If your 9th grader never had formal logic..

[rwalizer]

where would you start? What text would be good for a student starting at this point? Ds is a struggling writer and I possibly it would help to exercise his logic and reasoning muscle. I looked at Classical Writing but I really don't want to do anymore formal grammar. Any suggestions?

[Melissa in Australia]

maybe critical thinking books 1&2. we did these books totally orally. We skipped the symbols. It went really well. It took about 10 minutes a day. You should be able to get through both books in one year .

[Leanna Tomlinson]

I heard SWB speak this weekend and someone in the audience asked the same question you did. She recommended Traditional Logi I&II by Memoria Press.

 

I would start with Fallacy Detective. It helps your student to understand the various fallacies and presents them in a very gentle way. My 3 teenagers did this and then moved on to Traditional Logic I &II. All three of my dc said that Fallacy Detective made Traditional Logic easier.

 

HTH,

Leanna

[Jean in Wisc]

We do Traditional Logic I & II in either 9th or 10th grade. BTW, one can easily get book 1 done in a semester, but book II seems to take a bit longer. I bought the DVDs for myself because my oldest child was able to whip through the book faster than I was. LOL! We listened to them together on Monday and then did the exercises throughout the week. Great program!

 

Jean

[Beth in Central TX]

Jean--Did you use the videos for TLI or just TLII? I'm trying to decide what I'll need to purchase. Thanks! ~Beth

[Jean in Wisc]

Jean--Did you use the videos for TLI or just TLII? I'm trying to decide what I'll need to purchase. Thanks! ~Beth

 

I did not use the DVDs for TLI the first time through the program; I did use them for TLII. That worked well enough.

 

With child #2 I purchased the DVD for TLI--the main reason was that we could watch them together and that was my review of the chapter so that if he had questions, I was up to date on what he was doing.

 

This worked well for me...but then sometimes my old mind does not grasp it all the first time around. LOL! The DVDs make me look like I know what I'm doing. :)

 

Jean

[Julieofsardis]

It amazes me daily that the questions asked are the very ones that I need answered. This forum is so invaluable. This thread is helpful, but now I'm confused.

 

Why did you go with Traditional Logic instead of Introductory and Intermediate Logic from Canon Press, or was this even a consideration?

 

I've looked at both samples online and am favoring the Canon Press resources. Of course, I know nothing about the subject except what I've read on this forum. We did begin Critical Thinking I last year, but I didn't have the TM, so we did not get far.

 

What were your reasons?

[Jean in Wisc]

I/*

 

 

Why did you go with Traditional Logic instead of Introductory and Intermediate Logic from Canon Press, or was this even a consideration?

 

 

 

Well, I bought them both. I'm not sure if I ever sold the Canon Press or if it is still in my get-rid-of pile. We watched the first few tapes and looked at the book and then did nothing. It looked, well, boring.

 

Traditional Logic is not the most exciting thing one could do; my son describes Martin Cothran as Mr. Sleepy (sorry, Martin). But he also says the material was informative and interesting.

 

My daughter keeps telling me that she wishes the rest of the kids in her college had taken a good class in logic--according to her, they really need it!

 

Not very scientific about our preferences, but there ya have it!

 

Jean

[Janice H]

Traditional Logic is not the most exciting thing one could do; my son describes Martin Cothran as Mr. Sleepy (sorry, Martin). But he also says the material was informative and interesting.

My 10th grade daughter calls him Mr. Vanilla. We both like him.

 

I'm finding the middle of book II is getting more difficult; the answers are not cut and dry--sort of like geometry proofs. There are some old posts from Tina that I need to refer back to.

 

I am a Nance and Critical Thinking dropout. We are definitely going to be able to finish these two Cothran books.

 

Cothran makes a strong case on the Memoria Press website for not studying fallacies before formal logic. If you plan on doing a formal logic course, you could therefore skip the introduction-to-logic-through-fallacies type of books.

[FloridaLisa]

Why did you go with Traditional Logic instead of Introductory and Intermediate Logic from Canon Press, or was this even a consideration?

 

I've looked at both samples online and am favoring the Canon Press resources. Of course, I know nothing about the subject except what I've read on this forum. We did begin Critical Thinking I last year, but I didn't have the TM, so we did not get far.

 

What were your reasons?

 

My oldest three dc started with Intro to Logic by Nance/Wilson in co-op. Having now researched logic curriculum so that they can continue on their logic journey, I much prefer Traditional Logic. The Intro to Logic is symbolic logic. It does use some statements, but relies heavily on symbols. I took Logic in college and it counted as a math.

 

Traditional Logic, on the other hand, is language focused. Here's an excerpt from Cothran in Material Logic describing the difference between modern (symbolic) logic and traditional logic:

 

The trivium is language study. Grammar, the first of the three components of the trivium, is the study of the structure of language and how that language expresses itself in writing and speech. Rhetoric, the last part of the trivium, is the study of the rules of persuasion, as well as their written and spoken use. Logic fits in between these two, and is the study of the structure of thought -- and how that thought is expressed in words.

 

Modern logic, on the other hand, is largely math. A course in modern logic (and I have taught it) would begin with the study of arguments as they are used in everyday language, but would terminate in the study of how to manipulate variable symbols. But since words are not variable symbols, like those studied in modern logic (which can stand for anything), but symbols that have each a particular signification, modern logic has limited use when it comes to the study of language.

 

HTH,

Lisa

[rockala]

though I cannot recall where about using The Art of Argument. I thought this was considered Logic. A option for another program besides TL. I was considering that for my kids for next year having just finished the three Dandy Lion publications.

 

Kathy

[rwalizer]

Thanks for the suggestions.I think I'll start with Fallacy Detective and go on to Traditional Logic from there. How much time per day should a 9th grader spend on Fallacy Detective?

[Kathie in VA]

... The Intro to Logic is symbolic logic. It does use some statements, but relies heavily on symbols. I took Logic in college and it counted as a math.

 

Traditional Logic, on the other hand, is language focused.

HTH,

Lisa

 

I've read about this before and then always forget which program focused on what. hmm, okay

Introduction to Logic is Numbers or math based

and

Traditional Logic is Language based.

 

maybe I'll remember now ;)

[Leanna Tomlinson]

Thanks for the suggestions.I think I'll start with Fallacy Detective and go on to Traditional Logic from there. How much time per day should a 9th grader spend on Fallacy Detective?

 

I can't remember. I think it only took about 10 minutes per lesson, but you could do more than one in a day if you want to get started on Traditional Logic.

[Annie Laurie]

though I cannot recall where about using The Art of Argument. I thought this was considered Logic. A option for another program besides TL. I was considering that for my kids for next year having just finished the three Dandy Lion publications.

 

Kathy

 

I posted asking about The Argument Builder, which comes after The Art of Argument. I believe there's a new one too, called Discovery of Deduction. These are all from Classical Academic Press, and from what I've read online, The Art of Argument is better for 8th grade but the other books in the series seem to be fine for a high school logic .5 credit. (Each book being a .5 credit).

 

This thread is timely for me, because I've been debating between the CAP resources and Traditional Logic. The dvds with Traditional Logic are appealing since my son learns well that way.

[Julieofsardis]

Thanks for letting me butt in on this thread and thanks for the replies. I will do some more investigation.

 

Julie

[FloridaLisa]

I've read about this before and then always forget which program focused on what. hmm, okay

Introduction to Logic is Numbers or math based

and

Traditional Logic is Language based.

 

maybe I'll remember now ;)

 

;) That works! I just keep a notebook which subs as the WTM-mind when I need it!

 

Lisa

[kloumc]

I would like to recommend Logic I: Tools for Thinking by Norman Birkett. This is a fantastic introductory formal logic course that was quite enjoyable and very understandable by my two daughters. I learned so much going through it with them! You can learn more about this program at the following website: http://www.classicallegacypress.com

[Brindee]

My dd who will be in 7th grade next year just started logic stuff with the Dandylion series this year. What would be good for her to do next? Fallacy Detective and Thinking Toolbox say they're for 8th grade/age 13 and up. So would they be too much for her, you think? She won't get help from me, I don't understand logic well! What about Art of Argument--too much for a just turned 12 yo with no "real" logic background?

 

My ds haas also not had much logic. We "played" with it a couple of years ago with the Mindbenders, so this thread is great for what I can use for him as well. I was just looking at Traditional Logic, and it seems like people like it. So is it better to start with Fallacy Detective or Thinking Toolbox (or both?) befor TL or not?

 

To the OP, thanks for starting this thread! :)

[kloumc]

What we do:

7th grade: Fallacy Detective and Art of Argument (a great combination!)

8th grade: Logic I: Tools for Thinking (http://www.Classicallegacypress.com)

9th grade: Introductory and Intermediate Logic (Nance/Wilson)

 

This sequence has worked really well for us!

 

My daughter, who is just finishing Intermediate Logic really wants to go on in her logic studies. Where shall we go from here? We've read the descriptions of Traditional Logic I and II, and there sounds like so much overlap with Nance/Wilson's material.

[Staci in MO]

I don't think Fallacy Detective/Thinking Toolbox would be too much. I've been reading reviews of other programs on the Fallacy Detective website, and I think all of their age recommendations are older than necessary.

 

My plan (FWIW - I haven't done logic before) is to do Fallacy Detective/Thinking Toolbox casually this spring and summer, then start Art of Argument this fall. Where I'll go from there is anybody's guess. :)

[Julieofsardis]

Art of Argument really is jr. hi level. Enjoyable, but "younger." I remember deciding against Intro to Logic when I heard SWB mention that unless you were really interested in minor points of calvinist doctrine, there were some parts of it that were going to frustrate the heck out of you. Well, not being so interested, I just didn't look at it any further. I have started TL 1 *twice* and am determined to get through it this summer. OTOH, both my older kids have used and enjoyed Thinking Toolbox and Fallacy Detective, so at least we've laid some groundwork. Now, to build on it!

 

I want to make sure I understand which curriculum you are referring to when you say "Intro to Logic." Is that the Nance/Wilson authored resource?

 

Thanks

[Kathy in MD]

though I cannot recall where about using The Art of Argument. I thought this was considered Logic. A option for another program besides TL. I was considering that for my kids for next year having just finished the three Dandy Lion publications.

 

Kathy

 

The Art of Argument is informal logic (fallacies). We're working on it now (8th grade). It could count as .5 credit for high school, especially if you worked on collecting and discussing fallacies found in real life, as is suggested.

[Kathy in MD]

My dd who will be in 7th grade next year just started logic stuff with the Dandylion series this year. What would be good for her to do next? Fallacy Detective and Thinking Toolbox say they're for 8th grade/age 13 and up. So would they be too much for her, you think? She won't get help from me, I don't understand logic well! What about Art of Argument--too much for a just turned 12 yo with no "real" logic background?

 

My ds haas also not had much logic. We "played" with it a couple of years ago with the Mindbenders, so this thread is great for what I can use for him as well. I was just looking at Traditional Logic, and it seems like people like it. So is it better to start with Fallacy Detective or Thinking Toolbox (or both?) befor TL or not?

 

To the OP, thanks for starting this thread! :)

 

I'd go ahead with Thinking Toolbox and Fallacy detective next. The one we did was fun with minimal to no terminology. It's a curl up on the sofa, read, laugh and discuss type of book. The Art of Argument is still fun (not as much, though), but much more rigorous.

 

I will warn you, that the authors of TT and FD are conservative, and have a bit of an agenda to push. That does add to the discussion value of the books if you catch their assumptions that they are always (or almost always)correct and they only consider other opinions only to counteract the other side. AA authors are more willing to question their own beliefs in their logic course.