If your child can master grammar in a few "seasons" with Analytical Grammar, why....

[home4school]

would you choose to teach it every year with something like A Beka, CLE, etc.?

 

I saw AG last year at the expo and heard rave reviews, so I made up my mind we would use that when the time came and have just be piddling with Winston Basic this year. (My sons are in 4th and 6th, btw.) We did use R&S thru 3rd for each and also did most of FLL 3 last year as well.

 

Imagine my HUGE surprise when I looked at samples of CLE LA for grades 5 & 7!! Holy smokes! There is no way! My rising 7th grader would be clueless! Now, I am rethinking AG. I am thinking of putting them in CLE at probably 4/5th and 6th for my oldest.

 

We only hit grammar once a week now. We have been working on learning to write a coherent paragraph. Our days drag on forever now. I really don't want to do grammar EVERY DAY, but when I see the scope of what CLE covers, especially so early, I feel I am not providing the best education possible for them.

 

You know, I don't even have a clue about a lot of the grammar I saw in the 6-7th levels of CLE LA. If I did learn it at one time, I surely don't remember it now! Just how important is it to know and when do you need to know it?

 

 

Thanks!

Kim

Edited April 13, 2009 by home4school

[HappyGrace]

:lurk5:

 

I'm pondering the same questions!

[amtmcm]

Me too.

 

My kids both had several years of Shurley grammar at private school, so I don't feel any urgency to teach grammar. LLATL was a really nice break from hard core grammar for my DD this year.

 

I'm also planning to skip grammar and focus on literature & writing during the next few years, then do AG in 10th grade to prep for the PSAT.

 

But I'm wondering how much grammar to pursue with my younger DD? We'll be doing Classical Conversations and LLATL-Orange next year. For the following years I'm considering Intermediate Language Lessons and doing a more Charlotte Mason approach for her.

 

I'd also love to hear other opinions about how much grammar is necessary?

[Ellie]

I can't figure it out. There are only 8 parts of speech and some usage thingies; why does it take 12 years to teach someone to speak and write his own language, the one he speaks every day, for heaven's sake??

 

Older dd never studied English grammar and yet managed to be on the dean's list in college, graduating with a BA in English Lit. Younger dd did one year of Easy Grammar when she was 11ish and was also on the dean's list in college. Both are articulate, literate young women. Imagine that.:D

[Johanna]

:lurk5:

[Peela]

Lol, join the club. I had no idea so much grammar actually existed!

We did AG but we spread it out, and we didn't quite finish it. I personally am not sure that most kids could pick up that much grammar in that short a time and retain it- which is why I preferred to spread it over a longer time anyway (rather than 10 weeks a year, they did it all year, just less at a time).

However I am sure I don't want my kids spending every day doing R&S, year after year, because its dry as toast and would take up a significant chunk of every day.

I guess we all find our own balance between aiming for that high goal and what we have the time for.

I think AG is a great program, and it is recommended in TWTM, so I think its standard is high. How well it is retained, I dontknow.

We have ended up with Winston ourselves for my younger. The size of the print in AG was simply too small for him- he has dyslexia and something like that makes all the difference. And he has thrived on Winston, so we are going to continue with that and do the Advanced program- both my kids will do it. They have done plenty of sentence diagramming with other programs but its not something we are going to spend the time on mastering.

Then, we may well call it quits for grammar as a separate subject.

[mktkcb]

Well, first of all, what do you mean by "a few seasons" ? Even Analytical Grammar starts with Jr. Analytical Grammar......then you move on to Analytical Grammar, which is at least 1 or 2 or 3 years depending on your pace. Then they have (and are planning) several high school review books. I get the impression that these people know that merely a "few" seasons of grammar need a few more seasons of reinforcement to become automatic :o). Which is why I began grammar early. So by the time my kids hit Jr High they can handle the big guns without being intimidated by any of it. I started my kids early with FLL, Grammar rock, and other easy fun ways of cementing a lot of the sheer memory part of things. By 2nd grade they could rattle off the parts of speech, the list of prepositions, the helping verbs etc. I did a couple years of shurley. Then R&S. Anyway, I'm not trying to make my kids look good or anything, I just want to make the point that by the time my kids get to the logic stage, I want them to be able to be learning the harder grammar/syntax stuff, and appying it to their writing.......to have them know what I'm talking about when I point out this or that problem in their writing. To be able to purposefully begin to use the grammar they know (Kilgallon's Sentence Composing books are good for this, or The Art of Styling Sentences). I would MUCH rather use Analytical Grammar as a nice complete "last review" , than as a starting point. I'm sure it is effective either way, but I personally, and from experience 3x over, vote for getting the grammar of grammar out of the way in the grammar stage, and making sure it is in long term memory. But thats just me. I may be nuts, you never know :o)!

Kayleen

[MommyInTraining]

:lurk5:

[home4school]

Thanks for the input so far. I still just don't know.

 

Kayleen, you mentioned AG starting with Jr. That is what I was looking at at her booth at the expo. She told me she didn't feel it was necessary, she just wrote it at the request of hs moms who felt they needed to "do" grammar earlier than her program recommended. She advised me to hold off until around 8th for AG.

 

I know there are so many different programs and so many different children that learn differently, I don't want to skip daily grammar with a program like CLE and then learn it was the wrong choice. CLE sample pages scared me to death! But, I just don't see how we can add another daily 45 minute subject now without dropping something else. I would be an easier decision if I could say, "This isn't a foundational skill, they can pick this up in middle/high school." But, grammar seems to me to be a foundational core skill.

 

Oh, decisions, decisions!

 

Kim

[katilac]

I'm not familiar with CLE grammar - - is it meant to take 45 min. daily?

 

I don't know anyone who makes grammar a full, separate subject; rather, it is a course in language arts. It doesn't take us much longer than spelling, and most programs either don't have to be done everyday, or, if done daily, don't have to be done for the entire school year.

 

Now I'm curious and want to look at CLE grammar? linky, anyone?

[amtmcm]

http://www.clp.org/store/by_subject/3

 

I'm on the CLE yahoo group and they recently had a discussion about how long their LA takes each day. Most people said about 30 minutes - and that includes spelling and cursive. If a person is using a different spelling program and skips the CLE spelling then it would be less than 30.

[Guest aquiverfull]

CLE Grammar - click on grade, then click on the lightunit number to be taken to the samples.

 

I was thinking about putting my dd in CLE LAs, but I have to admit that the samples really scare me too. I had her take the diagnostic test and she would have to go back to the 3rd grade level. This is after taking 2 years of BJU English and Queen's LLFEC!! So I now I'm not sure I want to put her that far back, considering she will be in 5th grade next year. She has never done any sentence diagramming. Is CLE considered advanced or is it the norm for its age ranges??

[amtmcm]

This frequently comes up on the Yahoo Group - people use the assessment and are shocked their child places lower than grade level.

 

I don't use CLE LA or Math, but I have an opinion about assessments. What the heck is a stringy sentence? Is the format of the test unfamiliar to the child? Here's an analogy: My DD used A Beka math for k-5th and I don't care for A Beka past 5th grade and was looking for something different. I used the ACE assessment on a whim and she tested into 2nd grade!!! I then used the Saxon assessment and she tested into pre-algebra. She takes pre-algebra at a One Day Academy and she has the highest grade in her class. Basically, I think she was not familiar with the format and jargon used in the ACE assessment and it threw her off.

 

I looked very closely at CLE LA & Math and they definitely cover some topics more thoroughly than other programs. For instance, CLE does a great job with geometry which A Beka doesn't do a lot of in elementary levels. My younger DD would probably miss those questions on an assessment. But *I* would put her in the level *I* think she would fit best into and then plan to do a little extra tutoring in the areas she hasn't covered yet - as long as most of the level was a good fit. I'm not recommending this for everyone, but it's what I would do. Some people also suggest just buying the 1-2 Light Units at a lower level that cover the questions that were missed on the assessment and then re-take the assessment. The scope and sequence for each level is available on their website.

[LadyAberlin]

Well I think the longer you practice the better you will retain it. It also depends on your university that you go to whether it will matter. My first semester at BJU I barely passed my English class. They were so nitpicky on commas. Every little thing they took off for. If I had been really strong at punctuation and grammar I would have been fine. This class was also a grammar class and we were having to label sentences and everything. They test you on grammar before you enter the college and if it isn't up to par you have to take a grammar class. Now in highschool I had already taken 2 freshman English classes at a well known and highly respected University and had made A's and did really well. I ended up leaving BJU after the first semester because I hated it there and I mised my family. I went back home and attended the same university I had attended in highschool and was on the Deams list and graduated with honors. So it really depends on the school. I now plan on having my kids study grammar all the way through, because I want them to really know it and be able to go to any university and do well. So yes my pre k is doing First Language Lessons 1 and he loves it and we will do 2 in K we will detour to GWG in 1st and 2nd and then come back to FLL 3 in 3rd. At which point I will decide what curriculum to move into from there.HTH

[MIch elle]

...for your family, your life and the education of yourself and your dc. NO one can decide for you.

 

That said, I decided to do formal grammar from grade 3/4 & up with my dc. I am not sorry about that decision to do English (R&S) everyday.

 

When my oldest was in grade 4, I decided to learn Latin ahead of him with Henle. I COULDN'T do it!! I didn't know (at the time) a direct object from an indirect object and what does "to be" have to do with - I am, you are; he, she, it is, etc. It was SO hard for me to try to learn Latin and English grammar at the same time.

 

This CONFIRMED what Susan told us in TWTM!! I don't take anyone's word for doing something without coming to an understanding of it myself.

 

Why English grammar everday for YEARS (or math for that matter)? Because we forget easily what isn't repeated. I do and so do my dc. With English and math, it's repeated year after year with increasing difficulty. We remember without being overwhelmed.

 

My oldest is in 9th grade at a private high school and I am SO glad he completed R&S English 7 (in gr.8)!! There is NOTHING in English grammar that is new to him. Does he get 100% on all his English grammar tests - NO! He forgot some things - Haa - his indefinite pronouns - which are plural, singular or both :lol: He did poorly on that test (I looked at his test after he got his grade 80%). Did the test ask them to list the plural indefinite pronouns - NO! The test was on - agreement: subject and verb, pronoun and antecedent. Not an easy test!

 

(I'm also glad older ds did CLE reading too. It prepared him well for ALL those literary terms in high school.)

 

With my youngest, we will be trying CLE LA 7 this fall. R&S English 6 has been difficult this year and he needs a year off from R&S.

 

HTH! :D

[littlebug42]

I have not yet reached the grade levels mentioned here so I am not familiar with the programs mentioned but I wanted to comment on the need for in depth grammar instruction. I do medical transcription for a large group of radiologists and the vast majority of them have such poor grammar that I spend quite a bit of time deciphering just so they do not sound like complete idiots in their reports. I am not even talking about complicated grammar either. Many of them have no grasp of even basic subject-verb agreement. The past seven years in this field have proven to me the need for continuous grammar instruction with my children. It is a priority for me.

[MIch elle]

What the heck is a stringy sentence?

 

Calvert School uses Holt's Elements of Language, and my older ds uses the Holt Handbook at his private high school which reference stringy sentences as does an old 1922 grammar book.

 

 

Holt: http://my.hrw.com/la/elot/0030526647/student/ch08/lg1208288_293.pdf

 

 

1922 reference to stringy sentence: http://books.google.com/books?id=aUAXAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA12&lpg=PA12&dq=stringy+sentence&source=bl&ots=hD7657PzH_&sig=MCHkWvSFwrwBoosHHJQItfRwsKk&hl=en&ei=6mTjSav_BcLonQf7rPixCQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=6#PPA12,M1

[amtmcm]

Yes, I have read it on the CLE website. I was trying to make a point that just because a child who uses another grammar program may not be familiar with the term stringy it doesn't mean they should be placed two grade levels lower. IMO, many children are able to catch up and fill in the gaps, especially in a spiral program where concepts are repeated multiple times.

[home4school]

I do appreciate all of your input. I think I have made up my mind. I am going to the expo at the end of the month and will look over the CLE LUs for 5th and 6th. I am certain my 6th grader would be overwhelmed by CLE 7, so I'm thinking just placing him back into 6. For my 4th grader, I will just look and see, maybe we will need a few 4 LUs. Hopefully, he can go into 5. I may even use their placement tests.

 

We will just have to fit it into our day somehow. I suppose doing even 20-30 minutes a day is better than not doing it at all. I really felt like we needed the break from grammar to work on writing, but hopefully we can fit both in daily.

 

Thanks again for all your help!

Kim

[MIch elle]

Yes, I have read it on the CLE website. I was trying to make a point that just because a child who uses another grammar program may not be familiar with the term stringy it doesn't mean they should be placed two grade levels lower. IMO, many children are able to catch up and fill in the gaps, especially in a spiral program where concepts are repeated multiple times.

 

:iagree:

 

When I switched younger ds to CLE math 5 from R&S math 5, I didn't use the CLE assessment test. I put him into CLE math 5 and taught him what wasn't covered in R&S.

 

I will not be using the CLE LA assessment either when we switch to CLE LA 7 from R&S English.

[Melissa in CA]

After reading all the references to CLE being so advanced, I looked at their 6th grade samples and found that BJU is just as thorough! I would have no qualms about placing my son in CLE grade 7 LA next year. I plan to stick with BJU though. ;)

 

As for teaching grammar yearly. I agree with the posters who said if you don't use it, you lose it. Going over these concepts yearly help to sink them in. There is so much more to learn than the basic noun, verb, adjective, pronoun, and adverb. So much more. I never understood the "You only need a couple years of English Grammar" proponents. That makes zero sense to me. Zero. :001_huh: Perhaps there are some students who can completely grasp and hang on to what is taught, but the average child needs constant review of concepts before complete understanding is cemented in to their wee brains. :D

 

Personally, I don't think something is true just because someone selling a book or curriculum says it is. For example, AG may be a great program, but I wouldn't wait until high school to teach Grammar! I'll stick to the old fashioned tried and true method of teaching and learning grammar...yearly teaching & review. I would have no problem using something like AG for a high school review of concepts already learned in previous years, but I would never use it as my ONLY Grammar curriculum ever. :001_huh:

 

My opinion of course.:)

[LBC]

I'll throw in my two cents re: CLE.

 

I recently switched all 4 of my dc to CLE math and LA. I didn't do the placement tests for any of them. Math has been fine, since each level has a light unit that reviews the previous level. The LA, on the other hand, has been quite challenging. My dd in grade 3 is doing fine with LA 3, but my boys are doing LA 6 and LA 8, with very little grammar background. We're taking it very slow, and spending plenty of time looking things up in the CLE English Handbook. We may need to do a few lower level light units to get them up to speed, but I didn't want to go too far below grade level, since there's also vocabulary, spelling, punctuation, and penmanship. For now, I have them copy the diagrams from the answer book, just to familiarize themselves with the process. Once we're feeling a bit more confident in the program, and up to speed on the terminology for the more advanced parts of speech, we'll learn how to diagram on our own (I keep saying "we" because most of this is new for me, too).

 

Even though it has been very challenging, I love how well CLE explains the concepts. I feel confident that as we persevere, we'll have an excellent foundation in grammar. I just wish I'd found CLE earlier.

 

Lori

[katilac]

CLE Grammar - click on grade, then click on the lightunit number to be taken to the samples.

 

I was thinking about putting my dd in CLE LAs, but I have to admit that the samples really scare me too. I had her take the diagnostic test and she would have to go back to the 3rd grade level. This is after taking 2 years of BJU English and Queen's LLFEC!! So I now I'm not sure I want to put her that far back, considering she will be in 5th grade next year. She has never done any sentence diagramming. Is CLE considered advanced or is it the norm for its age ranges??

 

Thank you.

 

I went and had a look at grade 5, and it looks pretty much on par with Growing with Grammar 5 (which we just finished), and I wouldn't consider GWG particularly rigourous.

 

I have to agree with the posters who said that placement tests can be thrown off by jargon and such. Grammar has a lot of review, and my kids go straight into GWG 4 without ANY formal grammar program.

 

All-in-one programs aren't my style, but I did like the visual layout of CLE. I had to giggle a bit at some of the stern comments: "The dots on your i's should be dots - not slashes, hearts or circles." Is there a 9-yr-old girl in the world who doesn't dot her i's with hearts? Not at my home school! :lol:

[ekarl2]

I just want to clear something up lest people get the wrong idea.

 

AG recommends grammar instruction beginning in 4th or 5th grade. We do not by any means recommend waiting until high school to cover grammar and mechanics! Optimally, AG (the main program) would be taught over 3 seasons in 6th, 7th, and 8th grade. When you're not teaching the seasons, you are using formal, planned reinforcement worksheets on a regular basis.

 

I think it's misleading to say that AG covers grammar for only a few weeks a year and calls it "done." We do make a distinction between teaching something (introducing something new) and reinforcing something (practicing and mastering what has already been taught). An AG student, taught the program according to our recommendations, would not go more than a couple of weeks without either learning or reinforcing grammar, punctuation, and usage from the time he or she begins the program through graduation. We just designed it so that reinforcement is done periodically (instead of daily) for high school since a student's time should be spent with literature and writing, not a daily grammar worksheet. If you want an idea of what an AG student is expected to know after completing the program, just take a look at the high school reinforcements.

 

I don't want to break board rules by seeming to be selling, that's not my intent at all. I just want to clear up what I felt are a couple of misconceptions.

 

Blessings,

[Annie Laurie]

 

When my oldest was in grade 4, I decided to learn Latin ahead of him with Henle. I COULDN'T do it!! I didn't know (at the time) a direct object from an indirect object and what does "to be" have to do with - I am, you are; he, she, it is, etc. It was SO hard for me to try to learn Latin and English grammar at the same time.

 

 

 

This is what changed my mind on grammar. I was in the "delay grammar" camp for a long time, and was a very relaxed hser. But I really want my kids to learn another language, it's a top priority here, and I don't see how we can without having grammar down pat. I was also one who said "I got As in all my college English and lit classes and never learned formal grammar", and that's true, but I think that was due the fact that I was always a voracious reader and had internalized a lot of things, and also due to the fact that I didn't have any instructors who were sticklers about grammar. I was a strong writer and that was enough for them, but I can't tell you how many times I knew a sentence I'd written was awkward and have to spend time fine-tuning it. If the grammar instruction had been there, I wouldn't have had to spend all that time on it.

 

I've learned so much doing grammar with my oldest son, a lot has clicked for me that I wish I'd known before. Also, I just started him on grammar in 8th grade so now it's a struggle for him-there is just too much to learn in a small window of time, and he's overwhelmed. I'm not making that mistake again with my other kids. And I don't think grammar has to be time consuming when they're very young- my 2nd and 1st grader spend 5-10 minutes a day reviewing grammar terms orally with First Language Lessons.

[Plucky]

This is what changed my mind on grammar. I was in the "delay grammar" camp for a long time, and was a very relaxed hser. But I really want my kids to learn another language, it's a top priority here, and I don't see how we can without having grammar down pat. I was also one who said "I got As in all my college English and lit classes and never learned formal grammar", and that's true, but I think that was due the fact that I was always a voracious reader and had internalized a lot of things, and also due to the fact that I didn't have any instructors who were sticklers about grammar. I was a strong writer and that was enough for them, but I can't tell you how many times I knew a sentence I'd written was awkward and have to spend time fine-tuning it. If the grammar instruction had been there, I wouldn't have had to spend all that time on it.

 

I've learned so much doing grammar with my oldest son, a lot has clicked for me that I wish I'd known before. Also, I just started him on grammar in 8th grade so now it's a struggle for him-there is just too much to learn in a small window of time, and he's overwhelmed. I'm not making that mistake again with my other kids. And I don't think grammar has to be time consuming when they're very young- my 2nd and 1st grader spend 5-10 minutes a day reviewing grammar terms orally with First Language Lessons.

 

 

I delayed grammar for my oldest and it's been a struggle for him, too. So all my other kids start formal grammar in 3rd/4th grade.

[Carol in Cal.]

My 3/4th grade teacher had us do "Keys to Good Language" on grade level, but it was not as educational as it might have been, and I think that our 5/6th grade teacher just didn't teach grammar.

 

So in the middle school class I learned the main parts of a sentence, and what nouns, pronouns, verbs, adjectives, adverbs, prepositions, and conjunctions are. This was pretty basic, and has been helpful to me a bunch of times over the years, but I wish that I had learned more. I didn't know about participles. I couldn't find all of the helping verbs. I didn't know anything about infinitives, gerunds, or appositives. We never memorized lists of anything like helping verbs or preposition.

 

Now, based on my experience I was pretty sure that I could teach grammar quickly and encourage DD to use it enough that she would retain it if I held off. But I know that memorization is easier at earlier ages and wanted her to really be solid in that part of grammar. Also, DD has always been good at composing her own stories and summaries, and I wanted her to get these grammar tools early and thoroughly.

 

So we did FLL orally (before FLL 3 and 4 were published), and she learned a few memorized definations and lists that way, and we started RS3 when she was in third grade. It was a disaster. Too much material, too much logic for her state of development, too much everything. I put it away for a while right before the chapter on direct objects, which would pretty much have finished her off. She tried again with DH, who doesn't know any grammar either. Not good.

 

So we spent a year fooling with a beta test of a proposed new grammar program that depends heavily on memorization, but which was not able to be released to us in a timely enough way to keep it going. Then she was in 5th grade, and I started over with the 4th grade RS book. That went much better. Developmentally she was more ready to learn the logic of it. And the incremental teaching meant that she was always building on what she already knew, plus the easier lessons made her feel competent. Also, she was taking German at the time in a Saturday school, and they started to cover grammar in German. She was the ONLY child in her class who knew what nouns and verbs were, and she really enjoyed feeling super-competent instead of 'behind'. So she started to regard herself as a grammar guru, LOL, and finding it easier, and moving forward more effectively. We did not do it every single day. She didn't finish the 4th grade book until part way through 6th grade, and I skipped a few chapters to start the 5th grade book at that point. She is now in 7th grade, and we started the 6th grade book just about a month ago. So that is our history.

 

My thoughts are that this subject was much harder for her than it was for me, for some reason, and that she really benefitted from that early exposure, especially the memorization. I don't think that she could have learned grammar quickly. I also don't think that she would have mastered it without a lot of repetition, so I am very glad that we started this early and did it more continuously than I did as a child. And I think that although by WTM standards she is pretty far behind, she knows more grammar now that I learned in all my schooling, and she has mastered it to the point where it's a good tool for her writing.

 

I want her to know it well enough to be able to critique her writing using grammatical terms, and not have to translate them. And I want her to do that to her own writing. Also, I want her to know grammar thoroughly (much more thoroughly than I learned it in school) and comprehensively, so that she has that much better a tool for her writing and for her foreign language study.

 

Having said that, obviously I'm not having her spend so much time on it that it crowds out much else, and once she finishes RS 6 or 7 we will stop except for reviews from time to time. We don't do it everyday all year long, and I'm not pushing her hard enough to get her up to RS on grade level.

 

So I'm on a middle path, but one that has worked out. I teach my child, not my curriculum. So glad that I started early, so glad that I stopped when she was completely overwhelmed, so glad that I used other resources where necessary, (like Editor in Chief), and so glad that I pushed but not too hard.

 

Starting late would not have worked for this child. I know that for sure. Glad I didn't do that.

[Jill- OK]

Well, first of all, what do you mean by "a few seasons" ? Even Analytical Grammar starts with Jr. Analytical Grammar......then you move on to Analytical Grammar, which is at least 1 or 2 or 3 years depending on your pace. Then they have (and are planning) several high school review books. I get the impression that these people know that merely a "few" seasons of grammar need a few more seasons of reinforcement to become automatic :o). Which is why I began grammar early. So by the time my kids hit Jr High they can handle the big guns without being intimidated by any of it. I started my kids early with FLL, Grammar rock, and other easy fun ways of cementing a lot of the sheer memory part of things. By 2nd grade they could rattle off the parts of speech, the list of prepositions, the helping verbs etc. I did a couple years of shurley. Then R&S. Anyway, I'm not trying to make my kids look good or anything, I just want to make the point that by the time my kids get to the logic stage, I want them to be able to be learning the harder grammar/syntax stuff, and appying it to their writing.......to have them know what I'm talking about when I point out this or that problem in their writing. To be able to purposefully begin to use the grammar they know (Kilgallon's Sentence Composing books are good for this, or The Art of Styling Sentences). I would MUCH rather use Analytical Grammar as a nice complete "last review" , than as a starting point. I'm sure it is effective either way, but I personally, and from experience 3x over, vote for getting the grammar of grammar out of the way in the grammar stage, and making sure it is in long term memory. But thats just me. I may be nuts, you never know :o)!

Kayleen

 

:iagree:

 

Kayleen said it well enough for me, too, lol. (I bolded the parts I rilly, RILLY agree with. ;-)

[Jill- OK]

why does it take 12 years to teach someone to speak and write his own language, the one he speaks every day, for heaven's sake??

 

..."someone" is hearing and speaking *proper* grammar every day of his/her life...then I guess you have no problem.

 

Those who didn't learn it themselves, in school, or it hear it spoken/reinforced properly as a child need help teaching it. Hence...grammar books. :-)

[razorbackmama]

I just want to clear something up lest people get the wrong idea.

 

AG recommends grammar instruction beginning in 4th or 5th grade. We do not by any means recommend waiting until high school to cover grammar and mechanics! Optimally, AG (the main program) would be taught over 3 seasons in 6th, 7th, and 8th grade. When you're not teaching the seasons, you are using formal, planned reinforcement worksheets on a regular basis.

 

I think it's misleading to say that AG covers grammar for only a few weeks a year and calls it "done." We do make a distinction between teaching something (introducing something new) and reinforcing something (practicing and mastering what has already been taught). An AG student, taught the program according to our recommendations, would not go more than a couple of weeks without either learning or reinforcing grammar, punctuation, and usage from the time he or she begins the program through graduation. We just designed it so that reinforcement is done periodically (instead of daily) for high school since a student's time should be spent with literature and writing, not a daily grammar worksheet. If you want an idea of what an AG student is expected to know after completing the program, just take a look at the high school reinforcements.

 

Thank you so much for jumping in...I kept reading where "AG says you don't need it till 8th grade," and I was totally scratching my head! We'll be starting AG next year with my then 7th grader, and we're actually going to be starting it LATE according to the recommendations on your website!

[Melissa in CA]

I just want to clear something up lest people get the wrong idea.

 

AG recommends grammar instruction beginning in 4th or 5th grade. We do not by any means recommend waiting until high school to cover grammar and mechanics! Optimally, AG (the main program) would be taught over 3 seasons in 6th, 7th, and 8th grade. When you're not teaching the seasons, you are using formal, planned reinforcement worksheets on a regular basis.

 

I think it's misleading to say that AG covers grammar for only a few weeks a year and calls it "done." We do make a distinction between teaching something (introducing something new) and reinforcing something (practicing and mastering what has already been taught). An AG student, taught the program according to our recommendations, would not go more than a couple of weeks without either learning or reinforcing grammar, punctuation, and usage from the time he or she begins the program through graduation. We just designed it so that reinforcement is done periodically (instead of daily) for high school since a student's time should be spent with literature and writing, not a daily grammar worksheet. If you want an idea of what an AG student is expected to know after completing the program, just take a look at the high school reinforcements.

 

I don't want to break board rules by seeming to be selling, that's not my intent at all. I just want to clear up what I felt are a couple of misconceptions.

 

Blessings,

 

Erin,

 

Thanks for trying to clear that up. ;) I hope you didn't think I was personally attacking AG, I was just using them as an example. I honestly have only looked at the curriculum once and remember thinking it would be a good review for the high school years when Grammar should take a back seat to other subjects. So apparently I was not too far off. :D

 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 

Some rather disjointed thoughts of mine...

 

I can't believe how many authors in homeschool magazines have been "preaching" the don't do English Grammar until jr. high spiel lately, and that just boggles my mind. Having graduated two children from homeschool I know how much they forget without yearly review. Not to mention, I used some pretty poor grammar curriculum with them because I was swayed by the, "How much grammar do they REALLY need?" group. It wasn't until I decided to pick up BJU grammar that I realized how lacking my boys were. Yikes! It was disheartening! My 11th grader could not do the BJU 9th grade English Grammar! It was extremely hard for him.

 

With my youngest son I used R&S orally for 2nd and 3rd (used Abeka in K-1st), alongside SL's "old" LA worksheets which I really MISS. Then in 4th, when I discovered BJU for the first time, I began him in BJU's English. In 6th grade he already knows more than his older brothers do who are in college.

 

I have to say that CLE looks very well put together though. I'll stick with BJU because it's what we have, but if I were looking for something new CLE would be at the top of the list.

[home4school]

I just want to clear something up lest people get the wrong idea.

 

AG recommends grammar instruction beginning in 4th or 5th grade. We do not by any means recommend waiting until high school to cover grammar and mechanics! Optimally, AG (the main program) would be taught over 3 seasons in 6th, 7th, and 8th grade. When you're not teaching the seasons, you are using formal, planned reinforcement worksheets on a regular basis.

 

I think it's misleading to say that AG covers grammar for only a few weeks a year and calls it "done." We do make a distinction between teaching something (introducing something new) and reinforcing something (practicing and mastering what has already been taught). An AG student, taught the program according to our recommendations, would not go more than a couple of weeks without either learning or reinforcing grammar, punctuation, and usage from the time he or she begins the program through graduation. We just designed it so that reinforcement is done periodically (instead of daily) for high school since a student's time should be spent with literature and writing, not a daily grammar worksheet. If you want an idea of what an AG student is expected to know after completing the program, just take a look at the high school reinforcements.

 

I don't want to break board rules by seeming to be selling, that's not my intent at all. I just want to clear up what I felt are a couple of misconceptions.

 

 

Erin, I'm sorry for giving the wrong impression of AG. I certainly didn't mean to do that! That's why I hardly ever post, I'm always getting things not quite right or explaining things incorrectly!

 

I certainly enjoyed talking with Mrs. Finley (is that right?) at the expo. She was a pleasure to talk with and I really was impressed with AG. I was just starting to panic when I began looking around at other elementary LA programs.

 

Another thing that throws me is this junior high/middle school level. Back in the day, middle school started in 7th. I keep thinking of my 6th grader as being "elementary".

 

Again, I'm sorry for misquoting AG.

 

Blessings,

Kim

[Annie Laurie]

..."someone" is hearing and speaking *proper* grammar every day of his/her life...then I guess you have no problem.

 

Those who didn't learn it themselves, in school, or it hear it spoken/reinforced properly as a child need help teaching it. Hence...grammar books. :-)

 

Something funny today: My ds8 said "Maybe tomorrow it will be more windier." Dd piped right up with "That's not correct grammar, you just say "It will be windier." She hears me correct their grammar and I guess she was really listening! :001_smile:

[katilac]

I can't figure it out. There are only 8 parts of speech and some usage thingies; why does it take 12 years to teach someone to speak and write his own language, the one he speaks every day, for heaven's sake??

 

Older dd never studied English grammar and yet managed to be on the dean's list in college, graduating with a BA in English Lit. Younger dd did one year of Easy Grammar when she was 11ish and was also on the dean's list in college. Both are articulate, literate young women. Imagine that.:D

 

Spoken language is very different from written language, and either can be casual or more formal and/or technical. Most people learn how to speak 'naturally,' but higher level writing generally requires more explicit teaching. Some students do absorb good writing skills by osmosis, but if they don't, high school is a devil of a time to try and teach them from the beginning.

 

A common frustration is for students not to know how to revise the first draft; how do you improve when you don't understand what's wrong in the first place? If your teacher is kind enough to specify what's wrong, do you want to be trying to learn and apply new rules for the first time in the midst of an important paper?

 

There are only 8 parts of speech, true, but, for whatever reason, many people have trouble keeping them straight (not to mention all the sub-types; there are at least half a dozen different KINDS of adjectives). And there are LOTS of usage 'thingies.'

 

I'm sure your dds are both articulate and literate, but I think students are best served when we don't make decisions based on ancedotal evidence. It's a big world and one can find examples of anything and everything, pretty much; there's always someone who is very good at x, y and z without following the tried and true procedures.

 

I say that as a teacher who is casual about grammar in the very early years (no formal program until 4th). But if I had observed that my kids weren't easily picking up parts of speech and simple sentence construction, we would have formalized things in a hurry.

 

I guess part of my issue with waiting on grammar (or math facts, or whatever) is that many people who take this approach don't seem to be watching for that natural progression or 'osmosis' to take place. If your child is surrounded by written language and can't put a sentence together or identify a noun, they need some formal instruction. If they aren't picking up any of the math facts at the grocery store, they need some formal instruction.

[emmsmama]

What about when your child can identify the parts of speech and diagram a sentence, yet she still says things like "more better" and mixes up the use of is/are, etc.? It drives me bonkers because I am a grammar freak and I do grammar with her 3x a week, yet it doesn't seem to translate to spoken English. For the most part it's just minor stuff that other people probably wouldn't bat an eyelash at, but I can't help but wonder why I bother doing grammar lessons 3x a week :blink:

[ekarl2]

Ladies,

 

No worries! I'm just glad you didn't get mad at me for chiming in! Our small part of the "delayed grammar" argument gets misinterpreted A LOT, so I just want to make sure others don't get the wrong impression.

 

We recommend starting FORMAL grammar instruction in 4th or 5th grade. I stress FORMAL. There are plenty of wonderful "getting to know our language" programs (FLL, for instance!) that I think are great. I don't consider them "hard-core" formal grammar for the little guys, though. But there are formal programs out there for kids as young as 2nd grade and I honestly don't see the point. Why would a 3rd grader need to know what a predicate nominative is??

 

I always tell people this. My kids will see their first formal grammar instruction in 4th grade using JAG. Before then we'll most likely use FLL for the "getting to know our language" stuff.

 

Clear as mud? ;-)

[ekarl2]

I don't disagree that some programs go hard core to early but just to be snarky.....;) A third grader will need to know what a Predicate Nominative is if they are doing a first year Latin program. My second grader painlessly learned it this year with Lively Latin.

 

Ah!! Excellent point! :tongue_smilie:

 

I will add the caveat that my comments regarding formal grammar knowledge at an early age are related to English only, not use in learning other languages. If you choose to study foreign languages early (as we might, especially Latin), then you'd have to hit some hard stuff a little earlier.

[LizzyBee]

would you choose to teach it every year with something like A Beka, CLE, etc.?

 

 

Reason #1: Imo it takes a lot of repetition to make grammar stick. I don't think grammar has to be done every day, but I do like it do it every year from 3rd grade and up. Classroom programs like R&S and Abeka can be trimmed significantly, and we do 75% of our grammar orally.

 

Reason #2: I am dismayed and appalled at the poor grammar I see in books, magazines, and newspapers on a daily basis; sometimes it's so bad that I can't finish reading the piece. I find poor grammar to be a major distraction from the message or plot. Lots of professional writers (and non-professional writers) think their grammar is just fine, but they are deluded. I am talking about very, very basic grammar errors, not obscure rules that nobody knows and uses ('cause I don't know those either!). I don't know that any of my kids will grow up to become professional writers, but I want them to be able to write grammatically correct papers and letters regardless of their vocations. I always tell them that you can have great ideas, but nobody will be interested in listening to them if you can't state them well.