Will I regret having 14 yr old ds take basic alg. at cc?

[momee]

We're struggling with math AGAIN.

 

We've been through TT pre-alg and are almost done with TT alg 1. He's bombed the last two tests. Process for getting below a c is, he goes through the lessons again doing the practice problems and retakes it and makes a c or b. I got chalkdust for him, he seriously dislikes it. He likes TT but needs some more help than I can give him. We've tried a friend (math major) helping occasionally but it's not formal enough. Not really curricula I don't think - we tried Saxon and Lial's, both with negative results.

 

Tutor isn't really his choice anyway. He doesn't "want to do math at home anymore", he wants a teacher. I u/stand. I want him to have one. We were entertaining the idea of a cc class for something soon anyhow.

 

3 main concerns:

1) age - lots of things new to his homeschooled eyes (the dress of girls there was shocking as we walked through halls to take placement test) - he's 14.

 

2) pace - no going back and re-doing a chapter if he doesn't get it

 

3) experience - maybe the subject he's weak in shouldn't be his first outside class

 

Opinions? Other options? Encouragement to put him in cc for math would be appreciated by my son :tongue_smilie:

I think from the score he made on the test, he placed into basic algebra (which is where he is right now).

[Jeannie in NJ]

when I was in college there was a math lab with advanced math students that would tutor any other students that needed help. It was free. Does the cc that you are looking at have such a thing. Remember that a college class will move twice as fast as the same subject would in high school.

 

That said, I took math classes from pre-algebra up to calculus in college and the classes were not hard until calculus.

 

Can he enroll in the class and drop it if it is too difficult and get a refund?

[LoriM]

Our CC won't allow a 14yo to take courses without qualifying for gifted/talented, and no high schooler can take "remedial" math (which is what any course prior to College Algebra is considered).

 

You might ask if the CC has a math lab, or a tutoring service. Then he could take a course he's stronger in (like history or health), but use the tutoring service for his algebra. GRIN.

 

I would hire a tutor, and simply require the work. Is he doing his corrections? Even just recopying problems, and working identical problems with new numbers (I have had to make those up) side by side with the recopied problems can help a student begin to see the solution process.

[LoriM]

when I was in college there was a math lab with advanced math students that would tutor any other students that needed help. It was free. Does the cc that you are looking at have such a thing. Remember that a college class will move twice as fast as the same subject would in high school.

 

That said, I took math classes from pre-algebra up to calculus in college and the classes were not hard until calculus.

 

Can he enroll in the class and drop it if it is too difficult and get a refund?

 

We posted the same advice at the same time! GRIN!

[Jane in NC]

Not sure what state you live in, but here in NC a fourteen year old would not be allowed to take a remedial math class (which is what a basic algebra course is considered) at the CC.

 

Frankly if he is having a tough time with TT working at a slower pace, I do not see how a semester long (fast paced) algebra course of potentially greater rigor will work.

 

Fourteen can be a tough age. I think that I would want my son's first outside class to be one in which he would feel more confident of success.

 

How long does he spend on math daily? If it is an hour, increase it to an hour and a half. (Say 45 minutes in the morning an another 45 minutes in the late afternoon or evening--after his other school work is finished. Make it "homework" which is what he would have if he were in an outside class.)

 

Hiring a tutor may be beneficial. If you cannot afford one, can you trade services? Tutoring for babysitting? Lawn mowing? Snow shoveling? (Your son could take ownership here.) There must be some retired engineers at your church or in your community would have time on their hands to help a struggling but hopefully motivated student.

 

Sorry if I cannot be positive about your decision to attempt this course at the CC. I fear that your son needs more time mastering this material, not an expedited course. Good luck.

Jane

[Jane in NC]

Our CC won't allow a 14yo to take courses without qualifying for gifted/talented, and no high schooler can take "remedial" math (which is what any course prior to College Algebra is considered).

 

You might ask if the CC has a math lab, or a tutoring service. Then he could take a course he's stronger in (like history or health), but use the tutoring service for his algebra. GRIN.

 

I would hire a tutor, and simply require the work. Is he doing his corrections? Even just recopying problems, and working identical problems with new numbers (I have had to make those up) side by side with the recopied problems can help a student begin to see the solution process.

 

Feeling like the LoriM echo with my other post!

[Cindy in WA]

Algebra contains a fair amount of abstract thinking. Because of brain development and the teen-age brain fog that hits many young people, especially young men, I have found in our family that the kids aren't always ready for algebra as freshman or younger.

 

Our oldest struggled with math all through school for other reasons, so we postponed algebra until his sophmore year. Math was still hard, but it was obvious that he was grasping concepts better his sophmore year.

 

Our daughter is a good student. School doesn't come horribly hard for her. The algebra program we had chosen for her as a freshman ended up having poor instruction, so we had to change part way through the year. She started at the beginning of TT. Since she couldn't finish in half a year, I had her review what she had learned in TT at the beginning of her sophomore year and then move forward. It was amazing how much better her comprehension was her sophomore year. She noticed it as well.

 

For this reason, we have chosen for our youngest not even to start Algebra until his sophomore year. Sometimes he complains that he's "behind", but our daughter jumps right in to tell him that he needs to wait because it will be way easier.

 

That's a long story to tell you that maybe he just needs to wait for a little more maturity. He could do consumer math or something like that to keep his skills up until he is ready.

 

HTH

Cindy

[momee]

So I'm on the right track with my thinking then. This won't go over well.

 

I like the idea of getting help, I just don't know how.

 

You know, I hate to say it but I'm pretty sure it's a matter of him not applying himself to studying something hard for him.

 

Maybe I need to read some old posts on accountability and the like. He knows what to do but because it is hard! he doesn't always follow the steps.

 

(deep breath)

[Pamela H in Texas]

I think ds just hasn't been ready yet. He's either missing some foundational skills, needs something totally different, will be ready in a few months (or maybe is just now ready), whatever.

 

My ds is only 13 and he was making good grades with Algebra I. However, I could tell that something was missing though he also did two pre-algebra programs (Lial's and Dolciani).

 

A post on here talked about another program and an article on their website. I went to http://www.systemath.com and found the Mynah Bird article helpful. I immediately got the program for my ds. Because I really believed he had most of the pre-algebra down, I got the Math Rescue. If I wasn't positive, I would have gotten the graded material instead. He's finding it easy for the most part (he knows most of the information) but he HAS learned things. In fact, *I* learned a thing or two!

 

The good thing about this program is that it allows a student to back up and catch what they may have missed, but without penalizing them. Because there are not 180 lessons per level, a student can really go their own pace. If they need an extra day on a lesson, take it. But they may well be able to do most lessons in just a day, building slowly upon each concept, but fast enough to keep moving. As it is, unless we hit a MAJOR snag, my ds will still finish the equiv of Algebra II next year even though we backed up half way through Algebra I.

 

Anyway, I really like this program. It's only been a few weeks but I can tell this is just what we needed!

 

Anyway, I would just assume that ds isn't/wasn't quite ready either developmentally or foundationally. I would make sure the latter is taken care of and then try again either using the same materials or something else.

[Moni]

he goes through the lessons again doing the practice problems and retakes it and makes a c or b

 

Good. :)

Do it again if he scores below 87%

And again

And again.

 

:seeya:

[Moni]

...I'm pretty sure it's a matter of him not applying himself to studying something hard for him.

 

 

:glare: shocking.....a 14-year-old male not applying himself to something kind of difficult...in math.....at home....on his own..... :lol: (...not shocking but probably typical, eh?....)

 

It's okay if he doesn't apply himself.

 

Just keep going back to the beginning of the chapter, every problem, every correction, and try the test again.

Lather, rinse, repeat until he scores a 90% on the test for that chapter.

Might take a good four rounds of the same chapter. So what. *wink

 

It will come.

It's okay for it to come s-l-o-w-l-y especially if he isn't applying himself, diligent motivated daily effort. Why would it come any more quickly if he's not applying himself and probably trying to get out of it? ;)

[Nan in Mass]

It could be that it presents the material in a way that makes it hard for him to understand. Or it could be that it presents the material in a way that makes it so he does understand and can apply and makes him work and as a typical 14yo boy, he doesn't want to work. It may be that he is thinking that having a teacher will make it easier to make himself do the work, or it may be that he thinks having a teacher will make it easier to understand the material so that he can actually do the work. I view with suspicion anything my children say they hate LOL. Most of the time, they hate it because it is unclear to them, but sometimes they hate it because it is either hard work thinking, or hard work applying their self-discipline. Or both. Fortunately, they usually admit it when I approach them in a friendly, companionable way. And we can work out a way to make it easier, like doing it twice a day or doing it first thing in the morning before they are tired, or doing it later in the morning when they are fully awake, or doing it walking around, or in a quiet place, or in the car, or something.

 

Is he correcting each problem as he does it? Is he doing over everything he gets wrong the first time?

-Nan

[momee]

"It's okay if he doesn't apply himself."

 

REALLY. It's soo not ok, but I know what you're saying. Honestly we are and have been having this situation. It is getting old and I am old and he's getting older and...you get the picture.

 

 

"Just keep going back to the beginning of the chapter, every problem, every correction, and try the test again.

Lather, rinse, repeat until he scores a 90% on the test for that chapter.

Might take a good four rounds of the same chapter. So what. *wink"

 

So, that is what we've been doing. We started back in January of last year and he's now on chapter 9. We did math over the summer and are still doing that same math. At what point do you think it's just not working? Or is it a battle of wills here that I seem to be loosing?

 

"It will come. It's okay for it to come s-l-o-w-l-y especially if he isn't applying himself, diligent motivated daily effort. Why would it come any more quickly if he's not applying himself and probably trying to get out of it? ;) "

Now you seem to have hit the same common sense chord I've tried and in a moment of exhaustion, we called up to cc. He wants a teacher to hand feed the info, I think.

Just thinkin' out loud, still thinkin'...

[momee]

"It could be that it presents the material in a way that makes it hard for him to understand."

I doubt it, it's very clear and as we watched a good bit of the beginning, he says, I know that. That's easy, etc. I thought it was an incredibly thorough program. IIIIII love it.

 

" Or it could be that it presents the material in a way that makes it so he does understand and can apply and makes him work and as a typical 14yo boy, he doesn't want to work. It may be that he is thinking that having a teacher will make it easier to make himself do the work, or it may be that he thinks having a teacher will make it easier to understand the material so that he can actually do the work. "

 

Good questions, ones that I don't know the answer to right now. I'll think on it and see if it spurs something helpful. Off the cuff, definitely the last statement. He thinks because I don't know enough to teach it to him as I have in the past (we did ALOT of hand holding), that he's not being served well by me. At least that's what I'm hearing him say about why he wants to go.

 

"I view with suspicion anything my children say they hate LOL. Most of the time, they hate it because it is unclear to them, but sometimes they hate it because it is either hard work thinking, or hard work applying their self-discipline. Or both. "

We went through this exact thing with Tapestry. Him saying it's too hard. He hates it, he wants a change. Well, we switched and we were in the same exact spot 9 weeks in. I definitely stuggle with helping on the self discipline end of it all. How do you effectively teach that???? Any thoughts?

 

"Fortunately, they usually admit it when I approach them in a friendly, companionable way. "

BTDT. That's how I know this cc thing is just a ploy, stall tactic, distraction. I will grant him the fact that being at home is definitely not as fun as hanging out at the coffee shop of the cc checking out the scene, kwim?

 

"And we can work out a way to make it easier, like doing it twice a day or doing it first thing in the morning before they are tired, or doing it later in the morning when they are fully awake, or doing it walking around, or in a quiet place, or in the car, or something."

Tried all that, and I am sad that he still needs a watchful eye in doing all the steps, like the correcting issue you speak of below. You would think he could be doing that consistently by now.

 

"Is he correcting each problem as he does it? Is he doing over everything he gets wrong the first time?"

Well, he does when I check his work every day, sit with him the entire time he's working on it and enforce the issue. And give consistent consequences for it not being done which turns into a lovely weekend of a disciplined, cranky boy who misses out on .... whatever the event was.

This isn't helpful for me typing all this out. I'm going to take him to the cc meeting, get a cup of coffee with him and pour out love and grace, then come home and do some kick butt algebra (to borrow a term I learned here, goyb parenting type stuff).

Well ladies, pray for me if you can :lol:

This too shall pass I'm sure.:chillpill:

 

Thanks, Stephanie

[momee]

"Algebra contains a fair amount of abstract thinking. Because of brain development and the teen-age brain fog that hits many young people, especially young men, I have found in our family that the kids aren't always ready for algebra as freshman or younger.

 

HTH

Cindy "

 

 

I so appreciate hearing your perspective. It has crossed my mind more than once. He cannot be the only person who struggles with math and I can see maturity each year. I don't know how I feel about putting it off alot longer, but doing geometry a bit quicker or even at the same time may help us to take longer on algebra.

[Moni]

We started back in January of last year and he's now on chapter 9. We did math over the summer and are still doing that same math. At what point do you think it's just not working? Or is it a battle of wills here that I seem to be loosing?

 

That's a good question. I don't know.

Is it the math that's not working or the student who is not working?

 

How exactly does the student 'work' the math on a daily basis?

 

Sounds as if he's had 250 days' attempts at this.

I would wonder what he did on each of those 250 days (general routine, not a memory quiz)

I am guessing not a Lesson Per Day or he'd be in his next book by now.

Does he do half a lesson per day? a third? a few problems?

Skip days?

 

Has he repeated any Chapters?

Did he always score 90% or better on Chapter tests before moving on?

Or 85%?

or 70%

 

I wondering whether it might be time to re-give each chapter tests.

Perhaps give Chapter 1 test.

If he passes 90 % , then tomorrow he can take Chapter 2 test.

If he passes Chapter 2 test with 90 % or higher, next day give him the Chapter 3 test again.

 

If he scores below 90%, he can redo the chapter.

Sure it will be kind of easy, but he may do better if it's not so difficult this time around.

 

Doing a dianostic of this type might point you in the right direction. :)

If he can't pass the tests for Chapters #1-8, than could give you something to go back an focus on.

 

I'd wonder whether he moved ahead when he should have re-done a chapter.

I'm not saying he did, but it would be something I would ponder.

 

And if he's been working inefficiently in his book for 12 months, it doesn't mean it's the book. It could be that he wasn't working properly, efficiently.

 

If he didn't learn in in 2008, he can learn it in 2009.

The past 12 months I'd consider sunk time, and remedy from here on out.

 

Another question -- does TT allow you to call with questions, free of charge?

 

He knows what to do but because it is hard! he doesn't always follow the steps.

 

:-)

Well, it does'nt count if he's not following the steps.

It doesn't mean the mathbook is not working.

It means the student isn't working (properly).

 

 

Does he like to get the answer without doing the steps?

That's okay.

Consider letting him get the answer without doing the steps.

But then he has to go back and add the steps in, and work that last calculation to make sure he gets the same answer.

My son does this. He doesn't like to write the steps either.

 

If you don't check his math if it has no steps written or omits steps, then he can't get it correct, ane he's not done with his math assignment yet for the day.

 

:seeya:

Edited February 4, 2009 by Moni

[Kareni]

One potential negative to him taking the course at the community college is if he does poorly. That grade will be part of his record. Applying to college, one is required to submit all transcripts.

 

Regards,

Kareni

[Mandy in TN]

In TN he could take CC math classes at 14yo only as a gifted student. He would also need at least a 19 on the math section of the ACT.

However, if your state will allow your ds to take CC math classes, why don't you see if they will let him audit a remedial algebra course? This would be a course for students who did not qualify to take regular CC math classes and if it is an audit he will not receive a grade.

Just a thought-

Mandy

[Nan in Mass]

Neither of mine at 14 would do the algebra "properly" (writing the steps) unless I looked at every problem. One of mine is 14 now. If I hadn't taken physics and math in college, I probably wouldn't now be insisting that he write those steps out, but I did, and I know that what saves you in long problems later is writing out the steps. I would probably even still let him get away without writing the steps if they got every answer right, but they don't. Both my children hated doing it. I had to sit with them while they did their algebra for the first month or two and then periodically after that to make them do it. I have to look at every problem until they are about 16 to get them to keep doing it. I have to write out every new sort of problem to give my son an example of exactly what I want it to look like. My older one began doing math "properly", showing steps and correcting as he went, when he was about 16, so sitting with them doesn't seem to handicap them for life GRIN. (My father did my math homework with me all the way through high school and I was in the high math classes. I did it fine by myself when I got to college.) I never did any consequences if they didn't other than make them do the problem again with me watching. I suppose if I'd had consequences, the process would have been shorter. On the othe hand, as you pointed out, an angry and hurt 14yo is a very uncooperative 14yo and that defeats the purpose. And being only 14 and not really seeing things the way you do, they are just as hurt as angry, at least mine are. I don't think this is any help to you, because you many not be in a position to sit with your son to get him to write out all the steps, but hopefully it will help you to feel less frustrated with him to know that he sounds pretty normal. Good luck! I like your plan of pouring on the love. You know, I thought when my older one started taking CC classes that I'd never get any homeschooling done, with all the driving and the waiting. Then I discovered that my youngest and I like very much sitting in the coffee shop and working on math in a different environment. Mine, even with an older brother and plenty of exposure to other teenagers, were rather surpised at the clothing of both the boys and girls. Me, too. It is entertaining, that's for sure.

Good luck!

-Nan

[Jenn in CA]

CC Algebra is going to move faster than high school, one semester vs. one year. So that may be something to consider.

[Jann in TX]

I agree about the faster pace...finishing a text in one semester instead of 2...

 

I tutor some local CC students in remedial maths. It is NOT uncommon for them to have over 200 problems assigned each week--sometimes MORE! Most high school students--especially younger ones will not be mature enough to handle this load. The CC's remedial math course will be designed for students who are MOTIVATED to move on to the next class so they can start taking College Algebra for credit!

 

I teach/tutor from a math text that many CCs use (Lial). It would require 2-3 hours of work per day to complete it in one semester (a young high school student that is)--not sure it would be my choice for a non-motivated teen.

 

Our local CC uses a text that has TERRIBLE 'teaching/examples'...so that is something else to consider--the actual program your CC will be using...

[Guest Katia]

The first thing you might want to do is to talk with the math teacher(s) at the cc and see if they are willing and available to meet with students that need extra help.

 

Our ds did the cc algebra route because I could not explain it to him, and yes, it went faster, but that wasn't an issue with a teacher to both teach the lessons and whenever there was a concept he just couldn't get, he got the wonderful experience of calling/emailing his teacher, setting up a time and then showing up at said time to receive the help.

 

The teachers at our local cc are there to help. They WANT the kids to succeed so they go the extra mile. Hope yours is the same way.

[Kathy in MD]

Is your ds trying to understand the math? Or is he only trying to perform the steps without thinking about them?

My 14 yo ds trys to learn the steps without understanding them. This requires much more repetition of lessons and problems than if he just decided to engage his brain while watching the DVD's and working the problems.

 

I've just recently started asking him WHY he does each step. This occurred after I started riding him for not following the instructions on the DVD lectures that he show each step. I've also started watching the DVD's with him and checking the notes he takes from them. The few times he took notes, he invariable left out the reasons for doing something, warnings of common mistakes and hints. All he would do is copy the examples.

 

No matter how good the program is, if the child refuses to engage the brain, the program won't work. So I've started iratating my ds to death. He rants, he raves, but I have to ignore it. I now watch his work, I take notes with him and compare our notes, I ask over and over "Why did you do this?" frequently on each problem set, and the answer is invariably the basic principal being taught. He hates it because I'm forcing him to think. But he's starting to cave and answer me. He's ranting and raving less. But I know from past experience, if I slack off, he'll quickly fall into his old, lazy (he admits it) ways. So I'll be doing this for probably the next two years - at least.

[Ellie]

so if he takes the class and doesn't do well, he can drop it and take it again next semester, maybe with a different teacher. It will be fine.

[hornblower]

I have a 14 yo who started algebra around this time last year - when she was 13 - and we crashed and burned. The result of that little fiasco was that we took a full out holiday from all formal math for about 5 months.

During that time I was agonizing, trying to figure out if we needed to hire a tutor, if it was personality, if it was holes in her knowledge, or if we just needed time.

 

In the end, I decided that for her she just needed time and a good solid review to make her feel confident again. She'd completely lost her faith in her ability to think and that's what tore me up the most.

 

I was also reminded by a dear friend that my child was and is an 'attachment type' learner. I don't know if that's a real term or if it's something we've just made up among ourselves but this describes the kid who wants to do things WITH someone. As she was growing older and as I was getting busier with the 10yo, I was increasingly expecting the text book or a video lesson to teach her. But that's just not her, and when she comes across something hard, it adds a huge level of stress. She needs me to teach her, to do it with her - just like the poster above whose dad did her math homework with her in high school.

 

I think you mentioned doing a bit of geometry for a change? I think that would be a good idea. The cc course sounds like way too much pressure. I think a tutor would be good, esp. if you can find someone who is passionate about how fun math is, not just someone who can droningly explain it, kwim?

 

Lastly, don't forget to consider diet (I'd supplement with wild salmon oil esp), water, sleep and exercise.