"By the grace of God..." (vent)

[creekmom]

I really think Christians feel a sense of humility when they say, "...but by the grace of God, I (survived, avoided such and such, etc.)."  I know when I believed, it felt like the appropriate thing to say when I narrowly escaped something tragic.  But now that I'm not convinced that God exists, this phrase REALLY bothers me. 

 

A student who would have been sitting in a desk that had bullet holes (Florida high school shooting) happened to leave school early that day.  The students who sit on both sides of her were killed.  When interviewed, she said, "But by the grace of God, I left school early that day."  What about the students who died?  Where was God's grace for them?  How can we claim that God is the reason we survive tragedy and others don't?  Am I the only one who sees this claim as arrogant?  "God actually intervened in this situation to save ME.  I must be special.  God must have a purpose for MY life - the others ...well, not so much?"    How about not claiming a higher power stepped in unless everyone survived?  It's SO incredibly hurtful for people to hear those words whose loved ones didn't "make the cut" for God's grace.  Why don't we just call it the only thing we know it is - luck.

Edited March 17, 2018 by creekmom

[hornblower]

Yup. That has always bothered me so much. 

I have had some explain to me that since going to heaven to be with Jesus is a good thing, the people who died were blessed too, just in a different way & that the survivors are just expressing their gratitude for being granted more days on earth. 

(And if the dead are nonbelievers, well, who cares, they're cast to hell and that's what they deserve.)

Harder for them to explain how the people who live through a disaster but are bankrupted and lose their homes etc are somehow blessed by the events but then you usually get the 'mysterious ways' explanation.

It doesn't make sense to me... 

 

[fraidycat]

I really think Christians feel a sense of humility when they say, "...but by the grace of God, I (survived, avoided such and such, etc.)." I know when I believed, it felt like the appropriate thing to say when I narrowly escaped something tragic. But now that I'm not convinced that God exists, this phrase REALLY bothers me.

 

A student who would have been sitting in a desk that had bullet holes (Florida high school shooting) happened to leave school early that day. The students who sit on both sides of her were killed. When interviewed, she said, "But by the grace of God, I left school early that day." What about the students who died? Where was God's grace for them? How can we claim that God is the reason we survive tragedy and others don't? Am I the only one who sees this claim as arrogant? God must have a purpose for my life - the others ...well, not so much? How about not claiming a higher power stepped in unless everyone survived? It's SO incredibly hurtful for people to hear those words whose loved ones didn't "make the cut" for God's grace. Why don't we just call it the only thing we know it is - luck.

You're not the only one. It's the same type of attitude that had me questioning religion and the "truth of it" at an early age - if you believe and go to church, it's all good. I asked "what about all the Chinese people and people in Africa?" and never got a satisfactory reply.

[fraidycat]

Well if someone believes in God’s providence, recognizing that it is only grace (common or specific) that might preserve a life is the plain truth. In this worldview, luck doesn’t exist.

 

It was God’s specific hand in my life that gave me my son, for example - Benjamin’s life and course was an intentional working of his creator for his ultimate glory - it doesn’t matter that he isn’t perfect or lucky by the world’s standards. If the premise is that the entire course of history is the enactment of God’s specific, predetermined, intentional will with his creation, that saying fits perfectly.

 

Whether you are offended by it or not doesn’t make it less true. That isn’t to say there are not circumstances where expressing it should be tempered with sympathy or gentleness (it doesn’t matter whether God numbered my dead relative’s days, young or old, it’s not an appropriate thing to remind the grieving of until they specifically bring it up). But it’s not arrogant to recognize that it is only by God’s grace we draw breath, especially when confronted with the fact that others do not. That SHOULD prompt gratitude and awe, as well as humility to realize how NOT in control we actually are.

 

You didn’t make this a JAWM so I’m commenting with that in mind.

I'd be careful with this argument. You may be the "offended" party some day and this same rationale can be used against you.

 

Treat others as you would be treated.

[Tanaqui]

Yes, it always strikes me as self-centered, along with "I'd like to thank Jesus for my success as a singer/actor/athlete/doctor/whatever...."

 

(And if you figure that God's specific intentional will includes genocide, Guinea worms, and Showtime on the subway, then I'd like to suggest that you examine your beliefs just a wee bit more closely.)

[Tanaqui]

That is directly contrary to the gospel and harmful, far more harmful than the understanding that the consequences of a sinful and fallen world, as well as my own sinful choices, span the breadth of painful human experience.

 

Wait, wait. Does God's plan trump free will, or is it the other way around?

 

Because I don't see how God can have a specific, predetermined intentional will on the one hand (your words) and yet this world can also be influenced by your own choices, sinful or otherwise. These two concepts are mutually contradictory.

 

Edited March 17, 2018 by Tanaqui

[fraidycat]

What are you talking about? I have had loss and pain and the physical realities of this world, too. I was speaking about that dead relative from a place of experience. And the disabled son. I could detail some more pain, but the extent of it isn’t the point. Everyone has their own struggles and hardships whether we see them or not.

 

There is no unkindness in recognizing that God’s purpose with his creation isn’t to make me happy and bless me just the way I want. That is directly contrary to the gospel and harmful, far more harmful than the understanding that the consequences of a sinful and fallen world, as well as my own sinful choices, span the breadth of painful human experience.

See, I wasn't talking about God. I was talking about truth. And the truth of certain words or phrases, even if someone finds them offensive.

[Tanaqui]

The free will of the creator of the universe is not the same as creaturely freedom. Nothing is outside of God’s control or plan, nothing is a surprise. Nothing is contravening Him. We are not God, we are not equal with him, and our will and sin is our choice, but it cannot thwart him.

 

Well, you don't mind saying what you believe is true, no matter if it offends others, so I hope you don't mind that I feel the same way. This is nonsense.

 

[SparklyUnicorn]

Just think "unicorns and rainbows" when you hear it.  That's what I do.  :laugh:

 

Cuz at least unicorns are fun.  And rainbows are pretty (and real). 

[Catwoman]

I really think Christians feel a sense of humility when they say, "...but by the grace of God, I (survived, avoided such and such, etc.)." I know when I believed, it felt like the appropriate thing to say when I narrowly escaped something tragic. But now that I'm not convinced that God exists, this phrase REALLY bothers me.

 

A student who would have been sitting in a desk that had bullet holes (Florida high school shooting) happened to leave school early that day. The students who sit on both sides of her were killed. When interviewed, she said, "But by the grace of God, I left school early that day." What about the students who died? Where was God's grace for them? How can we claim that God is the reason we survive tragedy and others don't? Am I the only one who sees this claim as arrogant? "God actually interfered in this situation to save ME. I must be special. God must have a purpose for MY life - the others ...well, not so much?" How about not claiming a higher power stepped in unless everyone survived? It's SO incredibly hurtful for people to hear those words whose loved ones didn't "make the cut" for God's grace. Why don't we just call it the only thing we know it is - luck.

I have never heard anyone say it in an arrogant way, like to say that they thought they were more special to God than the people who didn’t survive the same tragic event.

 

I honestly just think people are sometimes so overwhelmed by what happened to them and so thankful to have survived, and they aren’t thinking about how others might interpret their phrasing.

 

I don’t see why we shouldn’t extend some grace to people who have survived terrible experiences, instead of assuming the worst about them.

[happi duck]

I'm a Christian and that phrase/attitude really bothers me!

 

I've been really hurt by the attitude of certain Christians in my life that everything they deem positive in their life is "God's favor". When carpy things happen in my life these are the people who start to "troubleshoot" what I'm doing wrong. Bleh. It was hard to not feel like things we're my fault for not being "xyz enough", kwim?

 

I decided to try church again but this time with a denomination that sometimes gets questions about whether they're "Christian enough". I like being with people who are not defined by what they're against.

[Lady Florida.]

Hmmm. As a former believer who became pretty much anti-religion I see it as a form of "Holy #@$^, that could have been me!" Even when I believed I thought of it as more luck and coincidence than actual intervention from God.

 

I can see how it would bother those of you who interpret the saying more literally though. So yeah, if people are meaning it literally, it's bothersome. The tornado skipped right over our house where the baby was sleeping thanks to God. Well, what about the houses it didn't skip over? 

Edited March 17, 2018 by Lady Florida.

[Zebra]

I think it's one thing when someone says it to you about YOUR experience.    As in, isn't it great that by the grace of God YOU escaped THAT situation.   

 

But, when they say it about their own experience?   I think they have they have the right to see it as they wish. 

 

 

 

    

 

 

 

[eternalsummer]

I am not Christian, but I've always seen that and similar sentiments less as "God has favored me in this way because I am an especially righteous person" and more as "I am lucky that God has favored me in this way."  

 

If you see God as the essential controller of things, and something good happens to you (or something bad doesn't happen to you), then the only logical conclusion is that you've been blessed or spared by God - but it doesn't necessarily imply that he's blessed or spared you because you're super awesome, just that you were lucky enough to be, at this point in the plan of the universe, blessed or spared.

 

 

I don't see God as a person sitting in the sky (or a sort of separate deity - "tao called tao is not tao," etc.), so for me, when I miss hitting a deer on the highway and say to myself, Thank God, I don't mean literally that a person in the sky has chosen to spare me from the deer (and not spared the people who do hit deer); instead, I'm expressing gratefulness at what you might call luck or providence or good fortune.

[desertstrawberry5]

I use that phrase as a Buddhist, because I'm not aware of nonchristian equivalent of receiving fate's favor ( this one time) when it could have just as easily been me.

 

I especially like to whip this out when it feels like the conversation leans in the direction of victim blaming.

 

There unfortunately are people (Christian or not) who believe that we get *exactly* what we deserve and that if tragedy befalls you or yours it because of some error on your part. This leads to a lot of blame and suspicion that no matter how good and perfect a victim of tragedy appears, they must surely have some ugly, dark secret sins that earned them this outcome. It's a horrible view of the world. 

[ThisIsTheDay]

I really think Christians feel a sense of humility when they say, "...but by the grace of God, I (survived, avoided such and such, etc.)."  I know when I believed, it felt like the appropriate thing to say when I narrowly escaped something tragic.  But now that I'm not convinced that God exists, this phrase REALLY bothers me. 

 

A student who would have been sitting in a desk that had bullet holes (Florida high school shooting) happened to leave school early that day.  The students who sit on both sides of her were killed.  When interviewed, she said, "But by the grace of God, I left school early that day."  What about the students who died?  Where was God's grace for them?  How can we claim that God is the reason we survive tragedy and others don't?  Am I the only one who sees this claim as arrogant?  "God actually interfered in this situation to save ME.  I must be special.  God must have a purpose for MY life - the others ...well, not so much?"    How about not claiming a higher power stepped in unless everyone survived?  It's SO incredibly hurtful for people to hear those words whose loved ones didn't "make the cut" for God's grace.  Why don't we just call it the only thing we know it is - luck.

 

I am so sorry you are having doubts right now.

 

The use of this phrase bothers me too, along with similar phrases, "God is good, all the time," etc. While I believe they are accurate, they are phrases most often used by people who have a "good" outcome.

 

Because I believe God IS good, all the time, that we should praise God ALL the time, that by the grace of God--period. Can I see His goodness even in the worst of times? If something should happen to my child, should I get that bad doctor's report, upon any devastating news, my own thoughts, while maybe not instantly, should always revert quickly back to praising God, the grace of God, and His goodness. Because it is true whether everything is going along nicely in my life--or not.

 

Like you, I also have thought similarly when these shootings (or any large awful news story) occur. I've been close to two/three of them (various reasons). I would never tell a friend, "I am so glad your child survived," because someone else's did not. There is no gladness there.

 

I don't believe God necessarily interferes either way here, but I believe that beauty WILL rise from the ashes, some how, some way, if we keep our focus on Him. I have watched a few close friends walk through horrible tragedies, series of tragedies, and I have seen God do great works in their families (despite the random and unconnected losses of several children/grandchildren for one example). This world IS NOT ALL THERE IS, and this life here is short--sometimes shorter than we can imagine. There IS a purpose for every life; God has a plan for my life, although He may not play that out for me to see it while I am here on earth.

 

We are not to look at things from an earthly perspective. While we can't see it from an entirely heavenly perspective, there ARE answers to your questions and your doubts. But they won't be heard in a newsclip from a 15 year old whose natural first thought is to find some reason why she survived.

 

:grouphug: :grouphug: :grouphug:

 

 

[desertstrawberry5]

Well if someone believes in God’s providence, recognizing that it is only grace (common or specific) that might preserve a life is the plain truth. In this worldview, luck doesn’t exist.

 

It was God’s specific hand in my life that gave me my son, for example - Benjamin’s life and course was an intentional working of his creator for his ultimate glory - it doesn’t matter that he isn’t perfect or lucky by the world’s standards. If the premise is that the entire course of history is the enactment of God’s specific, predetermined, intentional will with his creation, that saying fits perfectly.

 

Whether you are offended by it or not doesn’t make it less true. That isn’t to say there are not circumstances where expressing it should be tempered with sympathy or gentleness (it doesn’t matter whether God numbered my dead relative’s days, young or old, it’s not an appropriate thing to remind the grieving of until they specifically bring it up). But it’s not arrogant to recognize that it is only by God’s grace we draw breath, especially when confronted with the fact that others do not. That SHOULD prompt gratitude and awe, as well as humility to realize how NOT in control we actually are.

 

You didn’t make this a JAWM so I’m commenting with that in mind.

This is such a good explanation of this phrase. It does bother me when people claim god's favor based on their own successes and luck. It feels arrogant. But this description ( and you r following posts) bring it much closer to my own ideas of destiny and karma. Karma doesn't care. It doesn't love or hate. it just is. No matter how you feel about it. 

[6packofun]

 I asked "what about all the Chinese people and people in Africa?" and never got a satisfactory reply.

 

Huh. What about them? Because the areas of the world with the most growth in Christianity have been Africa and Asia in the last several years, if I remember the stats correctly.  What would be a "satisfactory reply" on this to you?

[Liz CA]

I'm a Christian and that phrase/attitude really bothers me!

 

I've been really hurt by the attitude of certain Christians in my life that everything they deem positive in their life is "God's favor". When carpy things happen in my life these are the people who start to "troubleshoot" what I'm doing wrong. Bleh. It was hard to not feel like things we're my fault for not being "xyz enough", kwim?

 

I decided to try church again but this time with a denomination that sometimes gets questions about whether they're "Christian enough". I like being with people who are not defined by what they're against.

 

 

I usually stay out of threads like these because as another poster said, it all depends on the premise. But this type of "theology" is unfortunately rather prevalent and rather hurtful to people.

It clearly says in scripture (of course only meaningful to those who believe it): "The rain will fall on the just and the unjust." Another verse reads: "As surely as the sparks fly upward you shall have trouble."

 

Nowhere does it say, trouble is only for those whom God "forgot" to favor.

[Bluegoat]

Hmm, well I've generally understood that phrase t mean that the person saying it could just as easily had the same bad outcome, and the processes that led to the good outcome are nothing to do with one's own goodness or choices or value.

 

So kind of the opposite of claiming some greater worth.

 

I think it takes for granted the idea that all actions are contained within God's providence, so without understanding that, the context of the statement might be unclear.

[fraidycat]

Huh. What about them? Because the areas of the world with the most growth in Christianity have been Africa and Asia in the last several years, if I remember the stats correctly. What would be a "satisfactory reply" on this to you?

This was 30+ years ago, and irrelevant now as I'm no longer a believer.

Edited March 17, 2018 by fraidycat

[Bluegoat]

incidentally, as far as the question of good outcomes being a sign of favour in Christian theology, I'd recommend the Consolation of Philosophy, by the Roman politician Boethius, written when he was imprisoned. It covers both the nature of fortune and the question of free will and providence.  

[poppy]

Outspoken believe -- and being prosecuted for that -- is a core trait in certain strains of Christianity.   It's a  sign of virtue.

 

From MY religious perspective, it is a really hard thing to hear. I'm blessed because of God = those aren't blessed, were not looked as favorably by God.  Uncle didn't die of cancer, my dad did, by grace of God............   It doesn't fit my faith POV at all and honestly I find it distasteful.

 

But I do understand that it is not "bragging", it is fulfilling a spiritual practice- it's an obligation,  like prayer. It's not done for me, intended for me, anything  to do with me.  So it's an tolerance opportunity.  Since I come from a Chrsitian background it can be harder for me "put up with" Christian spiritual practices than ones that are more outside of my experience.  But, I try.

 

 

[Rosie_0801]

I think, how that phrasing is interpreted depends much on your view of God's character.

[Daria]

Well if someone believes in God’s providence, recognizing that it is only grace (common or specific) that might preserve a life is the plain truth. In this worldview, luck doesn’t exist.

 

It was God’s specific hand in my life that gave me my son, for example - Benjamin’s life and course was an intentional working of his creator for his ultimate glory - it doesn’t matter that he isn’t perfect or lucky by the world’s standards. If the premise is that the entire course of history is the enactment of God’s specific, predetermined, intentional will with his creation, that saying fits perfectly.

 

Whether you are offended by it or not doesn’t make it less true. That isn’t to say there are not circumstances where expressing it should be tempered with sympathy or gentleness (it doesn’t matter whether God numbered my dead relative’s days, young or old, it’s not an appropriate thing to remind the grieving of until they specifically bring it up). But it’s not arrogant to recognize that it is only by God’s grace we draw breath, especially when confronted with the fact that others do not. That SHOULD prompt gratitude and awe, as well as humility to realize how NOT in control we actually are.

 

You didn’t make this a JAWM so I’m commenting with that in mind.

 

I understand that you believe that, it's not what I happen to believe, but I can understand and respect that you believe it.

 

But I can't understand AT ALL, what people who believe this are thinking when they say it out loud to people who have just experienced something really hard, or groups that contain those people. 

 

I mean, if I believed everything was a matter of luck, I still certainly wouldn't say to someone who lost a loved one at Parkland "It happened at your school, and not mine.  Guess I'm the lucky one!"  I mean, I might think that's true, but I have manners!  

[Bluegoat]

I understand that you believe that, it's not what I happen to believe, but I can understand and respect that you believe it.

 

But I can't understand AT ALL, what people who believe this are thinking when they say it out loud to people who have just experienced something really hard, or groups that contain those people. 

 

I mean, if I believed everything was a matter of luck, I still certainly wouldn't say to someone who lost a loved one at Parkland "It happened at your school, and not mine.  Guess I'm the lucky one!"  I mean, I might think that's true, but I have manners!  

 

I think its because people often blame themselves or wonder if they'd done something differently, if the bad thing could have been averted.  They look for reasons why they are suffering and others were lucky.

 

The people saying it was just Grace are essentially saying, no, it wasn't anyones' fault, or anything they did.  I did not luck out for any reason we can understand.  It wasn't something under our control.

[Daria]

I follow a lot of people in the special needs adoption community.  I occasionally hear things that are like souped up versions of this, that make me cringe.  

 

Once, I was reading a blog by a woman who had adopted several siblings from Sierra Leone.  These kids had one of the hardest pre-adoption stories I have ever read.  It involved their parents murder, and fleeing in the middle of the night, and other siblings who were either conscripted as child soldiers or died of dysentery in refugee camps. 

 

Anyway, a few days after the kids came home, their new mother posted something along these lines:

"I like to use paper cups.  I'm paranoid about germs, and I think it's safer, but yesterday I ran out of paper cups.  I didn't want to go to the store, because the kids are still so overwhelmed, so I got down on the knees and prayed.  Sure enough, a few hours later a neighbor knocked on my door and said 'I was at the store and I thought I should pick up something for you, but I couldn't think what.  So, I got you paper cups.'  I gathered my children, and showed them the cups and told them "See, God cares for us.  He won't let anything bad happen to us because he knows we're good people" 

 

All I could think is "Who the hell tells small children, who have seen almost their entire family die in terrible ways, that bad things don't happen to good people?"  Wouldn't that basically be the same as telling them that God didn't love them until they became Christian?  

 

I also have to admit that I wondered, if you're so confident that you're "chosen" and God would never let anything bad happen to you, why are you using paper cups again? 

 

This is an extreme example, but I see similar things pretty regularly, and every time I shudder.

[Rosie_0801]

That is award-winningly tactless.

[MotherGoose]

I have never heard anyone say it in an arrogant way, like to say that they thought they were more special to God than the people who didn’t survive the same tragic event.

 

I honestly just think people are sometimes so overwhelmed by what happened to them and so thankful to have survived, and they aren’t thinking about how others might interpret their phrasing.

 

I don’t see why we shouldn’t extend some grace to people who have survived terrible experiences, instead of assuming the worst about them.

Yes, this. And I have also said it about people with drug addiction, or homelessness, or other disaster: But for the grace of God go I. I don't know why I wasn't born into poverty or to a drug addicted mom, or into terrible circumstances. I don't deserve God's grace. For some reason I was born into a healthy family. But for the grace of God go I into drug addiction or crime or poverty and homelessness. It's really saying you identify with those folks and recognize that if not for the grace of God you might be in the same space. It's recognizing the fact that you aren't in your present situation because of something you did. I guess those who aren't religious might say "But for the good decisions of my ancestors, or my decisions (if you were raised in a terrible situation but escaped) go I.

[VaKim]

In my "circles," the meaning of that is always to do with the fact that we are all capable of the very worst sins were it not for God's grace. We would say something like, "But for the grace of God, I could have committed that same act (killed someone, been a drug addict, committed suicide, been a thief, etc.). 

 

"The story that is widely circulated is that the phrase was first spoken by the English evangelical preacher and martyr, John Bradford (circa 1510–1555). He is said to have uttered the variant of the expression - "There but for the grace of God, goes John Bradford", when seeing criminals being led to the scaffold."

[poppy]

Yes, this. And I have also said it about people with drug addiction, or homelessness, or other disaster: But for the grace of God go I. I don't know why I wasn't born into poverty or to a drug addicted mom, or into terrible circumstances. I don't deserve God's grace. For some reason I was born into a healthy family. But for the grace of God go I into drug addiction or crime or poverty and homelessness. It's really saying you identify with those folks and recognize that if not for the grace of God you might be in the same space. It's recognizing the fact that you aren't in your present situation because of something you did. I guess those who aren't religious might say "But for the good decisions of my ancestors, or my decisions (if you were raised in a terrible situation but escaped) go I.

 

 

Yeah, but, people still experiencing drug addiction and homeless can, at least in theory, overcome it with God's grace.     Not much you can do after  being murdered.

 

I mean, I'm not going to attack a kid who is traumatized by a shooting, but, hopefully he or she thinks about the comment and doesn't repeat them in front of  families whose kids were killed.

[Mimm]

Mostly hear I hear people using it in a "Better not judge this person and what they're going through because I might be going through it too, and the grace of God (and not my own choices or specialness) is the only reason I am not." Christians are told to be thankful to God for their blessings, but there's no way to do that without implying something negative. I choose to be thankful anyway. I don't think God loves me more than people less blessed and less than people who have more blessings. I think we just have our own unique life situations and should be thankful for the good in them.

 

But I also don't go around talking about how God is going to make sure my life stays good and convenient and sheltered because I'm a good person or something. (That paper cup story above has me :confused1: .)

[PeachyDoodle]

Grace is, by definition, UNMERITED favor. So I'm having trouble following the argument that attributing anything to God's grace is arrogant.

[barnwife]

Suffering is part of this life, and I am grateful that I experience less of it than I should, by my position as a sinful, fallen creature in front of a Holy God.

Can I pass this quote on to someone I know who is struggling right now?

[Scarlett]

I really think Christians feel a sense of humility when they say, "...but by the grace of God, I (survived, avoided such and such, etc.)." I know when I believed, it felt like the appropriate thing to say when I narrowly escaped something tragic. But now that I'm not convinced that God exists, this phrase REALLY bothers me.

 

A student who would have been sitting in a desk that had bullet holes (Florida high school shooting) happened to leave school early that day. The students who sit on both sides of her were killed. When interviewed, she said, "But by the grace of God, I left school early that day." What about the students who died? Where was God's grace for them? How can we claim that God is the reason we survive tragedy and others don't? Am I the only one who sees this claim as arrogant? "God actually intervened in this situation to save ME. I must be special. God must have a purpose for MY life - the others ...well, not so much?" How about not claiming a higher power stepped in unless everyone survived? It's SO incredibly hurtful for people to hear those words whose loved ones didn't "make the cut" for God's grace. Why don't we just call it the only thing we know it is - luck.

I am a believer in God and I have always hated that expression. I do use it sometimes in a sarcastic way with people who believe the same way I do.....which is to say that God doesn't pick and choose in that way,

 

I believe God has a purpose for mankind and the earth in general. I believe he helps us at times in various ways. But individuals are subject to free will and time and unforeseen occurrence.

[Guest]

 

I don’t see why we shouldn’t extend some grace to people who have survived terrible experiences, instead of assuming the worst about them.

 

I'm not assuming the worst about these people- I believe they are saying this in humility.  I remember saying it in total humility as well.  My point is that they don't realize how this statement comes across to others who were less fortunate.  Why did God save your child and not mine?    By saying God's grace saved your child from tragedy, you are also saying God (for some reason) chose NOT to save my child from tragedy.   That's the arrogant part - it's assuming God stepped in to save you and not others.

 

**Also, wanted to mention that the shooting story was just an example.  I obviously have nothing against the young girl.  It's just the latest example of someone using the phrase who survived a tragedy when others didn't.  I heard an interview from a cop who was one stoplight behind the one where the bridge collapsed.  She said the same thing.  Why couldn't God step in and let everyone be late????  Or just make sure the bridge didn't collapse on top of people in the first place - but that's another conversation.

[Catwoman]

I'm not assuming the worst about these people- I believe they are saying this in humility. I remember saying it in total humility as well. My point is that they don't realize how this statement comes across to others who were less fortunate. Why did God save your child and not mine? By saying God's grace saved your child from tragedy, you are also saying God (for some reason) chose NOT to save my child from tragedy. That's the arrogant part - it's assuming God stepped in to save you and not others.

 

**Also, wanted to mention that the shooting story was just an example. I obviously have nothing against the young girl. It's just the latest example of someone using the phrase who survived a tragedy when others didn't. I heard an interview from a cop who was one stoplight behind the one where the bridge collapsed. She said the same thing. Why couldn't God step in and let everyone be late???? Or just make sure the bridge didn't collapse on top of people in the first place - but that's another conversation.

If they’re truly saying it in humility, I would not assume any arrogance because none was intended.

 

Just because a person says that he was saved “by the grace of God†doesn’t mean that he believes that other people didn’t deserve to live.

 

My dad died of leukemia. I have known other people who survived the same disease and who believe that God had a hand in their survival. It would never occur to me that when they said God had saved them, that they also meant that my dad wasn’t as worthy as they were, or that God loved them more than He loved my dad. I would never think to be offended by their comments. They were cured of a disease that kills many people and they are very grateful for their survival. If they believe God saved them, I am very happy for them, and I don’t look for reasons to be offended by their heartfelt thankfulness that they are still alive.

[Ausmumof3]

Our Sunday this week was mostly about this. Why God allows one person to suffer and another not.

 

When I use that phrase it would be more in relation to something people typically would think was related to character or hard work or something - like kids becoming drug addicts or someone ending up unemployed. It's just a way of acknowledging that it's not necessarily anything I've done that's given us a better outcome. I feel like that's an important counterbalance to the attitude Christians can have of - we do everything right so everything good that happens is because of the way we live.

 

But I'm not overly attached to the phrase. Ecclesiastes says it better "time and chance happens to them all".

[fairfarmhand]

I’m currently doing some word processing for a pastor in our church in the topic of God’s will. We’re free will baptists so there’s an emphasis on god allowing people to make their own choices.

 

I can explain more later but sometimes I feel that people have an improper understanding of God’s hand in their lives and that’s why they say things like that.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[gardenmom5]

I'm very religious.   I believe one the greatest gifts given to us by God - is freedom to choose.  (some people choose to do very bad things.  we need to  also focus on other people choose to do good things. becasue they're out there.)

 

I think the tbtgog people are siblings of Job's Comforters.  you know the ones who think the only reason people have bad things happen to *other people* is they must have done something to deserve it.  sometimes, bad stuff happens - because bad stuff happens.   and for many reasons. (e.g. not every one who develops lung cancer smoked)

 

I don't think it's about their "abundance" of faith, or humility - but actually I consider it a lack of faith (and humility).  and trying to convince themselves nothing bad will happen to THEM becasue "they're so pious."  iow: based in fear, and a form of self-comfort. 

Job's comforters go around telling themselves they don't do bad things - so they comfort themselves bad things won't happen to them. (during some particularly trying challenges - I dealt with a lot of jcs . . big, honkin' eye roll.)   tbftgog people - I think are very similar.

 

I ignore both groups.  I figure life will disavow them of that. or maybe not.

 

eta: - this is really not some hard and fast thing - there are so many nuances and little details.

Edited March 18, 2018 by gardenmom5

[poppy]

If they’re truly saying it in humility, I would not assume any arrogance because none was intended.

 

Just because a person says that he was saved “by the grace of God†doesn’t mean that he believes that other people didn’t deserve to live.

 

My dad died of leukemia. I have known other people who survived the same disease and who believe that God had a hand in their survival. It would never occur to me that when they said God had saved them, that they also meant that my dad wasn’t as worthy as they were, or that God loved them more than He loved my dad. I would never think to be offended by their comments. They were cured of a disease that kills many people and they are very grateful for their survival. If they believe God saved them, I am very happy for them, and I don’t look for reasons to be offended by their heartfelt thankfulness that they are still alive.

 

I think it's ungenerous to say people are "looking for reasons to be offended" . ' I'm so glad God spared me' can be a pretty cruel thing to say, to a survivor.  It's happened to me and it felt like a slap. I wasn't looking for it, trust me.There's NO reason to tell me you are grateful for the thing that didn't happen to you , that did happen to my family.  But of course I responded politely. As one does.  To be told my internal reaction was basically just me.... what, being petty? That's not kind.

Edited March 18, 2018 by poppy

[Catwoman]

I think it's ungenerous to say people are "looking for reasons to be offended" . ' I'm so glad God spared me' can be a pretty cruel thing to say, to a survivor. It's happened to me and it felt like a slap. I wasn't looking for it, trust me.There's NO reason to tell me you are grateful for the thing that didn't happen to you , that did happen to my family. But of course I responded politely. As one does. To be told my internal reaction was basically just me.... what, being petty? That's not kind.

But they don’t mean to be cruel. They aren’t being cruel to you. In that moment, it’s not about you. It’s about them being thankful to be alive.

 

Would you prefer that they apologize to you for having survived?

 

Certainly people should express sympathy to a person who has lost a loved one, but can’t they also be glad that they were spared the same fate?

 

I can understand being very sensitive to any kind of comments when we have suffered a personal tragedy. It’s a terrible time and it doesn’t take much to upset us. But afterward, when we think about it, I think we should try to judge people by their intentions.

 

If the person who made the comment to you was honestly saying that her life was spared because she was a better person and God loved and valued her more than He valued your loved one who died, I absolutely agree with you that she’s not just insensitive, but that she’s also an arrogant jerk! But if she was sorry for what happened to your loved one, yet still grateful that she wasn’t the one who died, I don’t think she was being intentionally cruel to you.

[Greta]

But they don’t mean to be cruel. They aren’t being cruel to you. In that moment, it’s not about you. It’s about them being thankful to be alive.

 

Would you prefer that they apologize to you for having survived?

 

Certainly people should express sympathy to a person who has lost a loved one, but can’t they also be glad that they were spared the same fate?

 

I can understand being very sensitive to any kind of comments when we have suffered a personal tragedy. It’s a terrible time and it doesn’t take much to upset us. But afterward, when we think about it, I think we should try to judge people by their intentions.

 

If the person who made the comment to you was honestly saying that her life was spared because she was a better person and God loved and valued her more than He valued your loved one who died, I absolutely agree with you that she’s not just insensitive, but that she’s also an arrogant jerk! But if she was sorry for what happened to your loved one, yet still grateful that she wasn’t the one who died, I don’t think she was being intentionally cruel to you.

 

 

But it IS cruel to say that to someone who is suffering, whether that cruelty is intentional or not.  The part I put in bold, that is precisely the problem.  They are making someone else's pain all about themselves.  That's selfish and myopic and completely inappropriate.  If you want to express your gratitude that you were spared from some tragedy, you can do that in prayer or in other ways at other times.  You don't do it to the person who wasn't spared!

[hornblower]

But it IS cruel to say that to someone who is suffering, whether that cruelty is intentional or not.  The part I put in bold, that is precisely the problem.  They are making someone else's pain all about themselves.  That's selfish and myopic and completely inappropriate.  If you want to express your gratitude that you were spared from some tragedy, you can do that in prayer or in other ways at other times.  You don't do it to the person who wasn't spared!

 

It's like rubbing their faces in it. And on top of it all, they're attributing it to a specialness about themselves and also saying the other person wasn't special enough to be graced by god.  

 

I can see someone being so happy if they truly believed that their god had a hand in saving them that they'd want to celebrate it but you don't do it in front of people who are suffering.  It just seems callous.

 

What about if people said "I don't know what I did or why I deserve to be here now but I'm determined to be the best person possible and try to help those less fortunate." That would be nice.  Alas, it doesn't really flow from the tongue lol...

 

 

But I also agree with you Catwoman - 99% of what everyone is says is just about ourselves. We're a very self centered bunch.... 

 

And I also think that the phrase in some places is so common that it's almost meaningless. I mean even atheists say "oh thank god"  because it's just a common phrase to express fortune... 

[LarlaB]

Well yeah, we are all kind of about ourselves 99% of the time.  Unless you are trained or work in a people helping capacity, you usually don't think about others first and yourself second.   

I've been on the receiving end of a lot of stupidly insensitive comments referencing hardships I've experienced but someone else was 'spared' from:  Miscarriage.  Infertility.  Job Loss.  Chronic Illness.  Accidents.  Mentally Ill parents.  It just sucks to hear right up until I realize they aren't "rubbing my face in it" but rather expressing their immense relief to have NOT experienced the difficulty.  Its about pain- its not about me.  It's their experience. Just like my weeping over my pain is my experience.  Both are real. 

 

One of my best friends said (in reference to my DH losing his job) that I was living her worst nightmare and she was having a panic attack over just the thought of her DH losing his job.  Hmmm.  That stung and sounded the same as "thank God it hasn't happened to me"- which is fair.  And yes- I AM thankful it didn't happen to her and hope it never does.  But it doesn't change that it did happen to me.   Honestly, I'm glad when people have been spared the hardships I've gone thru.  And I've been relieved to be spared hardships that I've watched others go thru. I think its normal response.   

We struggle with pain.  We try to make sense of it, organize it, rationalize and work so so so hard to prevent it and control life.  We pretend we can perfect our speech, actions and intent so that it is fair and hardship free for all.  That's a tough one for me because its impossible. I'm not saying we just don't try- but rather that we live with acceptance that sh$t happens. Two people have the same cancer prognosis- 1 lives, 1 dies. That's just hard.  There's no finger pointing, excuses or anxiety that will change it.  

I'm a Christian (but trending towards Buddhist influence- in that I think Christianity tends towards 'working it out/control' way too much instead of acceptance. My faith is built on the acceptance that I can't earn goodness & favor and I certainly don't deserve it.  And it needs to stay there.  Anything more and I start to think I can earn or deserve XYZ.    Yes- I wish that I had been spared hardship in life and I resent the hardship in my life.  But I've learned- God does what He does- it's on me to obey and trust.  Believe me, I've wrestled it to the ground 250X and will probably wake up tomorrow to start the 251X.   

 

I don't pretend to understand why He allows things, or heals some, or or or or....but I still won't hesitate to thank Him for the blessings in my life.  God gives and God takes away.  Blessed be the name of God. 
 

[gardenmom5]

Well yeah, we are all kind of about ourselves 99% of the time.  Unless you are trained or work in a people helping capacity, you usually don't think about others first and yourself second.   

 

I've been on the receiving end of a lot of stupidly insensitive comments referencing hardships I've experienced but someone else was 'spared' from:  Miscarriage.  Infertility.  Job Loss.  Chronic Illness.  Accidents.  Mentally Ill parents.  It just sucks to hear right up until I realize they aren't "rubbing my face in it" but rather expressing their immense relief to have NOT experienced the difficulty.  Its about pain- its not about me.  It's their experience. Just like my weeping over my pain is my experience.  Both are real. 

 

 

I have found there is a big difference between not-thinking insensitive comments - and downright judgmental. I've had both.

not-thinking insensitive- on a good day, I can role my eyes.   even to the one, after asking if my husband had found a job yet (he'd been out of work over a year) "oh good, you're not busy. he can babysit, and you can come spend a week doing ___". :ohmy:    I don't hold it against her, the woman is totally clueless . .. but, I'd never ask her for help with anything either, as she is too dog gone clueless.

 

others, not so much.  

we had some "you're not trying hard enough" comments.   I've had people tell me - (one person 2x - to.my. face.)  it was my fault, becasue I was doing things wrong, that my son was having so many problems.   he was subsequently diagnosed asd by a major medical center.  (I did enjoy the look of horror on her husband's face when he found out.  you know he believed her - and I was the one who told him dudeling had been diagnosed asd.  he was extremely embarrassed.  afterwards- the wife, never apologized, but was much more polite.)

and worse.

[J-rap]

It would never occur to me that someone was saying it as though they thought they were more special or anything like that. I think of it more as a general belief that submits to God's power and the mystery of life's events, I suppose.  Similar to the Islamic saying "insha'Allah" -- If God wills it.  

 

At the same time, I do get what you mean.  I'm a Christian, but God's providence in our everyday lives isn't a big part of my faith.  Not that I don't ever believe it happens, but in general I think things just play out.  So I might thank God that a terrible thing was avoided, while not really believing that He was involved with it, either way, besides grieving for the people who were affected.  It's more just being thankful that somehow I lucked out.

 

 

[Greta]

But the post referenced at the beginning a survivor saying it about *their own experience*. It wasn’t someone on the outside of the circle. That would indeed require a different response than “aren’t you grateful God spared you but not that other kid†or whatever else is being imagined and imported in? It’s about the person saying it of their own experiences. Am I misunderstanding which individual you’re talking about?

 

 

 

I'm sorry I was unclear, I was thinking more about Poppy's experience than about what the OP posted.  I should have specified that, because I completely agree with you that a survivor framing their own experience that way is completely appropriate and understandable.  It's just not something that I think should be said to a survivor by someone who hasn't had to deal with that particular tragedy.  (And believe me, I'm not claiming that I've always said the right thing in difficult circumstances!  Far from it!  Oh my, I wish that I had the wisdom to say the right, compassionate, wise things at the appropriate time, but I most certainly do not.)

 

 

I can say God graciously gave me a brain damaged son, and by God’s same grace he is alive. People look at me like I’m crazy. But whether they think it’s right or not by their worldview, it is my own reflection of my own circumstance in light of my own worldview and therefore s comment entirely appropriate to make. Saying it *of someone else* without them expressly directing the conversation that direction is not the best way to express solidarity and sympathy with their grief.

 

I don't think that's crazy.  I think you have amazing wisdom and love, Arctic Mama.  

 

 

It’s not a Christian tool, but the circle of comfort is a very useful model to refer to in these situations. Let your proximity to the event and the person you’re speaking with dictate how much you say.

 

 

Yes, I like that as well.  

[J-rap]

But it IS cruel to say that to someone who is suffering, whether that cruelty is intentional or not.  The part I put in bold, that is precisely the problem.  They are making someone else's pain all about themselves.  That's selfish and myopic and completely inappropriate.  If you want to express your gratitude that you were spared from some tragedy, you can do that in prayer or in other ways at other times.  You don't do it to the person who wasn't spared!

 

Yes, very good point.  I think mostly it's unintentional, but it's also quite insensitive to say this directly to the person who is suffering when you're not.  Absolutely.

[poppy]

But the post referenced at the beginning a survivor saying it about *their own experience*. It wasn’t someone on the outside of the circle. That would indeed require a different response than “aren’t you grateful God spared you but not that other kid†or whatever else is being imagined and imported in? It’s about the person saying it of their own experiences. Am I misunderstanding which individual you’re talking about?

 

I can say God graciously gave me a brain damaged son, and by God’s same grace he is alive. And if God chose to take his life from us that would also be gracious and right of he, the creator, to do. People look at me like I’m crazy. But whether they think it’s right or not by their worldview, it is my own reflection of my own circumstance in light of my own worldview and therefore s comment entirely appropriate to make. Saying it *of someone else* without them expressly directing the conversation that direction is not the best way to express solidarity and sympathy with their grief.

 

It’s not a Christian tool, but the circle of comfort is a very useful model to refer to in these situations. Let your proximity to the event and the person you’re speaking with dictate how much you say.

 

I don't know many people with a medically challenging child who isn't grateful to have that kid, religious or not.This isn't that. This is "I thank God every day he blessed me with a child that can see" to the mother of a blind child.

 

I realize it's just thoughtlessness.  I get it.  I always respond graciously .I  just wish people would aim higher than thoughtless.  Especially after they've been told that the unintended consequence of the words is hurtful to people around you.  Then it goes from being thoughtless to selfish.

 

I'm talking about public comments, or comments to strangers. Not comments to family and friends and yourself, of course.

Edited March 18, 2018 by poppy