year. i think the 4 level analysis is great, but i want them to also see the diagrams, we most of our family are visual learners, esp eldest son. we like to have a few things we can bounce around between as the years "wears on," to minimize the monotony of schooling from time to time. oh, fwiw, my DS worked during the latter part of 3rd grade on DG4, and then we set it aside for almost 10 months, while we went through Island and our IEW. he just picked it up last month and is finishing it off (with a breeze) at the end of 4th grade. he enjoys editing practice in the "gumdrops" book, and next year he's going to work in the editor in chief (during 5th). i've heard others use the evan moor daily paragraph editing before gumdrops. that might be a nice little "independent" tool you could use to supplement Town from time to time.
hope those options tell you more about our "experience" as avid users of both MCT and the WTM approach. :)
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so ?? anyone else have a little more experience to offeR?
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and so that means that the WWS book will pretty much fulfill any need for "training" in lit analysis (i.e. writing) that he'll need during 5-8th, right?! :)
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yes, actually. :) tremendously ....
Logic after Nance Books
in High School and Self-Education Board
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