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how to apply this with home ed?


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The quote that caught my eye is

 

"Mr. Michaelson says traditional lecture-based teaching does a poor job of preparing students in any field for the workplace."

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/29/education/29iht-riedmeduke.html

 

Yet my 2nd son, who attended a private school where they tried to apply this ideology the last two years of high school, said that the group discussions which were supposed to be about physics, etc, etc, turned into discussions of what they had done over the weekend, etc, etc...

 

Anyway, anyone try to incorporate this ideology into their home (I do think of Jane's thread - talk, talk, talk...too) among the youth themselves....?

 

Joan

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I for one see great value in experiential science, but there is quite a difference between handing your kids a box of corn starch and a bottle of white glue and saying "Now go do an experiment" compared to having them create "goop" and then explain to your budding scientist what a polymer is.

 

Some argue that if we keep a sufficient number of good books around (maybe plant a few on the coffee table as I have been known to do), then students will stumble upon knowledge on their own.

 

Self discovery is easier with a group of highly motivated and (in the case of Duke's Singapore med program) carefully selected students. The process also requires collaboration which often runs contrary to our mentality on these shores where competition seems to be part of the educational process. In fact, "collaboration" or "group work" in a school setting involves placing Highly Motivated Student with a group of less interested students in the hopes that HMS will pull the other ones up. (HMS often seems to get stuck doing all the work. Sigh...)

 

But Joan was asking about homeschool.

 

We think that some of the science team opportunities (First robotics, Envirothon, various 4-H programs) allow students to work collaboratively and perform self discovery--when their coaches permit it. Those adult egos can get in the way, you know? This is all part of my "talk, talk, talk" mantra: ask what would happen, why, and suggest trying something, anything.

 

This reminds me of those identity proofs that our kids do in trignometry. My son's frustration is that he see me taking a look at one of these things and immediately seeing whether I should work right to left, left to right, apply some other identity, etc. He wants a cookbook or flow chart approach that tells him "if this than that". Not happening, I tell him. For one thing, my way is not The Only Way. Secondly, I have decades of experience fiddling with trigonometric identities under my belt so, yes, I see tricks. Third, if I tell him "do this", it is not helping him make the connections that he needs for that the next problem or the next section. There is a lot of self discovery that has to happen in mathematics to see the patterns within the subject. While mathematical proofs in texts are often sparse and elegant, the grunt work of mathematics is what I consider more of a blue collar enterprise: roll up your sleeves and get your hands dirty. Now, can this be applied to a group? Sure. Visit any engineering program at a university to find that many successful future engineers collaborate in their studies early on. These kids have discovered what may be news in the article.

 

Jane

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I think it is so different at home! My two older daughters will talk about The Inferno the way they talk about Lost or some silly thing on Facebook - it just sort of comes up naturally when they are reading the same books. But we don't sit around and have daily or weekly discussions as I don't plan it that way. I do bring up a few things per book when I have my daughters around so I can be sure to hear what they are thinking and to guide them a little more. And we talk a bit about their papers. Just choosing a topic leads to some great discussions! Maybe it is sort of the CM style Masterly Inactivity coming out in me.

 

I can see that mature students would handle these team discussions well and really learn from them. Otherwise, I can see that they end up being a bunch of teenagers hanging out!

 

hth

 

ETA: I just read Jane's response and then I re-read the article. And I missed the point totally so my examples are not relevant. But - I still think that maturity and interest are key.

Edited by Liza Q
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I agree with Jane and others that in order to apply this method in a group of teens, there needs to be some maturity there or the discussion will drift off-task.

 

As far as applying this method at home, I thought about how I typically teach my own kids math and science. We tend to sit together and go over the material where I explain the concept and then show an example. Then I try to come up with another similar problem and hand the floor over to them to see if they can apply what I've taught. This method brings the teaching and immediate application together, so I think that a small group/one-on-one setting is the easiest forum to have this kind of experiential learning.

 

I know they are learning with this kind of approach, but I have been worried lately because I sometimes see a dependency on their parts to wait and have me explain something they don't "get" immediately rather than trying to really hash out the issue themselves. My older one also does not do well reading a textbook on his own and figuring out the material. Truthfully, I don't think many kids can make sense of a textbook on their own (without the guidance of a teacher), but I can see that it's a really valuable skill to have and one I should be trying to encourage.

 

So, oh wise hive mind -- what do you think is the balance between these methods? How do you encourage independent learning while still guiding/mentoring when it's needed?

 

Brenda

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Jane - you are a good example and I appreciate all the ideas that flow out of your years of experience...

 

All three of you seem to be doing the "rolling up the sleeves and getting your hands dirty" about this idea! what happens a lot on the boards...we get so actively involved in mulling over ideas that people propose, debating them back and forth...even if our students aren't - we are...:001_smile:

 

It seems like the disparity can't be too great in either way...mom with all the answers...or students with no clue...like you mentioned Jane, where your son is looking to you for the answers (though I think you are doing what you should - making him work at getting that answer, resisting the shortcut)....or in the student group where there is one "hard-worker - HMS"...

 

One of the school system's complaints about homeschooling here is that students at home are deprived of this "work out the problem in a group" experience - even in grade school.....While theoretically it sounds great...it is often not what happens because even among the primary age for example, it is the strong one that everyone looks up to who leads the way, so I don't think the others get their brain exercised as much as educators would like...

 

Back to high school at home...it seems to take time and patience to not just feed them the answers, willingness to put "brain pathways" above checking off another lesson done...if the discussion has to be with us parents rather than with peers..

 

Liza - I'm glad you didn't delete what you wrote because it adds to the discussion..

 

Brenda - maybe small group is part of the key, where mom can draw out the quiet one or the less-sure one...

 

How to help them learn to think ....

 

Have to get back to my students now..

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what do you think is the balance between these methods? How do you encourage independent learning while still guiding/mentoring when it's needed?

 

Great question! I think we're discussing two things here -- ability to learn from a textbook and collaborative/team learning. I agree that teacher-led discussions are a form of collaborative learning, but I think teacher-led discussions are a very different animal from the collaborative team experiences that Jane was mentioning.

 

I guess in our house ithe amount of discussion depends on the subject.

 

Math and science -- -the kids are expected to learn it ENTIRELY on their own. I am available for questions, but questions only. I don't discuss; I only answer questions and grade work. Period.

 

History and literature -- the kids are expected to learn the material by reading on their own and by listening to read-alouds, but then we discuss the material together, hashing out themes, reasons, what the kids and I like/dislike and why we we do so.

 

Despite my love of discussions, I am very anti-group projects, though I do admit that done well it can be a powerful learning tool.

 

1) In school both my husband and I too often ended up in groups with less motivated students where we did all the work and the others watched us do all the work. To quote the student my husband did a MAJOR MAJOR project with in a sophomore engineering design class in college where the project basically WAS the course, "Jim went for the 'A' and I went along for the ride." (Yes, hubby did get the "A" and so did the kid who contributed very very little and who didn't care.....)

 

2) My older kids did Odyssey of the Mind in elementary school. The teams they were on did wonderfully in competitions and were headed by devoted women (one year I was involved), but I finally pulled them out -- they were spending SO MUCH time and basically reinventing the wheel. Yet because of the rules no adult could show them that they were wasting time reinventing the wheel. Civilization progresses because we can stand on the shoulders of giants, NOT because we reinvent the wheel anew every generation!

 

My dd has done some collaborative projects in college. Considering her non-collaborative upbringing, she has done extremely well in switching to "group-think" mode.

 

I guess that, for better or worse, we're a family of independent learners! I will say in favor of independent learning that my son has actually thanked me for requiring him to learn how to learn from a text. He had a business statistics class last semester that is the "killer class" for econ / business majors at his school. He found the class ridiculously simple -- the prof was a TERRIBLE teacher and no student could follow what he did, but ds found the text was a great teacher. He aced the class, while the actual class average was totally pathetic because the poor other kids could not learn from the abysmal prof and they didn't have the skills to learn from the text! (Yes, several of them asked how ds was understanding the material so well [as evidenced by class discussions] and when he said through the text, they were amazed that anyone could actually learn from a text without the teacher's help!)

 

Sorry -- this post wanders terribly. I hope somebody can make sense of my meanderings. 'll get another cup of much-needed coffee!

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the poor other kids could not learn from the abysmal prof and they didn't have the skills to learn from the text! (Yes, several of them asked how ds was understanding the material so well [as evidenced by class discussions] and when he said through the text, they were amazed that anyone could actually learn from a text without the teacher's help!)

 

Happy to know that your ds has mastered such an important academic skill while homeschooling.

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Great question! I think we're discussing two things here -- ability to learn from a textbook and collaborative/team learning. I agree that teacher-led discussions are a form of collaborative learning, but I think teacher-led discussions are a very different animal from the collaborative team experiences that Jane was mentioning.

 

 

 

Gwen,

 

Thanks for the great reminder and push to work on self-directed learning. I think I'm gonna need to get out of my comfort zone and just let it happen as the next one gets older.

 

P.S. -- Thanks everyone, I really enjoy these discussions about teaching philosophy and methods. I'm so thankful that we homeschoolers can adjust things as the need/want arises.

 

Brenda

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Great question! I think we're discussing two things here -- ability to learn from a textbook and collaborative/team learning. I agree that teacher-led discussions are a form of collaborative learning, but I think teacher-led discussions are a very different animal from the collaborative team experiences that Jane was mentioning.

 

I had similar experiences in college to the ones you've all described. Group projects worked the best when group members were all willing to put in the effort required.

 

In thinking about my working experience, group projects/efforts -- and there were a lot of these among departments as we worked towards the company's goals -- were the most successful when the team was composed of "experts" from various different, but related fields. We were able to collaborate towards a goal, learn from each other, and stretch the normal paradigms this way because we each brought a different perspective to the table.

 

Right now, I'm failing to see how these same goals could be achieved in a traditional school classroom, where the students have relatively little life experience and similar academic backgrounds. I could see the benefit, as in the article someone linked to this kind of learning in med school or business school because the participants are likely to have somewhat different backgrounds and are old enough to have varied life experiences.

 

It seems that a good teaching method for grad school does not necessarily equal a good teaching method for primary/secondary school.

 

Brenda

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It seems that a good teaching method for grad school does not necessarily equal a good teaching method for primary/secondary school.

 

Last night I couldn't sleep because I was thinking about this or was it the opposite, because I was thinking about this I couldn't sleep?...anyway...I'll try to articulate...

 

As a start, there are Construction projects....there are problem-solving projects (tho of course there is problem-solving in construction, but here I'm thinking math)...then there is analysis...(overlap in all these)...there could be lots more but I was in that semiconscious state...

 

I've never been involved in engineering group projects, so I can't talk about that level, but about the primary to secondary level, I'm trying to flesh this out a bit more because I think it can have implications in various aspects of our lives...

 

I think the Swiss teachers' main points are that when the students are just discussing how to solve a math problem (say a complicated word problem with many steps) as they go along, providing they are approximately "equally" talented, they challenge each other's thinking if they think there is a mistake made...in fact, if there is a healthy competition, they are checking each other's work as they go. Whereas it is much less common to challenge the teacher or adult's teaching...students tend to go into passive mode when the teacher or adult is presenting the information, answers or steps as the "expert". They just copy the notes from the board...occasionally a very awake student catches a mistake.....they want the alogrithms or "tricks" as Jane called them.

 

(So they were saying that at home, our students will never get this practice of challenging.)

 

I see the value of their point in that when a student actively is checking the info...and is "rewarded" (just with the satisfaction one gets when one solves a puzzle for example) for finding incongruities or other solutions...it seems like the learning will be retained longer and possibly in a different way...

 

But children and adolescents can have these types of group learning projects in various areas, and it doesn't just have to be in formal studies...even for the very young, when they are building sand castles together and have to discuss (this requires a certain verbal capacity) how to build it...or young teens, constructing a tree fort...where to put things and how to make it....they can come with a certain "expertise" (but without a degree).

 

If there is a group creative project (eg theater or written work), or family construction projects where our students have valuable input and ideas get bounced around...

 

Sometimes of course the student is interacting mentally with the author of a book...but unless the ideas are eventually expressed to someone - eg mom - they don't get the verbalization practice that they will need in marriage for example...

 

But if the studies are just fill in the blank, find the answer type of work, then it seems like the students will be encouraged in passivity...They do need a base of material, but when do they start interacting?

 

Jane mentioned these science types of groups which are very formalized and high performance...which are great if one has access and capability...but what about the "common man"? How do we foster active learning in other subjects?

 

I'd just started to bemoan again the lack of group experience that my teen has now, when I realized that he has actually started challenging me - not in a disrespectful way - but his French is better than mine - he's studied geometry enough now that he defends his diffent proofs...

 

It makes me want to try to encourage "expertise" (not talking doctorate level here), whether it is knowledge about certain aspects of plants, chemistry, a period in history, etc...

 

I hope this doesn't sound authoritarian because really I'm thinking aloud and enjoy challenging ideas...I like to hear the "other perspective"...

 

2) My older kids did Odyssey of the Mind in elementary school. The teams they were on did wonderfully in competitions and were headed by devoted women (one year I was involved), but I finally pulled them out -- they were spending SO MUCH time and basically reinventing the wheel. Yet because of the rules no adult could show them that they were wasting time reinventing the wheel. Civilization progresses because we can stand on the shoulders of giants, NOT because we reinvent the wheel anew every generation!

 

This is a very interesting point about discovery style learning...where would civilization be if we don't have the info passed on from the previous generations? Every day I am enjoying the inventions of previous generations and am VERY grateful (sleeping on a good American mattress eg)....but I don't know if I'm talking about this level of discovery...

 

But then again, since I don't have the experience mentioned in the article or yours in college, maybe I'm really off on another tangent?

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In thinking about my working experience, group projects/efforts -- and there were a lot of these among departments as we worked towards the company's goals -- were the most successful when the team was composed of "experts" from various different, but related fields. We were able to collaborate towards a goal, learn from each other, and stretch the normal paradigms this way because we each brought a different perspective to the table.

 

Right now, I'm failing to see how these same goals could be achieved in a traditional school classroom, where the students have relatively little life experience and similar academic backgrounds. I could see the benefit, as in the article someone linked to this kind of learning in med school or business school because the participants are likely to have somewhat different backgrounds and are old enough to have varied life experiences.

 

 

Great point, Brenda!

 

We are wrestling with the idea of signing ds2 up for a robotics team. This particular team has done VERY well in competitions and seems to be a dynamic and dynamite group of kids and mentors. Two problems -- it meets about 40 minutes away, AND it meets twice a week pretty much all year and meets close to six days a week in January and February.

 

The idea of doing "team learning" is so tempting, but the cost (time, energy, time, commitment.....and TIME) is huge. I think we are going to have him miss this experience and focus more on the mundane work-through-the-text work -- and ds2 is not willing to give up his kite designing/building/flying hobby for the robotics team.

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Your point, Joan, about students being reluctant to challenge teachers is a good one. We DO need to encourage our students to question -- and if we are the teachers, then we need to encourage our students to question us! (Which means that we shouldn't always think out the "right" answers beforehand!)

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I think the Swiss teachers' main points are that when the students are just discussing how to solve a math problem (say a complicated word problem with many steps) as they go along, providing they are approximately "equally" talented, they challenge each other's thinking if they think there is a mistake made...in fact, if there is a healthy competition, they are checking each other's work as they go. Whereas it is much less common to challenge the teacher or adult's teaching...students tend to go into passive mode when the teacher or adult is presenting the information, answers or steps as the "expert". They just copy the notes from the board...occasionally a very awake student catches a mistake.....they want the alogrithms or "tricks" as Jane called them.

 

Joan,

 

I definitely see your point here, and I would agree with it if the student/teacher relationship is authoritarian. If the students aren't allowed to question the teacher, and the teacher will not admit mistakes or lack of knowledge, then I could see this group work being benificial as long as you say that most of the students are of about equal ability.

 

 

I'd just started to bemoan again the lack of group experience that my teen has now, when I realized that he has actually started challenging me - not in a disrespectful way - but his French is better than mine - he's studied geometry enough now that he defends his diffent proofs...

 

Isn't this a wonderful point to come to? I really see this as more of a mentoring relationship than strictly a "teacher" relationship, and I think that as kids get older into high school and beyond, it's the mentor relationship that you want to encourage.

 

I am learning Latin along with my son. I do have a bit of an advantage because of my body of experience that I bring to the table, but he really has the advantage in quickness of mind a lot of the time. We challenge each other, and we both admit we are wrong sometimes. I think that leads to growth in both of us. Ultimately, if we hit a stumbling block, then it's up to me to seek an outside "expert" to find out the answer.

 

It makes me want to try to encourage "expertise" (not talking doctorate level here), whether it is knowledge about certain aspects of plants, chemistry, a period in history, etc...

 

I hope this doesn't sound authoritarian because really I'm thinking aloud and enjoy challenging ideas...I like to hear the "other perspective"...

 

I agree about this, it's very good for kids to develop their own area(s) of expertise as they grow older. I think homeschoolers have an advantage here because they often have more unscheduled time to nurture an interest or hobby. In his early teens, my older son became the computer/networking expert in the family. He learned all of this on his own, and now he helps everyone else. He definitely has a sense of self esteem about his abilities here, and I think this showed through in his college applications. We heard many times over that so many of the applicants are "cookie-cutter" that it's hard to distinguish them from one another. Being unique really helps them to stand out.

 

I am at the point with my 12 yo where I am trying to help him identify his area(s) of interest -- those area(s) he will pursue in more depth as he enters high school.

 

Thanks to all who have participated in this discussion. It has really helped me to think about teaching methods and the value of various outside activities.

 

Happy Wednesday!

Brenda

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The idea of doing "team learning" is so tempting, but the cost (time, energy, time, commitment.....and TIME) is huge. I think we are going to have him miss this experience and focus more on the mundane work-through-the-text work -- and ds2 is not willing to give up his kite designing/building/flying hobby for the robotics team.

 

Isn't this the truth??? It's so hard to find a balance between outside activities and the more mundane traditional subjects. I, too, am struggling with decisions about outside activities for the next school year for my 12 yo. So many sound so tempting, but I know that too many will take away valuable learning time at home. Decisions, decisions...

 

And -- I don't blame your son -- I wouldn't give up the kite designing and flying either. It sounds really fun and cool!

 

Brenda

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