Wow! I've been reading about TKCs and just realized my middle child...

[Nan in Mass]

I am going to have to think about this...

 

I was reading the Wiki article and followed a link to a pdf book called According to my Passport I'm Coming Home. I just read a good chunk of it, and realized that although my middle child (middle - not the youngest with whom I'm trying to do French) isn't technically a TCK, he has many of the attributes of one and has faced some of the challenges. I did a little math and figured out that in the last 5 years, (13yo - 18yo) he has spent more than a year living someplace else, some of those places overseas. The similarities range from major things like grieving at leaving innumerable close friends behind and having to deal with the insularness of his peers and even professors, to minor things like having a different set of table manners and a faint Australian accent from spending three months in Japan. We've understood that he was different and dealt with the issues as they arose as best we can, but it was very helpful to see them all written out. His issues aren't as severe as those of the people who've spent their entire childhood overseas, but being homeschooled and all the sailing we do and our general differentness as a family haven't exactly mitigated his experience. Facebook is helping quite a lot. But the consequences are pretty far reaching. Among other things, he's chosen a career which involves travel because he doesn't want to be stuck in the US.

Wow! Thank you, Joan.

-Nan

Edited March 5, 2009 by Nan in Mass

[Friederike in Persia]

You might want to get Pollack's book on TCKs, too. I think it was him who coigned the term TCK in the first place.

I've found it a very helpful concept (the third culture) and am keeping it in mind a lot, as we're raising ours, who could be used for any study on TCKs, as they fit that 'mould' perfectly.

 

Just saw that Joan's reference was to Pollack. I don't know how much the acticle says about the topic, but if you've got a child who's growing up with some sort of a third culture aspect to their circumstances, it's well worth getting the whole book. I even know grown ups who read it as adults and found it very helpful to figure out how they tick themselves.

Edited March 5, 2009 by Friederike in Persia

[Nan in Mass]

I'll read it. I think you are right and it is going to be important for explaining himself to himself and his brothers. A number of times I've heard him have to defend himself when his older brother says, "How can you stand to be with those people?" This might help him.

-Nan

[Merry]

Would that be better to get than printing out the pdf file on TKC? I'm particularly interested in this issue because my ds recently had a girlfriend who grew up in the Middle East. Her parents are medical missionaries and she has two younger brothers. They just moved to Kenya and this girlfriend visited them on her college break. When she returned, she felt so confused and sad that she couldn't handle a relationship so she broke up with my ds. (The family are Americans who've spent very little time in the USA all her life). I'd like to give her either the book or the printed copy of the pdf book. And have my ds read it too. As well as myself.

[Nan in Mass]

Third Culture Kids

[Nan in Mass]

I had a friend who immigrated here from the Middle East in high school. She went back and forth between the two cultures fairly easily until it came time to be married. At that point, she felt like she didn't belong in either. She was too American to be happy to let her family back home (who didn't know her well) marry her to someone in the Middle East, but too Middle Eastern to date around and find someone to marry here in the standard US way. Eventually, her family here found a Middle Eastern man who lived and worked in the US and married her to him. She didn't know him until right before they were engaged, but except for lots of dowery jewels and a furnished apartment from the groom's family, the engagement was a fairly normal US one. (I lost track of her immediately after that, so I have no idea how things worked out.) All that is to say that I expect your son and his friend would indeed benefit from some information, and that dating is probably a hugely confusing thing for her.

 

The pdf book I read is a handout from the foreign service meant for returning children and their families. There is a section for younger children, high schoolers, and college students. A large part of it deals with the culture shock these children experience and what can be done to ease that and help them to live happily in their new environment. It is very frank, both in its discussion of the disturbing aspects of teen life in the US and about the fact that many of these children don't really adjust; they only learn to survive while they are waiting to go back overseas. The Pollock book might be more of a scientific study than a how-to-survive manual? Someone here can probably tell you. I'm going to get it, but it will be a few days before I've gotten it and read it, so hopefully someone else will chime in here. Or you can ask. I think Pollock had children who were TCKs, so perhaps I'm wrong. Anyway, if they can deal with the frankness, the PDF might be more helpful? Since it is written to students? I don't know.

-Nan

[Nan in Mass]

And - most of his friends are global nomads. It might be helpful to see their possible issues all in one place. Although he's so empathic he probably knows it all already. It is handy to have a label like "global nomads" for them, though. And he and I can discuss it more easily if we have some vocabulary. We talk about these issues allll ttthhhheeee ttttiiiiimmmmeeeee.

[Joan in GE]

has the first page of the Table of Contents here. If that doesn't work, search Third Culture Kids on their site and then "look inside"...

 

BUT it only shows the first page of the TC. So the next page has "unresolved grief" and Section 2 Maximizing the Benefits with chapters basically on how to make the most of the situation...transition, educational needs, enjoying the journey, reentry, how sponsoring organizations can help, never too late...

 

Overall it is mostly not scientific but descriptive and explanatory....

 

As an offshoot of your comments Nan, I had to start wondering if there is a certain 3rd cultureness about homeschooling sometimes even in the US (though I think it is much more accepted now so children can be involved in lots of activities)? And now that I think about it, in a way it is more difficult for my son especially since there are almost no homeschoolers here and he's wanting to grow up to be a man with no other role models here of how to do it through home ed....

 

Best,

Joan

Edited March 5, 2009 by Joan in Geneva

[Nan in Mass]

I think the US has so many subcultures, that it is a little hard to tell. Yes, I think lots of homeschoolers are homeschooling to try to avoid some aspects of US culture, especially teen culture. Sometimes that is their only reason for homeschooling, but that reason is usually mixed in with some sort of wish for a different sort of education for their children; either they want one that has more of their own religious culture in it, or one that is more academically rigorous than the local school offers, or they are trying to create a home culture where their children will place more value on education and be more motivated to educate themselves. Except for the the-evil-government-is-trying-to-control-our-children sort, most homeschoolers I've had experience with seem to think of themselves as better Americans, creating a culture for themselves that is more the way they think the US culture should be. Almost all of the homeschoolers I've known personally (not through these boards) haven't started out as homeschoolers. They have become homeschoolers because school wasn't working for at least one of their children. Most of the ones I've known personally have put children in and out of school, as circumstances and needs changed.

 

I think lots of homeschooled children, even here where homeschooling is accepted, grow up without home-ed role models. Mine did except for a few brief encounters with unschoolers. They had lots of support for homeschooling from other adults who wished they had been homeschooled. And lots of teachers other than me. When you let your sons go wandering around without a visible parent or school they become public property, and men take it upon themselves to teach your children whatever they think would be useful to them. Some of them even offer to keep your children and teach them how to make a living the way they do. I think this has been a very important part of my children's growing up. They have had lots of mentors. A major one has been their gymanstic coaches. We more or less co-parent with their gymnastics coach, a situation which gymnastics coaches are well aware of, since they know how attached to their own coaches they themselves were. Mine are far from isolated, despite not really being involved with other homeschoolers. I'm waiting with interest to see how this latest peacewalk changes my youngest's ideas about homeschooling, since he is walking with two other homeschooled teenagers. (And a teen from a farm school, and one from a quaker school.) It might motivate him more, or it might unmotivate him more. I'll know about the end of April GRIN. I know he is motivated and inspired by his public school friends, who are slightly older than he is. He recently read Alice in Wonderland because they were quoting it, for example. He has a batch of friends who are fairly alive intellectually.

 

The town next to us has a large group of Christian homeschoolers. They have their own culture to some extent, I'm sure. I think they are extra patriotic, among other things. There are coops to the south of us, too, that we haven't had anything to do with. I wonder what homeschooling is like if you are involved with a coop? Both of these groups probably have plenty of older home-ed-ers for role models. I remember now that early on in homeschooling, we were involved with a group of homeschoolers, not as a coop but as a parent support group. I didn't stay with them because their support mostly consisted of complaining. They didn't like the current culture but they weren't forming a new one. They belonged to either the conservative Christian culture or the earthy-crunchy culture, both of which are well-established US minority cultures, and eventually they bickered themselves into two groups.

 

Does your son have adult intellectuals he can use as role models? Do they take an interest in him?

 

-Nan

[Joan in GE]

you have a gift for articulation Nan. I am curious if your parents talked with you a lot when you were young?

 

No my son doesn't have other intellectual role models. An elderly man who he used to help in his garden when my ds was in primary school has just gotten too old (85 now, thin, frail but still rides his bike - without a helmet) though we go to geographical meetings with him still....then some other elderly neighbors are more latched on to my dd and a different son.

 

It is a good idea to try to find that for him. It reminds me of "Hold on to Your Kids" a book which talks about getting them involved with other adults but that I had forgotten about...

 

Thanks for the idea,

Joan

[Nan in Mass]

My youngest does. Maybe you can find someone to play one of the more intellectual games with him, like chess or go or D+D. Or find a chess club? If he has a science or engineering bent, maybe he could try to get his ham radio license? Ham adults would probably love to get their hands on him. He might still be a little young for that. The music world has also been a source of intellectual adults, both the adults we casually sing or play guitar with and my sons' piano teacher. Amateur theatre might be an idea, also, although I've been reluctant to introduce my children to the theatre world.

 

In my family, I'm known for not talking or talking in circles. Both my parents are fairly articulate, but we are one of those non-talky families who don't discuss current events or literature or anything else very much. We tend to make things or do things together instead. Most of our talking consists of pointing things out to each other (like sunsets or rocks or birds) or planning projects. In my own family, my more talkative eldest always complains that my husband and I don't ever talk. I'm much, much more coherent in writing GRIN.

 

-Nan

[Friederike in Persia]

It's been a few years that I read 'third culture kids', but the two main things that stuck with me is to appreciate the flexibility that comes with their upbringing and to try and counter their feeling of rootlessness as much as possible.

For us as a family this means that when we go back to the UK every 2 years we stay in the same place and try and put them in the same schools each time (confession: I'm not a totally committed hs, when we're in Germany and the UK they go to ps).

 

Because there is so much going on underneith (like my children looking to adapt extremly well when we move and fitting in so fast, but them having thoughts and doubts about the process and there being a lot more to who they are than they show in order to fit in) I tried to have my close family and best friends read the book. It hadn't been translated into German by then and my English speaking inlaws aren't big readers, so that didn't work too well.

[Nan in Mass]

As a family, going back to my grandparents on both sides, we've never fit in very well, especially in public school. If you can make close friends in a place, you are considered lucky. The rest of the time, you are expected to fit in and rely on family for your close friends. That part sounds familiar and completely normal for us. My children and my sister's children are doing the same thing. My older two sons are best friends and planning on going to college together. My youngest's best friend is his cousin. They all have other friends, but the ones they consider "safe" are the family ones. Our "place" (except my father, who was a navy brat), is the coast of New England. Our "culture" is more or less old New England. So my children are pretty well rooted and the family expectation is that you won't really fit in with other people unless you are lucky but you will blend in, unless you do something stupid or get unlucky. This is probably what Joan was saying about homeschooling people being rather third culture. We are and we aren't, I guess. My middle one has been doing this on a global scale, though, and I am having to rethink a bit and decide what is the same as usual, and what is different. He is much more adaptable than the rest of us and likes people better and I think it is a very good thing. He can see many points of view, too. He'd probably be a good diplomat or mediator, but he doesn't want to go into politics. I gave him the pdf book yesterday and he was fascinated and spent the afternoon reading it.

 

It is nice that you can go back to the same places. I should think that would help a lot. And I've deliberately sought that adaptability and blend--in-ability for my children. What a good idea, to give the book to other family members to read. My mother would be interested, I know, and so would one of my sisters. If there are issues that are going to continue to crop up for the rest of my son's life (and it sounds like there might be), it would be better if everyone were aware of them.

 

What about you yourself? Are you a TCK? Is your husband?

 

-Nan

[Joan in GE]

My youngest does. Maybe you can find someone to play one of the more intellectual games with him, like chess or go or D+D. Or find a chess club? If he has a science or engineering bent, maybe he could try to get his ham radio license? Ham adults would probably love to get their hands on him. He might still be a little young for that. The music world has also been a source of intellectual adults, both the adults we casually sing or play guitar with and my sons' piano teacher. Amateur theatre might be an idea, also, although I've been reluctant to introduce my children to the theatre world.

 

In my family, I'm known for not talking or talking in circles. Both my parents are fairly articulate, but we are one of those non-talky families who don't discuss current events or literature or anything else very much. We tend to make things or do things together instead. Most of our talking consists of pointing things out to each other (like sunsets or rocks or birds) or planning projects. In my own family, my more talkative eldest always complains that my husband and I don't ever talk. I'm much, much more coherent in writing GRIN.

 

I'm racking my brains here. The "elderly" man I mentioned before gave him chess problems books (do you know about those? here's an example - http://www.chessopolis.com/problems.htm) but never played chess with him....

 

So I'm going to have to be more creative. Today he'll go with a lady and her two daughters to an observatory open house....

[Friederike in Persia]

 

What about you yourself? Are you a TCK? Is your husband?

 

-Nan

 

My dh grew up in Yorkshire with his dad being from there and his mum from

Kentucky. He's very British in many ways and I only hear him refer to his American passport when people get too anti-American, which sadly isn't that uncommon in Europe.

My family has lived in Southern Germany for as long as anybody can remember. I grew up on books about Amy Carmichel, Hutson Taylor and the like, which fed my super strong desire to move overseas since before I was 10.With 16 I made it for the first time for half a year to California, as an exchange student, and once I'd finished school in Germany at 18 I was off to Damascus for 2 years as an Arabic student. Met dh during that time, moved close to London to study there, got married and then moved to Tajikistan once I had graduated. Been living here for more than 10 years and loving most of it. A long way to say that no, I'm not a TCK, but have been living overseas for 16 years now and intend to do so for a lot longer.

 

Friederike

[Renai]

Interesting. I read the wiki article and checked off every characteristic except one (haven't completed an advanced degree-- yet :) ). I was a military brat, and the one base I made the most connection no longer exists (in Germany). I found out about it about 3-4 years ago, and grieved. I was very surprised by my reaction. Oh, well. Sometimes I wonder if I missed a calling of living in a travel trailer and moving from place to place. Since that obviously won't be happening, I rearrange the furniture in our 659 sq ft apartment every once in a while. :D :lol:

[Nan in Mass]

All stuff you knew already, but didn't put together and label. My father was a navy brat and my mother lived in the same house until she married. My father compromised - we stayed put house-wise but went away every weekend. Now I feel trapped and miserable if we don't go away at least a few weekends every month. It doesn't have to be far or exotic. We often just visit my mother in the next town. Rearranging the furniture is a good idea GRIN.

 

You know, I'm finding this conversation is comforting me about my older two children's choice of career, also. They are going to the maritime academy and planning on shipping out. I worry about the lifestyle (especially if they have a family) but perhaps I've been thinking of it backwards - perhaps it is a way for them to stay living in one spot, especially for the middle one.

-Nan

[Colleen in NS]

Third Culture Kids

 

Oh, I LOVED reading this book a few years ago!!

 

"Hold on to Your Kids"

 

And I just started reading this book - someone else here recommended it - it is soooooo good - reaffirming my parenting instincts.

 

Interesting. I read the wiki article and checked off every characteristic except one (haven't completed an advanced degree-- yet :) ). I was a military brat, and the one base I made the most connection no longer exists (in Germany). I found out about it about 3-4 years ago, and grieved. I was very surprised by my reaction. Oh, well. Sometimes I wonder if I missed a calling of living in a travel trailer and moving from place to place. Since that obviously won't be happening, I rearrange the furniture in our 659 sq ft apartment every once in a while. :D :lol:

 

I lived in basically the same place til I was 18, but then got involved in a worldwide missions organization and traveled and moved around a lot for years. Met my dh there, and we are both restless all the time. I continually rearrange my furniture.:lol:

 

I also identified with some of what was written in TCK.

[Nan in Mass]

My parents do this part-time for retirement. We've done it a few months at a time either sailing or on land. We all agree (except my gardening mother) that we could do it indefinately. We were surprised when my brother in law was surprised that we wanted to. We just sort of assumed everyone would keep doing that if they could GRIN. Guess not... This conversation is enormously comforting to me because I had serious doubts about my children choosing to be merchant mariners. Now I'm beginning to see why they thought that lifestyle sounded attractive. I guess it shouldn't come as a surprise that they want to work on something that moves.

-Nan

[jellogirl]

My mother is American and my father is Norwegian. I lived in Norway until I was six, then we moved to the US, partially so we could homeschool freely. Those two facts have played an important part in who I am-- I always feel like there is a part of me that those around me cannot understand, because they do not know what my other world is like.

 

I know two languages fluently, though I am more comfortable with English. Spanish was a breeze because I could go into a place half-way between Norwegian and English and understand what the words meant-- bilingualism has given me the ability to understand languages better. There is also the culture and traditions I carry with me. Americans do not understand my heritage; it is foreign to them. And I have all sorts of quirks: I regularly use words like "gummistøvler" and "gravemaskin."

 

The worst part is telling people I'm Norwegian, only to have them reply that they are too, thinking I was merely referring to my great-great-grandparents. And they ask questions equally ridiculous to the famous homeschool ones.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

Another book that touches on ds's girlfriend's situation is Serving as Senders. by Niel Pirolo. It touches on some of the dissorientation that missionaries (and their families) feel upon returning home, especially if there is a disconnect in standards of living, health or safety. It is evidently common for people to be stunned by the insensitivity they perceive in their home culture or from friends and family. Sometimes it feels extreme.

 

I know that I was quite out of it when we moved from Germany to Hawaii and that was between to western modern societies. But little stuff like driving rules and sorting trash and how overweight people looked really struck me.