Surprised by rejection from University of Rochester

[clb3259]

I can share this easily because my daughter didn't want to go there. I've believed that UR is a fine school with broad program offerings and it's actually where I received my bachelor's degree in 1997. I had received very generous merit scholarships that made it as affordable as a state school at the time. I was a high-achieving public school student with extracurriculars coming out my ears, so I get that this is what colleges favor.

 

But here's the thing--comparing my high school senior self to my daughter, I know that her college readiness and achievement would far surpass mine. She is brilliant in language arts and reasoning, won a national essay contest, has good test scores--SAT 1380 (math is not her friend), 5's on AP US History and English Language. Extracurriculars include interesting activities like migratory bird banding and Latin teaching. Even a leadership award granted by the UR that honored her participation in the HOBY Leadership conference.

 

Like I said, she was not interested in going to UR and did not submit an extra (not mandatory) recommendation or do an interview (also optional), but I'm still pretty shocked that they suppose she doesn't qualify. She has an amazing deal at Hope College with generous merit that makes her top choice affordable--it just leaves me feeling weird about my alma mater. And I can't help but think that they may be reacting to this.

[maize]

I imagine acceptance rates have gone down since you were a student, as they have at many universities.

 

Current acceptance rates are about 34% based on a quick search.

 

Last year's entering class profile is here:

 

 

https://enrollment.rochester.edu/blog/class-of-2021-profile/

 

Given those stats I don't find your daughter's rejection surprising--I'm sure there are many non homeschooled students with similar stats who were also rejected.

 

Could have gone either way, the coin flip just didn't work out in her favor.

 

I'm glad she is happy with her top choice school, that is fabulous!

Edited March 16, 2018 by maize

[MerryAtHope]

Maybe they are being more careful now, but I also wonder if they are looking for a show of interest in the school. Maybe since she didn't do the optional things, they thought her interest was low? (Has she visited in person & was it a registered visit where they would know she came?) I think more schools are paying attention to that kind of thing now.

[wapiti]

My understanding is that the interview is very important for purposes of demonstrated interest at UR.  (I can't remember how I came by that bit of info, but I am certain of it.)

 

I'm not sure about UR specifically, but for some colleges, a legacy tip would involve applying early rather than regular decision.

[SanDiegoMom]

Applying early, campus visits, interviews, etc are all things that  many colleges use to figure out who is actually interested as a way to protect their yield numbers and selectivity ratings. 

[eternalsummer]

I looked quite briefly and found that her SAT was below average for their last admission class, and in combination with not actually being interested or demonstrating interest in going to the school, I'd be surprised if they had admitted her.

 

I doubt it has much to do with homeschooling.

[Corraleno]

A school with a 35% acceptance rate would be a reach, not a safety, for a student whose stats are below the 50th percentile for admitted students. A third of admitted students applied ED, and more than half did interviews, so I think a student who is marginal on stats and shows no interest in attending is not likely to be admitted.

[luuknam]

So, aside from this school not being a true safety, I guess the lesson is to make sure that you seem very eager to attend your safety, to reduce the odds of being denied out of yield protection?

 

I think the article writer's cat would've had a hard time getting decent SAT and AP scores.

[Corraleno]

I think the article writer's cat would've had a hard time getting decent SAT and AP scores.

I loved this comment on the article: "I don't think Thomas would have been admitted, not even to our new major in Mus Musculus Apprehension."  :lol:

 

 

[clb3259]

Good points. We live in Rochester, which is the main reason she wasn't earnestly hoping to go to UR. We did do a registered visit during her junior year, but I'm sure they sensed that she was lukewarm about them when she didn't jump through every hoop she could in the application. 

[8filltheheart]

I can share this easily because my daughter didn't want to go there. I've believed that UR is a fine school with broad program offerings and it's actually where I received my bachelor's degree in 1997. I had received very generous merit scholarships that made it as affordable as a state school at the time. I was a high-achieving public school student with extracurriculars coming out my ears, so I get that this is what colleges favor.

 

But here's the thing--comparing my high school senior self to my daughter, I know that her college readiness and achievement would far surpass mine. She is brilliant in language arts and reasoning, won a national essay contest, has good test scores--SAT 1380 (math is not her friend), 5's on AP US History and English Language. Extracurriculars include interesting activities like migratory bird banding and Latin teaching. Even a leadership award granted by the UR that honored her participation in the HOBY Leadership conference.

 

Like I said, she was not interested in going to UR and did not submit an extra (not mandatory) recommendation or do an interview (also optional), but I'm still pretty shocked that they suppose she doesn't qualify. She has an amazing deal at Hope College with generous merit that makes her top choice affordable--it just leaves me feeling weird about my alma mater. And I can't help but think that they may be reacting to this.

Are you sure the interview was optional? https://enrollment.rochester.edu/apply/freshmen/homeschool/

 

My Dd was accepted to UR last yr and we did not interpret subjective requirements as being optional requirements. We interpreted the transcript/course description, etc requirements as being categorized as objective requirements and the LOR, interview, a peer letter as subjective requirements (not optional supplementary info.)

[Corraleno]

Are you sure the interview was optional? https://enrollment.rochester.edu/apply/freshmen/homeschool/

 

My Dd was accepted to UR last yr and we did not interpret subjective requirements as being optional requirements. We interpreted the transcript/course description, etc requirements as being categorized as objective requirements and the LOR, interview, a peer letter as subjective requirements (not optional supplementary info.)

 

Wow, that's a lot of extra requirements for homeschoolers! I was especially surprised by the "peer review" requirement, which I've never seen anywhere else. Is that supposed to prove that the homeschooler is at least marginally "socialized" and hasn't been locked in a basement for the last 12 years?  :blink:

[8filltheheart]

Wow, that's a lot of extra requirements for homeschoolers! I was especially surprised by the "peer review" requirement, which I've never seen anywhere else. Is that supposed to prove that the homeschooler is at least marginally "socialized" and hasn't been locked in a basement for the last 12 years? :blink:

The peer review shows up on the regular app, too, but I think it is supplemental. I can't remember for sure.

 

UR was a simple CA app for my dd. It didn't take her more than 30 mins to complete bc she just cut words out of another essay for their 100 word supplement and her friend was happy to write the letter.

 

UR was not really a school of interest for dd. It was one of a couple of apps she threw in there to see how her complete lack of outside classes other than Mrs. Denne would be seen and if they would still offer merit $$. UR did offer a scholarship (though no where near as much as schools like Fordham), so at home, unverified grades did not hurt her application. To qualify that statement, though, dd's overall app was stronger than the OP's bc she had much higher test scores and ECs. I think test scores probably mattered a lot.

 

We did experiment with admissions with some of her apps to see what would happen bc she didn't follow conventional wisdom/traditional high school path. (Though we only did it with schools that offered merit $$ and didn't require more than token additional effort. (With UR she Skyped and edited an essay. I spent $$. ;) )

[maize]

Times have changed as far as student preparedness. My son applied to my alma mater with scores about the same as I had, but much more accomplished in ecs and more accelerated academically despite also living rural. Very surprised to be offered much less merit money, however I was in state and he would have been out of state. Also, many many more students with scores above 1400...I would have been very happy to have that high a percentage in that zone, would have made finding suitable study partners easier.

Yeah, acceptance rates at my alma mater are down more than twenty percentage points since I attended. Plenty of kids with 4.0s and good rest scores being rejected.

[katilac]

UC states that the typical successful applicant scores between 1900 and 2200 on the SAT, so she should have done any extras with her score to increase her chances. They also state an interview "can certainly help your chances at admission."  

 

But 8 is correct; the interview and recommendation letters were not extras, they are requirements (for homeschoolers), along with course descriptions, a reading list, a personal statement about homeschooling, and other things. 

 

I'm fairly certain that the similar homeschooling requirements have been in place for some time at this school, so it would not have been in response to your linked article. 

[wapiti]

On the score, all we have is the Class of 2021's average of 97th percentile, so the 94th percentile could still be inside the middle 50.  If the math section was especially low, I wonder if that may have been noticed.

 

It's interesting that U Roch chose to report an average percentile rather than an average score or score range.  Given the issues with the scoring change from old to new and the mix in Class of 2021, I think that was helpful, though a percentile middle 50 range would have been better.

 

Off topic - It's confusing that many schools just report SAT section scores (as the CDS calls for), but no SAT composite, whereas almost all schools report something for the ACT composite, and far fewer report ACT section scores, even on the CDS itself.  Do we anticipate that how schools report on their websites (not on the CDS), section vs composite, is what they use in their evaluation?  I have a hard time imagining how SAT scores are judged where, say, the composite is ok but the section scores are split high and low.

Edited March 17, 2018 by wapiti

[Arch at Home]

Off topic - It's confusing that many schools just report SAT section scores (as the CDS calls for), but no SAT composite, whereas almost all schools report something for the ACT composite, and far fewer report ACT section scores, even on the CDS itself. Do we anticipate that how schools report on their websites (not on the CDS), section vs composite, is what they use in their evaluation? I have a hard time imagining how SAT scores are judged where, say, the composite is ok but the section scores are split high and low.

Last year my oldest DD has a top tier LAC review her application prior to submission. Though her composite ACT score was in line with their published ACT range, they recommended that she bring up her ACT Math score to be more in line with the rest of her scores. She did bring it up a point or two but it was still a couple of points lower than her composite score. That may be why she was wait listed to that school.

[*LC]

Thanks for starting this thread, OP, even though your student wasn't interested in the school. If you have a younger student who is interested in the school, you will have helpful guidance in this thread on what to do different next time. When an admissions counselor from a highly-selective school school spoke at my child's public school, she said to read optional as required. Of course, a student, particularly one not really interested in the school, is welcome to chance it with optional requirements. There have definitely been posts about college acceptances here where a student was admitted to a school despite not meeting optional requests and/or homeschool requirements. Sometimes the gamble pays off.  

 

I am not sure where people are getting the idea that your student's scores were too low. University of Rochester is one of the schools that do not publish its common data set. The fact sheets shows only the "mid-50% range" of the class of 2021. 

 

SAT Evidence-Based Reading & Writing 630-710 SAT Math 650-770

 

I added the lowest of the two and the highest of two to make a "composite" score.

 

So, if those numbers were composite the "mid-50% range" would be 1280 to 1480. Your daughter is right in the middle of the the mid-50% range for this year's freshman class. Maybe this year's numbers are much higher, but your daughter's numbers were right in the middle of this year's class. 

 

On the website collegedata, it gives these numbers for enrolled Rochester freshman. (No clue how these numbers are determined.)

Average GPA 3.80 SAT Math 697 average 
650-760 range of middle 50% SAT Critical Reading 641 average 
590-690 range of middle 50%

 

So if I add those together for a composite, I get 1,338 for average SAT, which is lower than your daughter's scores. 

 

PrepScholar.com says, "There's no absolute SAT requirement at University of Rochester, but they really want to see at least a 1320 to have a chance at being considered."

 

Congrats on your daughter's acceptance/scholarship to her #1 school. That is great and all she needs. If she had been admitted to Rochester with good aid, she may have been conflicted on which school to attend. She may have felt she had to go there, because she thought  you, as a Rochester alum, wanted her to attend your school. When my oldest visited my school, she later admitted that she thought she would have to say she liked it, because I liked it.

 

 

 

 

[*LC]

UC states that the typical successful applicant scores between 1900 and 2200 on the SAT, so she should have done any extras with her score to increase her chances. They also state an interview "can certainly help your chances at admission."  

 

 

 

It is going to be impossible for the school to have many successful applicants in the years to come, since the "new" SAT is only out of 1600.  :001_smile:  To have scores between 1900-2200 would mean taking the old test. The class of 2018 would have had to take the test before March of their sophomore year to be a successful applicant.  :huh:

[wapiti]

FWIW, I would avoid collegedata and prepscholar where accuracy of numbers are concerned.  There are still issues with new vs old scores.  We'll have a much better idea when the numbers come out for class of 2022.

 

The fact sheets shows only the "mid-50% range" of the class of 2021. 

 

SAT Evidence-Based Reading & Writing 630-710 SAT Math 650-770

 

I added the lowest of the two and the highest of two to make a "composite" score.

 

Thanks - I hadn't seen the fact sheet.  This is where my question comes in about composite vs section scores - unlike averages, I'm skeptical of combining reported section scores for 25th and 75th percentiles to come up with a middle 50 range.

 

Looking at these ranges and making up an example for 1380, suppose a student had, say, a 740 EBRW and a 660 math or the reverse, 760 math and 620 EBRW.  Or to be even more dramatic, a 780 in one and a 600 in the other.  Assuming such student is shooting for a major in the strong area as opposed to the weaker one, what do admissions counselors think about the scores?  Is having one section below the 25th percentile and one above the 75th a huge detriment or does it all average out?

 

 

Edited March 17, 2018 by wapiti

[8filltheheart]

I am not sure where people are getting the idea that your student's scores were too low.

I actually think the issue is that the things not done are not optional. They are required for homeschoolers.

 

I was typing in a hurry. My comment about test scores was meant to be connected to being accepted without outside of home courses.

[luuknam]

I am not sure where people are getting the idea that your student's scores were too low. 

 

So, if those numbers were composite the "mid-50% range" would be 1280 to 1480. Your daughter is right in the middle of the the mid-50% range for this year's freshman class. Maybe this year's numbers are much higher, but your daughter's numbers were right in the middle of this year's class. 

 

 

I think most people were saying that they were low to make it a safety. I thought that to be a safety you'd want to be in the top 25% or maybe even a bit higher, not right in the middle. 

[Corraleno]

I am not sure where people are getting the idea that your student's scores were too low. University of Rochester is one of the schools that do not publish its common data set. The fact sheets shows only the "mid-50% range" of the class of 2021. 

 

SAT Evidence-Based Reading & Writing 630-710 SAT Math 650-770

 

I added the lowest of the two and the highest of two to make a "composite" score.

 

So, if those numbers were composite the "mid-50% range" would be 1280 to 1480. Your daughter is right in the middle of the the mid-50% range for this year's freshman class. Maybe this year's numbers are much higher, but your daughter's numbers were right in the middle of this year's class.

It's not that the stats were too low for admission, it's that they were not high enough for someone who showed no interest and skipped some of the requirements.

 

I don't think that adding the bottom 25% E+M scores and the top 25% E+M scores provides an accurate estimate of the middle 50th percentile. In many cases where one score was low, it's likely that the other score was higher, so the 25th percentile composite would be higher than lowest 25% E + lowest 25% M.

 

At any rate, UR themselves listed "97th percentile" as the average test score, which is 1430-1440 SAT or 32 ACT. A student with test scores below that average needs to bring other things to the table, which the OP's DD did not do.

[GoodGrief]

Wow, that's a lot of extra requirements for homeschoolers! I was especially surprised by the "peer review" requirement, which I've never seen anywhere else. Is that supposed to prove that the homeschooler is at least marginally "socialized" and hasn't been locked in a basement for the last 12 years?  :blink:

 

Dartmouth has an optional peer recommendation as part of its application.

[snowbeltmom]

FWIW, I would avoid collegedata and prepscholar where accuracy of numbers are concerned.  There are still issues with new vs old scores.  We'll have a much better idea when the numbers come out for class of 2022.

 

 

Thanks - I hadn't seen the fact sheet.  This is where my question comes in about composite vs section scores - unlike averages, I'm skeptical of combining reported section scores for 25th and 75th percentiles to come up with a middle 50 range.

 

Looking at these ranges and making up an example for 1380, suppose a student had, say, a 740 EBRW and a 660 math or the reverse, 760 math and 620 EBRW.  Or to be even more dramatic, a 780 in one and a 600 in the other.  Assuming such student is shooting for a major in the strong area as opposed to the weaker one, what do admissions counselors think about the scores?  Is having one section below the 25th percentile and one above the 75th a huge detriment or does it all average out?

I have some experience with how some admissions offices evaluate an applicant based on SAT/ACT scores from going through the recruiting process with my son. It seemed that with the SAT (this was the old test), the Reading and Math sections were looked at separately and the writing section was ignored. My son was told that admissions was looking for above 700 in each subsection, and these scores were more important than the composite.

 

I have a friend whose son is going through the process this year, so this info is second-hand. She said that the coaches are recommending that their recruits take the ACT. The coaches have told her that based on the scores that they are seeing for the new SAT, that the belief that the new SAT is easier is wrong. They believe that the new SAT is more difficult. However, until the admissions offices get new official concordance tables from the College Board, they will contiune to concord using the current tables. Recruits that were not able to get past admissions with the new SAT scores, were able to meet the thresholds with the ACT.

 

I don't understand how the College Board blundered the concordance tables so badly. I feel bad for the 2018 graduates. I hope this gets figured out by next year, but to be on the safe side, I have signed my D up to take the ACT next month.

[wapiti]

The coaches have told her that based on the scores that they are seeing for the new SAT, that the belief that the new SAT is easier is wrong. They believe that the new SAT is more difficult. However, until the admissions offices get new official concordance tables from the College Board, they will contiune to concord using the current tables. Recruits that were not able to get past admissions with the new SAT scores, were able to meet the thresholds with the ACT.

 

I don't understand how the College Board blundered the concordance tables so badly. I feel bad for the 2018 graduates. I hope this gets figured out by next year, but to be on the safe side, I have signed my D up to take the ACT next month.

 

This is my impression as well and the classes of 2017 and 2018 really got the short end of the stick.  Hopefully the new SAT-ACT table will be out this summer as promised, though I doubt there will ever be a redo of the Old-New tables.  Although it seems that many selective schools evaluated the pools of SAT and ACT submitters separately, the inaccurate 2016 tables themselves influenced where kids applied and which scores they chose to send, a self-fulfilling prophecy.  Worst of all, most state university automatic scholarship levels are currently set based on the bad 2016 SAT-ACT table.

 

To complicate things further, it seems that the reading section was made intentionally more difficult starting last fall, moving the goalposts yet again.  Maybe that was necessary, maybe not, but it makes scores even more difficult to compare.  I hope the new SAT-ACT table development study did not begin until last fall.  While in theory the predetermined curve should account for that change in difficulty, based on my junior's scores on the previously-administered practice tests vs the tests from last fall, there was a significant score difference in that section.  Unfortunately, the speed required for the ACT is not the best fit in our house - sticking with the SAT and giving it another go at the end of the summer.

Edited March 18, 2018 by wapiti

[katilac]

It is going to be impossible for the school to have many successful applicants in the years to come, since the "new" SAT is only out of 1600.  :001_smile:  To have scores between 1900-2200 would mean taking the old test. The class of 2018 would have had to take the test before March of their sophomore year to be a successful applicant.  :huh:

 

Apparently, the university hasn't updated all parts of their site to reflect the new scoring yet. I wouldn't catch that, I'm an ACT mom  :)

 

The most important bit was probably not doing the things that are optional for other applicants but required for homeschoolers. My oldest did get into at least one school without the "requirement" of two subject tests, but I think it's because had so many DE hours. There's no real equivalent for a required interview. I'd also say the interview is less 'optional' and more 'highly recommended' for standard applicants. 

 

"Interviews can certainly help your chances of being offered admission. If you wish to compete for scholarships, you should definitely interview."

 

I do think the overall sentiment of the OP is correct: our kids are expected to be more prepared and higher-achieving than we were, and a lot of colleges have made it harder to gain admission. 

[lisabees]

Agreeing with the rest. Interviews are NEVER optional in my book.

 

 

DS was accepted to UR last year. I don't recall him "needing" a peer recommender, but he did have a letter from a 25-year-old author and friend who interviewed ds for his new book. Hmmm...

 

I think UR, like many schools, likes to feel the love. :) 

 

[katilac]

 

I think UR, like many schools, likes to feel the love. :)

 

Which I can understand because feeling the love has been important to us from the other side of the fence. Schools that made my kids feel wanted definitely inspired positive feelings. 

[catz]

Yes, I think many of these schools try to read interest and hoop jumping as a way to get better yield.  Especially in cases where it is obvious the school may be a safety choice for a kid.  I've heard so many stories like this.  

[Kassia]

nm!   

 

Edited March 18, 2018 by Kassia

[clb3259]

 

Looking at these ranges and making up an example for 1380, suppose a student had, say, a 740 EBRW and a 660 math or the reverse, 760 math and 620 EBRW.  Or to be even more dramatic, a 780 in one and a 600 in the other.  Assuming such student is shooting for a major in the strong area as opposed to the weaker one, what do admissions counselors think about the scores?  Is having one section below the 25th percentile and one above the 75th a huge detriment or does it all average out?

 

 

That dramatic scenario is exactly my daughter's: SAT 780/600! She intends to pursue a humanities-based/language major on a path to law or education. Her struggle with math skills is actually not as much of a handicap as is her processing speed. As a little girl struggling with some sensory processing issues, she'd tested <30th percentile for processing speed. She never was able to finish all the problems in the math portion of the SAT, even after taking courses and reading books to employ time-saving strategy tips and such. We wished more people would just celebrate the 780, but that's just not how it works for most schools. Hope College has produced an amazing scholarship because she submitted a portfolio for a creative writing project--now they understand her area of brilliance. We're so grateful for the opportunity to tell a better story about her giftedness and potential!

 

I completely understand now that opting not to interview or send another recommendation were likely more at play than anything that could be construed as a judgment that's unfavorable to homeschoolers from UR. Theirs was a free app for her because of the leadership award they'd given, and she probably pursued it more out of nostalgia for me than anything else. My daughter applied to 18 schools (!) searching for good merit possibilities, so the interview and additional recommendation were just exhausting requests from a school she wasn't really pursuing.

 

Yet, my other point--aside from the surprise--is that she is so much brighter than I was. I didn't just get accepted to UR--in that first year, I was placed in an "elite" group of Wilson Scholars who were considered the most promising in our class, based on our high school careers. I was a rock star in my little high school, yet my education was full of holes and lacking depth. Yes, we didn't really allow UR to get to know her and determine her qualifications, but the irony is not lost on me that this school that gave me my first true taste of classical learning in freshman Western Civ. seminars determined that my eminently qualified daughter doesn't belong. I really have no hard feelings--UR is a great school! It's just good to keep these judgments in perspective.

[lewelma]

 determined that my eminently qualified daughter doesn't belong.

 

We are about to get 4 more decisions, and I don't think that a rejection will be an indication that the school thinks my ds doesn't belong there.  It seems to me that they have way more qualified applicants than spaces, and they are concerned about yield, so they just do the logical thing and pick the subset of qualified applicants that they think will say 'yes.' 

Edited March 18, 2018 by lewelma

[catz]

We are about to get 4 more decisions, and I don't think that a rejection will be an indication that the school thinks my ds doesn't belong there.  It seems to me that they have way more qualified applicants than spaces, and they are concerned about yield, so they just do the logical thing and pick the subset of qualified applicants that they think will say 'yes.' 

 

I think this is a really good way to think about this.  Having kids that audition for competitive music and theater roles has been helpful for perspective in our case.  

 

When directors cast a show, a bunch of people, in some cases hundreds, show up and casting a show is a bit like solving a puzzle the best you can where you have a bunch of similar extra pieces that aren't going to fit.  Often when not having necessarily a ton of time to over analyze it.  I can imagine building a freshman class by an admissions department may be similar.  I can imagine having multiple indicators that a school is an actual contender for a candidate would be a selling point for that student when you have a number students with similar profiles.   

 

It's a great life skill not to take this kind of rejection personally.  

[swimmermom3]

Maybe they are being more careful now, but I also wonder if they are looking for a show of interest in the school. Maybe since she didn't do the optional things, they thought her interest was low? (Has she visited in person & was it a registered visit where they would know she came?) I think more schools are paying attention to that kind of thing now.

 

My son's university is known for rejecting students who are applying to the school as a "safety."

 

They want strong students who really want to be there and there are numerous highly competitive schools in the area. If the student lists that they are also applying to Georgetown vs. applying to George Washington, then it's probably a sure bet that the university is not a top choice.

[omd21]

My son's university is known for rejecting students who are applying to the school as a "safety."

 

They want strong students who really want to be there and there are numerous highly competitive schools in the area. If the student lists that they are also applying to Georgetown vs. applying to George Washington, then it's probably a sure bet that the university is not a top choice.

How do schools know what other colleges you are applying to? Newbie here. :)

[Kathy in Richmond]

That dramatic scenario is exactly my daughter's: SAT 780/600! She intends to pursue a humanities-based/language major on a path to law or education. Her struggle with math skills is actually not as much of a handicap as is her processing speed. As a little girl struggling with some sensory processing issues, she'd tested <30th percentile for processing speed. She never was able to finish all the problems in the math portion of the SAT, even after taking courses and reading books to employ time-saving strategy tips and such. We wished more people would just celebrate the 780, but that's just not how it works for most schools. Hope College has produced an amazing scholarship because she submitted a portfolio for a creative writing project--now they understand her area of brilliance. We're so grateful for the opportunity to tell a better story about her giftedness and potential!

 

I completely understand now that opting not to interview or send another recommendation were likely more at play than anything that could be construed as a judgment that's unfavorable to homeschoolers from UR. Theirs was a free app for her because of the leadership award they'd given, and she probably pursued it more out of nostalgia for me than anything else. My daughter applied to 18 schools (!) searching for good merit possibilities, so the interview and additional recommendation were just exhausting requests from a school she wasn't really pursuing.

 

Yet, my other point--aside from the surprise--is that she is so much brighter than I was. I didn't just get accepted to UR--in that first year, I was placed in an "elite" group of Wilson Scholars who were considered the most promising in our class, based on our high school careers. I was a rock star in my little high school, yet my education was full of holes and lacking depth. Yes, we didn't really allow UR to get to know her and determine her qualifications, but the irony is not lost on me that this school that gave me my first true taste of classical learning in freshman Western Civ. seminars determined that my eminently qualified daughter doesn't belong. I really have no hard feelings--UR is a great school! It's Wajust good to keep these judgments in perspective.

 

Waving hi from another Wilson Scholar - Class of 1978!!

 

Btw, do you know when the program ended? I haven't heard anything about it in a long time...

 

I tried to interest my kids in UR without any luck. They just did not want to follow in Mom or Dad's footsteps. :laugh: At least your daughter humored you with an application.  :) 

 

I'm sorry that your daughter didn't have a better result, but I'm glad that she has a wonderful offer from Hope!! And that she likes it better anyway!

 

I suppose that UR just sensed her lack of interest when she didn't do the interview, etc.

 

UR has a long-time tradition of being friendly to interested homeschoolers. They were actually one of the reasons that we took the homeschooling plunge back in 1999. I'd read about a local homeschooling family here in Richmond whose daughter had a good experience being accepted there without lots of outside validation or testing besides SAT and a bit of dual enrollment. I've always respected UR for looking at outside-the-box kids.

[katilac]

 My daughter applied to 18 schools (!) searching for good merit possibilities, so the interview and additional recommendation were just exhausting requests from a school she wasn't really pursuing.

 

I didn't just get accepted to UR--in that first year, I was placed in an "elite" group of Wilson Scholars who were considered the most promising in our class, based on our high school careers. 

 

Yes, application fatigue is real. 

 

And yes, I definitely think expectations are much higher for our kids. They have to have passions and experience and a carefully considered plan. You can get into plenty of schools without all of that, of course, but I do think that merit scholarships have become far more competitive. 

 

 

When directors cast a show, a bunch of people, in some cases hundreds, show up and casting a show is a bit like solving a puzzle the best you can where you have a bunch of similar extra pieces that aren't going to fit.   

 

Yes, very much like casting a show or building a sports team. All of the applicants for first base might be amazing, but you still need a shortstop. 

 

How do schools know what other colleges you are applying to? Newbie here. :)

 

It will often come out in an interview, either for the school itself or for a scholarship. My dd was asked in a scholarship interview if the school was her first choice. When she said she would love to go there, and it was definitely top two, one of the interviewers asked, "Is the other one XYZ University?" 

 

With older dd, I seem to vaguely recall that one application asked her to list where else she was applying. I can't remember if she actually applied there or just looked over the application. 

[GoodGrief]

It will often come out in an interview, either for the school itself or for a scholarship. My dd was asked in a scholarship interview if the school was her first choice. When she said she would love to go there, and it was definitely top two, one of the interviewers asked, "Is the other one XYZ University?" 

 

With older dd, I seem to vaguely recall that one application asked her to list where else she was applying. I can't remember if she actually applied there or just looked over the application. 

 

That was our experience as well. The schools might ask in an interview, or during a scholarship weekend. There may have been one or two that asked in the application itself.

 

My daughter would name a couple schools that were similar to the inquiring school when the question arose. She did reveal in a couple of interviews with very selective schools that she had been admitted early to Princeton, which may have been a mistake. There's no way to know whether that was a factor, of course, but those were the only two schools were she was waitlisted or rejected entirely.

 

[omd21]

It will often come out in an interview, either for the school itself or for a scholarship. My dd was asked in a scholarship interview if the school was her first choice. When she said she would love to go there, and it was definitely top two, one of the interviewers asked, "Is the other one XYZ University?" 

 

With older dd, I seem to vaguely recall that one application asked her to list where else she was applying. I can't remember if she actually applied there or just looked over the application. 

 

 

That was our experience as well. The schools might ask in an interview, or during a scholarship weekend. There may have been one or two that asked in the application itself.

 

My daughter would name a couple schools that were similar to the inquiring school when the question arose. She did reveal in a couple of interviews with very selective schools that she had been admitted early to Princeton, which may have been a mistake. There's no way to know whether that was a factor, of course, but those were the only two schools were she was waitlisted or rejected entirely.

 

 

I had no idea. This sounds so unfair to me, since so many kids depend on aid to make a final decision.

[Arch at Home]

It will often come out in an interview, either for the school itself or for a scholarship. My dd was asked in a scholarship interview if the school was her first choice. When she said she would love to go there, and it was definitely top two, one of the interviewers asked, "Is the other one XYZ University?"

 

With older dd, I seem to vaguely recall that one application asked her to list where else she was applying. I can't remember if she actually applied there or just looked over the application.

Directly asking seems brazen to me. I realize there are a few one and done applicants but, in this day and age, most students are applying to multiple schools particularly if the schools/scholarships are competitive.

[lisabees]

Directly asking seems brazen to me. I realize there are a few one and done applicants but, in this day and age, most students are applying to multiple schools particularly if the schools/scholarships are competitive.

 

I don't recall any of my kids saying that an interviewer asked where else they were applying, although we did have one who asked for their SAT score. I was floored by that one!

 

I've heard admissions officers say that 80% of their applicant pool could be a great fit, have the stats, etc. but the school can only accept a tiny percentage of them. There is so much beyond stats for many, many schools.

 

My dd said recently that it's hard not to take rejections personally when they ask you to put yourself out there in such a personal, vulnerable way. 

 

OP, I am glad your dd has found a great fit in Hope College! 

[MarkT]

My son's university is known for rejecting students who are applying to the school as a "safety."

 

They want strong students who really want to be there and there are numerous highly competitive schools in the area. If the student lists that they are also applying to Georgetown vs. applying to George Washington, then it's probably a sure bet that the university is not a top choice.

Any admissions folks here that could chime in on this?

 

Since they closed the FAFSA "hole" then how would they know?

see 

http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/670848-yield-protection/

 

This is a definitely a privacy issue that should be addressed if other colleges can get this information!

[GoodGrief]

I had no idea. This sounds so unfair to me, since so many kids depend on aid to make a final decision.

 

They are looking to give scholarships to those who are likely to attend if offered the scholarship, which makes sense. But the applicant does not need to reveal their entire list of potential schools just because the interviewer or application is asking. Use discretion. There are some applicants who think that playing schools against each other will result in a bigger offer for them, because they appear highly desirable. Not a wise idea.

[GoodGrief]

Directly asking seems brazen to me. I realize there are a few one and done applicants but, in this day and age, most students are applying to multiple schools particularly if the schools/scholarships are competitive.

 

The schools that are concerned about yield want to feel confident that they are the applicant's top choice. It's a smart question on their part, but puts the applicant in an awkward position.

[Rebecca]

My son also had conversation about other schools he applied to come up in almost every interview (he had five- so at least 4 out of the 5)  he had. I do think, unfortunately, they are looking to gauge interest. I think it is especially unfortunate in our situation when everything depends on scholarship and financial aid. I will say that it is a "game" I do not know how adept he was/is at playing. We tried our best.

 

The wait, now, is hard.

 

[catz]

Ugh - it so obnoxious asking about other schools in an interview like that.  So uncomfortable for a student.  And honestly, when college is so expensive it shouldn't be surprising to schools that kids and their families may need to play the game to see what comes in affordable.   My kid has been asked when trying out music teachers.  Which is obnoxious too! 

 

Note to self - encourage son to say in interviews "All the other schools I applied to are lame.  Truly nothing compared to this bastion of higher learning".  :lol:

 

In actuality, we now know to have a couple peer schools in the back pocket to mention when asked this question.  So silly.  :thumbdown:

[Woodland Mist Academy]

 

Note to self - encourage son to say in interviews "All the other schools I applied to are lame.  Truly nothing compared to this bastion of higher learning".  :lol:

 

 

:laugh:

[Tsuga]

Any admissions folks here that could chime in on this?

 

Since they closed the FAFSA "hole" then how would they know?

see 

http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/670848-yield-protection/

 

This is a definitely a privacy issue that should be addressed if other colleges can get this information!

 

I didn't know they closed the hole. It definitely used to be there in the open FAFSA data. The students filled it out and signed off on it themselves. Last time I worked on this was in 2015 (2014-15 academic year, FAFSAs just coming in from 15-16). We had that data as researchers and while we could not provide specific information per student, we were asked to provide "high potential" lists that could be based on propensity models that included that data.

 

The National Student Clearinghouse MAY have that data. I don't have access to that any more, but they did have extensive student data that was reported to them. Security was a huge deal to the NSC, as was integrity, so if this was controversial, I don't think they would have shared the column on purpose but people might be deriving it somehow.

 

It's worth noting that colleges aren't going line by line per student. They have analysts and data scientists that build models and assign propensity scores to individuals based on other factors. Like it might be that no other student with these scores, this much money, and this zip code, has ever accepted to Rochester. They don't need to know where you actually applied. They can guess that you did. Date of application also goes in. 

 

I used to build those models. Nobody got individual student data--we only validated it based on test cases--but as a CC it only affected advertising, not admission. They wanted us to put risk in there but I was strongly opposed as I felt it was just one more marker put on already poor kids. If they're poor, give them money to eat and get to school--if you can't do that, risk modeling will do nothing to affect outcomes. But knowing that I could do that as an analyst makes me think that places like Rochester can DEFINITELY do that with what you give them in the FAFSA, CSS, and application. Probably they can even bring in essay themes via textual analysis.

 

Edit: tl;dr here is propensity modeling doesn't need data points of where you applied. The statistical models assign you a number based on past performance of people like you. Given enough data, they can guess. And while it's imperfect, it saves them enough that they do it. 

Edited March 19, 2018 by Tsuga

[katilac]

 

Note to self - encourage son to say in interviews "All the other schools I applied to are lame.  Truly nothing compared to this bastion of higher learning".  :lol:

 

 

Except if they're really positive you plan to go there no matter what, they're like, hmm, don't need to offer this guy the scholarship . . .