Is this too much for a 15 yo ninth-grader--Be honest!

[ChemMommy]

I'm going to be very transparent here--I haven't done a great job with the quantity and rigor of schoolwork with my kids over the last few years. Yeah, I've got excuses, really good ones. But that's irrelevant. Things have settled down and I have to face the consequences of a couple of slough (?sp) years.

 

My son broke down in tears and cried today, saying he was stressed out about school. I'd like to share a typical day and get your feedback on:

 

1: whether I am assigning too much

2: assigning the right amount but have just made too big of a jump in rigor

3: assigning too little and need to still improve

4: assigning about the right amount and need to help ds adjust quickly

 

Ds is 15, and a 9th grader. He's been at home for school the entire time. We've used SL though last year, but taken 18 months for each core. He's bright and can teach himself independently of me. He manages his own workload when given a week's worth of assignments with little oversight from me. He wants to be a pastor.

 

Here's today's worklist:

 

 

• chores (clean main bathroom, vacuum living room, basic grooming, general bedroom straightening)
  
• devotions/prayers
  
• two sections of Elementary Greek I (I told you I was being transparent about how behind we are in school)
  
• algebra I with VT algebra (he's in Unit C)
  
• one section of Vocabulary from Classical Roots A
  
• two sections of Vocabulary for Enjoyment
  
• one or two lines from the Italic Handwriting book
  
• one part of a Building Spelling Skills book
  
• four pages of reading in Apologia Biology, associated vocabulary, and one experiment
  
• write one paragraph about something you read today
  
• outline one paragraph you read today
  

 

We are using TOG Year 1 for our spine. Here's what was one today's list:

 

 

• Identify a dozen places on a map by consulting an historical atlas
  
• Read one page of Spielvogel's Western Civilization
  
• Watch Lecture 1 of "Ancient Civilizations" from the Teaching Company
  
• Read chapters 1-2 of "Story of the Greeks" by Grueber
  
• Read 10 pages of "Mythology" by Edith Hamilton
  
• Read 7 pages of "These were the Greeks"
  
• Read chapter 11 of "Knowing God"
  
• Listen to Lecture 1 of "Masterpieces of Greek Literature" from TTC
  
• Read books 1 and 6 of the Iliad
  
• Read 15 pages of "Black Ships before Troy"
  
• Read one page of "Story of Painting"
  

 

Is this too much? too little? just right? (Yikes, that sounds like the "Three Bears" story!). I look at it and think that it's a hard week with TOG, harder than normal, but not crazy. Especially when he knows that I'll happily give him Sat/Sun to finish up or even bump stuff into next week, if necessary. I also see a glaring lack of writing activities that will help him become a good writer. Even I recognize that "journaling" about what you've read is twaddle. I want to add a significant writing portion to our day but his response to a tough TOG week keeps me from doing that.

 

So, what think you? You can be honest.

 

Thanks for reading this far:001_smile:

[SonshineLearner]

How many hours of work would this be? I'd say that the language should be at least a minimum of what you've put for Greek. I'd want him learning Latin and Hebrew, too. My father, who has his degree in Theology (and one in Law) started learning by himself. He's kinda crazy.:-) After talking about what he did in highschool...and comparing it to what is considered a true classical education, I realize that he gave himself as close as he could...to a classical education. NOW, some will tell you that Pastors don't need to know Greek and Hebrew, but to me, I've never respected pastors that haven't taken the time to learn the original languages...as much as I have those who have studied.

Could you get a really educated Man to mentor him, so that he at least sees where he can be going? Try pastors, including...maybe especially... retired ones. Ones who went to Seminary a long time ago would be my pick!

 

This is what I'd have him doing:

chores (clean main bathroom, vacuum living room, basic grooming, general bedroom straightening)

devotions/prayers

two sections of Elementary Greek I (I told you I was being transparent about how behind we are in school)

four pages of reading in Apologia Biology, associated vocabulary, and one experiment

write one paragraph about something you read today

algebra I with VT algebra (he's in Unit C)

I'd have him check out books on audio when possible, too, to save on the reading....

And...the bottom part, I'd have him do until "school time" was over. For a 15 year old, I would think that he should be doing about 6-8 hrs of school work a day.

Carrie:-)

Who has a 16 year old....

Edited January 7, 2009 by NayfiesMama
Always find a mistake, just after I hit "send."

[Michelle in AL]

To be honest the reading list from TOG looks overwhelming. I wonder if he'd be better served by reading just 2 books at a time. The most my 9th grader can handle is 45 minutes of great books/day, about 30 minutes of one history text and 30 minutes of a different, easier book for literature. Maybe he's having trouble with all the various readings. He may be reading just to get through the list and not retaining much (I'm just guessing here~that's what mine would do). Mine do better if they can just concentrate on a couple books.

I would love to do TTC lectures, but my kids would probably go crazy with that on top of everything else, I know others here do well with them though.

You still have a lot of LA with 2 vocab programs, spelling and handwriting. Could you cut out handwriting, one vocab program and handwriting?

[Deece in MN]

Overall, I wouldn't say it is expecting too much, it just may need some tweaking.

I agree that the reading list from TOG could possibly be overwhelming. Some people have a hard time reading more than 1 or 2 books at a time and keeping them straight. Could this be part of the problem?

I also agree that 6-8 hours a day is reasonable to expect from a 15yo. How long does it take him to do the day's work? I am all for bumping things to the next day or whatever when needed, but I am also for diligence in my dc work. I am not saying your ds isn't diligent, but I know if I allow my dc to bump things too often it just becomes a pattern/habit. So, I have really buckled down on my dc this year and they know that if they put in the effort and still need more time they can have it, but if they are lollygagging and not putting forth the effort that I will make them do the work on their free time.

Did you ease into this new schedule a bit? Jumping from a light schedule to a more rigorous one could also be a factor for him feeling overwhelmed. Does he need help in learning how to make the best use of his time?

Also, I know for me that when I see a big list of things to do I get overwhelmed and don't want to do any of it, but if I have just a couple things I can do it. Then I can do a couple more and a couple more and pretty soon I have done the whole list. Maybe he needs to be given work in smaller chunks.

I was also going to ask if he needs spelling and handwriting and a second vocab. program? That seems a bit much for 15. I tend to think that if by that point the handwriting hasn't improved, teach typing. :) I would also address spelling issues as they come up in writing, but not require a spelling program in high school.

Anyway, I don't know if any of these thoughts apply or are helpful, just throwing them out there.

I have been btdt and it is hard, but you'll get through it. :grouphug:

[ChemMommy]

How many hours of work would this be? I'd say that the language should be at least a minimum of what you've put for Greek. I'd want him learning Latin and Hebrew, too.

 

 

For a 15 year old, I would think that he should be doing about 6-8 hrs of school work a day.

 

Carrie,

 

Thanks for taking the time to reply.

 

I said that I was being transparent--we have never done a foreign language! That's why he's in the ELEMENTARY Greek level. I'd like to get him through all 3 levels of Greek this year so that next year, we can do something more rigorous. He has the opportunity to take, for free, college Greek classes. I'd love to see him take advantage of that. Hopefully, then, he can take Hebrew when he is actually in college. We are so far behind in this area, I think that this is about all I can honestly expect.

 

He will be required to know Greek and Hebrew in seminary, if not before.

[ChemMommy]

To be honest the reading list from TOG looks overwhelming. I wonder if he'd be better served by reading just 2 books at a time. The most my 9th grader can handle is 45 minutes of great books/day, about 30 minutes of one history text and 30 minutes of a different, easier book for literature. Maybe he's having trouble with all the various readings. He may be reading just to get through the list and not retaining much (I'm just guessing here~that's what mine would do). Mine do better if they can just concentrate on a couple books.

I would love to do TTC lectures, but my kids would probably go crazy with that on top of everything else, I know others here do well with them though.

You still have a lot of LA with 2 vocab programs, spelling and handwriting. Could you cut out handwriting, one vocab program and handwriting?

 

I could rearrange the work so that he reads more of one or two books at a time, rather than spreading it out over the week. I never looked at it the way you did. Thanks!

 

Why the vocab/spelling/handwriting in 9th grade? Did I mention that I've failed my kids? We have done no formal vocab or roots work prior to this year. His spelling is okay but not great. Dh requested that handwriting be taught.

 

I'm hoping to wrap up the vocab books by the end of January and replace it with a writing program.

 

Just call me a mom who woke up and smelled college on the horizon and panicked. I've probably jumped up in intensity too much. (But, I could also be dealing with a 15 yo male who isn't wanting to work very hard---his 3 sisters aren't complaining about their workload.......)

[ChemMommy]

I also agree that 6-8 hours a day is reasonable to expect from a 15yo. How long does it take him to do the day's work?

 

Ah, if he hits 4 hours a day, I'd be surprised. But he dillydallies--you know, he works for 10 minutes and has to stop to pet the cat. He works for 5 minutes and has to stop to see what is sister is reading. You get the picture?

 

I am all for bumping things to the next day or whatever when needed, but I am also for diligence in my dc work. I am not saying your ds isn't diligent, but I know if I allow my dc to bump things too often it just becomes a pattern/habit. So, I have really buckled down on my dc this year and they know that if they put in the effort and still need more time they can have it, but if they are lollygagging and not putting forth the effort that I will make them do the work on their free time.

 

I'm willing to bump to the weekend (hey, if they are slow, they can lose their weekend free-time!) I don't bump into the next week unless I can see evidence that they have tried and are struggling to learn something. But, YIKES, the lollygagging! I'll have to work on his self-discipline more.

 

Did you ease into this new schedule a bit? Jumping from a light schedule to a more rigorous one could also be a factor for him feeling overwhelmed.

 

This is our first year working at this pace and the pace is substantially more than even last year, which was a step up. All 4 kids have commented strongly that this year's pace is MUCH more than last year. But, we've been faithfully at this for 4 months. And many TOG weeks are not as heavy as this one. I wonder if this is a I-just-came-back-from-Christmas-Break problem?

 

 

I was also going to ask if he needs spelling and handwriting and a second vocab. program? That seems a bit much for 15. I tend to think that if by that point the handwriting hasn't improved, teach typing. :) I would also address spelling issues as they come up in writing, but not require a spelling program in high school.

 

We are doing the vocab/spelling/handwriting stuff because we ARE that behind in college prep work. And those books take 30 minutes a day or less, so I don't feel THAT bad about assigning the work.

 

I think the poor kid is just discovering that he has to work in school. He's been coasting (my fault) and the whole "work" thing is a shock. He has NEVER, EVER spent 6 hours on a school day. Not even 5. Today, we were approaching 5 hours and he fell apart. Sigh! Mostly, I kept working with him thinking to myself, "It sure is tough to grow up!"

[Peela]

My dd14has done a pretty consistent 20-25 hour week for a couple of years now and will definitely be doing closer to 25 hours or even 30 this coming year...I am about to jump my ds13 from a 20 hour to a 25 hour. This includes reading. He will freak :)

However if neither had been doing much work consistently...it would be quite a shock to suddenly jump to 6 hour days. I wouldn't blame the child for not being able to focus and apply himself if he hasnt been taught over a period of years- but he will learn if he is consistently guided in that direction. I think it might take lots of patience on your part though :)

[elegantlion]

My ds isn't there yet, but the reading list seems really scattered to me. That's a lot of jumping around for one day and I know my ds and me would need time to digest the material before moving on. It's very hard for us to just switch gears after reading.

[Gwen in VA]

I would ditch handwriting no matter HOW bad his handwriting is! (Both of my boys have absolutely undecipherable handwriting. I was amazed that the SAT folks could even read ds1's essay!)

 

Also, I would pare down on the reading. My Ds2 is 15, and he would have a fit at that long reading list. I would feel pretty intimidated myself!

 

One suggestion -- decide what is REALLY important to you for the rest of this school year. Is it math? Greek? Reading? Writing? Then make sure that that subject (or maybe two) happens every day no matter what. No excuses. Make sure that he is producing quality work in that subject. Make sure that he understands what he needs to do to excel in that one (or those two) subjects.

 

By absolutely focusing on one (or two) subjects, you are setting a realistic goal for yourself and him -- excellence in that one or those two areas. (That doesn't mean that he slacks off on the other areas -- just that this one area is the one you are REALLY pushing him in). Hopefully he will begin to understand what excellence is in that area and begin to carry over what he has learned in that area to other areas.

 

Next year you can move the focus to another area that needs help!

[Karenciavo]

I was with you until I saw the TOG schedule. Too much. Why read the Iliad and Black Ships? It seems like you are trying to squeeze a week's worth of reading into one day.

[Mrs. Readsalot]

To be honest the reading list from TOG looks overwhelming. I wonder if he'd be better served by reading just 2 books at a time. The most my 9th grader can handle is 45 minutes of great books/day, about 30 minutes of one history text and 30 minutes of a different, easier book for literature. Maybe he's having trouble with all the various readings. He may be reading just to get through the list and not retaining much (I'm just guessing here~that's what mine would do). Mine do better if they can just concentrate on a couple books.

I would love to do TTC lectures, but my kids would probably go crazy with that on top of everything else, I know others here do well with them though.

You still have a lot of LA with 2 vocab programs, spelling and handwriting. Could you cut out handwriting, one vocab program and handwriting?

I agree with this post, Wow he is doing a lot of history in one day. It looks overwhelming, and at a point he probably just shuts down and it not retaining the infomation anymore. I actually still read aloud to my 9th grader while he eats breakfast and lunch and after dinner we do a family read aloud(taking turns reading) Could some of the reading be done in this way. Black Ships before Troy makes a great read aloud.

[JFSinIL]

Looks great except for the overload of history material. Pare it down! The kid must feel overwhelmed!

[FloridaLisa]

 

 

• chores (clean main bathroom, vacuum living room, basic grooming, general bedroom straightening)

• devotions/prayers

 

This is fine; just keep in mind it's part of the daily workload. The chores and decent devotional time would take about 1 1/2 hours around here.

 

 

two sections of Elementary Greek I (I told you I was being transparent about how behind we are in school)

 

30 minutes?

 

algebra I with VT algebra (he's in Unit C)

 

1 hour?

 

one section of Vocabulary from Classical Roots A

two sections of Vocabulary for Enjoyment

one or two lines from the Italic Handwriting book

one part of a Building Spelling Skills book

 

Another hour if he works efficiently through the books. Does he need the spelling and two vocab books? Is there a way to combine these three books at this point? And I would agree to drop the handwriting.

 

four pages of reading in Apologia Biology, associated vocabulary, and one experiment

 

If this includes experiment set up, clean up and lab report, you are looking at 1 to 1 1/2 hours.

 

write one paragraph about something you read today

outline one paragraph you read today

 

If I'm estimating correctly, this would take about 5 1/2 to 6 hours up to this point. Does that look about right? That's 15 minutes per workbook and 30 minutes for the two writing lessons which is pushing it.

 

 

We are using TOG Year 1 for our spine. Here's what was one today's list:

 

• Identify a dozen places on a map by consulting an historical atlas

• Read one page of Spielvogel's Western Civilization

• Watch Lecture 1 of "Ancient Civilizations" from the Teaching Company

• Read chapters 1-2 of "Story of the Greeks" by Grueber

• Read 10 pages of "Mythology" by Edith Hamilton

• Read 7 pages of "These were the Greeks"

• Read chapter 11 of "Knowing God"

• Listen to Lecture 1 of "Masterpieces of Greek Literature" from TTC

• Read books 1 and 6 of the Iliad

• Read 15 pages of "Black Ships before Troy"

• Read one page of "Story of Painting"

 

 

This is all good stuff and there's a temptation to do it all! But it's redundant and chops up the lesson too much. I'd streamline to map work, one major spine and one independent read at a time. With both TTC lectures, the reading and map work as you have it, I would estimate it taking over 5 hours. That sounds crazy but add it up! It's a lot! My kids actually do a lot of work, but it's in bigger chunks, which I think is a bit more efficient.

 

Perhaps because you feel "behind" you are scheduling out of fear. I would second Gwen's advice to define your goals and the key areas you want to emphasize this year. Make those your core and build the rest around it. If basic skills like spelling still need to be addressed, now's the time, but you have to really allow the time to nail it now or it will get lost in all the rest that's going on. Perhaps you could use the summer for a handwriting intensive or special study that you want to include but can't fit in the regular school year.

 

:grouphug: It's hard to find just the right balance. You are getting some great advice in this thread though.

 

HTH,

Lisa

Edited January 7, 2009 by FloridaLisa

[SonshineLearner]

From Carrie:-)

Sorry that I sounded harsh about the language. I didn't mean to sound like I was getting down on you about being in Elementary Greek, I was trying to let you know that I'd concentrate on the languages, because I hear that languages really aren't always taught in Seminary now. Also, because that is his area of desire for serving, that while he's young...it's a great time to learn a couple. I believe that in 4 years...that's plenty of time to learn Latin and at least one other language...and perhaps even be exposed to another. 3-4 years is alot of time for a student that is serious....especially if he's self motivated about it. If you were in OR, I'd have my dad encourage him! He loves to encourage new students in languages..and general:-)

Carrie:-)

[Michelle in AL]

Hi Pam, I want to encourage you not to be so down on yourself. I'd be willing to bet most of us have left chunks out of our kid's education. I think we all have our :w00t: moments before and during high school. I think the key is to use those moments for motivation to reassess. You've obviously done that and he seems to be right on track for 9th grade~algebra, biology, strong history.

BTW, we're still doing spelling too, and we've done it every yr with only baby step improvements. Same for vocab, we've done it, but I'm not sure it sticks. I've seen the biggest jump in vocab with reading the great books this yr.

[at the beach]

I'm going to be very transparent here--I haven't done a great job with the quantity and rigor of schoolwork with my kids over the last few years. Yeah, I've got excuses, really good ones. But that's irrelevant. Things have settled down and I have to face the consequences of a couple of slough (?sp) years.

 

My son broke down in tears and cried today, saying he was stressed out about school. I'd like to share a typical day and get your feedback on:

 

1: whether I am assigning too much

2: assigning the right amount but have just made too big of a jump in rigor

3: assigning too little and need to still improve

4: assigning about the right amount and need to help ds adjust quickly

 

Ds is 15, and a 9th grader. He's been at home for school the entire time. We've used SL though last year, but taken 18 months for each core. He's bright and can teach himself independently of me. He manages his own workload when given a week's worth of assignments with little oversight from me. He wants to be a pastor.

 

Here's today's worklist:

 

 

 

• chores (clean main bathroom, vacuum living room, basic grooming, general bedroom straightening)

• devotions/prayers

• two sections of Elementary Greek I (I told you I was being transparent about how behind we are in school)

• algebra I with VT algebra (he's in Unit C)

• one section of Vocabulary from Classical Roots A

• two sections of Vocabulary for Enjoyment

• one or two lines from the Italic Handwriting book

• one part of a Building Spelling Skills book

• four pages of reading in Apologia Biology, associated vocabulary, and one experiment

• write one paragraph about something you read today

• outline one paragraph you read today

 

 

We are using TOG Year 1 for our spine. Here's what was one today's list:

 

 

 

• Identify a dozen places on a map by consulting an historical atlas

• Read one page of Spielvogel's Western Civilization

• Watch Lecture 1 of "Ancient Civilizations" from the Teaching Company

• Read chapters 1-2 of "Story of the Greeks" by Grueber

• Read 10 pages of "Mythology" by Edith Hamilton

• Read 7 pages of "These were the Greeks"

• Read chapter 11 of "Knowing God"

• Listen to Lecture 1 of "Masterpieces of Greek Literature" from TTC

• Read books 1 and 6 of the Iliad

• Read 15 pages of "Black Ships before Troy"

• Read one page of "Story of Painting"

 

 

Is this too much? too little? just right? (Yikes, that sounds like the "Three Bears" story!). I look at it and think that it's a hard week with TOG, harder than normal, but not crazy. Especially when he knows that I'll happily give him Sat/Sun to finish up or even bump stuff into next week, if necessary. I also see a glaring lack of writing activities that will help him become a good writer. Even I recognize that "journaling" about what you've read is twaddle. I want to add a significant writing portion to our day but his response to a tough TOG week keeps me from doing that.

 

So, what think you? You can be honest.

 

Thanks for reading this far:001_smile:

 

Perhaps I shouldn't jump in as I did not hs my oldest who is 20. My two I am hs are 12 and 9. But looking at what you are expecting does seem overwhelming. Too much stuff and perhaps too much of a jump in rigor too soon. IMO trying to do a lot will lead to getting not a lot done. ;) I know that from personal experience with myself and my kids. My guess is you feel pressure to catch up. I say, take a deep breath and look at the situation closely, think about your goals for your child and his goals for himself and go from there.

 

Some general thoughts: First with handwriting--I will say my oldest dd has horrible handwriting. She prints in tiny little print. Never writes in cursive. Did not write in cursive on her SAT/ACT essays. Managed 11's on them. So, you know, I would not worry about handwriting at this point with your son.

 

Next, what does your son enjoy about school? You say he wants to be a pastor, but is he more into science and math or history or lit? If he is into science or math, I would for sure lighten up on history and English. If he's interested in history and/or English, I'd still lighten up in those areas. ;) What Cores did you do? Is there a reason you are switching from SL? Did he enjoy SL? Perhaps going from SL to such heavy books and in such quantity might simply be too much for him--too much of a jump in rigor. I waffle on the GB thing but really love, love, love SL and I think we will be staying with SL with some modifications perhaps.

 

IMO, based on you saying you need to catch up, I would streamline things and focus this year on math, science, and Greek for the most part, the basics. And writing. Then, I would add in some history and a lit program, but not too heavy. If SL worked, I would use that but again, move through it slower. SL upper cores are directed at the student, so that's a plus as you say he's an independent learner. With what you list, unless you are heavily interacting with him, I think it would be a hard, hard road. I would ditch all vocab except one. I would add in some more formal writing instruction. Do you have The Lively Art of Writing? Upper Cores (if that's something you would consider) include LA but I have heard the writing needs beefed up a bit??? Have no clue on that, though. I don't at all think journaling is twaddle. I really think the more one writes, the better they get at written self-expression, so I would keep that up. I'm assuming he's good to go with grammar as you don't have that listed.

 

This is all just my humble opinion. I am sorry you're feeling overwhelmed about not doing enough up until now. But I really think you've probably done more than you think! You say your child is bright and capable and a self-learner. That's absolutely fabulous. He sounds like a really delightful child. Enjoy him while he's still home and look to him and what's right for him for guidance as to how you want to proceed. Time flies so quickly. I cannot believe my oldest is in her second year of college.

 

Anita

[Miss Marple]

Gotta agree about the TOG reading list. That would send my 15 yob over the edge. Personally I would quit handwriting. IMO if it isn't great at this point, it never will be - thankfully we have keyboards. Vocab. from Classical Roots was something my boys agonized over. It doesn't necessarily take that long to do, but it seemed to be tedious work for them. Maybe you could just do one vocabulary program? We also nix spelling after 8th grade, but I have great spellers so that might not be good for you.

 

Chores: I don't know what size of home you have or how thorough you expect it to be cleaned, but I think I would only assign 1 chore per day (either the bathroom or the vacuuming).

 

I think my boys have too much unstructured time, but when I've tried to use that time for academics, the quality of work they did really suffered. I think 6 hours of SOLID school work is enough for my 15 yob's brain. I'm sure there are some kids who can and want to do more, I just didn't produce any of that sort.

[Beth in SW WA]

Ah, if he hits 4 hours a day, I'd be surprised. But he dillydallies--you know, he works for 10 minutes and has to stop to pet the cat. He works for 5 minutes and has to stop to see what is sister is reading. You get the picture?

 

 

Yes! My ds 13 does terrible during transitions. He's done w/ something, then comes upstairs to get a book, check his agenda, get a snack, etc -- yada, yada, yada - Its 10 min later and he's not back to work!

 

The bane of my existence is keeping him on task during the day when transitioning from one subject to another.

 

Calgon!

[choirfarm]

I wanted to comment on TOG

We are using TOG Year 1 for our spine. Here's what was one today's list:

 

 

 

• Identify a dozen places on a map by consulting an historical atlas
  
• Read one page of Spielvogel's Western Civilization
  
• Watch Lecture 1 of "Ancient Civilizations" from the Teaching Company
  
• Read chapters 1-2 of "Story of the Greeks" by Grueber
  
• Read 10 pages of "Mythology" by Edith Hamilton
  
• Read 7 pages of "These were the Greeks"
  
• Read chapter 11 of "Knowing God"
  
• Listen to Lecture 1 of "Masterpieces of Greek Literature" from TTC
  
• Read books 1 and 6 of the Iliad
  
• Read 15 pages of "Black Ships before Troy"
  
• Read one page of "Story of Painting"
  

I am doing TOG and it looks like you have both Dialectic AND Rhetoric work here using both regular and alternate resources. WAY WAY WAY too much and history was my minor. AS others said, it is too scattered as well. I would have him read the week's worth of Speigovil one day with maybe mapwork. Then EITHER Iliad or Black Ships Before Troy (they are the same story..did you know that??) The next day have him watch The Teaching Company tapes and do Story of Painting and Knowing God. If you are having him do questions, then I would have him work on those as he reads. You have way too much: 2 lectures to listen to, 2 versions of the Illiad, Speigovil and then all the Greek history texts.. Good grief. I didn't have that much to read in college!!!

Christine

[momof2boys]

Personally I think the TOG readings are way too much for one day. I think having him read from the Western Civ book and 2 other resources would be enough. Does he really need to do 2 vocabulary programs? I personally think one is enough. Thise are just my suggestions.

gloria

[momof2boys]

Forgot to mention the spelling and Handwriting books. I think that you could probaly drop these and just have him practice his handwriting and spelling with his composition.

Gloria

[ChemMommy]

It really opened up a nice conversation. He agreed with several points you guys made.

 

We decided that:

 

1. he is feeling very stressed as Senior Patrol Leader for scouts

2. he is indeed just reading to get through the material and not for understanding.

3. he is stressed because this week of TOG is one of the higher intensity weeks. (I have noticed that the workload in a TOG week varies significantly)

4. it is shocking to come back to this much work after Christmas break

5. he is getting nothing from the handwriting program

6. he thinks Vocabulary for Enjoyment 3 is a waste of time since he knows the words

7. it "might" help if he read more of one book a day rather than a bit of several books.

 

 

Here's what we did to his workload:

 

1. We dropped the "Knowing God" book for this week

2. We dropped handwriting entirely

3. We dropped Vocabulary for Enjoyment 3 entirely

4. We will drop spelling after this year

5. We will continue with Classical Roots since he is learning a lot from it (his words, not mine)

6. He will cluster his reading in history or literature as he would like and be responsible for finishing it over 7 days, rather than 5.

7. We would listen to the two TTC videos together this week and see if they are adding enough to his learning to justify the time

8. We would continue to read the Iliad for this week to see if the load becomes more manageable but be open to dropping it next week.

9. We cut the longer bio experiment this week since he really isn't interested in science.

 

 

So, we finish this meeting and the kid spends 30 minutes narrating every single detail of Black Ships before Troy. He certainly is getting a lot out of it. And he did admit that reading that book made the actual Iliad more understandable. He asked if it would be a disaster if he never read the read Iliad. WHAT SAY YOU??

 

Now, I can't say that dropping handwriting, one vocab, one theology book, and one bio experiment would make me feeling less stressed, but he was a happy camper!

 

Thank you ALL who took the time to type your thoughts. I really appreciated the feedback. He was especially struck by how many of you expected your teen to study 6-8 hours. He really needed to hear that from another adult today.

 

I'll keep you posted on how it goes......

[ChemMommy]

From Carrie:-)

Sorry that I sounded harsh about the language. I didn't mean to sound like I was getting down on you about being in Elementary Greek, I was trying to let you know that I'd concentrate on the languages, because I hear that languages really aren't always taught in Seminary now. Also, because that is his area of desire for serving, that while he's young...it's a great time to learn a couple. I believe that in 4 years...that's plenty of time to learn Latin and at least one other language...and perhaps even be exposed to another. 3-4 years is alot of time for a student that is serious....especially if he's self motivated about it. If you were in OR, I'd have my dad encourage him! He loves to encourage new students in languages..and general:-)

Carrie:-)

 

In fact, I didn't think your language was harsh. Remember: I asked for feedback.

 

I just wish your dad was around here to encourage my son. We've been blessed to have two vicars at our church the last two years (these are guys with two years of seminary done) who have openly discussed the ministry with my son and have admitted that they wished they had learned Greek and Hebrew before seminary. At seminary, they cram it in and both vicars admitted freely that what was crammed in, just flowed right back out. Neither of them felt they knew beans about the Greek New Testament. But, both thought that Hebrew was easier than Greek. Go figure!

 

Thanks for taking the time to reply!

[ChemMommy]

I would ditch handwriting no matter HOW bad his handwriting is! (Both of my boys have absolutely undecipherable handwriting. I was amazed that the SAT folks could even read ds1's essay!)

 

Also, I would pare down on the reading. My Ds2 is 15, and he would have a fit at that long reading list. I would feel pretty intimidated myself!

 

One suggestion -- decide what is REALLY important to you for the rest of this school year. Is it math? Greek? Reading? Writing? Then make sure that that subject (or maybe two) happens every day no matter what. No excuses. Make sure that he is producing quality work in that subject. Make sure that he understands what he needs to do to excel in that one (or those two) subjects.

 

By absolutely focusing on one (or two) subjects, you are setting a realistic goal for yourself and him -- excellence in that one or those two areas. (That doesn't mean that he slacks off on the other areas -- just that this one area is the one you are REALLY pushing him in). Hopefully he will begin to understand what excellence is in that area and begin to carry over what he has learned in that area to other areas.

 

Next year you can move the focus to another area that needs help!

 

 

I know that I've been rather panicked about what hasn't been done and have felt the need to get caught up NOW, rather than Later. Thanks for you comments--they were helpful!

[ChemMommy]

Hi Pam, I want to encourage you not to be so down on yourself. I'd be willing to bet most of us have left chunks out of our kid's education. I think we all have our :w00t: moments before and during high school. I think the key is to use those moments for motivation to reassess. You've obviously done that and he seems to be right on track for 9th grade~algebra, biology, strong history.

BTW, we're still doing spelling too, and we've done it every yr with only baby step improvements. Same for vocab, we've done it, but I'm not sure it sticks. I've seen the biggest jump in vocab with reading the great books this yr.

 

 

We've done a reasonable job with science and math (hey, I'm a chem prof, so that part comes easily to me), a decent job in history, and a poor job in language arts and foreign languages. I needed to hear today that I'd done something well.

[SonshineLearner]

Hey Pam,

 

So, you're Catholic? When my mom gets stuck on Latin,(she's doing Henle, after finishing LCi and II), she calls our local Abbey. She asked this last time, if lay people are allowed to take Latin there. Taking Latin will really make his brain work, too. My kids kinda fuss about it, but they do it.... My 10 year old jokes that she's gonna marry someone who took Latin while homeschooled and speak it to her children as their mother tongue. It could be the homeschool "secret language." Anyway, Priests and such seem to find true joy when they hear that homeschoolers/private schoolers are taking Latin and other Ancient Languages. Maybe you can find a kindred Priest, too. It's great that you have vicars to talk with your son, these are men in training? It might also be kinda fun to hear someone fluently read Greek, for your son....

Let us know of your progress, as your son adjusts to this new workload.

Carrie:-)

[mcconnellboys]

For ninth grade, my older son had a solid 6-7 hours of daily work to do. I don't think this looks like too much. But since you say this is a significant step up from last year, he may just need more time to transition into even higher levels of work. Can you continue at this level for the rest of this school year, before upping the ante again?

[Deece in MN]

It really opened up a nice conversation. He agreed with several points you guys made.

 

We decided that:

 

1. he is feeling very stressed as Senior Patrol Leader for scouts

2. he is indeed just reading to get through the material and not for understanding.

3. he is stressed because this week of TOG is one of the higher intensity weeks. (I have noticed that the workload in a TOG week varies significantly)

4. it is shocking to come back to this much work after Christmas break

5. he is getting nothing from the handwriting program

6. he thinks Vocabulary for Enjoyment 3 is a waste of time since he knows the words

7. it "might" help if he read more of one book a day rather than a bit of several books.

 

 

Here's what we did to his workload:

 

1. We dropped the "Knowing God" book for this week

2. We dropped handwriting entirely

3. We dropped Vocabulary for Enjoyment 3 entirely

4. We will drop spelling after this year

5. We will continue with Classical Roots since he is learning a lot from it (his words, not mine)

6. He will cluster his reading in history or literature as he would like and be responsible for finishing it over 7 days, rather than 5.

7. We would listen to the two TTC videos together this week and see if they are adding enough to his learning to justify the time

8. We would continue to read the Iliad for this week to see if the load becomes more manageable but be open to dropping it next week.

9. We cut the longer bio experiment this week since he really isn't interested in science.

 

 

So, we finish this meeting and the kid spends 30 minutes narrating every single detail of Black Ships before Troy. He certainly is getting a lot out of it. And he did admit that reading that book made the actual Iliad more understandable. He asked if it would be a disaster if he never read the read Iliad. WHAT SAY YOU??

 

Now, I can't say that dropping handwriting, one vocab, one theology book, and one bio experiment would make me feeling less stressed, but he was a happy camper!

 

Thank you ALL who took the time to type your thoughts. I really appreciated the feedback. He was especially struck by how many of you expected your teen to study 6-8 hours. He really needed to hear that from another adult today.

 

I'll keep you posted on how it goes......

 

Wow, I am glad you had a good conversation with your ds. It is also neat to see that he was open to reading these responses and that you were able to work out a schedule that you both can be okay with. My ds would have a "eh, whatever you want to do mom" type attitude which makes changing things hard sometimes or even choosing things to begin with.

 

Anyway, I also wanted to apologize for not giving you a pat on the back for the good work you have done (I am having trouble wording this how I want it to sound so I hope my meaning is coming across well). I got caught up in responding to your questions and only focused on my thoughts in regards to them. It can be hard when we ask questions like that and get feedback that we may need or want to hear, but can sometimes contribute to a feeling of not measuring up. It does sound like you have done a good job and are on-track. A little tweaking and some patience to work through the process and it sounds like you both will be fine. :)

 

Have fun!

[PamJH]

I also like how you talked with your son and that you both were willing to compromise. That shows maturity on his part and and a certain latitude on yours. Kudos.

 

Here's what I also wonder: How many of us would hit the books at our age the way we demand our children do? Some of us would likely jump at the chance, but what would we do if we found the material dull or boring, or simply not to our taste? Would we still jump at the chance and do everything cheerfully and without complaint? We have to factor in here that we are (maybe!) more mature and can see the value in it where teens sometimes can't. And I do know that's why we make these decisions for them.

 

I can't say I would always do what I demand of the kids. But they don't know that.

 

Pam

[FloridaLisa]

I'm glad you both were able to hash it out and make some profitable changes. This is not a perfect science. :tongue_smilie: One of the joys of homeschooling, for me, is the flexibiilty and tailoring that it allows.

 

Have a great evening,

Lisa

[Janice in NJ]

Chiming in a bit late here -

 

But have you seen the sample schedules for Year 1 on the TOG site? They are for weeks 1-3, but they do help you see how to spread the assignments out over the course of a week. It might help. And it might help you see the different credits being offered by the TOG program. I plan assignments based on the credits that we are earning for that year. (Example: We didn't use the Art History info in Year 1 because my son was not working toward a Fine Arts credit that year.)

 

http://www.tapestryofgrace.com/loom/year-all/scheduling.php

 

Many high school programs cover The Odyssey. I have seen only a few that tackle The Iliad. So no, it won't be the end of the world if you read Black Ships for the story line, discuss some of the themes, and move on. Don't let it make or break your plans/goals/life.

 

If you feel that you haven't given language arts the attention that it needs, then change that. I would encourage you to just start today! My kids read a lot, but my oldest didn't like to write. Reading assignments rather than writing assignment were easier for me to dish up, but it wasn't what he needed. The boy needed to write more every day. I try to keep my focus there as much as I can by making time for it AND making sure that it happens.

 

My ds is in 10th grade. He worked at least 8 hours per day (40+) per week last year when he was in 9th grade. :001_smile:

 

Peace to you and yours this morning! I hope that you have a GREAT day!

Janice

 

Enjoy your little people

Enjoy your journey

[LaurieM]

Yes! My ds 13 does terrible during transitions. He's done w/ something, then comes upstairs to get a book, check his agenda, get a snack, etc -- yada, yada, yada - Its 10 min later and he's not back to work!

 

The bane of my existence is keeping him on task during the day when transitioning from one subject to another.

 

Calgon!

 

If it's any consolation, my ds (now 18) can finally stay on task throughout his day! I was beginning to wonder if possibly I was raising an absent-minded professor!

[Storm Bay]

Ah, if he hits 4 hours a day, I'd be surprised. But he dillydallies--you know, he works for 10 minutes and has to stop to pet the cat. He works for 5 minutes and has to stop to see what is sister is reading. You get the picture?

 

 

Now you're talking an area I understand, as I have some huge lollygaggers around here. I find having them in separate areas helps, even if it's in adjoining rooms. Keep the cat out, if you can, etc. The fewer distractions the better. Find focusing techniques that work (mine concentrate better when humming or talking to themselves, and somewhere along the line they'll have to stop that).

 

I have also overwhelmed my dd this year in her 8/9 "interim" year, making up for some letting go in years before because I had to choose my battles, and at the time it was the right decision. I've had to reduce history (for one example, she was finishing world history and squeezing American History in at the same time and she hates history to begin with.)

[SheWhoWaits]

It really opened up a nice conversation. He agreed with several points you guys made.

 

 

He asked if it would be a disaster if he never read the read Iliad. WHAT SAY YOU??

 

Glad this is working out for you.

Would it be a disaster if he never read the Iliad? That depends. If he is going to be a classics major in college, yes (but he would read it then, so doesn't have to read it now.) Otherwise, no. I can't imagine a situation where it would be imperative for him to know the Iliad that well, especially since he is reading a retold version and so will know the story line anyway. One of the goals of classical education is to know our western heritage, which is why we read books like the Iliad, which was one of the scriptures of the ancient world. But as I just said, I think knowing the story line is sufficient for most purposes.

[ma23peas]

 

• chores (clean main bathroom, vacuum living room, basic grooming, general bedroom straightening)
  
• devotions/prayers
  
• two sections of Elementary Greek I (I told you I was being transparent about how behind we are in school)
  
• algebra I with VT algebra (he's in Unit C)
  
• one section of Vocabulary from Classical Roots A
  
• two sections of Vocabulary for Enjoyment
  
• one or two lines from the Italic Handwriting book
  
• one part of a Building Spelling Skills book
  
• four pages of reading in Apologia Biology, associated vocabulary, and one experiment
  
• write one paragraph about something you read today
  
• outline one paragraph you read today
  

 

 

We are using TOG Year 1 for our spine. Here's what was one today's list:

 

 

 

• Identify a dozen places on a map by consulting an historical atlas
  
• Read one page of Spielvogel's Western Civilization
  
• Watch Lecture 1 of "Ancient Civilizations" from the Teaching Company
  
• Read chapters 1-2 of "Story of the Greeks" by Grueber
  
• Read 10 pages of "Mythology" by Edith Hamilton
  
• Read 7 pages of "These were the Greeks"
  
• Read chapter 11 of "Knowing God"
  
• Listen to Lecture 1 of "Masterpieces of Greek Literature" from TTC
  
• Read books 1 and 6 of the Iliad
  
• Read 15 pages of "Black Ships before Troy"
  
• Read one page of "Story of Painting"
  

 

 

Bet you've tweaked a bunch and received some great suggestions! I'll offer mine since I'm late reading your post. Honestly, I would be overwhelmed and uninspired by the list of to do's...wow...just look at the commands "Watch, Read, Listen, Identify"..what I'm fully missing here is the "Discuss, share, participate"....To be honest, I think that is the school's biggest failure with education..they can assign lots of 'work' but do they digest it? It really is no fun to read as much as you have him reading if there is no one to discuss and share it with. My son is almost 14 and my other two are near 11 and 10....we do many of our subjects together so that the three of us can have discussions....it means my youngest has already had her fill of Chemistry, Physics, Logic, Reasoning, Histories several times over, and has had to do more earlier than any of my children..I don't require as much from her but she grasps quite a bit.

 

They each have their own math, but I still am the primary teacher..there is not one subject other than Rosetta German that I do not have the primary teaching role in...even with German we hold a weekly class with another family doing it and have fun quizzes and conversation times. I assign a reading list that is based off our historical/science/good literature appropriate for their age..we then sit together and start our book reports together...I have sheets that ask more probing questions for my son's books and more general questions on plot/characters for my younger ones.

 

We, too, had many excuses why the past year was not as diligently spent with our studies...now that we're back in the groove, my kids missed nothing, they skipped 130 lessons in math and are none the worse for it...they skipped a year of grammar and they're doing well. What they did do is read a slew of books during our time in academia absentia....and wrote freely in their journals or creating stories on their own...but I firmly feel that the BEST part of schooling is the time when you get to share ideas and create...the more senses you use on any subject the more they retain...just reading and reading and checking off the boxes is dull and becomes very tedious. We've done Latin for 6 years now and added in German this year, it's not hard..it's actually doable...but Latin has been spent exploring it with families all along, never just one child doing certain exercises on their own...it's a collaborative effort and they retain so much more that way.

 

Don't make him read the Iliad, you read it together as a family, act it out...use the map to chart the locations in it...share why this classic has stood the test of time..how imagining this same story told for a very long time still captures the reader...relate it to movies your family has watched..many of the plot lines in Iliad mirror so many plots even in contemporary media..sitcoms/comic strips....I think the more everyone picks 2-3 subjects that you can do together and benefit from the unique perspective each of you bring, they will delight in school more so than giving them a list of to do's that they alone need to check off....the only subjects my kids do on their own without group interaction would be their piano practice, Rosetta lesson online, reading their book and handwriting...we also cut out the dilly dallying, if I'm busy helping another child with a subject they have a list of 10 things they can be doing if they've already finished their work

1. Read your book

2. Write a letter (they're required to write 2 letters a week to anyone..daughter just got a signed autograph from Shaun Johnson the olympic athlete today!)

3. Write in your journal

4. Draw

5. Logic puzzles

6. Typing games

7. geo challenge (various online geography games)

8. walk the dogs

9. brain teasers

10. Wii Fit :)

 

We start school about 8:30 and finish most days by 12 or 1:30...getting all our chores done between 7:30 and 8:30...

and we have a lot of chores! :)

 

Don't be afraid to do some of his subjects with him....

 

Tara

[Beth in SW WA]

 

My ds is in 10th grade. He worked at least 8 hours per day (40+) per week last year when he was in 9th grade. :001_smile:

 

 

Hi Janice,

Did that include reading for all subs?

 

Thanks!

[ChemMommy]

Hey Pam,

 

So, you're Catholic? When my mom gets stuck on Latin,(she's doing Henle, after finishing LCi and II), she calls our local Abbey. She asked this last time, if lay people are allowed to take Latin there. Taking Latin will really make his brain work, too. My kids kinda fuss about it, but they do it.... My 10 year old jokes that she's gonna marry someone who took Latin while homeschooled and speak it to her children as their mother tongue. It could be the homeschool "secret language." Anyway, Priests and such seem to find true joy when they hear that homeschoolers/private schoolers are taking Latin and other Ancient Languages. Maybe you can find a kindred Priest, too. It's great that you have vicars to talk with your son, these are men in training? It might also be kinda fun to hear someone fluently read Greek, for your son....

Let us know of your progress, as your son adjusts to this new workload.

Carrie:-)

 

 

Lutheran, not Catholic (but catholic LOL).

 

All of the kids are learning Greek this year. The younger 3 are using Hey, Andrew. It's been a blast for the whole family. Now, they leave me messages on the computer written in Greek. They love to stump me!

 

Love the Latin-as-a-homeschoolers-mother-tongue!!

[ChemMommy]

Anyway, I also wanted to apologize for not giving you a pat on the back for the good work you have done (I am having trouble wording this how I want it to sound so I hope my meaning is coming across well). I got caught up in responding to your questions and only focused on my thoughts in regards to them. It can be hard when we ask questions like that and get feedback that we may need or want to hear, but can sometimes contribute to a feeling of not measuring up.

 

 

I was looking for true feedback; I needed to hear the truth. I really didn't need what I "wanted" to hear.:001_smile:

[ChemMommy]

Here's what I also wonder: How many of us would hit the books at our age the way we demand our children do?

 

I can't say I would always do what I demand of the kids. But they don't know that.

 

Pam

 

 

Oh, I'm absolutely sure that I never worked as much in 9th grade as I'm expected my son to work. HOWEVER, even in 9th grade, I was aware that I was working far less than I could and was heartily bored.

 

I'm just lucky, and I recognize that I'm lucky, because my kids are completely unaware that they peers don't spontaneously start their schoolwork and finish it without prodding. They are unaware (thankfully) of how much twaddle their peers end up enduring in a day.

 

And, my younger ones are totally clueless that 2nd graders don't learn Greek! LOL I'm praying they never find out!!!

[ChemMommy]

Chiming in a bit late here -

 

But have you seen the sample schedules for Year 1 on the TOG site?

 

Many high school programs cover The Odyssey. I have seen only a few that tackle The Iliad. So no, it won't be the end of the world if you read Black Ships for the story line, discuss some of the themes, and move on. Don't let it make or break your plans/goals/life.

 

If you feel that you haven't given language arts the attention that it needs, then change that.

 

My ds is in 10th grade. He worked at least 8 hours per day (40+) per week last year when he was in 9th grade. :001_smile:

 

 

He totaled up his workload today and it came to 4.5 hours. He's been a bit quieter about his workload after seeing that other moms require a lot from their kids.

 

I have seen the TOG schedules. Basically, I took what they recommended reading in a week, and divided it over 5-6 days. But, we are doing History, History In-Depth, and about half of the supplemental TOG stuff. And yes, we've had to dip into Dialectic reading in places (like this week's Black Ships before Troy) because he lacks the necessary background IMHO to understand the Iliad on his own.

 

He agreed to keep up the Iliad for the week and we would reassess on Sunday. He freely admits that he is getting much more out of the Iliad because he has read "Black Ships". Thanks SWB!! Tonight, he said he'd rather drop the easier "Black Ships" and keep the Iliad but he would get less out of it. (Please keep in mind that LAST night, we was all for dropping the Iliad and keeping "Black Ships"). We've had a nice opportunity this week to discuss how we should never panic and drop the hard thing just because it is hard.

 

Yes, we need to start writing immediately. I just have no idea of what we should do:IEW, CW?? I'll post more about the options/questions soon and in a different thread. What are you using?

 

Thanks for your comments

[ChemMommy]

If it's any consolation, my ds (now 18) can finally stay on task throughout his day! I was beginning to wonder if possibly I was raising an absent-minded professor!

 

And his son isn't THAT different. My dh will finally come home from campus when he gets hungry. Until then, he'll just be in the zone and clueless about the time. Yesterday, he forgot to go teach his own class.:lol:

[ChemMommy]

Bet you've tweaked a bunch and received some great suggestions! I'll offer mine since I'm late reading your post. Honestly, I would be overwhelmed and uninspired by the list of to do's...wow...just look at the commands "Watch, Read, Listen, Identify"..what I'm fully missing here is the "Discuss, share, participate"....To be honest, I think that is the school's biggest failure with education..they can assign lots of 'work' but do they digest it? It really is no fun to read as much as you have him reading if there is no one to discuss and share it with.

 

 

I may just cross-stitch that advice in bold letters and hang it in my kitchen! Thanks!

[Gwen in VA]

My dh will finally come home from campus when he gets hungry. Until then, he'll just be in the zone and clueless about the time. Yesterday, he forgot to go teach his own class.

 

Thanks for posting that! My older son is like that - -and I cried at the idea that somewhere there might be a place for him. So my ds1 isn't the only one to do things like that?

 

(At his college rush is this week. His college has the second-to-highest Greek participation rate of any college in the country. He is the only freshman guy he knows who isn't rushing -- he is spending the week reading the Iliad and pondering the economy. And he is happy!!!!!)

[Starr]

This could be where we are headed. :) My ds likes to "think thoughts".

[Beth in SW WA]

Hey Pam,

My 10 year old jokes that she's gonna marry someone who took Latin while homeschooled and speak it to her children as their mother tongue. It could be the homeschool "secret language."

 

So cute!!