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Please share your thoughts re: logic & rhetoric....


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Today Ds-13 took his test on Unit Three of Introductory Logic (Nance). Or, should I say he *looked* at it. :glare:

 

Given, this has been our first week of full-blown school since November 7 (due to a hysterectomy), but it is as if we had never cracked the book. (And, unfortunately, I do mean that for *both* of us - LOL!)

 

It just so happens that we covered the chapters on "Distributed Terms" and "Testing Syllogisms by Rules" this week, and that the sample chapter on-line for Traditional Logic is on "Distributed Terms". DS & I both agree that the Trad. Logic better explains the concepts behind the rules, making it easier both to understand and remember.

 

So, I'm really thinking we should stop with the Intro/Logic, and try for Traditional Logic later. I'm considering the following path for him, and I would love your thoughts:

 

8th gr, 2nd semester: Art of Argument

 

9th grade: The Argument Builder - maybe spread this out over the whole year

 

10th grade: Traditional Logic I and II (and maybe add in the Kreeft book rec. by Memoria Press, since he will be an older student?)

 

11th grade: Classical Rhetoric from Memoria Press (or whatever is out by then???)

 

Does this look ok? What would you change????

 

(I'm really undecided if we should do Traditional Logic *or* The Argument Builder first. And, it just occurred to me after proofing my post, maybe I should do Art of Argument and Argument Builder both in 9th? Boy, just when ya think ya got it all figured out, huh?)

 

Thanks for all your help!

Rhonda

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I found Introductory Logic ummmmmm....over my head....sorry, but true!

 

My kids do logic in this sequence now...

5th grade Mindbenders, Orbit w/ Logic and Logic Anyone?

6th: Fallacy Detective and more logic puzzles

7th: Thinking Toolbox and more logic puzzles

8th: The Art of Argument

9th Traditional Logic 1 & 2 w/ Memoria Press online tutorial just to keep me and them accountable.

10th grade: Rhetoric: (we used lots of writing/ arguing / persuasive speeches, but I think I will have ds do Rhetoric w/ Memoria Press in 11th and now add in Material Logic for 10th grade.

 

I have used this plan for 4 children so far (without the online tutorial for kiddoes 1 & 2 and I felt it gave them a good grounding in Logic and helped them immensely with proofs in Geometry as well as writing and speaking persuasively.

 

HTH

Faithe

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Intro and Intermed Logic are symbolic logic courses and could count as math classes. Traditional Logic is a language program. My kids and the kids in our co-op last year really struggled with the Intro and Intermed Logic. They are breezing through Trad. Logic and enjoying it.

We are following it up with Rhetoric by MP, too.

I'm not that familiar with the other books but I think 10 and 11th grade look good. You could probably do Trad. Logic in 9th grade.

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Thanks for posting! That looks like a great plan for my next two.

 

Just wondering, do you think 10th grade is "too late" for Trad. Logic? My original plan was just dropping everything logic-related (maybe going back to logic puzzles and re-reading Fallacy Detective, but nothing "formal"), and then doing the online Trad Logic class in 9th.

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Trad. Logic and the Logic by Nance are so very different. No complaints here. My 9th &12th graders are both doing Trad. Logic and both did the Nance logic. It's not "new" stuff for my 12th grader- it just "names" what she already knows-kwim? My then 11th grader didn't struggle (the only one in the class who didn't) with the Intro and Intermed Logic but my then 8th grader did. That really surprised me because my ds14 is the math guy and my dd 18 is NOT. In this case, though, I think it's a matter of logic vs. rhetoric stage vs math ability.

I actually think that my ds 14 appreciates doing the Trad.Logic this year because he usually doesn't struggle with anything academic and he hated that "lost" feeling that he had with the Nance program. So this year is a boost -kwim:)

I think doing Trad Logic in 8th grade is very do-able, especially with the videos.

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Thank you so much. I was worried about ds feeling he had "failed" iykwim (rather than understanding that I as a teacher wasn't informed enough to overcome the sparse-ness of the text). I'm feeling much better, and will probably go ahead and plan on Trad. Logic for 9th for him.

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I really like the Nance texts, but we didn't finish them. My dd is doing Traditional Logic in 9th this year with the videos. I have a degree in Phiolosophy and logic was one of my favorite classes in college, but even with my help my dd just didn't click with the Cannon Press books in 7th or 8th. I know some classical schools use these texts in middle school, so maybe I didn't present the material as well as I could have. I'm saving them to see if they will work with either of my younger two.

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I really like the Nance texts, but we didn't finish them. My dd is doing Traditional Logic in 9th this year with the videos. I have a degree in Phiolosophy and logic was one of my favorite classes in college, but even with my help my dd just didn't click with the Cannon Press books in 7th or 8th. I know some classical schools use these texts in middle school, so maybe I didn't present the material as well as I could have. I'm saving them to see if they will work with either of my younger two.

 

The text alone could be dry. Ds watches the Nance videos and seems to like them. They are short and sweet.

 

TL is on our horizons for next year.

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I read in a post on the "Old Board" that the Nance is kind of like an aerial view of all of logic, while Traditional covers less more deeply. I'm hoping that we find it so.

 

We have the Nance videos, and ds always understand the explanations. But, there is still nothing to "hang" that new knowledge onto. No stories or illustrations. It simply doesn't relate to what has been learned before, nor does it seem to be especially applicable once the test is taken. So, what we are doing is basically cramming for the exercises or the test, memorizing charts and such, and then promptly forgetting. (My basic high school experience all over again - LOL!)

 

That said, we have had a difficult year. Perhaps if we had been able to finish Intro before Christmas (the original plan!), it would have been much easier to keep all the info in mind.

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I read in a post on the "Old Board" that the Nance is kind of like an aerial view of all of logic, while Traditional covers less more deeply. I'm hoping that we find it so.

 

We have the Nance videos, and ds always understand the explanations. But, there is still nothing to "hang" that new knowledge onto. No stories or illustrations. It simply doesn't relate to what has been learned before, nor does it seem to be especially applicable once the test is taken. So, what we are doing is basically cramming for the exercises or the test, memorizing charts and such, and then promptly forgetting. (My basic high school experience all over again - LOL!)

 

That said, we have had a difficult year. Perhaps if we had been able to finish Intro before Christmas (the original plan!), it would have been much easier to keep all the info in mind.

 

Yes, a downfall of our home-ed, imho. I could not provide the discussions needed to enhance the logic dvds. We were originally registered for Nance's online class but something had to give this year. Logic really does need a discussion element for kids to really get it, imho.

 

I will most likely put ds in Mr. Cothran's TL online class when the time comes.

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