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what's helped with your oppositional defiant child?


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My 7 yo is giving me fits again. He is starting to resist every single thing I try to get him to do all day long again. He blatantly lies, ignores me more often than not and claims he didn't hear me (his hearing is fine), whine-argues constantly, and generally refuses to do whatever he doesn't want to do. He is more passive aggressive than the ODD descriptions in the various books I've read, but the constant opposition and defiance is exhausting even if not accompanied by screaming fits. I'm looking for suggestions on little things I can try to make getting through each day easier. He started doing his dyslexia remediation with an online tutor and that has helped some, and I'm scrapping math for the rest of the year in favor of a math games app because that's a huge battle. He does much better if it's something he can do completely independently, without my involvement. For example, my older kids all have morning chores that have to be done before breakfast. Each kid has theirs on a separate piece of paper that has to be checked off by them and turned in to me, and I start music in the AM to let them know they need to get moving. After his breakfast was delayed once while he finished his chores he's done them without a fuss every morning--but if I were to remind him to do them as opposed to just letting this system run as it's set up, he'd very likely whine, balk, or flat-out refuse to do them, or refuse to eat after finally doing them. He doesn't act this way for other people so I know he's perfectly capable of behaving and cooperating. I'd like to find ways to reduce the conflict for the next couple of months so I can finish school with his siblings and hopefully have more time to find better ways to deal with him after that.

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Well-- since no one else has answered--

 

My ODD kid started to turn around when she got complete evals, an autism diagnosis, and ABA.

 

My problem with ODD as a diagnosis is that it's basically a list of symptoms. It doesn't really provide an explanation. I always wonder if there's been a complete evaluation that starts to get at *why* a child is acting this way.

 

Sorry, I know that's not very helpful. But-- has he had evaluations? Do you know specific areas of weakness for him?

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And, if he behaves for others, that may just mean that when he tries *as hard as he possibly can*, because he's on his best behavior, he can manage to keep it together. But no one can sustain that degree of effort forever, so at home he relaxes. He trusts you most, so you see him at his worst. At least that's how it sometimes works.

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Some of your structures, like your breakfast routine and visual/written lists for the day, sound very good! 

 

When you say you want to reduce conflict, do you more mean reduce demands? To increase compliance, ironically you need to increase demands and increase support/follow through.

 

We've suggested evals many times on the board. Was the gig that your dh is opposed? 

 

You could ship him off to school. If you don't actually hit this over the head and figure it out and nail it, you're gonna be in a WORSE position that has festered come July. None of this is stuff that just poof resolves in a month. So it will fester and you'll have a new baby. 

Edited by PeterPan
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As far as things to do in a pinch that can help NOW?

 

-Calm Child tincture

-calcium and magnesium supplement daily

-genetic testing to see if he has issues with Vitamin D, methylation, etc. My ds turned out to have a defective vitamin D receptor gene, and taking vitamin D helps stabilize his behavior.

-increasing supports

-one hour of intense Mom time daily (sorry, I didn't say my list was practical)

-bringing in an adult to go through his plan for the day with him

-sending him out to an adult for 1-3 hours a day, a few days a week, to let them do outings, compliance work, pairing, etc. You might be AMAZED what this can do. I have a blessed SIL who does this for me. They grocery shop, run errands, do yard work, etc.

-compliance drills--Google to get videos on this. Basically you spend 20-40 minutes giving commands and him doing them, boom, boom, boom. It resets his internal meter on what his roll is in the world.

 

Edited by PeterPan
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I would be speaking out of my specialty but I have some friends with some pretty stubborn kiddos that would definitely fall under ODD. I can only say what I do for my own kids. I track sleep with a fitbit so I can see if sleep is factoring in. I do everything including let the dog sleep in their room to get more sleep. I also feed them a big breakfast and I also do not feed them high  high carb or sugar stuff because my son can not handle fructose. I think it is worth looking into magnesium and other calming supplements. 

 

I think routine is essential. Clear expectations and clear consequences are essential. Finding times they can just be a kid without being nagged to death is important. Also its important to let them get some buy in and let them dictate some parts of their own environment and goals. If bargains are reached they need to be put in writing so the kid sees what you agree to and stay with the agreement. 

 

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"Oppositional Defiant Disorder. This is an unfortunate misnomer as there is nothing wrong with the counterwill instinct in itself. It is more likely that the child`s attachments are disordered or the social environment of the child is disordered. 

...


"counterwill is most often misperceived as being intentional or 'on purpose' as opposed to instinctive and provoked. Adults are forever misinterpreting counterwill in a child as a manifestation of being strong willed, as challenging authority, as being manipulative, as trying to get one's way, as intentionally pushing the adult's buttons or as simply asking for it. How we perceive a child's behaviour will influence how we react to it. Unfortunately when we misperceive counterwill, we are likely to react in ways that actually exacerbate the dynamic. Furthermore, we are at risk of endangering the relationship that provides the context for working with the child."

https://neufeldinstitute.org/course/making-sense-of-counterwill/


Neufeld institute runs online & in person courses & also sells DVD lectures that can help parents understand how to really build attachment

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"Oppositional Defiant Disorder. This is an unfortunate misnomer as there is nothing wrong with the counterwill instinct in itself. It is more likely that the child`s attachments are disordered or the social environment of the child is disordered. 

 

...

 

"counterwill is most often misperceived as being intentional or 'on purpose' as opposed to instinctive and provoked. Adults are forever misinterpreting counterwill in a child as a manifestation of being strong willed, as challenging authority, as being manipulative, as trying to get one's way, as intentionally pushing the adult's buttons or as simply asking for it. How we perceive a child's behaviour will influence how we react to it. Unfortunately when we misperceive counterwill, we are likely to react in ways that actually exacerbate the dynamic. Furthermore, we are at risk of endangering the relationship that provides the context for working with the child."

 

https://neufeldinstitute.org/course/making-sense-of-counterwill/

 

 

Neufeld institute runs online & in person courses & also sells DVD lectures that can help parents understand how to really build attachment

 

I don't know tons about attachment theory and have mostly only heard reliable things about it from adoption sources.

 

This sounds very close to blaming autism on refrigerator mothers.

 

Maybe someone can explain to me the nuances if I am over-responding to this information.

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I don't know tons about attachment theory and have mostly only heard reliable things about it from adoption sources.

 

This sounds very close to blaming autism on refrigerator mothers.

 

Maybe someone can explain to me the nuances if I am over-responding to this information.

It is a you can't always change someone but you can change how you react to them. Ds8 is not ODD but he has days when he comes close. Usually it is a communication that he can't cope. When I really want to push him away it is the opposite he needs. Have you read the explosive chilc book?

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It is a you can't always change someone but you can change how you react to them. Ds8 is not ODD but he has days when he comes close. Usually it is a communication that he can't cope. When I really want to push him away it is the opposite he needs. Have you read the explosive chilc book?

 

That part makes sense to me. Thanks! 

 

I know that dynamic, and it is difficult to do, but it can help. 

 

Good book.

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attachment 

 

"Oppositional Defiant Disorder. This is an unfortunate misnomer as there is nothing wrong with the counterwill instinct in itself. It is more likely that the child`s attachments are disordered or the social environment of the child is disordered. 

 

...

 

"counterwill is most often misperceived as being intentional or 'on purpose' as opposed to instinctive and provoked. Adults are forever misinterpreting counterwill in a child as a manifestation of being strong willed, as challenging authority, as being manipulative, as trying to get one's way, as intentionally pushing the adult's buttons or as simply asking for it. How we perceive a child's behaviour will influence how we react to it. Unfortunately when we misperceive counterwill, we are likely to react in ways that actually exacerbate the dynamic. Furthermore, we are at risk of endangering the relationship that provides the context for working with the child."

 

https://neufeldinstitute.org/course/making-sense-of-counterwill/

 

 

Neufeld institute runs online & in person courses & also sells DVD lectures that can help parents understand how to really build attachment

 

Bull poop.

 

My dd was born full term, in a warm tub in a birthing center with quiet music surrounded by her family.  She was never separated for me for a minute, worn in a sling pretty much constantly as I ran around after her twin sisters, coslept, breastfed on demand for two years, never left to cry it out, or put in day care, or even sent to school. When she finally stopped co-sleeping with us, she moved in with her sisters. Yeah, she's oppositional (finally even got a diagnosis).  From the minute she started walking and having a will I always said I could theoretically get her to do anything I wanted by telling her to do the opposite, but I didn't want to do that.  But someone please tell me how I could have built attachment better.  :toetap05:

 

She still howls 'abandonment!' in reference to when her sisters finally decided they needed their own room at 13yo.  She also felt abandoned around the same time when they didn't want to play with her anymore as they hit puberty.  She'd follow around and pester them relentlessly (which was a big part of why they wanted their own room).  I am glad I did so much attachment stuff with her, as I think it could be much worse.  I think this is the kind of kid who if for any reason had been given up for adoption would have full-blown RAD, so good thing she's from an intact family.

 

But continual working on building relationship and connection does seem to make things better.  Trying to get her to do anything she doesn't want to do just make her double down.  She really would shoot off both her feet just to not do something she doesn't feel like, or even just because she feels she's being told to do it.  So at this point I pretty much let her make her own disasters.  C's on the transcript because she refused to study?  Reminding her, trying to make a plan, anything, just made her say now she wasn't going to study at all.   :glare:   Putting time in with her, even just watching TV, playing games, things she wants to do with me, makes her happier and easier to be around. 

 

Fortunately she's a 'good' kid in that she has no interest in 'wild' things like partying, so I never have to navigate trying to put limits on that kind of thing, which would be a huge problem if she had those kinds of inclinations.  'Carrots' sometimes work, 'sticks' don't work at all.  If she gets even a hint that some thing or some privilege will be taken away if she doesn't do something or change something, she'll double down on doing whatever thing you were trying to get her to stop.  She can sometime be incentivized by a reward, but it has to be the right thing or it doesn't work, and often there's nothing obvious. And I have slipped up many times giving her the 'carrot' too early.  She'll go back on her word. 

 

But yeah, all the regular advice doesn't work with a kid like this, and in fact can backfire and make things ten times worse.  That book The Explosive Child by Ross Greene has lots of helpful advice, actually.  It's just remembering to use it when they're in the middle of yelling, screaming, and pushing all your buttons.  I don't necessarily disagree, then, with the stuff on 'counterwill' up top.  That line 'Unfortunately when we misperceive counterwill, we are likely to react in ways that actually exacerbate the dynamic.'  is pretty much what I'm saying, and the Ross Greene book is mostly getting you to change your perception so you can change your reaction (and suggesting more helpful ones).   I just don't like the parent blame included in the first line up there. - she came wired this way.

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Matryoshka, I cannot comment on your family but will only point out that attachment theory is not only about physical proximity & baby carrying etc -(it is in fact that other thing you mention - the relationship building), and that it's not a guarantee. Some children have other developmental or biochemical or personality issues which make them a challenge to parent. 

for those who don't know, Neufeld is the author of Hold on to Your Kids (published in some countries as Why Parents Need to Matter More than Peers) & IMO there is a lot of overlap between his books/courses/lectures and The Explosive Child. 

I certainly found both very useful but as always ymmv :) 

 

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Matryoshka, I cannot comment on your family but will only point out that attachment theory is not only about physical proximity & baby carrying etc -(it is in fact that other thing you mention - the relationship building), and that it's not a guarantee. Some children have other developmental or biochemical or personality issues which make them a challenge to parent. 

 

for those who don't know, Neufeld is the author of Hold on to Your Kids (published in some countries as Why Parents Need to Matter More than Peers) & IMO there is a lot of overlap between his books/courses/lectures and The Explosive Child. 

 

I certainly found both very useful but as always ymmv :) 

 

As I pointed out farther down, I'm pretty much completely agreeing with the approach mentioned by Neufeld in his longer quote below.  And I'm even agreeing completely that more attachment is better for these kids.  I'm just not down on the parent-blaming (as someone else said, very much akin to 'autism is caused by cold mothers').  

 

I think the baseline is 'developmental and personality and biochemical' things that make these kids react like this.  Dd has an almost bottomless need.  When she was little, I had long, loving bedtime routines where we read books, I sang songs, we talked and laughed - it took upwards of an hour.  And when it was time to leave, she wouldn't let me.  She'd want me to stay hugging her pretty much for.ever or she'd get mad.  It was never enough, she always had to push for more.  She's lucky I love hugs and cuddles and am not easily touched-out.  Her sisters did not always react so well.

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Ok, could I politely interject that while Hornblower's quote was sorta out of the blue, reality is approaches like RDI (Relationship Development Intervention) are saying the same thing? Also, I came across a jackass gene while I was going through 23andme. I forget which one it was, but it's probably in my notes. Anyways, we're talking about genetics, not parenting, and we're talking about how the person is receiving interaction, taking it in, using it, not just what is being provided.

 

What I find is that when we work with my ds on non-verbals (RDI), he FEELS more connected, calm, and secure. If you want to call that attached, fine, let's call that attached. 

 

So take Matryoshka's situation, with a dc who was attachment parented (like my ds, like many kids on this board) and yet the dc feels distinctly DE-tached. What is to say the issue isn't the kid? Of course it's the kid. The only question is what would help them be more attached. For my ds, non-verbals seem to be really important. 

 

I definitely think there's danger in presumptively diagnosing ODD or in professionally diagnosing it before eliminating other things (ASD, etc.). I also think the whole DSM is cockamamie, putting on labels like that with no scientific digging on what is actually going on. Remember, the DSM is crap, just definitions and people trying to categorize stuff they see. It's not an absolute explain of what's really GOING ON. 

 

But yeah, try working on referencing (waiting for them to look at you for a response) and see what happens. Just that, just that little thing seems to be uber powerful with my ds, making him feel more connected. Who's to say stuff like that isn't at the root of what Hornblower is referencing with attachment and that it has NOTHING TO DO with how you parented.

Edited by PeterPan
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I want to apologize to people on this thread for my post above which now that i look at it again did come out with no intro or segue and while my intent was to provide a different angle of view, I see now that it can be read as "duh, it's your fault" 

Apologies. 

 

, and we're talking about how the person is receiving interaction, taking it in, using it, not just what is being provided. 


And again apologies in advance as I realize some people really get upset when you talk about behaviorism and dog training in the context of parenting but ..

One of the mantras of reward based animal training/applied behaviorism is that the animal being trained (and this can include a person) determines the reward and the punishment. 

A simple example is say you're demonstrating and teaching a dog to walk over an obstacle and the reward you are offering is a piece of broccoli and this dog hates broccoli. A sensitive dog who wants to please might even put it in their mouth to try to please you but it's not only not a reward, it's downright punishing to them.  Otoh, a dog (or a bunny whom you're teaching the same behavior) who loves broccoli and would run through broken glass to get at it, for them this is a great reward and they'd love to continue interacting and offering behaviors for the chance to earn the reward.  Similarly, a spray of water from a hose can be punishment or a huge reward - again the trainee determines that. The trainer has to observe and adapt and get their cues from the trainee .

And it also reminds me of the 5 love languages - which as a whole I'm kind of ambivalent about - but it did resonate for me in that one idea of each person having their own perception of what is satisfying, what is enough, what is good, what is rewarding and if you're constantly missing it, you will have an unhappy unsatisfied person in that relationship. 

so yeah, I think it's not just what we're doing & offering, but how it's being received - & this applies whether we're talking about behaviorism, or in complex relationship building 
 

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And again apologies in advance as I realize some people really get upset when you talk about behaviorism and dog training in the context of parenting but ..

 

One of the mantras of reward based animal training/applied behaviorism is that the animal being trained (and this can include a person) determines the reward and the punishment. 

 

A simple example is say you're demonstrating and teaching a dog to walk over an obstacle and the reward you are offering is a piece of broccoli and this dog hates broccoli. A sensitive dog who wants to please might even put it in their mouth to try to please you but it's not only not a reward, it's downright punishing to them.  Otoh, a dog (or a bunny whom you're teaching the same behavior) who loves broccoli and would run through broken glass to get at it, for them this is a great reward and they'd love to continue interacting and offering behaviors for the chance to earn the reward.  Similarly, a spray of water from a hose can be punishment or a huge reward - again the trainee determines that. The trainer has to observe and adapt and get their cues from the trainee .

 

And it also reminds me of the 5 love languages - which as a whole I'm kind of ambivalent about - but it did resonate for me in that one idea of each person having their own perception of what is satisfying, what is enough, what is good, what is rewarding and if you're constantly missing it, you will have an unhappy unsatisfied person in that relationship. 

 

so yeah, I think it's not just what we're doing & offering, but how it's being received - & this applies whether we're talking about behaviorism, or in complex relationship building 

 

 

I think a lot of the books on difficult children are really saying the same thing, in different (sometimes very different) ways.  One I read recently is called The Nutured Heart Approach, and he talks about how for difficult children a negative reaction by the parent is actually energizing for them--it's essentially a reward.  Whereas a less difficult/more compliant child is going to view a parent's negative reaction more like a punishment (whether there's actually any punishment involved or not).  I think that's a problem with this particular child--he's fine with negative attention, in fact he goes out of his way to get it...and it's a really hard cycle to break (at least for me...it's really hard to want to spend extra time with a child who is constantly acting out and pushing every.last.button).

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I think a lot of the books on difficult children are really saying the same thing, in different (sometimes very different) ways.  One I read recently is called The Nutured Heart Approach, and he talks about how for difficult children a negative reaction by the parent is actually energizing for them--it's essentially a reward.  Whereas a less difficult/more compliant child is going to view a parent's negative reaction more like a punishment (whether there's actually any punishment involved or not).  I think that's a problem with this particular child--he's fine with negative attention, in fact he goes out of his way to get it...and it's a really hard cycle to break (at least for me...it's really hard to want to spend extra time with a child who is constantly acting out and pushing every.last.button).

 

 

yeah, that's really hard. 

 

I totally agree with what you said and yeah, Neufeld says it's when they're the most awful that they need us to come alongside. That's the phrase Neufeld uses- come alongside and I think it's such a good touchstone phrase to contrast with opposition and defiance, kwim?  But when one is fried and tired of it all, it's so hard. I used to say one of my kids didn't just know how to push my buttons, they had me on speed-dial.. 

I wonder if another thing thing that might help is the old  'catch them doing something good' ? Like you could give yourself a challenge every morning to find 10,20,50 things to notice that are going well and remark on them to the child? 

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I think a lot of the books on difficult children are really saying the same thing, in different (sometimes very different) ways.  One I read recently is called The Nutured Heart Approach, and he talks about how for difficult children a negative reaction by the parent is actually energizing for them--it's essentially a reward.  Whereas a less difficult/more compliant child is going to view a parent's negative reaction more like a punishment (whether there's actually any punishment involved or not).  I think that's a problem with this particular child--he's fine with negative attention, in fact he goes out of his way to get it...and it's a really hard cycle to break (at least for me...it's really hard to want to spend extra time with a child who is constantly acting out and pushing every.last.button).

 

ABA would give you tools for that, as it's a pretty common thing to have happen. What you do is set it up such that he gets attention after meeting a demand. It puts you back in control and flips the dynamic back. 

 

Have you read this book yet? 

Stop That Seemingly Senseless Behavior!: FBA-based Interventions for People with Autism (Topics in Autism)  

 

You don't have to make the leap to saying it's autism. I'm just saying that book addresses what you're asking, which is how to identify the function of the behavior and how to turn that dynamic back around.

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Honestly, it's been age and therapy.  Let me see what I can remember....

Clear expectations/consequences spelled out ahead of time.  Honestly, have a list on the fridge.  No debate. 

 

I found this parenting course started by an LDS Mom called "Teaching Self Government."  What I liked about it is that there is a lot of pre-teaching of expectations.  One can include ways to calm down as part of it.  So...Junior.... I need you to take three deep breaths with me now.  Then I want you to go put your shoes neatly next to the front door or whatever.  When you've done that, come back and check with me.   If they're not doing it, the consequence is often an extra chore in our house at first.   So cleaning the baseboards or what not.   If there is bad language (potty mouth), then you either clean the potty or scoop the litter box. :)

 

For us, because he's older, changing the wifi password was the most effective.  Trying to physically take an electronic would not work, and may get one or more people hurt, so this worked.

 

He had a trigger word too, that meant he needed to be alone to calm down.

 

Now at 14, things are finally getting better... but DS1 has been in therapy for two years.... plus sees a psychiatrist.  We've tried different meds, but none really have worked.  CBT has helped more.  

 

It was severe, though...and he was hurting me. The violence has stopped, but part of the reason why is that both the psychiatrist and therapist said I had to call the police.  I had to document.  He also knows that the next time, they don't care what I say, they're taking him in.  The other option is the ER/psychiatric hold.  

 

 

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Hope for the Violently Aggressive Child: New Diagnoses and Treatments that Work  I haven't read this book but saw it mentioned. I've heard of practitioners in our area doing some of the things he mentions.

 

For us, the aggression was connected to methyl levels. We control his methyl levels with niacin and vitamin D, and the aggression melts away. He can still go red zone, be non-compliant, etc., but on the niacin and D he's not scary, not hurting people. That took genetics partly to sort out, because it turned out he had a defective vitamin D receptor gene. I would have thought it was hooey till we saw the genetics.

 

For the niacin we use a 25mg chewable tablet or gummies that have 10mg niacin each.

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  • 2 weeks later...

I have had little luck with my child. And he sucks the life and money from this family. I have other children who need attention but cannot get it. It is pretty bad when I considering full time daycare for my toddler just so I can follow my teen around and beg him to function.

 

i am about to give up.

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For mine, treatment by a GI specialist has been a huge change. For him, it was definitely a series of physical difficulties that effected his ability to function. 

 

Adjusting my reactions and expectations, and acknowledging that his behavior really is out of his control (he can't change his personality or his illness) has made a big difference in our relationship. He's still difficult, but he's more compliant and less devious now.

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