What do you think about this situation?

[Harriet Vane]

I'm really surprised by the concrete responses to this. At first, I thought they were just reactionary, knee-jerk answers, but it seems they were thought out. Really, you would kick someone out of church over something this benign and stupid? You would demand action and hearings with elders and everything else? Isn't that overreacting just a wee bit? It was not porn. He did not show his "thingy". It was a stupid practical joke, played on a friend, by someone that does not seem to have a lot of experience with the words "not funny". WWJD? I would imagine, roll his eyes, shake his head and move on.

 

But then, I guess I should not be so surprised. It seems like there are a few cautious answers, a few even-minded answers, in every forum, and then an eruption of "I'm right" "Your wrong" "You are sending this country/system/etc to hell in a hand-basket" "I'm good" "You are bad" etc.

 

I'm going to continue to assume that most people are more even tempered and understanding in "real life" and that this is just another example of allowing your deeper held thoughts free reign because this is cyber space. Honestly, I'm really disappointed at what I've found in the homeschooling world. I expected more open-mindedness, less knee-jerk reactions, more thought, more understanding, less hate. But it turns out that homeschooling is just like high school, only the teachers are also the cheerleaders, the cliques are made up of people with better vocabularies. Woohoo.

 

No one on this thread advocated kicking this person out of church.

 

I did advocate a permanent ban on children's ministry for this person. In both of the churches in which I have directed these programs, any ban on service, whether temporary or permanent, has to come to the attention of the leadership. In almost all cases it is handled very quietly. There are a myriad of reasons why someone might not be allowed to help in children's ministry--from maturity issues to a need for spiritual growth to lifestyle choices. A healthy church screens their childcare workers carefully, and where someone is found unable to help a healthy church will work proactively with that person to find a better fit in service and/or to help the person grow in the ways that they need to before they can be a leader over vulnerable, impressionable children.

 

The only times I have ever seen a situation escalate publicly I have felt the escalation was entirely appropriate. Each of the cases I personally observed had to do with blatant s@xual misconduct (such as the case of a 17yo boy who took blatant advantage of a 12yo girl s@xually), and in each of those cases the person was totally unrepentant. In the case I mentioned it was also appropriate that the church cooperated with the authorities outside the church.

 

I did post saying OP's acquaintance should not be welcome in children's ministry service anymore. I stand by my words. As many other posters have pointed out, the incident was at the least crude and immature and showed a lack of judgment, especially when considering the man is 31 years old. The reason I go one step further, as a children's ministry director, is that we have to be extra careful, extra protective, of our children. Just one inappropriate incident truly can (and does!) scar a child for life. Also, children do not have the capacity to distinguish all the shades of inappropriate--it is our responsibility as adults to protect them while they are young and to guide them to both trust their instincts and to behave responsibly towards others as they grow older.

 

It is irresponsible to make guesses as to whether this is a stupid "guy" stunt or whether it is something worse. I will readily admit that it could be just a stupid stunt, but I am absolutely NOT willing to risk any children on that possibility.

 

The standard for having authority over children in church absolutely MUST be very, very high because children are so very, very vulnerable.

[Blessedfamily]

oh. okay. the general tone of your post didn't come across as sarcastic, so I took it as a general (not neccessarily directed at me personally) genuine comment.

 

my mistake.:)

 

 

 

Oh and I agree! Like I wrote, I don't know if it had sexual issues or not and I don't have Jesus' advantage of knowing his mind/heart.

 

But when it comes to our kids, doubt can be extended from a distance or with caution. I can only judge by his actions that at the least he is far too immature and impulsive to be in charge of a youth group. That doesn't neccessarily mean he's a terrible person, just not a person properly suited for that particuliar job.:)

 

I agree with you. And, I took the post as a general statement and was typing up a response when I read the clarification.

 

I would say that I don't think I would call my orginial response knee jerk. I simply wouldn't want a crude person for a church role model.

 

I think "knee-jerk" is a relative term.

 

As for the WWJD I cannot know.....

 

If I found people sitting at a table conducting inappropriate or dishonest business on church grounds, I would expect my pastor or someone to ask them to leave or call the authorities.

 

If, instead, he got very angry and just overturned their tables, took a whip and ran them off, throwing their money behind them,that might seem like a knee-jerk reaction to me. KWIM?

[Murphy101]

I agree with you. And, I took the post as a general statement and was typing up a response when I read the clarification.

 

I would say that I don't think I would call my orginial response knee jerk.

 

I think "knee-jerk" is a relative term.

As for the WWJD I cannot know.....

 

If I found people sitting at a table conducting inappropriate or dishonest business on church grounds, I would expect my pastor or someone to ask them to leave or call the authorities.

 

If, instead, he got very angry and just overturned their tables, took a whip and ran them off, throwing their money behind them,that might seem like a knee-jerk reaction to me. KWIM?

 

 

Yes, I do know just what you mean.;)

[lionfamily1999]

Knee-jerk, meaning, I found this on a camcorder, I am going to throw the book at this guy. On further reflection, it was a stupid thing to do, I am going to say it was a stupid thing to do, but maybe smacking him upside the head with a book is a little harsh.

 

It takes all kinds. I went to youth group with leaders that were polar opposites. One thought food fights were harmless good fun, as long as you cleaned up afterwards, the other thought we should be upright, pious, etc. every moment of every day. I learned things from both people. I learned it is okay to be childish and silly sometimes. I learned the need to be upright at others. I was also lucky enough to have half-way figured out how to distinguish between the two times. If everything is a learning experience, then what could be learned/taught from this experience. THINK before you act. Consider the possible effects of your actions, before you take action. This was a stupid thing to do, make it a learning experience, and there should be a great deal of reflection (why did God place this person in a position of authority over youth?) before taking action.

 

I am all for protecting my kids. That is why my son is coming out of school, that is why I very seldom leave them in the care of non-relations. I do not want to teach my children to judge someone, period. I want them to learn to distance themselves from people they percieve to be dangerous (either to spiritual or physical well-being), without condemning the other person. If, when, my kids are uncomfortable with someone, they move away from that person. They continue to be polite, understanding, kind, but they distance themselves all the same. It is not our place to judge someone. While we can say, I would not allow that person to lead you, and this is why. I don't believe we should condemn them.

 

That is why I am removing my son from school, vs. demanding change in the system. It works for some people, just not for him. This guy's behavior is immature and what he did was dumb, but I'm sure there is some redeeming quality that is being overlooked, some gift that he has to give that would be lost. Maybe he adds the element of "fun" and silliness that the youth group needs to survive, and maybe he needs to learn, from the youth group, how to behave otherwise.

 

If the pastor decided to keep him, with warning, then there must be a reason. Maybe there is a baby in that bath water after all.

[Peek a Boo]

As for the WWJD I cannot know.....

 

If I found people sitting at a table conducting inappropriate or dishonest business on church grounds, I would expect my pastor or someone to ask them to leave or call the authorities.

 

If, instead, he got very angry and just overturned their tables, took a whip and ran them off, throwing their money behind them,that might seem like a knee-jerk reaction to me. KWIM?

 

yeah... and we don't know how many warnings they might have received- or how many authorities had been consulted and refused to act- before being driven out ;)

 

Really, you would kick someone out of church over something this benign and stupid? nope. not even over something worse unless they were extremely violent.

 

 

You would demand action and hearings with elders and everything else? after a pattern of bad decisions? yup. That's scriptural for people in teaching positions.

 

Isn't that overreacting just a wee bit?

discussing someone's actions w/ those in authority is overreacting?

 

It was not porn. He did not show his "thingy".

foolish decisions are not limited to porn.

 

It was a stupid practical joke, played on a friend, by someone that does not seem to have a lot of experience with the words "not funny".

no --it was Yet Another in a series of bad decisions shown by this person.

 

WWJD? I would imagine, roll his eyes, shake his head and move on.

I don't see many instances of Jesus rolling his eyes, shaking his head, or moving on w/o at least discussing what had happened.

Even w/ the adulterous woman, He still told her to Do No More.

maybe we should each compose a parable for this instance :D

[Peek a Boo]

Knee-jerk, meaning, I found this on a camcorder, I am going to throw the book at this guy. On further reflection, it was a stupid thing to do, I am going to say it was a stupid thing to do, but maybe smacking him upside the head with a book is a little harsh.

 

so having to approach this guy Yet Again would eliminate the instance from being a knee jerk reaction? ;)

 

It takes all kinds. I went to youth group with leaders that were polar opposites. One thought food fights were harmless good fun, as long as you cleaned up afterwards, the other thought we should be upright, pious, etc. every moment of every day. I learned things from both people. I learned it is okay to be childish and silly sometimes. I learned the need to be upright at others. I was also lucky enough to have half-way figured out how to distinguish between the two times.

 

it IS ok to be childish and silly sometimes. That's different from being utterly foolish. We are supposed to be teaching children where those lines are, not emulating how to cross them.

 

 

If everything is a learning experience, then what could be learned/taught from this experience. THINK before you act. Consider the possible effects of your actions, before you take action. This was a stupid thing to do, make it a learning experience, and there should be a great deal of reflection (why did God place this person in a position of authority over youth?) before taking action.

 

trying to figure out why God does something is almost a losing battle w/o clear scripture. BUt God does place people over us to consult about stuff just like this.

 

 

I am all for protecting my kids. That is why my son is coming out of school, that is why I very seldom leave them in the care of non-relations. I do not want to teach my children to judge someone, period. I want them to learn to distance themselves from people they percieve to be dangerous (either to spiritual or physical well-being), without condemning the other person. If, when, my kids are uncomfortable with someone, they move away from that person. They continue to be polite, understanding, kind, but they distance themselves all the same. It is not our place to judge someone. While we can say, I would not allow that person to lead you, and this is why. I don't believe we should condemn them.

 

distancing yourself from someone IS a judgment. I think what might get confusing is judging and condemning a PERSON vs judging and condemning an ACTION [or series of sctions]. The former isn't cool, the second is vital. Most of the responses I've seen ARE calling for a distancing of this person.

 

This guy's behavior is immature and what he did was dumb, but I'm sure there is some redeeming quality that is being overlooked, some gift that he has to give that would be lost. Maybe he adds the element of "fun" and silliness that the youth group needs to survive, and maybe he needs to learn, from the youth group, how to behave otherwise.

sorry, but I don't put my kids in youth groups BECAUSE of guys like THIS. It seems to me that the church would be well-served by removing him from a situation that has brought disgrace- not only to himself but to others also- and moving him to one where he can operate under more mature counsel. As you said, babies need a proper bath water, and one w/ other children in looks like it might be wrong for him.

[Murphy101]

It takes all kinds. I went to youth group with leaders that were polar opposites. One thought food fights were harmless good fun, as long as you cleaned up afterwards, the other thought we should be upright, pious, etc. every moment of every day. I learned things from both people. I learned it is okay to be childish and silly sometimes. I learned the need to be upright at others. I was also lucky enough to have half-way figured out how to distinguish between the two times. If everything is a learning experience, then what could be learned/taught from this experience. THINK before you act. Consider the possible effects of your actions, before you take action. This was a stupid thing to do, make it a learning experience, and there should be a great deal of reflection (why did God place this person in a position of authority over youth?) before taking action.

 

Not one person here is saying anyone, including a youth group leader, has to be serious with a poker up their bum attitude 24/7. There is nothing wrong with a good laugh and some silliness in the right occassion.

 

 

Video taping a private bathroom moment is not in line with that.

 

I also wouldn't say this guy was neccessarily given this position in the youth by God.

 

Of course, there's a lesson to be learned. And I hope the fellow learns it.

However it is the purpose of a youth group leader to teach by example to youth. One would reasonably require that such a position be held by someone who already has enough common sense to have learned such things. Thus again, it appears he is not an appropriate person to teach/lead a youth group!

 

I am all for protecting my kids. That is why my son is coming out of school, that is why I very seldom leave them in the care of non-relations. I do not want to teach my children to judge someone, period.

 

That's your choice. I disagree with it. Judge them as in "you are going to hell!"? Of course not. That's God's job alone and I'm happy to leave Him to it! But to judge actions? To judge what is appropriate? To judge what is or is not appropriate for a job? To judge what is or is not appropriate behavior? To judge what kind of person should lead others, esp our young impressionable children? Of course I expect my children to judge such things! In fact, I think I would be doing them a terrible disservice if I did not give them those skills of discernment.

 

It is not our place to judge someone. While we can say, I would not allow that person to lead you, and this is why. I don't believe we should condemn them.

 

and that is exactly what most here have said about this person. Can't judge as to how bad his intentions were, but can judge that he is NOT an appropriate person to lead youth.

 

This guy's behavior is immature and what he did was dumb, but I'm sure there is some redeeming quality that is being overlooked, some gift that he has to give that would be lost.

 

again, no one has said otherwise.:confused:

Saying that he is not appropriate for youth positions is not the same as saying he's a horrible person who should be shunned by the church.

[BamaTanya]

says S doesn't need to be working around children because of his immaturity and lack of judgment. Just our 2c.

[lionfamily1999]

I am all for protecting my kids. That is why my son is coming out of school, that is why I very seldom leave them in the care of non-relations. I do not want to teach my children to judge someone, period. That's your choice. I disagree with it. Judge them as in "you are going to hell!"? Of course not. That's God's job alone and I'm happy to leave Him to it! But to judge actions? To judge what is appropriate? To judge what is or is not appropriate for a job? To judge what is or is not appropriate behavior? To judge what kind of person should lead others, esp our young impressionable children? Of course I expect my children to judge such things! In fact, I think I would be doing them a terrible disservice if I did not give them those skills of discernment.

 

Sorry for the bad cut and paste job...

 

My children know what is appropriate, what is considered "right" for us. I want them to know that people are different, everyone has different rationals for what they say, do, think and believe. I do not want them to cast someone down or aside because they disagree with their actions, thoughts etc., but to understand that that is simply their perspective. God said what was right and wrong with the ten commandments and through the teachings of Christ. Okay, we know those are right and wrong, however, it is not for my children to judge the actions of another (unless they have jury duty and then it is specifically whether or not the actions broke the laws of the land). I want them to know, and so far they have a good grasp of this, that some activities are not okay for us, but that we should not judge/condemn/etc, the people that choose those things. My son, probably, never tape himself peeing, because he knows that urinating is a private activity to be enjoyed only by the pee-er, not to include fellow pee-ees. I say probably, because curiosity can make kids do some wierd things, and you never know.

 

For all I know that guy is part of some pee on tape movement to bring the concerns of prostate cancer to the forefront. Maybe he was making a statement, have you checked your stream lately? Or he could have just been a big goon trying to play a not-very-well-thought-out-joke on his friend. Yes, he should have considered the possibilities, yes it was gross. I'm not sure that seeing pee would scar a child for life... my sons have both gone through phases were pee was the most interesting thing in the world, my daughter, not so much. Maybe he did consider the possibility and reached the conclusion that it was harmless. The endless questions lead me to believe that judgement should be laden with assumptions for the good intentions (funny intentions, whatever?) of his action.

 

Also, the pastor seems to have felt that this was worth some speaking to and moving on. Perhaps, the kids in youth group adore this guy because he is immature, like them, making him an ally. If his immaturity makes it easier for the kids to relate to him, then maybe he is where he is supposed to be?

[Blessedfamily]

Perhaps, the kids in youth group adore this guy because he is immature, like them, making him an ally. If his immaturity makes it easier for the kids to relate to him, then maybe he is where he is supposed to be?

 

My siblings and I had a sitter we adored. She seemed responsible to mother, but turned out to be as immature as us.

 

She played with more dolls than we did. Not a bad thing, but she also joined us as we recked the house, ate candy all evening, got into my mother's make-up..

 

She was a sweet, sweet teen but not right for the job. (Mother tried to work with her.)

 

In church, you need to do more than relate. You need to set an example of good character. This person has already had previous incidents of poor judgement. He needs to grow up before leading.

[Murphy101]

My children know what is appropriate, what is considered "right" for us. I want them to know that people are different, everyone has different rationals for what they say, do, think and believe. I do not want them to cast someone down or aside because they disagree with their actions, thoughts etc., but to understand that that is simply their perspective.

 

For all I know that guy is part of some pee on tape movement to bring the concerns of prostate cancer to the forefront. Maybe he was making a statement, have you checked your stream lately? Or he could have just been a big goon trying to play a not-very-well-thought-out-joke on his friend. Yes, he should have considered the possibilities, yes it was gross. I'm not sure that seeing pee would scar a child for life... my sons have both gone through phases were pee was the most interesting thing in the world, my daughter, not so much. Maybe he did consider the possibility and reached the conclusion that it was harmless. The endless questions lead me to believe that judgement should be laden with assumptions for the good intentions (funny intentions, whatever?) of his action.

 

well I disagree. not much more to say on that.

I couldn't care less what his reason for doing something so stupid were.

It shows a lack of maturity and reason and there's really no excuse for it.

And it's not the first or third time he's shown such lack in judgement.

I do not want someone who lacks maturity and reason on that level to be in charge of guiding my children spiritually.

 

Also, the pastor seems to have felt that this was worth some speaking to and moving on.

 

hmm, the pastor may not be making a wise decision in this case then.

I'd pull my kids out of the youth group.

 

Perhaps, the kids in youth group adore this guy because he is immature, like them, making him an ally. If his immaturity makes it easier for the kids to relate to him, then maybe he is where he is supposed to be?

 

Absolutely not!

I've got nothing against developing a friendly relationship, but adults are adults and children are children. It is not the job of youth leader to be their ally or to degenerate to the mentality of an immature teen supposedly to "relate" to them better.

Relating to an immature man and becoming an ally with someone who is foolish does not develop maturity and responsiblity in teens, esp when that person is supposed to be someone they can count on and look to for guidance!

 

We will just have to respectfully disagree.:)

[Peek a Boo]

I'm pretty much w/ martha on this one.

 

I do not want to teach my children to judge someone, period. That's your choice. I disagree with it. Judge them as in "you are going to hell!"? Of course not. That's God's job alone and I'm happy to leave Him to it! But to judge actions? To judge what is appropriate? To judge what is or is not appropriate for a job? To judge what is or is not appropriate behavior? To judge what kind of person should lead others, esp our young impressionable children? Of course I expect my children to judge such things! In fact, I think I would be doing them a terrible disservice if I did not give them those skills of discernment.

and that's exactly what people are doing in this thread: judging actions and what is and is not appropriate for the job of teaching youth.

 

 

 

God said what was right and wrong with the ten commandments and through the teachings of Christ. Okay, we know those are right and wrong, however, it is not for my children to judge the actions of another (unless they have jury duty and then it is specifically whether or not the actions broke the laws of the land). I want them to know, and so far they have a good grasp of this, that some activities are not okay for us, but that we should not judge/condemn/etc, the people that choose those things.

 

except that there's more to scripture than the 10 commandments, and discounting the advice given by paul in the NT --about how to deal w/ fellow believers in the church and to surround yourself w/ a multitude of counselors for accoutability-- would be an unwise move, period.

 

 

 

For all I know that guy is part of some pee on tape movement to bring the concerns of prostate cancer to the forefront. Maybe he was making a statement, have you checked your stream lately? Or he could have just been a big goon trying to play a not-very-well-thought-out-joke on his friend. Yes, he should have considered the possibilities, yes it was gross. I'm not sure that seeing pee would scar a child for life... my sons have both gone through phases were pee was the most interesting thing in the world, my daughter, not so much. Maybe he did consider the possibility and reached the conclusion that it was harmless. The endless questions lead me to believe that judgement should be laden with assumptions for the good intentions (funny intentions, whatever?) of his action.

 

...and the seemingless endless pattern of making Poor, Bad Decisions Regarding Himself and the Youth lead me to believe he needs to be utilizing his gifts elsewhere. walking in on adults having sex won't necessarily scar a child for life either, but it is still something that mature adults take measures to prevent.

 

 

Also, the pastor seems to have felt that this was worth some speaking to and moving on. Perhaps, the kids in youth group adore this guy because he is immature, like them, making him an ally. If his immaturity makes it easier for the kids to relate to him, then maybe he is where he is supposed to be?

pastors are fallible --thus the call for Deacons/elders and why it is so important to bring them in.

and again: absolutely NOT should someone w/ poor decision making abilities be leading youth. Find someone else that can relate well w/ kids AND still has good decision making abilities. They are out there ;)

[Jean in Newcastle]

Dh (a pastor) says this man should not be in a position of leadership of any kind in the church.

 

He is being led more by his sinful nature than by the Holy Spirit. He is socially immature and this also comes out in spiritual immaturity.

[Remudamom]

Mercy, I thought you were talking about a child. I wouldn't let him near my kids.

[lionfamily1999]

We will just have to respectfully disagree.:)

Sure thing.:iagree: