Question for those that like Circe, etc.

[Amy Jo]

I really appreciate all the helpful responses.  I still am finding that I am confused.  I am getting a feel that this whole idea involves being a very creative mom.  I AM NOT.  LOL.  Don't take that comment too far.  But, I see a lot of creativity in what people are posting.  I would struggle with that, I think, at least where I am at in life right now.  I have this image in my mind that you all are sitting around with cheerful, love to learn children reading a great story and all smiles.  I want to rip my hair out when I try to read aloud to ALL the kids.  I have to split them up or have one child watch the 2yo so I can read in quiet.  It is tedious for me to just get math, grammar, spelling, etc., done where I have little energy to do the "fun" stuff that would encourage a love of learning.  

 

I know I have rambled a bit, and I am still pondering things that have been said here and some posts that were linked.  I just want that rest already!  I know it is on me, alone, to find it and make it happen.  

 

I think it's okay for you to ramble, LAmom. I want to (1) assure you that I am not very creative either. We read good books and narrate. I try to stick in Kern's "Should X have done Y?" questions if the time is right. I have them play outside a lot, I encourage them to draw and build.

 

(2) I do NOT teach my kids together in general. They have their own years, I rotate between them. Now, I am working on doing some more things together because it is good for us to bond and talk; also, it is good for the kids to work as a team. But Circe doesn't mean you have to have everyone doing the same subject / time period. And it doesn't mean they need to be different.

 

(3) It sounds like you want some more structure. I need that too. I'm just not the unschoolish sit-down-with-a-box-of-books type. I'm too scatter-brained. :P So I, personally, found structure in AO. Someone else just posted they used SCM. The question is, can you use the programs you are considering to inspire wonder, and to contemplate truth, goodness and beauty.

 

Can you encourage love of learning while you do math (or grammar, or spelling)? Play with the puppies, whether those puppies are numbers, words or letters. http://www.circeinstitute.org/2012/04/inspiring-children Have a plan, but don't be afraid to deviate. Our planned nature study focus was Amphibians. But I'm switching, we just set up a bird feeder so we'll be doing birds. And I'm using what I already have on my shelf.

 

You can start smaller, especially while you learn. Is something missing? Add it in. Is there something you are doing that is not the best? Drop it. Did you learn something or read something or do something beautiful or wonderous? Share it with your children.

[ElizaG]

-Literature/Language Art:  This is what I have not figured out yet.  I want to create something that will enable me to teach grammar, spelling, handwriting, writing, etc.  with the literature that I read to my children and have them read themselves.  I don't know what this will look like yet and still have a lot of research to do to determine if that is a good idea or not and how I would implement it.

 

To me, this is a crucial thing that's missing from the CiRCE discussions.  The curriculum is supposed to be integrated, and literature is supposed to be at the core, so it just makes sense to have our own literary selections be the basis for the other language arts (including writing).  But unless you go with CM, there's no plan for actually doing this. 

 

And it's not just a question of principles, or confidence.  At this point, after researching and contemplating this for years, I've developed a pretty solid sense of what my children should be learning, how to teach it, and what books to use.   It's the planning, organization, and record-keeping -- for multiple ages at once, and amid all the business of everyday life -- that gets me every time. 

 

If someone can solve this, then I'll start sharing real-life examples of this way of teaching, both from our own homeschool and from authors who take a similar approach.  Until that point, I think it might do more harm than good.  

 

We have a smart bunch of mothers here.  We need to pull together on this.  Because I'm not seeing any leadership in this area from the "classical education experts."   I have this strange feeling that the "experts" = us.  

[Amy Jo]

Also, I think what Tibbie said about educating the person and nurturing the heart is at the heart of it but how do you quantify it? How do you divide the line between parenting and schooling, it is so blurred as home educator.

 

I don't divide, really. I don't usually teach in the evening though (unless we missed a read-aloud). That's my relaxing time - I don't clean the house then either, KWIM. And I don't do any planning or work (house, homeschool, business) on Sundays. Actually, the no-plans-on-Sundays has been my best move all year. I love my Sundays - I can just be.

[KeriJ]

So KeriJ, you see the Simply Charlotte Mason ideas as able to work with the ages of your kids?  I think that is where I struggle.  To be able to teach multiple ages, etc. Does SCM talk about more than one kid and how that would look? 

 

This was a helpful series: http://simplycharlottemason.com/series/combining-homeschool-grade-levels/

[Lang Syne Boardie]

To me, this is a crucial thing that's missing from the CiRCE discussions.  The curriculum is supposed to be integrated, and literature is supposed to be at the core, so it just makes sense to have our own literary selections be the basis for the other language arts (including writing).  But unless you go with CM, there's no plan for actually doing this. 

 

And it's not just a question of principles, or confidence.  At this point, after researching and contemplating this for years, I've developed a pretty solid sense of what my children should be learning, how to teach it, and what books to use.   It's the planning, organization, and record-keeping -- for multiple ages at once, and amid all the business of everyday life -- that gets me every time. 

 

If someone can solve this, then I'll start sharing real-life examples of this way of teaching, both from our own homeschool and from authors who take a similar approach.  Until that point, I think it might do more harm than good.  

 

We have a smart bunch of mothers here.  We need to pull together on this.  Because I'm not seeing any leadership in this area from the "classical education experts."   I have this strange feeling that the "experts" = us.  

Eliza G, some of us are working on it. (Several in this thread!) We have this Real Life problem -- we can do it or we can write about it but we can't do both. :p Sometimes I fear we won't really get down to the construction of the curriculum until our own children are grown, which is a bit late...we see such a need but we can hardly get the work off the ground.

 

I know exactly what you mean about that sneaking suspicion that we might be the experts. On the other hand, when what you are 'expert' in is creating a working system for your own unique family, just how transferable will the knowledge and experience be? I think we could create a useful jumping-off place but the heart (and art) of customization would still need to be emphasized.

[Amy Jo]

We have a smart bunch of mothers here.  We need to pull together on this.  Because I'm not seeing any leadership in this area from the "classical education experts."   I have this strange feeling that the "experts" = us.  

 

But part of the point is to STOP looking to the EXPERTS!!! They do not know YOUR child. So yes, you are the expert. Trust yourself!!!

[ElizabethB]

For math: for me, self reading, Mathematics, is God Silent? And Liping Ma. The author of Mathematics is God Silent? also has a website:

 

http://www.biblicalchristianworldview.net/mathematics.html

 

The self reading is so I understand the beauty of math and how math works as a system. So far, the materials I personally use to teach that are Singapore and the the older Dolciani texts. I try to explain the interconnectedness of it and the underlying structure, but most of that applies in higher levels of math. Eventually, I plan to have them read parts of Mathematics is God Silent.

 

We are mainly still at the efficiency stage of math and not yet on to beauty.

[Lang Syne Boardie]

But part of the point is to STOP looking to the EXPERTS!!! They do not know YOUR child. So yes, you are the expert. Trust yourself!!!

I took Eliza G's post a little differently. I thought she was talking about nuts-and-bolts managerial skills and jumping-off places for learning, not the scripted packages that we've been steering people away from...I might have interpreted her thoughts that way because that's where my own heart has been for some time. I would like to write the secular, inclusive TOG, sort of, so that new homeschoolers would have more connections to begin with and a little more direction for teaching a large age range all together. And I'd like to write in the philosophy of knowing when to leave the plan. People would like to know how to get off the path and get back on it later, I think...these are concepts that we could address.

 

Anyway. On the one hand I absolutely believe that the goal is family-by-family, returning to ancient paths. The more pragmatic view is that we have the evidence that people need some help. I don't think it happens in the first go-round. I think a home educator has to take in the information for the first time and then the connection-seeking can begin in earnest. Still thinking how to be useful without becoming just another boxed curriculum creator.

[Soror]

To me, this is a crucial thing that's missing from the CiRCE discussions.  The curriculum is supposed to be integrated, and literature is supposed to be at the core, so it just makes sense to have our own literary selections be the basis for the other language arts (including writing).  But unless you go with CM, there's no plan for actually doing this. 

 

 

I love the idea of integration but practicality and demands of times means that however we are using materials that are separate. I feel that what we are using do focus on beauty  and truth and inspiring of discussion. Sometimes real life means we do the best we can instead of letting the ideal paralyze us in inaction.  However, nearly everything we use is evaluated by worthiness and I tweak, cut and add as needed for our goals and needs. 

[Alte Veste Academy]

I understand, truly, I do,  but did 8 come on one day and just write all of it out? No, it's taken her years of writing it all out here. You can't give a prescription for an art, which is the bread analogy, not that CHILDREN are bread, but teaching is. 

 

When we get pressed for more, and more is when we get upset because we can't hand it over in a present. Find the threads. We will still be here. Ask *precise* questions. 

 

What you are sometimes asking is what we do organically, without realizing it and figuring out how to communicate something that we've never even thought about as a process is hard. 

 

 

I'm not trying to be a pain in the rear, but really, I'm failing to see where anyone is asking some particular golden, chosen "we" to lay out the "present" of a "prescription" in this thread. Someone started a conversation, one that will eventually become part of the history of the boards, just like other threads you referenced. The answers in this thread will become part of that collective wisdom. 

 

I have read "the threads" but have no precise questions. I just like the inspiration that usually comes from reading threads like this. 

[ElizaG]

I took Eliza G's post a little differently. I thought she was talking about nuts-and-bolts managerial skills and jumping-off places for learning, not the scripted packages that we've been steering people away from...

 

Yes, that's more what I'm thinking of.  I think.    ;)

 

I trust myself to know what to do, and would love to build my own curriculum.  I just *cannot* do it, in practical terms, without some sort of supportive framework for the organizational part (which of course would have to be customized for each of us).  

 

What that framework is, I don't know.  But I've been thinking about a few things that seem to touch on it.

 

1) Montessori style record-keeping.  A real live example of a way of keeping track of children's progress through a scope & sequence, in the context of spontaneous activity.  There are software versions that come pre-loaded with standard M. tasks, but you can change or add to these.   Could be helpful as is, maybe, but more so if tied into something else.

 

2) The Granger's Index.  Look up poetry by title, subject, etc.  Also online now, with author bios and other stuff -- but looks to cost $$$, and not really optimized for homeschoolers.  

 

3) K12.  The curriculum was so-so, and I'm not keen on having the children go online much, but I liked the way it was set up for the parent.  I would like something similar that I can load up myself, and maybe share with friends.  

 

(While we're at it, I would also like a pony.   :001_smile: )

[Mommyfaithe]

 

I quotes this in full because it should be read twice.

 

Yes.

 

I am sorry that some of the younger moms are feeling that the elder are being vague and unhelpful, but there are only so many ways that we can say, "Work out your own convictions and live by them for that is the only way to have peace in how you homeschool your children. You will only believe in it enough to do it no matter what if you were the author of the vision."

 

We can say (and we have said), "Read these books and see if these philosophies take root in your heart."

 

We can say (and we have said), "These book publishers and classical ed speakers/mentors are seeking some of the same things so you might want to start with their lists and materials while you hone your vision."

 

We can say (and we have said), "It starts with believing that the answers are within yourself and not in some system designed by someone else."

 

But we can't really show you our day, because it's not a matter of marching the dc through stacks of curriculum and skills, not a matter of standardized test prep, not a matter of magic found in routines and schedules. We make pretty plans and lists but we depart from them as the spirit leads and what arises in their place is almost always better...and we don't even know how to show that in a forum post. We older moms are frustrated, too, because what we really want is to get off this computer and invite you over to our houses for the day so you can just watch us do what we do. And we can't.

 

Read the books. Buy books for your children and for yourself. Determine who you want to be as a parent and as your child's guide through his formative years and BE that person, no matter what anybody says, no matter if you get tired or lonely or start to doubt yourself. Be who you are called to be. Learn to see the human growth of the child standing in front of you, and to be honest with yourself about whether he is growing in wisdom, in stature, and in favor with God and man. Does he lean toward beauty? Can he recognize truth and wisdom? Is he curious? Is he happy? Is he acquiring the kinds of useful skills upon which he can build more knowledge and skills? Whatever you believe education to be "for" are you seeing fruit of that pursuit in your home or do you need to make changes so that the entire family is living and growing again?

 

See, I can tell you the books my 17yo is reading this year, and I give you a few snapshots of our conversations. What I can't do is explain exactly how homeschooling in this highly relational way is superior to even the best private schools. Not really. It has something to do with that connection between parent and child. It has a lot to do with the continuity of one very attached teacher through their whole childhood. The power, the absolute power of being able to refer to lessons he learned at 4, 8, 12, as he goes on? To make those connections to pivotal moments in his education and upbringing as you encounter the same principles in his rhetoric level books? AMAZING growth, amazing love, amazing connection -- this is why homeschooling in this switched-on way is so effective. You were there for the whole thing. You were there to show him the world from birth. AND you were there to help him learn to express his reactions to all that he sees and thinks, through writing, speaking, drawing, painting, and living.

 

You will see your children live a life changed, shaped, and molded by virtuous things. Heroes, wisdom, beauty, truth, knowledge, skills, faith, wonder -- nobody spends their day seeking these things without being changed. You will be changed, too.

 

This type of transforming growth does not come by workbooks and canned curriculum. You can start with somebody's list, but if you aren't open to the spirit leading you and the rabbit trails being of greater worth than the plan, then this style might not be for you. If you can't listen to your child explain in wonder how a book has changed his life (with all the connections and lessons he's learned, just pouring out of him, as he becomes your teacher for the moment) and follow that by tossing your study guide out the window because the student has obviously learned all he needed to learn for now...then this style might not be for you. If you are not interested in spending your spare time reading and listening and thinking and learning and praying so that you have more to pour out in the unexpected moments, then this style might not be for you.

 

But if this style is for you, and you are ready to tell the world that college and career ready skills might be a by-product of your child's education but they will never be the goal, and you thumb your nose at the standardized tests and you no longer yearn to be rich enough to send your child to the "best" prep school, and you know that truth leads to more truth so you have time to figure it out and you have the diligence to pursue it...you will reap what you sow. Sow these things into your children and into your own heart and you will reap a beautiful and bountiful harvest.

 

After a very hard winter (literally and metaphorically) I am seeing the buds and shoots. Spring is here. The crop is promising and I have no regrets.

 

[Mommyfaithe]

Eliza G, some of us are working on it. (Several in this thread!) We have this Real Life problem -- we can do it or we can write about it but we can't do both. :p Sometimes I fear we won't really get down to the construction of the curriculum until our own children are grown, which is a bit late...we see such a need but we can hardly get the work off the ground.

 

I know exactly what you mean about that sneaking suspicion that we might be the experts. On the other hand, when what you are 'expert' in is creating a working system for your own unique family, just how transferable will the knowledge and experience be? I think we could create a useful jumping-off place but the heart (and art) of customization would still need to be emphasized.

My problem has always been that I could plan it or I can do it. I choose to do it. I do have loose plans and I do keep some records, but mainly my kids notebooks become my record keeping.

 

Pre planning is what I call my summer sabbatical. This is where I read teaching theory, watch lectures, learn philosophies, home my skills as a teacher and out myself into a place of rest. My summer sabbatical consists of grappling with ideas and ideologies. It focuses me on what I wish to accomplish in the coming year. I look at each individual child and set goals for them and a tentative plan on how to attain those goals. I make back up plans and sometimes back ups to my backups. I immerse myself in reading books my kids are going to read, making notes, looking for my own connections, thinking how I relate to the book so I can relate freely to my child or children. I try not to get in the way of the author, but I also need to not get in my own way.

This process takes weeks, but it is an enjoyable time for me and my kids. I do this in summer because they are busy swimming or working summer jobs or doing what kids do in summer. They have their own book lists, math and writing for summer. Those activities do not change. Other activities change according to season.

For me prep work does not include a plan book. I have tried. It doesn't work for me and I refuse to feel guilty about it one more minute. Prep work includes looking at my materials, looking at any teacher support materials, looking to see what calls into my goals as helpful and what to toss aside -and what goes into the maybe pile. Taking those materials and figuring out how long I think they will take to get through and then doubling that! I know us well. We tend to trudge... We like to mire. We haNg out in our time period or putter around with our science observations. We tinker, we play, we battle, we make peace. It is all part of the journey and as you go deeper into it you settle into an equilibrium, or a place of teaching at rest.

[Another Lynn]

I have been reading a lot of Circe posts today, listened to a lecture by Andrew Kern, and read a lot of Amongst Lovely Things blog.  A lot of what I read has been refreshing and helpful!  I checked out some CAP articles, too.

 

BUT, I'm wondering if you have relaxed a bit on homeschooling and look to have the rest and not the anxiety, what does a day/week look like to you?  What do you use for history, lit, etc?  I haven't really grasped the whole Circe thing and maybe I am missing the point?  Teach Latin, teach the basics, do some history?  I guess the whole feel of it was freeing but yet felt like unschooling or something to me and I need a more:  do this (if it works for your child/you) and do that (if it works for your child/you).  I like the here is what we recommend list....  Like WTM offers.  That has been helpful to me as a starting point.  

 

I've been so stressed with different ideas, what will work best for my kids, etc., that the struggle to decide what I should do for history/lit has been consuming all my time and energy!  I know, relax lady.  I do the MFW/TOG/SOTW/plus other history debate every year.  

 

What I loved the most about Amongst Lovely Things blog is the encouragement to get back to reading aloud.  I have let myself stop because of being overwhelmed by little ones/noise that something that is so important to me is not happening in the home.

 

Now this whole avoid historical fiction thing....  

 

Anyways,  what would one use to have the Charlotte Mason/Classical/Circe style schooling in their home?  I think that is what my ramble is all about.   :)

 

I am not as far on this path as others who have already posted, but here's my .02 anyway.  :-)

 

The closest I have come to feeling successful is when I've used Ambleside Online as my guide.  I'm not saying this is "the" way to do it, but maybe it's worth spending some time looking at their plans and asking how it's different from MFW/TOG/WTM, etc. 

 

Books are read more slowly

Fewer books are scheduled

Literature is usually limited to good literature, while historical fiction is usually in the "free reads."  (in other words, encouraged but not focused on)

There is a greater emphasis on input than on output. 

You're encouraged to see beauty in areas like Nature Study, Composer and Artist studies, consistent poetry reading, hymns, etc.

 

A couple other thoughts - I have my own box checking tendencies to contend with (which is a big reason I'm not farther down the path than I am), so I would say to whatever extent a curriculum/box/plan makes you feel rushed and leads you towards box checking, flee from it!  To whatever extent a curriculum/box/plan leads you towards the contemplation of virtue and ideas, beauty and truth, discussing them with your children, then use it!  For me, HOD, TOG, WTM brought out the box-checker in me.  I wanted the curriculum to do the work so I wouldn't have to think.  No wonder that didn't work very well.  For me, I think the box-checking tendency is so strong that it helps me to divorce skills from content and divorce input from output.  I do not think this is the ideal, nor even the end goal, but maybe necessary for *me* to have rest rather than anxiety.  Or said differently, at least divorce my goals for skills and output from my goals for content and input, so that adjustments are more easily made?  If that sounds crazy, feel free to disregard, I'm kind of thinking "out loud."  I confess I'm coming back to these ideas after some time away.

 

 

[8filltheheart]

To me, this is a crucial thing that's missing from the CiRCE discussions. The curriculum is supposed to be integrated, and literature is supposed to be at the core, so it just makes sense to have our own literary selections be the basis for the other language arts (including writing). But unless you go with CM, there's no plan for actually doing this.

 

And it's not just a question of principles, or confidence. ....... It's the planning, organization, and record-keeping -- for multiple ages at once, and amid all the business of everyday life -- that gets me every time.

 

I don't use CM. I don't use anything. But, I have written extensively about how we do it in our home, so I don't think that it is entirely missing in these discussions bc other do their own thing as well and have discussed their approaches as well.  

 

Fwiw, and I think this is VERY crucial to the discussion, I find it is easier and takes LESS time to teach this way. I realize others may not find it easier (like all things in life, it gets easier with practice) but it is less time consuming to integrate vs. separating subjects.

[ElizaG]

I don't use CM. I don't use anything. But, I have written extensively about how we do it in our home, so I don't think that it is entirely missing in these discussions bc other do their own thing as well and have discussed their approaches as well.  

 

Fwiw, and I think this is VERY crucial to the discussion, I find it is easier and takes LESS time to teach this way. I realize others may not find it easier (like all things in life, it gets easier with practice) but it is less time consuming to integrate vs. separating subjects.

 

I agree that integration ought to be the easier and less time-consuming approach.  I'm going to guess that the reverse appears to be true because the mainstream homeschooling paradigm is based on "using materials," rather than on passing on our own knowledge to our children.  

 

Looking back over the posts, my sense is that there's a fundamental conflict in this thread.

 

On the one hand, there's an explicit assumption that we're supposed to be liberated from workbooks and whatever, trusting our judgment, and doing our own thing.  Just us, our beloved children, and some great literature.  

 

On the other hand, there's an unspoken assumption by a large majority (with you and maybe Tibbie being exceptions) that it's unreasonable to think that we can actually do this without a lot of help.   Not "help" in the sense of suggestions from other homeschoolers -- which is turning out to be a touchy subject -- but "help" in the more faceless sense of CLE, R&S, ILL/PLL, LOE, B-I-N-G-O and Bingo was his name-o.  

 

Again, I'm not putting down anyone who uses these materials.  (We're currently using CHC and tweaking/supplementing.)  But there seems to be a lack of realism here.  Either we're all being called and equipped to go it alone, or it's okay to need a substantial amount of ongoing support from others.  And it seems that most of us -- again, leaving you in particular out of this -- are inclined toward the latter.  My sense is that we'd be better off acknowledging this than trying to minimize it.  

[Coco_Clark]

Oh wow, not sure when I will have time to read this thread. Maybe this weekend, if not this weekend then it will have to wait until after Holy Week. That circe thread was one of the first I read in planning to homeschool, so I've been lucky enough to have even the beginnings of this journey peppered with these principles. This is how I've interpreted them with my very young children.

 

Our day begins around 9am with prayers and morning time. The kids each pick a picture book from the library. I pick quality books, there are so many. Then I read a chapter from a read aloud. Again, I pick quality books. Books that are not only beautifully written, but uphold beautiful ideas. We discuss as we go, in an informal way. I ask "what would you have done?", "was that the right thing to do?", I make connections I want them to notice, "this reminds me of...". We finish off with a bible chapter and a poem. I pick one poem and we read it every morning for a week. By the end of a week they are often reciting parts or even the whole alongside with me. The poems become a part of them. Sometimes they illustrate a poem, or book, or chapter they have truly enjoyed into their notebooks. When they are writing more I will encourage quotations to be added as well as their sketches,

 

Last we alternate one more thing. Saints stories (monday), Aesop and a narration (Tuesday), composer or artist (Wednesday, we switch halfway thru the year), map skills as a geography precursor (Thursday), nature study (Friday). I design all f these myself. Nature study can be as simple as a hike or walk and some sketching. Keeping leaves to identify at home, reading nature guides, ect. For composer study we studied each section of the orchestra as well as some pieces geared towards children like Peter and the Wolf. For artists I picked 6 artists to study for 2 weeks each. We looked at their art and created recreations, along with reading books.

 

Then we break. The kids do chores, play outside, build, do puzzles, draw. No screens.

 

Later after lunch we do our maths. Next we alternate copywork taken from something we read that morning along with a short grammar lesson (LLTL is a great guide to this) or a phonics lesson. I use LOE for phonics but I could use anything, really. Then he reads me a book. Then We do either science or history. I alternate days. I use SOTW for history. We follow a lot of bunny trails. I made up science. We focused the entire year on zoology. I take lab ideas from here and there but mostly we follow bunny trails, check out library books, watch documentaries, catch bugs and tadpoles. Ect.

 

That's it. It's simple. Because of alternation the afternoon is only 3 subjects. Math/grammar/history or math/phonics/science. We have time to dig deep. The mornings are our time to be wide, but my kids hardly count it as school- it's cuddle time. It often inspires their play that morning.

 

I can see adding in more later. Shakespeare in the morning, Latin in the afternoon. I'm considering alternating more subjects as switching always through the year instead of alternating days- science and history? It would give us an even greater focus. It's a work in progress.

[Amy Jo]

Sorry if I took your post the wrong way.  :tongue_smilie: And I don't think you have to design your own system to teach the Circe way. Maybe I am wrong. I don't have the time to design a system, I don't even have summers with the lawn care biz. But I can pick the best thing for me and use it to seek wisdom & wonder. Planning from the ground up (no success though I've tried, I have too much doubt) is very different than taking a basically good plan and fitting it to your circumstance/child/family.

 

I am getting the feeling some of the experienced posters want more specific questions (or searching what they've already said). I understand that, but searching this board is frustrating (google search is better). And at some point the old links stopped working, so if you find a post linking an older post the link is likely broken.

 

I get frustrated as well on how to teach like 8 and others do. But I think I need to seek out that knowledge. I've thought of getting some of the great courses for myself, and exploring more podcasts and such. (I love podcasts.) Or do book discussions with other homeschool moms, and get additional perspectives.

 

My dream is to do the Circe apprenticeship course. If things go well at all this summer I'm going to attend starting next year.

 

I just don't think there are easy answers here. Pick one thing to do or not to do. Don't lose (or go and find asap) the sense of wonder.

 

One of the coolest quotes I read, and can't remember where, is "Do the next best thing."

[Chelli]

Taking off from Amy's post above about specific, here goes:

 

How do you determine what is enough as far as content subjects?

 

I feel like I don't teach from a state of rest because I feel that I need to squeeze it all in. The idea of just "reading and discussing" for history and science one day a week makes me have a mini panic attack. Is that really enough? Will my kids learn enough that way? Can I teach that way?

 

I would love to do our content subjects and then focus on one/maybe two content subjects in the afternoon. But then all of the doubts I listed above come back with a vengeance and I begin to doubt myself.

 

Also a quick question for you, Amy Jo (or any one else who this fits), I have found that combining my kids for content subjects doesn't work here. How do you handle doing those things separately but still teaching from a state of rest? What does that look like in your homeschool? Work with one on history, then switch out to work with the other (my current system) or something else?

I think that's all for now!

[8filltheheart]

Taking off from Amy's post above about specific, here goes:

 

How do you determine what is enough as far as content subjects?

 

I feel like I don't teach from a state of rest because I feel that I need to squeeze it all in. The idea of just "reading and discussing" for history and science one day a week makes me have a mini panic attack. Is that really enough? Will my kids learn enough that way? Can I teach that way?

 

I would love to do our content subjects and then focus on one/maybe two content subjects in the afternoon. But then all of the doubts I listed above come back with a vengeance and I begin to doubt myself.

 

Also a quick question for you, Amy Jo (or any one else who this fits), I have found that combining my kids for content subjects doesn't work here. How do you handle doing those things separately but still teaching from a state of rest? What does that look like in your homeschool? Work with one on history, then switch out to work with the other (my current system) or something else?

 

I think that's all for now!

We do every subject every day starting in 3rd grade. K2 is simply 3Rs.

 

I only combine my kids if they are functioning on the same level and same pace. For example, my 9th and 12th graders have been doing English/lit together for 2 yrs. Younger is probably functioning beyond 12th grade level. 12th grade ds did math with an older sister until he passed her.

 

Conversely, even though my 9th grader is a much stronger lang student, I had combined her with her older brother in Latin when they were younger. Her Latin skills were stronger, but she couldn't keep up with high school output in 6th grade. So, I separated them and there ended up being a yr between them bc older ds's pace was so much faster.

 

So, for the most part my kids are all doing their own thing. And even though I do have my older 2 combined for parts of lit, they are each doing their own thing as well. Dd and I are doing Tolkien and poetry and ds has been reading a wide variety of genre.

[Soror]

I tried it 8's way last year w/ every subject every day and it didn't work so well for us, we seem to prefer big chunks of a few things over little bits of lots of things. So thinking about what has worked in the past and we have enjoyed I made the current schedule. I'm hopeful for the coming year but only time will tell, I do feel reassured seeing the schedule at GBA which is quite similar to what I had in mind. I'm trying not to focus on how much we cover but trying to cover what we do cover well. We will get as far as we get, I'm more concerned about the how over the what and I'd rather prioritize lit over other content so that is how I'm prioritizing our time. I've not done any formal content with dd so I'm not sure how it will go IRT combining vs separate, it really isn't a priority to me yet so it is too soon to tell what will work in that department. I'm gearing what I do towards ds and dd is tagging along

[enchantedhome]

This thread is addressing a lot of issues I have floating in my head. Following with interest.

[justamouse]

How did you train your kids to be VERY good at getting stuff done.  My dd, who loves reading/history/lit glazes over during math and grammar.  I ruins our whole morning....she is SO SLOW.  While my almost 9yo ds rushes through his basics so fast that today I realized he isn't really mastering anything.  He just gets it done without the learning part.  :/

 

Habit forming and praising hard work. Always praise the effort, not the result. As the work gets harder they learn perseverance. They also know that some stuff, though you may not be inclined to do it, still needs to be done, and done to the best of your ability. There are very few of us who wholly love everything we do. A part of maturity is learning to do what needs to be done, and doing it well because it is who you are and your work ethic. 

 

 

To me, this is a crucial thing that's missing from the CiRCE discussions.  The curriculum is supposed to be integrated, and literature is supposed to be at the core, so it just makes sense to have our own literary selections be the basis for the other language arts (including writing).  But unless you go with CM, there's no plan for actually doing this. 

 

And it's not just a question of principles, or confidence.  At this point, after researching and contemplating this for years, I've developed a pretty solid sense of what my children should be learning, how to teach it, and what books to use.   It's the planning, organization, and record-keeping -- for multiple ages at once, and amid all the business of everyday life -- that gets me every time. 

 

If someone can solve this, then I'll start sharing real-life examples of this way of teaching, both from our own homeschool and from authors who take a similar approach.  Until that point, I think it might do more harm than good.  

 

We have a smart bunch of mothers here.  We need to pull together on this.  Because I'm not seeing any leadership in this area from the "classical education experts."   I have this strange feeling that the "experts" = us.  

 

You are right, the experts are us. 

 

I don't grade my children at all, so I don't have anything to write down (this segues into the habit of working hard. They're not working for a grade). They work at it until I am satisfied that their work is an A. It is the best effort and command of what ever it is I am teaching them. 

 

I HATE lesson plans. I buy a lesson planner every year, and I never, ever use them. So I don't plan. I have a huge yearly plan, with book lists and my notebook of MY notes that I've made, but there is nothing I open every week and write all of my lessons out in. I can't work like that, I've tried so I just do it the way that works for me. 

 

As far as organizing their work, I use three ring binders. And then I only keep what is a snapshot of their year, and I throw the rest out at the end of the year. I have color coded binders for every child (V3 gets all brown, for example), and they use the same ones every year. Come September, they're all empty and waiting for another year's worth of work. Don't get the plastic covered ones, get the decent paper covered ones. They hold up better. 

 

 

I agree that integration ought to be the easier and less time-consuming approach.  I'm going to guess that the reverse appears to be true because the mainstream homeschooling paradigm is based on "using materials," rather than on passing on our own knowledge to our children.  

 

Looking back over the posts, my sense is that there's a fundamental conflict in this thread.

 

On the one hand, there's an explicit assumption that we're supposed to be liberated from workbooks and whatever, trusting our judgment, and doing our own thing.  Just us, our beloved children, and some great literature.  

 

On the other hand, there's an unspoken assumption by a large majority (with you and maybe Tibbie being exceptions) that it's unreasonable to think that we can actually do this without a lot of help.   Not "help" in the sense of suggestions from other homeschoolers -- which is turning out to be a touchy subject -- but "help" in the more faceless sense of CLE, R&S, ILL/PLL, LOE, B-I-N-G-O and Bingo was his name-o.  

 

Again, I'm not putting down anyone who uses these materials.  (We're currently using CHC and tweaking/supplementing.)  But there seems to be a lack of realism here.  Either we're all being called and equipped to go it alone, or it's okay to need a substantial amount of ongoing support from others.  And it seems that most of us -- again, leaving you in particular out of this -- are inclined toward the latter.  My sense is that we'd be better off acknowledging this than trying to minimize it.  

 

I think you know me well enough to know that I would help with anything that I possibly could. I don't think any of us want any mothers to go it alone, and Tibbie and I even had that discussion about there needing to be mentors. But it's SO Much better shown.  That's when it clicks for so many people. The nuance of how to do it is lost in the words. 

 

I am a really creative person. I just put stuff together. I can look at something in a store, understand how it was made, and replicate it. I have no idea how I came to be like this, but that's just how I am. I can adapt whatever materials I'm using to make it and reinterpret it. 

 

I can help show you how to do or make something, but I can't show you how to BE like that. I have no idea on my own how I'm like that, let alone to break it down into bite sized pieces and explain it. 

 

Could I have done this in my first years of homeschooling? Absolutely not. But now that I've used PLL and ILL for years, I know how to use the methods to teach, so I can take whatever it is we are using and just work with it. However, I don't know how to show anyone how to use those methods with whatever literature you are using, so I tell them to use ILL and PLL because I truly love them, and then hope that they show another mother, just like they did me. 

 

Tibbie and I are actually on one accord on this and working our rears off along with some other amazing moms to help (see Sandbox to Socrates link in my siggie. ) We are working as fast as we can, because we KNOW that help is needed. 

 

 

[ElizaG]

Sorry if I took your post the wrong way.  :tongue_smilie: And I don't think you have to design your own system to teach the Circe way. Maybe I am wrong. I don't have the time to design a system, I don't even have summers with the lawn care biz. But I can pick the best thing for me and use it to seek wisdom & wonder. 

 

Well, I'm not sure there is one "Circe way" to teach.  But I agree about the time thing.   What I'm thinking about above is probably more of a long term project.  

 

A more feasible solution could be to have each child work through grade-level language arts texts, but replace some or all of the given exercises with ones based on the literature we've been studying.   This is kind of what we're doing with CHC, though I'm not so much replacing their exercises as supplementing them (which is an advantage of choosing a "lighter" curriculum).   

 

But I haven't seen this sort of halfway approach discussed in these threads, either.   Maybe people are doing this and just not saying anything?  

[ElizaG]

 

I think you know me well enough to know that I would help with anything that I possibly could. I don't think any of us want any mothers to go it alone, and Tibbie and I even had that discussion about there needing to be mentors. But it's SO Much better shown.  That's when it clicks for so many people. The nuance of how to do it is lost in the words. 

 

I am a really creative person. I just put stuff together. I can look at something in a store, understand how it was made, and replicate it. I have no idea how I came to be like this, but that's just how I am. I can adapt whatever materials I'm using to make it and reinterpret it. 

 

I can help show you how to do or make something, but I can't show you how to BE like that. I have no idea on my own how I'm like that, let alone to break it down into bite sized pieces and explain it. 

 

Could I have done this in my first years of homeschooling? Absolutely not. But now that I've used PLL and ILL for years, I know how to use the methods to teach, so I can take whatever it is we are using and just work with it. However, I don't know how to show anyone how to use those methods with whatever literature you are using, so I tell them to use ILL and PLL because I truly love them, and then hope that they show another mother, just like they did me. 

 

 

Maybe I'm just not getting my point across?  I pretty much know how to teach, and how to plan lessons, and how to put stuff together.  That's not the problem.  The problem is trying to carry it out with limited time, energy, and reserves of sanity.  

 

I'm not sure how this mentoring you're talking about would work, since as far as I can tell, nobody on the boards has done the "Circe-ish" thing that some of us are interested in:  a classic-literature-centered (not history-centered), integrated (including, at a minimum, all areas of language arts), multi-age curriculum.   

 

The "integrated" part is key.  Honestly, I love the way you describe your homeschool (especially the coffee part :laugh: ), but it sounds to me as if you might be putting the literature on top of what would, for us, already be a pretty full plate.  

 

"I help the peanut with her work."  What work would that be, and is it based on the literature you're reading?  Bear in mind here, I only have peanuts.  My brain is made of those orange marshmallow peanuts.   :001_unsure:  

[Monica_in_Switzerland]

Here's my take:

 

One of the fundamental problems with determining the nuts-and-bolts of "how" to do a literature centered/CIRCE/Classical/whatever-we-call-it homeschool is that the teachers (moms) have VASTLY varying degrees of background knowledge in any given subject. 

 

A large part of determining which pre-made curriculum (or if one is even necessary) depends on mom's subject area knowledge.  So a question such as "Which writing program is the most CIRCE friendly" is almost meaningless.  Many of the "big names" on these threads are women who have been teaching for well over 10 years, with 5+ children.  These are moms who have read books on writing, bought or looked at a dozen writing curricula, and are possibly educated in writing themselves (lit degrees, etc.).  So even if that given mom DOES use a curriculum (say, WWE) she is bringing to that curriculum SO MUCH additional subject knowledge, as well as additional teaching knowledge from long experience, that her choice of actual curriculum is essentially irrelevant. 

 

So to say, "xyz mom who I admire for her lovely posts uses WWE, so WWE must be the most classic/CIRCE/whatever" ignores the overwhelmingly more important contribution of the mother to the curriculum vs the contribution of the curriculum to the learning environment. 

 

This goes for any subject, but LA are a big one, so we can stay with it for my examples. 

 

Integrating grammar?  VERY easy to do, assuming mom has the necessary content knowledge herself!!!  Unless mom is a grammar nerd, she will be hard-pressed to simply extract a sentence from a read-aloud and then diagram it or discuss punctuation, etc.  The mom who cannot (yet) do this can choose any of a million grammar programs and use it successfully, or better yet, work through a grammar program herself and then teach it, if she wants to integrate LA.  But there is no "right" program that is "more CIRCE" than another.  A workbook could be a perfectly reasonable approach here! 

 

By the same token, learning to ask "thinking questions" vs "comprehension questions" comes from years of experience doing so, plus the reading and mulling over of probably DOZENS of various sources, ranging from curriculum guides to philosophy to CIRCE lectures.  This is why a booklist is helpful, but is also meaningless without the content knowledge of HOW to discuss literature, specific knowledge of a particular book, learned through a guide or a lecture, etc, AND the experiential knowledge of  how to approach children of varying ages!!! 

 

Similarly with a schedule.  A mom can say, "Silent reading for 30 minutes, fallowed by 10 minutes book discussion with mom"  This information is practically useless to application.  HOW was the book discussed?  WHAT was discussed?  HOW did mom react to the reluctant child?  Those are the sorts of things being talked about in the CIRCE threads. 

 

To stop rambling... 

 

I think the self-education of the moms is what makes clarifying HOW to do CIRCE/Classical/Integrated is what makes the "practical application" questions so difficult to respond to. 

 

How does one say, coherently, "Well, start by buying some flashy curriculum.  Work with it for 6 months, and be frustrated by its limitations.  Read Pride and Prejudice to feel better about the world.  Go down a rabbit trail mentioned on the boards and read the guide to Journey Through Bookland.  Start thinking about vintage books.  Have an unrelated theological discussion with your brother that leads you to read several articles by Kreeft.  See an article about Chesterton in the sidebar and click on it.  Talk to your mom about her volunteer work in a K classroom.  Buy another writing curriculum and start it.  Click on an interesting thread on WTM.  Follow some more bunny trails.  Read a book by Willingham.  Make lots of notes and lists that will not make sense when you look at them again.  Buy an annotated copy of Pride and Prejudice and read it again.  Read an article about mistakes in writing.  Keep working through a curriculum but start to feel like the guidance is not necessary.  Try veering off the path.  Cause a child to cry because of unreasonable expectations.  Cause a nother to be bored because it's not appropriate work.  Try something else.  Do some bravewriter stuff.  Take a family vacation"

 

Just follow those simple steps, and YOU TOO can be a great English teacher!!! 

 

The methods being discussed on these threads are like an iceberg- the curriculum and schedule are the tip.  The mom's self-education both in content and methodology, are the rest.  If you've got the bottom of the iceberg, the particular look of the tip of it is irrelevant. 

 

 

 

[Monica_in_Switzerland]

p.s.  I hope that didn't come off as arrogant or anything.  I am JUST BEGINNING my self-education journey, and I thank God that I discovered the "hidden world" of homeschooling- there are some that use curriculum, and others who self-educate in order to teach ANY curriculum well.  I am but a mere snail compared to the big names here, who have so much teaching experience and education compared to me! 

 

But as Lewis Carroll says, "Turn not pale, beloved snail, but come and join the dance!"

[Another Lynn]

Here's my take:

 

One of the fundamental problems with determining the nuts-and-bolts of "how" to do a literature centered/CIRCE/Classical/whatever-we-call-it homeschool is that the teachers (moms) have VASTLY varying degrees of background knowledge in any given subject. 

 

A large part of determining which pre-made curriculum (or if one is even necessary) depends on mom's subject area knowledge.  So a question such as "Which writing program is the most CIRCE friendly" is almost meaningless.  Many of the "big names" on these threads are women who have been teaching for well over 10 years, with 5+ children.  These are moms who have read books on writing, bought or looked at a dozen writing curricula, and are possibly educated in writing themselves (lit degrees, etc.).  So even if that given mom DOES use a curriculum (say, WWE) she is bringing to that curriculum SO MUCH additional subject knowledge, as well as additional teaching knowledge from long experience, that her choice of actual curriculum is essentially irrelevant. 

 

So to say, "xyz mom who I admire for her lovely posts uses WWE, so WWE must be the most classic/CIRCE/whatever" ignores the overwhelmingly more important contribution of the mother to the curriculum vs the contribution of the curriculum to the learning environment. 

 

This goes for any subject, but LA are a big one, so we can stay with it for my examples. 

 

Integrating grammar?  VERY easy to do, assuming mom has the necessary content knowledge herself!!!  Unless mom is a grammar nerd, she will be hard-pressed to simply extract a sentence from a read-aloud and then diagram it or discuss punctuation, etc.  The mom who cannot (yet) do this can choose any of a million grammar programs and use it successfully, or better yet, work through a grammar program herself and then teach it, if she wants to integrate LA.  But there is no "right" program that is "more CIRCE" than another.  A workbook could be a perfectly reasonable approach here! 

 

By the same token, learning to ask "thinking questions" vs "comprehension questions" comes from years of experience doing so, plus the reading and mulling over of probably DOZENS of various sources, ranging from curriculum guides to philosophy to CIRCE lectures.  This is why a booklist is helpful, but is also meaningless without the content knowledge of HOW to discuss literature, specific knowledge of a particular book, learned through a guide or a lecture, etc, AND the experiential knowledge of  how to approach children of varying ages!!! 

 

Similarly with a schedule.  A mom can say, "Silent reading for 30 minutes, fallowed by 10 minutes book discussion with mom"  This information is practically useless to application.  HOW was the book discussed?  WHAT was discussed?  HOW did mom react to the reluctant child?  Those are the sorts of things being talked about in the CIRCE threads. 

 

To stop rambling... 

 

I think the self-education of the moms is what makes clarifying HOW to do CIRCE/Classical/Integrated is what makes the "practical application" questions so difficult to respond to. 

 

How does one say, coherently, "Well, start by buying some flashy curriculum.  Work with it for 6 months, and be frustrated by its limitations.  Read Pride and Prejudice to feel better about the world.  Go down a rabbit trail mentioned on the boards and read the guide to Journey Through Bookland.  Start thinking about vintage books.  Have an unrelated theological discussion with your brother that leads you to read several articles by Kreeft.  See an article about Chesterton in the sidebar and click on it.  Talk to your mom about her volunteer work in a K classroom.  Buy another writing curriculum and start it.  Click on an interesting thread on WTM.  Follow some more bunny trails.  Read a book by Willingham.  Make lots of notes and lists that will not make sense when you look at them again.  Buy an annotated copy of Pride and Prejudice and read it again.  Read an article about mistakes in writing.  Keep working through a curriculum but start to feel like the guidance is not necessary.  Try veering off the path.  Cause a child to cry because of unreasonable expectations.  Cause a nother to be bored because it's not appropriate work.  Try something else.  Do some bravewriter stuff.  Take a family vacation"

 

Just follow those simple steps, and YOU TOO can be a great English teacher!!! 

 

The methods being discussed on these threads are like an iceberg- the curriculum and schedule are the tip.  The mom's self-education both in content and methodology, are the rest.  If you've got the bottom of the iceberg, the particular look of the tip of it is irrelevant. 

 

It's not enough just to "like" your post, so I'm quoting it.  YES!  Very well said!  :iagree:

 

 

[Tress]

Here's my take:

 

One of the fundamental problems with determining the nuts-and-bolts of "how" to do a literature centered/CIRCE/Classical/whatever-we-call-it homeschool is that the teachers (moms) have VASTLY varying degrees of background knowledge in any given subject.

 

A large part of determining which pre-made curriculum (or if one is even necessary) depends on mom's subject area knowledge. So a question such as "Which writing program is the most CIRCE friendly" is almost meaningless. Many of the "big names" on these threads are women who have been teaching for well over 10 years, with 5+ children. These are moms who have read books on writing, bought or looked at a dozen writing curricula, and are possibly educated in writing themselves (lit degrees, etc.). So even if that given mom DOES use a curriculum (say, WWE) she is bringing to that curriculum SO MUCH additional subject knowledge, as well as additional teaching knowledge from long experience, that her choice of actual curriculum is essentially irrelevant.

I loved your whole posted, but snipped some of it because of length!

 

Different background knowledge and even just 'different background' in general. I'm not American and when I hear 'classical education', I can NOT fathom something without classical languages. So nice relaxed schedules of lots of Morning Time and content subjects in the morning with all kids together, followed by a short session of Math & LA after lunch....without any mention of studying Latin/Greek or any modern foreign languages.....boggles my mind.

 

Learning a foreign language (classical or modern) takes a. lot. of. time. (Studying some vocab or spending a year on the Greek alphabeth isn't studying a language, it's playing with a language. Which is fun ;), but not what I'm thinking about. Studying a language 'as a family' (a new-to-me expression I have been seeing lately) which seems to mean that everyone studies at the same level, is also incomprehensible to me. A 12yo should be on a comletely different level of foreign language study as a 7yo.) Studying several foreign languages, which we have to, will garantee I will never be able to spend hours on Morning Time.

 

I love reading Circe threads, I always find some inspiration. I have read most of the books recommended, listened to lectures. Like other posters I would also love to see more practical how-to-do-this-stuff, on the other hand the practical day-to-day schedules give me a nervous breakdown :lol:, so maybe I should better stick with theory :D.

[Soror]

Tress, fwiw I think classical studies involve studying languages as well but I would prefer to do that once the basics are established. I also don't plan on jumping right into an hr a day study. I think a lot are at a similar point, so we can only give examples based on where we are, of course it will have to tweak once we are there, as it has all along. It is a constant re-shifting and prioritizing to fit everything in there. 

 

Eliza- I have to say you have me a bit befuddled on one hand I hear you saying that we all should really be totally integrated but then also acknowledging to do so for most of us if difficult and sometimes rather impossible. I don't know if your arguing that anything less than total integration isn't really classical or that we should loosen up a bit, especially considering that you yourself are coming from the point of a packaged curriculum. 

 

I think we need to remember here is that we are not some ancient classical school teacher but mothers and wives as well. We have children, (many of us have multiple) this isn't some theory or our pet project. I think many of us are striving towards that goal but as Monica said in order to be that integrated one has to have a large amount of knowledge that most of us just don't have. So, we use and tweak and tweak some more. I think that is the half-way point, that is the continuum. Perhaps the goal is that we are fully integrated or perhaps we realize that sometimes an already written program can meet our goals. 

[Mrs. A]

I loved your whole posted, but snipped some of it because of length!

 

Different background knowledge and even just 'different background' in general. I'm not American and when I hear 'classical education', I can NOT fathom something without classical languages. So nice relaxed schedules of lots of Morning Time and content subjects in the morning with all kids together, followed by a short session of Math & LA after lunch....without any mention of studying Latin/Greek or any modern foreign languages.....boggles my mind.

 

 

 

I realize you probably weren't directing this at me specifically, but since you described almost exactly what we currently do, I just thought I would point out that my kids are too little yet for classical languages. The plan is to start Latin when they're ready and hopefully learn Greek later as well. I am currently learning Greek and Arabic myself, and plan to begin Latin next, so hopefully I'll be ready to teach them when the time comes. :)

[Monica_in_Switzerland]

I realize you probably weren't directing this at me specifically, but since you described almost exactly what we currently do, I just thought I would point out that my kids are too little yet for classical languages. The plan is to start Latin when they're ready and hopefully learn Greek later as well. I am currently learning Greek and Arabic myself, and plan to begin Latin next, so hopefully I'll be ready to teach them when the time comes. :)

 

I'm like you.  We won't start another language until we can drop another mom intensive subject and/or the kids are significantly more independent.  We have two family languages, and THAT is crazy enough to try to juggle!

 

Also, this is EXACTLY what I mean.  There is mom A who wants her children to learn Latin and picks up a video-based curriculum because her priorities or interests don't allow her to learn/teach Latin.  There is mom B who studies Latin 5 years before she plans to introduce it to her kids so that she can facilitate their learning in a real way.  I'm not making a judgement call on this-is-better-than-that: we all have to make priorities and stick to them- but one of these moms is going to be significantly more helpful to her children in answering their questions and helping them explore the topic! 

 

For me, in this moment in my life, I have chosen to put self-education in history on the back burner.  It doesn't interest me for one, and I don't have the time for another.  I do try to make rich history resources available for my kids and not pass on my dislike.  :-)  I have decided my time is better spent waking my English and French grammar knowledge up from its long slumber, learning to teach math well to small children, and learning to create/engage in meaningful discussion of literature with the kids.  This means the curriculum I choose for history is more "important" in my mind, because I know it is the main resource for that subject.  I consider myself to be the main resource for the other subjects, and so I stress much less about the curriculum I choose (if any) for those. 

[Mommyfaithe]

 

Justamouse: sometimes I think we could switch places in our homeschools and our kids wouldn't even notice!!! Lol.

 

Maybe instead of materials, we can talk methods. For me, materials are secondary to method. My methods have taken years to develop. They are natural to me. They transfer to my kids because they are part of my mentorship, and thus become part of daily conversation and lessons. Spelling, grammar, mechanics of writing, memory verses, vocabulary, literary devices etc are part of our daily learning. Each child needs focus on some particular part depending on age and stage, so programs or workbooks become somewhat useless to me in my individual mentorship position. At best they have been a waste of time and money... At worst burdensome and harmful to our relationship.

 

I do have goals and the means to attain those goals because I have gathered years of experience. It is not a magic formula or pill. Sometimes I feel badly for my oldest dd because she was my practice kid. I made mistakes, but she came out just fine. The end result was a genuinely awesome adult who reads, communicates and creates. She is a happy, fulfilled adult, so I didn't screw up too bad.

 

A big part of teaching without the safety net is knowing that sometimes you are going to free fall, sometimes what you are doing is going to baffle the snot out of other educators, sometimes you will question yourself, hopefully you can without doubting yourself.

 

Moms who want to teach this way need to become students themselves. You can not give what you do not have. If you do not know grammar, you cannot teach grammar. If you do not understand or relate to literature, you can not pass on what you do not have within you. That does not mean that you have had to read every book or piece of great literature before approaching lit with your kids, but you must reach into it and keep your mind open to having it touch you in a new and different way each time.

 

Opening our own minds, becoming mentor and scholar, absorbing beauty, wrestling ideas and ideologies, living in a lifestyle that is beautiful for you. Peace comes from tuning into the energy of your family: it needs to be organic, natural and their needs to be a heart connect. Those things can not be taught, but can be modeled.

So, I come from a place of modeling to my kids my journey and my struggles. I try to keep it very real. Learning does not end after 12 or 16 years of focused study. It continues, hopefully for a lifetime. I see my job as a homeschooling mom is to equip my children with the tools they need to become happy, healthy, productive human beings. With an eye to that purpose, I look at homeschooling as an opportunity to create those things in my own life as well.

 

I need to run, but will be back later. Enjoying the conversation and remembering being that very young mom with a house full of little hooligans ( my kids are not the wide eyed sit and listen to mamma type of kids!) wondering how I was going to pull this whole thing off. I think this is a conversation worth having and I really hope I can be a helpful part of it.

Faithe

 

 

Habit forming and praising hard work. Always praise the effort, not the result. As the work gets harder they learn perseverance. They also know that some stuff, though you may not be inclined to do it, still needs to be done, and done to the best of your ability. There are very few of us who wholly love everything we do. A part of maturity is learning to do what needs to be done, and doing it well because it is who you are and your work ethic.

 

 

 

You are right, the experts are us.

 

I don't grade my children at all, so I don't have anything to write down (this segues into the habit of working hard. They're not working for a grade). They work at it until I am satisfied that their work is an A. It is the best effort and command of what ever it is I am teaching them.

 

I HATE lesson plans. I buy a lesson planner every year, and I never, ever use them. So I don't plan. I have a huge yearly plan, with book lists and my notebook of MY notes that I've made, but there is nothing I open every week and write all of my lessons out in. I can't work like that, I've tried so I just do it the way that works for me.

 

As far as organizing their work, I use three ring binders. And then I only keep what is a snapshot of their year, and I throw the rest out at the end of the year. I have color coded binders for every child (V3 gets all brown, for example), and they use the same ones every year. Come September, they're all empty and waiting for another year's worth of work. Don't get the plastic covered ones, get the decent paper covered ones. They hold up better.

 

I think you know me well enough to know that I would help with anything that I possibly could. I don't think any of us want any mothers to go it alone, and Tibbie and I even had that discussion about there needing to be mentors. But it's SO Much better shown. That's when it clicks for so many people. The nuance of how to do it is lost in the words.

 

I am a really creative person. I just put stuff together. I can look at something in a store, understand how it was made, and replicate it. I have no idea how I came to be like this, but that's just how I am. I can adapt whatever materials I'm using to make it and reinterpret it.

 

I can help show you how to do or make something, but I can't show you how to BE like that. I have no idea on my own how I'm like that, let alone to break it down into bite sized pieces and explain it.

 

Could I have done this in my first years of homeschooling? Absolutely not. But now that I've used PLL and ILL for years, I know how to use the methods to teach, so I can take whatever it is we are using and just work with it. However, I don't know how to show anyone how to use those methods with whatever literature you are using, so I tell them to use ILL and PLL because I truly love them, and then hope that they show another mother, just like they did me.

 

Tibbie and I are actually on one accord on this and working our rears off along with some other amazing moms to help (see Sandbox to Socrates link in my siggie. ) We are working as fast as we can, because we KNOW that help is needed.

 

 

[8filltheheart]

Different background knowledge and even just 'different background' in general. I'm not American and when I hear 'classical education', I can NOT fathom something without classical languages. So nice relaxed schedules of lots of Morning Time and content subjects in the morning with all kids together, followed by a short session of Math & LA after lunch....without any mention of studying Latin/Greek or any modern foreign languages.....boggles my mind.

 

Learning a foreign language (classical or modern) takes a. lot. of. time. (Studying some vocab or spending a year on the Greek alphabeth isn't studying a language, it's playing with a language. Which is fun ;), but not what I'm thinking about. Studying a language 'as a family' (a new-to-me expression I have been seeing lately) which seems to mean that everyone studies at the same level, is also incomprehensible to me. A 12yo should be on a comletely different level of foreign language study as a 7yo.) Studying several foreign languages, which we have to, will garantee I will never be able to spend hours or Morning Time.

 

I love reading Circe threads, I always find some inspiration. I have read most of the books recommended, listened to lectures. Like other posters I would also love to see more practical how-to-do-this-stuff, on the other hand the practical day-to-day schedules give me a nervous breakdown :lol:, so maybe I should better stick with theory :D.

Tress, I just wanted to share that from my perspective that teaching from a state of rest does not equate with low-intensity. We are relaxed, but my use of the word does not translate into easy or less academically involved. It is just different from ps methodology. For me, teaching from a state of rest is being internally relaxed bc I have confidence in what I am doing so no energy is wasted 2nd guessing or mental anxiety bc I am constantly wanting to know how we compare to other schools. Relaxed means that I control pace, content, and output without external pressures.

 

And, in terms of studying foreign languages, yes, I agree with you, so would my dd who has to really juggle her schedule to keep everything afloat.

[Tress]

I realize you probably weren't directing this at me specifically, but since you described almost exactly what we currently do, I just thought I would point out that my kids are too little yet for classical languages. The plan is to start Latin when they're ready and hopefully learn Greek later as well. I am currently learning Greek and Arabic myself, and plan to begin Latin next, so hopefully I'll be ready to teach them when the time comes. :)

I wasn't directing my post at you and certainly not as a criticism! :grouphug: I really like your description of your day and the way it is structured seems to be very much Circe-ideal. Actually it looks very similar to what I'm doing with my K-er. But even my 7yo is already spending more time in foreign language (English) instruction than in Dutch LA. So this Circe-ideal model is *in my situation* only applicable in K-1st. Therefore if that is what is shown as 'the model'.....it is *to me* quiet frustration inducing :D.

 

BTW, I think it is GREAT you are studying Greek and Arabic! It will be so helpful!!

I have been working on Latin and Greek for a while, I'm more or less at the reading texts stage in Latin, but with Greek I'm still battling grammar :D. I can already tell that this self-ed has been hugely helpfull, there are only school-curricula available for Latin & Greek here, which all assume a teacher with a degree in classics (TMs don't even contain the translations of the texts) so I would absolutely not have been able to teach my dd10 the Latin I have, if not for my self-ed of the last few years.

[Tress]

Justamouse: sometimes I think we could switch places in our homeschools and our kids wouldn't even notice!!! Lol.

 

Maybe instead of materials, we can talk methods. For me, materials are secondary to method. My methods have taken years to develop. They are natural to me. They transfer to my kids because they are part of my mentorship, and thus become part of daily conversation and lessons. Spelling, grammar, mechanics of writing, memory verses, vocabulary, literary devices etc are part of our daily learning. Each child needs focus on some particular part depending on age and stage, so programs or workbooks become somewhat useless to me in my individual mentorship position. At best they have been a waste of time and money... At worst burdensome and harmful to our relationship.

 

<snip>

 

I need to run, but will be back later. Enjoying the conversation and remembering being that very young mom with a house full of little hooligans ( my kids are not the wide eyed sit and listen to mamma type of kids!) wondering how I was going to pull this whole thing off. I think this is a conversation worth having and I really hope I can be a helpful part of it.

Faithe

 

 

 

Loved your post, Faithe!

 

Tress, I just wanted to share that from my perspective that teaching from a state of rest does not equate with low-intensity. We are relaxed, but my use of the word does not translate into easy or less academically involved. It is just different from ps methodology. For me, teaching from a state of rest is being internally relaxed bc I have confidence in what I am doing so no energy is wasted 2nd guessing or mental anxiety bc I am constantly wanting to know how we compare to other schools. Relaxed means that I control pace, content, and output without external pressures.

 

And, in terms of studying foreign languages, yes, I agree with you, so would my dd who has to really juggle her schedule to keep everything afloat.

 

Thanks, 8. I'm slowly starting to get to that place of confidence when I look at what we are doing, seeing the learning that takes place, seeing my daughters grow. I think it's a place I need to grow into.

 

Side note: I used to be quiet good at ignoring external pressure. That all crumpled when last summer our Secretary of Education announced plans to make homeschooling illegal. It has been a difficult year.

[ScoutTN]

A big part of teaching without the safety net is knowing that sometimes you are going to free fall, sometimes what you are doing is going to baffle the snot out of other educators, sometimes you will question yourself, hopefully you can without doubting yourself.

 

Moms who want to teach this way need to become students themselves. You can not give what you do not have. If you do not know grammar, you cannot teach grammar. If you do not understand or relate to literature, you can not pass on what you do not have within you. That does not mean that you have had to read every book or piece of great literature before approaching lit with your kids, but you must reach into it and keep your mind open to having it touch you in a new and different way each time.

 

Opening our own minds, becoming mentor and scholar, absorbing beauty, wrestling ideas and ideologies, living in a lifestyle that is beautiful for you. Peace comes from tuning into the energy of your family: it needs to be organic, natural and their needs to be a heart connect. Those things can not be taught, but can be modeled.

 

I love this!

 

Part of the Circe journey for me has been the excitement of becoming a student again - especially as I look forward to having a logic stage student in a few years - I am starting with what I know I can do, literature and Latin. With a generous serving of books and lectures to keep me focused on the big picture.

 

For now, with a month of school left until our summer break, I am not making any big changes. Just being a more peaceful, focused mommy because I have the big picture in my mind and heart.

[Soror]

And, in terms of studying foreign languages, yes, I agree with you, so would my dd who has to really juggle her schedule to keep everything afloat.

I'd love to hear more about the juggling personally. As I said I'm not doing formal content yet with anyone but my oldest (my next is just now in 1st-2nd next year) and my oldest hasn't delved into foreign language yet (we've been working on establishing fluent reading and then a base in grammar) so we have the luxury of being able to take the time to enjoy it all. I've realized with this time we have I want to spend it focusing on literature but I wonder how it will play out as they get older and there is more to add.

 

Hearing how various moms schedule their day is helpful, even if the specifics don't work exactly. I loved hearing how Brianna plans and how you plan, even though they are entirely different. Seeing examples of various ways people are able to make things work gives me more thought as to how it *could* work. I think that is partly why threads like these are so valuable. Yes, part is the how that is so much more but there is also the nuts and bolts, the logistics of juggling it all that can be even more daunting at times. 

 

Also, another big thanks to all for sharing. I know that your lives are even more full than my own and your time and effort are appreciated. I know that myself and many others pore over those old posts again and again.

[justamouse]

Tress, I just wanted to share that from my perspective that teaching from a state of rest does not equate with low-intensity. We are relaxed, but my use of the word does not translate into easy or less academically involved. It is just different from ps methodology. For me, teaching from a state of rest is being internally relaxed bc I have confidence in what I am doing so no energy is wasted 2nd guessing or mental anxiety bc I am constantly wanting to know how we compare to other schools. Relaxed means that I control pace, content, and output without external pressures.

 

And, in terms of studying foreign languages, yes, I agree with you, so would my dd who has to really juggle her schedule to keep everything afloat.

THIS. I get SO FURIOUS when I hear mom's talking about teaching from rest and then it sounds like all airy puffy clouds. 

 

No. This is hard work. This is up before the kids reading, and sacrificing your time to pour over their lessons. It is sacrificing the fun over the summer (for me) to compile lists and write notes. It's letting the house get trashed because schooling comes first. It's saying no to all of the fun stuff you could do--and this is where I feel guilty most of the time--because You, Mom, have to study so that you can teach. How I get around this is stuff like the fishing, and time outdoors. I read, they fish. Thankfully, I, for the most part, like the research and reading. 

 

I am relaxed because I am well prepared. I have done my job, and I am not that often caught unaware. I am confident because I am well prepared. I am in a state of rest because I have done my part, and I know God will show up for the day. I know that even with mistakes, He writes straight with crooked lines, and that as long as I'm doing my part in good faith and to the best of my ability, God will fill in my gaps. 

 

 

 

 

[Amy Jo]

Haha - I've been working on learning Latin for years, and I chose a video course (Visual Latin) because it saves me time, but more importantly, I like its goal (reading Latin) and that it meshes with my favorite program, Lingua Latina.

 

Anyway, I bounce between kids. Audio books are just wonderful. I also have an independent 10yo who is a very good reader. I try to start with reading instruction for my 11yo and do a reading (or 2) with him. I broke his books into 4 readings a day, 2-3 with me, the others are audiobooks. I spend most of my time with him, due to his reading issues and also educating myself alongside him. My 7yo doesn't have a lot of work, 1-2 readings (some we do as a family because the older boys missed them) plus reading, math and copywork (which is low key, I'd rather have a couple well-formed words than a page of scribbles). I check in with my 10yo, he comes to narrate and do his math. Our schedule/routine is very much in flex right now.

 

Oh, I don't generally get stressed out. I don't know why. Some days I just have 'one of those days' and I'll need to take a walk or snuggle with DH to calm down, but I'm just not an excitable person.

 

It would take too much space to do all the kids, but I'll post my 10yo's schedule, which is almost plain-vanilla AO year 4. Our subjects are naturally spread out, because we have math, foreign languages, English and readings. We schedule 6 days a week because DH works 6 days a week. Oh, we do more Spanish (orally) as a group, but the older boys have written Spanish as well.

 

DAILY

Copywork (transitioning to commonplace book)

ANKI (flashcards for all languages)

MEP Math 4

Piano (Mrs. Stewart's Piano)

Drawing (supposed to alternate Drawing Textbook with map drawing, but we haven't been consistent so I may move this to morning time)

 

MONDAY

Latin - Henle, Visual Latin

Greek - Greek Hupogrammon (alphabet)

Grammar/Composition - Intermediate Language Lessons (trying this)

History - George Washington's World, occassionally Child's History of the World or Trial & Triumph

Literature - Kidnapped

 

TUESDAY

Dictation - Spelling Wisdom

Latin - Henle, reader

Spanish - The Fun Spanish

Geography - Minn of the Mississippi

History - George Washington's World

Science - Story Book of Science

 

WEDNESDAY

Latin - Henle, Visual Latin

Greek - Greek Hupogrammon (alphabet)
Grammar/Composition - Intermediate Language Lessons

History - This Country of Ours

Literature - Kidnapped, Age of Fable

 

THURSDAY

Dictation - Spelling Wisdom

Latin - Visual Latin, reader

Spanish - The Fun Spanish

Geography - selected lessons from Home Geography by Long

History - George Washington's World

Science - Story Book of Science

 

FRIDAY

Latin - Henle, Visual Latin

Greek - Greek Hupogrammon (alphabet)
Grammar/Composition - Intermediate Language Lessons

History - Abigail Adams (LOVE this book)

Literature - Kidnapped

Science - Story of Inventions

 

SATURDAY

Dictation - Spelling Wisdom

Latin - Henle, reader

Spanish - The Fun Spanish

Personal Finance - Money How to Make It, Spend It, and Keep Lots of It

Science - Madam How and Lady Why

 

Forgive any errors, I've been told if I want DH to make breakfast I have to go to the store now, so I can't proofread five times like I usually do. :D

 

ETA: My 10yo is good with languages, while my 11yo has to work more, so they do Latin, Greek and Spanish together. They also do the Money book and Madam How together.

[justamouse]

Monica, I LOVED your post. So Yes. 

 

Maybe I'm just not getting my point across?  I pretty much know how to teach, and how to plan lessons, and how to put stuff together.  That's not the problem.  The problem is trying to carry it out with limited time, energy, and reserves of sanity.  

 

I'm not sure how this mentoring you're talking about would work, since as far as I can tell, nobody on the boards has done the "Circe-ish" thing that some of us are interested in:  a classic-literature-centered (not history-centered), integrated (including, at a minimum, all areas of language arts), multi-age curriculum.   

 

The "integrated" part is key.  Honestly, I love the way you describe your homeschool (especially the coffee part :laugh: ), but it sounds to me as if you might be putting the literature on top of what would, for us, already be a pretty full plate.  

 

"I help the peanut with her work."  What work would that be, and is it based on the literature you're reading?  Bear in mind here, I only have peanuts.  My brain is made of those orange marshmallow peanuts.   :001_unsure:  

You can't. You just do the best you can. You make sure that you sleep as well as you can, because you need patience. You make sure you read what you can (I know you do) to try and stay two steps ahead of them. If you remember, you throw in a load of laundry. Take your vitamins and just do your best because that IS all you can do. You are herding cats. And you must realize that this really crazy time only is a few years, though it seems like an eternity. 

The literature part is just because they can all read very well and we are actually very quiet people (don't forget they are older!). We like a quiet house in the morning. So the lit is in the morning because truthfully, no one wants to talk to anyone else. If I had different kids, I might schedule my day differently. But I like it at that time because it accomplishes a quiet morning, AND better brain power and attentiveness. Which is why evening reading is fun reading. 

I have to run--today is our last performance, and we have a matinee today, but I will be back later to explain about Peanut. 


 

[texasmama]

To those who have described what teaching from a state of rest means to them, thank you!  As it turns out, I am already doing that.  Nice.  :)

 

The rest of it, I am still working on, and will be for a very long time.  I have made some small changes already and plan to make some larger ones during my summer planning time.   My two oldest homeschooled kids will be in 8th grade next year, so I would like to encourage moms with older kids like me that it is not too late to make changes.  I cannot have back those early years, but I have no anguish-y regrets.  They were part of the fabric of our experience and led to this place.  I wish I had understood sooner and had implemented changes sooner, but my life looked very different then so it likely was not a possibility.  So now is the time, and I am grateful I have time left with my olders.

 

When I read Tibbie's post about looking at the child in front of you and examining his heart, essentially, I thought of my oldest son.  And I have a specific question for the mamas who have seen 13 year old boys through a hard stage of cynicism and the tendency to disparage activities such as watching butterflies emerge from chrysalises,   This one of mine is such a negative one at this point.  He tends to hurt his siblings' feelings, and he is often like sandpaper rubbing me wrong.  It was NOT always this way.  In the past year or so, it has changed.  I have to work to connect with him and create positive interactions.  He has some learning struggles, but he is actually doing very well with academics.  He is responsible with his outside classes and diligent with independent work.  It is his negativity that is a wet blanket on our daily life.  He can be sweet and sensitive and insightful, but those moments are rare right now.  I suppose my question is, "Will this change?  What can I do to help him?" 

 

ETA:  I've lived through a 13 year old in my oldest dd, but she was not homeschooled.  I know much of it is probably related to changes in his body, the way he looks at the world, figuring out how he fits into it, etc.  My main concern is his negative impact on my younger two kids.  I don't know if there are really any answers here, maybe just encouragement or BTDT stories.

 

 

[ElizaG]

Eliza- I have to say you have me a bit befuddled on one hand I hear you saying that we all should really be totally integrated but then also acknowledging to do so for most of us if difficult and sometimes rather impossible. 

 

I've never said "we all should really be totally integrated."  That implies that each of us is obligated to tie school subjects together in our current circumstances, and I don't think that's the case. 

 

It's more a question of what "should be" going on in the wider discussions about education.  Integration of the curriculum is an ideal, and it's a core characteristic of classical education.  CiRCE is all about ideals, and they do mention this one.  But I don't see them talking much about it.   Or else they shift the focus from "integration around literature" to "integration in Christ."  But that isn't classical education.  It's simply Christian education.  

 

This is another major concern I have with the direction of these discussions.  From everything I've read, the curriculum and pedagogy of historic classical Christian education were very similar to those of classical pagan education.   The "integration in Christ" came from the context:  the example of the teachers and fellow students, the religion classes, the communal prayers and liturgies.  (Actual liturgies, not some modern idea of "academic practices as liturgy.")

 

To put it bluntly, the main idea at CiRCE seems to be to use literature as a means of moral training, rather than as a means of studying the arts of language.  

 

- This is not classical.  It's a modern plan, which seems to have first caught on in Victorian England (where literature was seen as a substitute for a "fading" religious faith).  

 

- Insofar as it neglects our Western heritage of languages and literatures, it's eroding our common ground with non-believers and with people from other countries.    

 

- While it might be filling students full of true, good, and beautiful ideas, it's not doing a whole lot in training them to communicate these ideas to others.  This was the goal of classical education.  Not personal growth as an end in itself, but the development of eloquentia perfecta, for the service of the common good.  Because we are fundamentally relational beings, and we relate by communicating.  

 

(Ironically, some of the American Jesuit schools are rediscovering this, just as the new wave of "classical Catholic" schools are ignoring it. :huh: )

 

So... to try to bring this back to the topic... maybe the thing to ask is, what are we "integrating" around?   What are our proximate goals for education?

[prairiegirl]

 

Different background knowledge and even just 'different background' in general. I'm not American and when I hear 'classical education', I can NOT fathom something without classical languages. So nice relaxed schedules of lots of Morning Time and content subjects in the morning with all kids together, followed by a short session of Math & LA after lunch....without any mention of studying Latin/Greek or any modern foreign languages.....boggles my mind.

 

 

 

This is us.  I have often thought that we don't fall under the Classical Education umbrella because we fumble with the classical languages.  I guess we would be classified more as a liberal arts education.  I don't know. 

 

Our lack of latin is not at all how I wanted it to be.  In a perfect world, I would have time to study latin on my own to be able to teach my children.  In a perfect world, I would have children who do not have learning difficulties. and demand so much of my time.

 

But I don't live in a perfect world.  I am not well-educated at all.  In teaching my children I have to learn right along with them in everything. So I had to make a decision, do I spend my time studying latin or do I spend my time  studying algebra, how to diagram, how to write a well-constructed paper, not to mention the pre-reading  and note-making I have to do for the literature we read.  There are only so many hours in a day.  I am only one woman.  I can't  do it all.

 

Also,  I have children who struggle with learning English, why in the world would I spend all of our time trying to teach them another language when they can't  read or write in their natural language?  

 

I really wanted my kids to learn latin.  Really. I try every year to get back on that train. But I am so exhausted with all of the other things  I am learning that latin is always that subject that gets ditched through process of elimination.  

 

Sometimes  I do wish for that perfect world. :drool5:

[Clear Creek]

Taking off from Amy's post above about specific, here goes:

 

How do you determine what is enough as far as content subjects?

 

I feel like I don't teach from a state of rest because I feel that I need to squeeze it all in. The idea of just "reading and discussing" for history and science one day a week makes me have a mini panic attack. Is that really enough? Will my kids learn enough that way? Can I teach that way?

 

I would love to do our content subjects and then focus on one/maybe two content subjects in the afternoon. But then all of the doubts I listed above come back with a vengeance and I begin to doubt myself.

 

Also a quick question for you, Amy Jo (or any one else who this fits), I have found that combining my kids for content subjects doesn't work here. How do you handle doing those things separately but still teaching from a state of rest? What does that look like in your homeschool? Work with one on history, then switch out to work with the other (my current system) or something else?

 

I think that's all for now!

 

What are your goals for the content subjects? You can't possibly teach every single thing in history and science to your children, so that can't be it. Ask a 4th grader what they studied for history in 1st grade, it might surprise you what they have already forgotten; my 4th grader does not even remember me reading her SOTW (and I read her the first three volumes!!). Ask an adult what they learned in science in 3rd grade...they will be lucky if they can even remember their 3rd grade teacher, much less the course of study that year!

 

My goals in the content subjects are familiarity with important events/people/terminology, closer study of anything that is interesting, and nurturing of their sense of wonder and curiosity in the subject. So yes, in elementary and early middle school grades I am *very* comfortable teaching history only once or twice a week; science usually gets covered more often than that because my kids have a high interest in the subject. I am not trying to cram it all in from the get-go, so I can teach the subjects from a state of rest. They are learning. :001_smile:  My children, even with this light history schedule (and total lack of timeline/date memorization) still have a basic knowledge and familiarity of history that I don't see in the adults I know.

 

Last year (3rd grade) I didn't even teach my middle child any history <gasp>. MP has the students read through the D'Aulaires Book of Greek Myths in 3rd grade instead of history, so all we did was read a chapter or so once a week. Last night on Wheel of Fortune, one of the puzzle solutions was "Mythological hero Achilles." The player mispronounced Achilles when he read it, so he got it wrong...you could tell he was unfamiliar with the name (he pronounced it atch'-uh-leez). My daughter was astonished that an adult would not know of Achilles, and I was pleasantly surprised that she remembered the details of the myth. But it was interesting to her, so she remembered it.

 

As we move into the middle of the junior high years content subjects are studied more often, but that is because the elementary skills (reading, phonics, handwriting, spelling, basic grammar) are no longer at the forefront.

 

My oldest and my middle are only two grades apart, but they do not combine well (personality-wise). My middle and my youngest are three grades apart, so I only combine them for science. For the most part, I teach all my kids individually. It is time-consuming, but less so as they grow older...the earliest years are the most difficult for bouncing back and forth among students.

 

 

Maybe I'm just not getting my point across?  I pretty much know how to teach, and how to plan lessons, and how to put stuff together.  That's not the problem.  The problem is trying to carry it out with limited time, energy, and reserves of sanity.  

 

I'm not sure how this mentoring you're talking about would work, since as far as I can tell, nobody on the boards has done the "Circe-ish" thing that some of us are interested in:  a classic-literature-centered (not history-centered), integrated (including, at a minimum, all areas of language arts), multi-age curriculum.   

 

 

Maybe I am just seeing things from a very different perspective, but in all my time studying all things "Circe-ish" I have never gotten the idea that I needed a literature-centered, integrated, multi-age curriculum. That may be a method that some people use, but it is not the only (or required) way. My understand has been that a "Circe-ish" program is not history or literature centered, but centered on the goal of developing a well-rounded individual, one who seeks and recognizes the True, the Good, and the Beautiful. A program that is focused on history or literature can help you with that, or it can take your focus off of it - for many of us, it hinders the ultimate goal and sways us from the path. A curriculum does not need to be integrated; it just needs to include the tools that can help us with our goal. Literature is used to develop the recognition of and familiarity with the True, the Good, and the Beautiful, but that does not mean that all areas of language arts need to be integrated into literature. Some people can do that, which is probably handy, but many of us do not. It does not make it more or less "Circe-ish," since it is the goal, not the method, that makes it fall under that heading.

[ElizaG]

Maybe I am just seeing things from a very different perspective, but in all my time studying all things "Circe-ish" I have never gotten the idea that I needed a literature-centered, integrated, multi-age curriculum. 

 

Sorry for the lack of clarity.  I meant it as a "Circe-ish" thing.  Not the only one.    :001_smile:

[Amy Jo]

We don't do diagramming, we do Latin. Works for me anyway. I guess we diagram in Latin. LOL.

 

I've never said "we all should really be totally integrated."  That implies that each of us is obligated to tie school subjects together in our current circumstances, and I don't think that's the case. 

 

It's more a question of what "should be" going on in the wider discussions about education.  Integration of the curriculum is an ideal, and it's a core characteristic of classical education.  CiRCE is all about ideals, and they do mention this one.  But I don't see them talking much about it.   Or else they shift the focus from "integration around literature" to "integration in Christ."  But that isn't classical education.  It's simply Christian education.  

 

This is another major concern I have with the direction of these discussions.  From everything I've read, the curriculum and pedagogy of historic classical Christian education were very similar to those of classical pagan education.   The "integration in Christ" came from the context:  the example of the teachers and fellow students, the religion classes, the communal prayers and liturgies.  (Actual liturgies, not some modern idea of "academic practices as liturgy.")

 

To put it bluntly, the main idea at CiRCE seems to be to use literature as a means of moral training, rather than as a means of studying the arts of language.  

 

Have you heard Kern's talk on The Five Paths to Great Writing? One of the paths is literature. The article you linked says classical education has an emphasis on language.

 

- This is not classical.  It's a modern plan, which seems to have first caught on in Victorian England (where literature was seen as a substitute for a "fading" religious faith).  

 

- Insofar as it neglects our Western heritage of languages and literatures, it's eroding our common ground with non-believers and with people from other countries.    

 

I don't understand the above point. You are saying it neglects Western languages and literature, AND that in erodes common ground with, I assume, non-Western culture? By not doing Western culture we have less in common with non-Westerners? I'm sure I am misunderstanding something.

 

- While it might be filling students full of true, good, and beautiful ideas, it's not doing a whole lot in training them to communicate these ideas to others.  This was the goal of classical education.  Not personal growth as an end in itself, but the development of eloquentia perfecta, for the service of the common good.  Because we are fundamentally relational beings, and we relate by communicating.  

 

Again, I don't understand. We are training them to communicate. Andrew Kern himself wrote a writing program, The Lost Tools of Writing. Why fill someone with ideas and then (as if it would be possible) deny them the ability to express the ideas?

 

(Ironically, some of the American Jesuit schools are rediscovering this, just as the new wave of "classical Catholic" schools are ignoring it. :huh: )

 

So... to try to bring this back to the topic... maybe the thing to ask is, what are we "integrating" around?   What are our proximate goals for education?

 

Added some questions in red to your post. I guess I'm not understanding this thread at all, sorry. I'm not integrating around anything, really. That's why I'm at a place of rest. I don't have to match my history, geography and science. AO does match them up some (with history) - term 2 of year 6 is really fun, it's like we are living with the Greeks & Romans. But my other two boys aren't nearly as matched up. Again with my eldest, we are reviewing things with the Book of Marvels, and learning other things we haven't officially "studied" yet. We just watched a History documentary on Napoleon. When the picture of St. Basil's Church came up my eldest immediately recognized it (I know that place!) from the Book of Marvels. I didn't have to draw all the lines for him, and I don't think I should.

 

Anyway, I don't think I'm hearing the same things others are. I do recommend Kern's talk on Five Paths to Great Writing.

[MommytoFour]

I think maybe some people are talking about integrating many things into literature because that's what some "Circe-ish" bloggers (such as Amongst Lovely Things) and other homeschool moms talk about being one of the keys to simplifying your curriculum and teaching from a state of rest.

 

For example, on Amongst Lovely Things, integrating into literature is a big part of this post below:

 

http://www.amongstlovelythings.com/2014/03/simplify-the-curriculum.html

 

However, on the Circe site, they talk about the importance of integrating in a totally different way. They talk about integrating all teaching in Christ:

 

http://www.circeinstitute.org/principles-classical-education

 

I'm guessing that's why there's some confusion about what's being asked and what's being answered.

 

(Or maybe not :) )

 

 

[8filltheheart]

FWIW, I don't have "integration" as a goal.   Integration is how they learn to express their thoughts b/c our integration focuses writing across curriculum, in contrast we don't do "unit studies" which to me is what complete integration would resemble.

 

I also don't think many of these ideas are separable.   Reading great literature can be for language, philosophy, story as well as appreciation of beauty of expression and thought.  It isn't as if I catalog things into "seeking beauty."   It is more a conscious effort to see the beauty in what we are already doing.   Reducing everything to textbook snippets reduces out real people and makes them seem more like the news clips that are not related to your own life.   Reading books and immersing yourself in the culture, people, language re-awakens the connection to humanity which is real beauty.

 

I am totally lost on the idea that somehow any of this disconnects from respecting or understanding non-Western cultures.   I didn't get it in the other thread and I don't get it here.  

[8filltheheart]

I think maybe some people are talking about integrating many things ..... being one of the keys to simplifying your curriculum and teaching from a state rest.

 

That is basically what I was typing when you were posting. :)