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Can someone help me with (k or c) spelling rule?


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#1 snickelfritz

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Posted 27 March 2009 - 02:22 PM

After much discussion, we finally looked ahead and found out to use a "k" before i or e and a "c" before other vowels.

Now, dd wants to know why "work" is spelled with a k and I can't find anything. Is it always a "k" at the end of a word? She pointed out that the word "in" that came next wouldn't affect the k. :001_smile:

Can you tell that she's very rules-oriented?

#2 lionfamily1999

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Posted 27 March 2009 - 02:33 PM

From 'Reading from Scratch'

k and ck make the /k/ at the end of a monosyllable. The digraph, ck ALWAYS follows a short vowel, all other sounds are followed by k.

#3 snickelfritz

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Posted 27 March 2009 - 02:36 PM

She's thrilled and thinking of words that match each scenario.:D


eta: I mean...thankS!

#4 Spy Car

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Posted 27 March 2009 - 02:52 PM

From 'Reading from Scratch'

k and ck make the /k/ at the end of a monosyllable. The digraph, ck ALWAYS follows a short vowel, all other sounds are followed by k.


Interesting :001_smile:

I'm curious, does this 'Reading from Scratch' teach the "silent e" as a "split diagraph"?

I had friends in the UK who were scratching their heads at first when their children were being taught about "split diagraphs" invoking the old "if-two-vowels-go-walking-the-first-one-does-the-talking" rule.

We're not there yet phonics-wise, but I wondered how American programs deal with silent e vs split diagraphs?

Anyway, nice answer.

Bill (who is also sitting thing of examples :D)

#5 Ellie

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Posted 27 March 2009 - 03:49 PM

Interesting :001_smile:

I'm curious, does this 'Reading from Scratch' teach the "silent e" as a "split diagraph"?

I had friends in the UK who were scratching their heads at first when their children were being taught about "split diagraphs" invoking the old "if-two-vowels-go-walking-the-first-one-does-the-talking" rule.

We're not there yet phonics-wise, but I wondered how American programs deal with silent e vs split diagraphs?

Anyway, nice answer.

Bill (who is also sitting thing of examples :D)

I have never heard of a "split digraph."

OTOH, I do Spalding, which does not invoke "if two vowels go walking the first one does the talking." Ever. Because it isn't really a rule as there would be more "exceptions" than otherwise.

#6 Spy Car

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Posted 27 March 2009 - 04:08 PM

I have never heard of a "split digraph."

OTOH, I do Spalding, which does not invoke "if two vowels go walking the first one does the talking." Ever. Because it isn't really a rule as there would be more "exceptions" than otherwise.


I suspect phonics programs that teach "split diagraphs" don't use the walking/talking song either :lol:

Bill (who's still working with "Ruff and Muff tug the rag rug" :tongue_smilie:)

#7 lionfamily1999

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Posted 27 March 2009 - 04:22 PM

Interesting :001_smile:

I'm curious, does this 'Reading from Scratch' teach the "silent e" as a "split diagraph"?

I had friends in the UK who were scratching their heads at first when their children were being taught about "split diagraphs" invoking the old "if-two-vowels-go-walking-the-first-one-does-the-talking" rule.

We're not there yet phonics-wise, but I wondered how American programs deal with silent e vs split diagraphs?

Anyway, nice answer.

Bill (who is also sitting thing of examples :D)

I was never taught spelling rules like this and when I found this site... well, I was completely enthralled.

http://www.dyslexia....ing_rules.shtml

My son is not dyslexic, but we've both learned a lot from there.

As far as vowels go, they have three patterns (VVC, VCV, and VCCV), explaining, to make a long sound you must add a second vowel. The final example, VCCV, is how to keep a vowel short when followed by another vowel sound.

I've found this really interesting and would love to have a grown-up version, if anyone knows where to look. It's funny, I learned phonics, but never any 'rules' and they're so helpful.



Oh, and to the OP, you're so welcome. I could not believe I actually knew the answer!

#8 Amy in VA

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Posted 27 March 2009 - 04:30 PM

From 'Reading from Scratch'

k and ck make the /k/ at the end of a monosyllable. The digraph, ck ALWAYS follows a short vowel, all other sounds are followed by k.


Except for the word "yak" but that's only because I love to be a pain. ;)

#9 lionfamily1999

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Posted 27 March 2009 - 04:56 PM

Except for the word "yak" but that's only because I love to be a pain. ;)

They actually mention that exception, I left it out since it didn't really pertain, lol.

Next time I'll be more thorough (insert raised eyebrow here) lol.

#10 mktyler

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Posted 27 March 2009 - 05:32 PM

The split digraph is a way of conceptualizing final-e words without referring to rules. Basically, instead of saying that the vowel changes its sound to its name when an -e is added, it would say that the vowel and the final-e work together to spell the sound. This concept was meant to address these issues:

1) the silent-e rule only works in about 2/3 of words, with the percentage of words following such a rule decreasing as word length increases.

2)it is clear from child development research that children on the whole do not use rules well. Not only do they struggle to remember the rule but they also struggle to remember in which environment to use the rule.

Bill asked:

I wondered how American programs deal with silent e vs split digraphs?

Only two American programs that I am aware of teach the split digraph: Reading Reflex and ABeCedarian (which is based off of Reading Reflex, which is based off of the British-born educational psychologist Diane McGuinness' research). Many British programs, both home-based and school-based, use this concept. The concept of the split-digraph has become linked with the British Gov't's mandated form of initial reading instruction--Synthetic Phonics.

Incidentally, there is another option for teaching these words, though it is not currently used in any programs I have come across and gets only a brief mention in Ruth Beechick's work. It is to teach that the consonant and the final-e spell the sound of the consonant, while the vowel letter spells the vowel sound.

Melissa
Minnesota
Reading Program Junkie
dd(10) dd(6) ds(4) ds(1)

#11 Spy Car

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Posted 27 March 2009 - 05:50 PM

The split digraph is a way of conceptualizing final-e words without referring to rules. Basically, instead of saying that the vowel changes its sound to its name when an -e is added, it would say that the vowel and the final-e work together to spell the sound. This concept was meant to address these issues:

1) the silent-e rule only works in about 2/3 of words, with the percentage of words following such a rule decreasing as word length increases.

2)it is clear from child development research that children on the whole do not use rules well. Not only do they struggle to remember the rule but they also struggle to remember in which environment to use the rule.

Bill asked:

I wondered how American programs deal with silent e vs split digraphs?

Only two American programs that I am aware of teach the split digraph: Reading Reflex and ABeCedarian (which is based off of Reading Reflex, which is based off of the British-born educational psychologist Diane McGuinness' research). Many British programs, both home-based and school-based, use this concept. The concept of the split-digraph has become linked with the British Gov't's mandated form of initial reading instruction--Synthetic Phonics.

Incidentally, there is another option for teaching these words, though it is not currently used in any programs I have come across and gets only a brief mention in Ruth Beechick's work. It is to teach that the consonant and the final-e spell the sound of the consonant, while the vowel letter spells the vowel sound.

Melissa
Minnesota
Reading Program Junkie
dd(10) dd(6) ds(4) ds(1)


This post make we wish we still had "rep."

Thank you for the informed response Melissa.

Bill

#12 mktyler

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Posted 27 March 2009 - 06:46 PM

This post make we wish we still had "rep."

Could you explain this for some of us newbies?:)

Melissa
Minnesota
Reading Program Junkie
dd(10) dd(6) ds(4) ds(1)

#13 Spy Car

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Posted 27 March 2009 - 07:05 PM

This post make we wish we still had "rep."

Could you explain this for some of us newbies?:)

Melissa
Minnesota
Reading Program Junkie
dd(10) dd(6) ds(4) ds(1)


We could hit a button if we saw a post we liked and it would send a "green dot" and reputation points of exponentially increasing value to the person who made the post. As you got more rep points, more and more "green dots" appeared next to your avatar.

Green dots soon became a object of desire. We began to "covet". We lost our way. The Over-Mind was rightfully displeased. Rep ended.

But the initial idea was to reward great post. So I'm sending you "virtual rep."

Bill

Edited by Spy Car, 27 March 2009 - 07:40 PM.


#14 kalanamak

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Posted 27 March 2009 - 07:36 PM

Except for the word "yak" but that's only because I love to be a pain. ;)



Yak, as in "friend to the children" is from a Tibetan word, and yak as in talk is slang of the 20th century. All bets off for those in regards English spelling rules. Maybe exceptions in English, but not exceptions to the rules :)

#15 mktyler

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Posted 27 March 2009 - 09:25 PM

But the initial idea was to reward great post. So I'm sending you "virtual rep."

Bill


Thanks!

Melissa
Minnesota
Reading Program Junkie
dd(10) dd(6) ds(4) ds(1)

#16 Ellie

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Posted 27 March 2009 - 10:31 PM

The split digraph is a way of conceptualizing final-e words without referring to rules. Basically, instead of saying that the vowel changes its sound to its name when an -e is added, it would say that the vowel and the final-e work together to spell the sound. This concept was meant to address these issues:

1) the silent-e rule only works in about 2/3 of words, with the percentage of words following such a rule decreasing as word length increases.

2)it is clear from child development research that children on the whole do not use rules well. Not only do they struggle to remember the rule but they also struggle to remember in which environment to use the rule.

Bill asked:

I wondered how American programs deal with silent e vs split digraphs?

Only two American programs that I am aware of teach the split digraph: Reading Reflex and ABeCedarian (which is based off of Reading Reflex, which is based off of the British-born educational psychologist Diane McGuinness' research). Many British programs, both home-based and school-based, use this concept. The concept of the split-digraph has become linked with the British Gov't's mandated form of initial reading instruction--Synthetic Phonics.

Incidentally, there is another option for teaching these words, though it is not currently used in any programs I have come across and gets only a brief mention in Ruth Beechick's work. It is to teach that the consonant and the final-e spell the sound of the consonant, while the vowel letter spells the vowel sound.

Melissa
Minnesota
Reading Program Junkie
dd(10) dd(6) ds(4) ds(1)

I can tell you how Spalding teaches.

First, Spalding teaches 5 reasons for final silent e; otherwise, silent vowels are not "taught" at all. For example, "ea" has 3 sounds: /E/ (bead), /e/ (head), and /A/ (break). Spalding teaches those sounds for that 1 phonogram with no explanations as to why the e is silent, because it doesn't matter.

These are the final-silent e rules:

1. single vowel, single consonant, final silent e: helps the single vowel say its long sound

2. helps c and g say their second ("soft") sounds

3. English words do not end with u or v, so we use final silent e ("have").

4. Every syllable in English has to have a syllable, so we use final silent e in words like "table," which would be pronounced the same whether the e is there or not.

5. No job e, in words like "house" or "are." Possibly those used to be pronounced, but they are no longer.

Phonograms like "ie" are not silent-e words (in Spalding's world).


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