Pre-calculus or college calculus

[mom@shiloh]

My ds, 16, is finishing up Algebra II.  Career-wise, I think he's heading into either engineering or accounting.  We could do pre-calc at home next year or he could take calculus as an early college credit the next year.  Would pre-calc be a good idea before doing a college calculus class or is it a better use of his time to just go right into the college class? This is new territory for me.  Any suggestions?  

[EKS]

He should have precalculus before taking calculus.  

[FriedClams]

He should have precalculus before taking calculus.

10000% agree. It would be like skipping algebra 1 before 2.

[katilac]

Precalculus, although if he likes math and used a strong Algebra 2 program he might be able to cover it quickly. Is he currently a junior? 

 

When you say he is finishing up, do you mean he will finish by the end of this school year, or is he actually almost finished now? If he's almost finished and wants to take calc next year, he can just slide straight into precalc as soon as he's done with Algebra 2. Depending on how long it takes him, he could be ready for calc in fall or spring. He should only do this if he can do it without rushing. 

 

If he does wind up doing calc next year, he may or may not want that credit to transfer. Many students take calc in high school and repeat in college. It lets them cement their understanding, allows for the fact that calc at their specific college might be harder, and hopefully earns them a good grade in a tough major. I will say that my dd, a math minor at a STEM school, didn't start calc till college and did fine. She got a B in calc 1, a C in calc 2, a B in calc 3, and so far has an A in linear algebra. There were many engineering majors with lower grades, lol, so imo taking it twice is an option but not a necessity. 

[regentrude]

He needs to take precalculus  before calculus.

 

Most colleges have placement tests for math; at our school, a student without precalc would not place into calculus.

Edited March 14, 2018 by regentrude

[katilac]

He needs to take precalculus  before calculus.

 

Most colleges have placement tests for math; at our school, a student without precalc would not place into calculus.

 

Beware of students who test well: my dd placed into calculus before she finished Algebra 2. She didn't take it then, but I can see how someone who got those results would just assume they should sign up for calculus. 

[Aloha2U]

Nevermind

Edited March 15, 2018 by NCAmusings

[JanetC]

My kiddo placed into calculus at community college with just AOPS intro to algebra and intro to geometry.

I made her do a quickie precalc over the summer, but other than trig it came super easy to her, and she did fine in calculus. That being said, trig remains a weakness, although we reviewed it all again for the math 2 subject test and she uses it in physics, etc. She knows just enough to get by.

[kokotg]

If he really wants to do calculus next year and he's a strong math student, it might be possible to do trig/pre-calc this spring/summer and be ready in the fall. DS16 did a compressed algebra 2/pre-calc this way sophomore year and he's doing very well in BC calc now (and, in a more dated example, my husband self studied pre-calc summer before HIS junior year). Whether this is something he wants/needs to do just depends on what his goals are post high school (and what grade he's in right now--sophomore or junior).

[Starr]

We spend a lot of time with college students and one of our local universities is an engineerings school. There are many stories of students not prepared for college level calculus even though they have taken pre-calc and calc in high school. Don't push ahead until everything is well covered. 

[amyx4]

My mathy teen only did Algebra I, Geometry and Algebra II at home.

 

Then he moved onto dual enrollment at the community college taking College Algebra and then Trig/Pre-Calc during Junior year.

 

Then dual enrollment at the StateU taking Calc I and Calc II during Senior year.

 

That worked for us because there's some grant money here for dual enrollment (not need based)

Edited March 14, 2018 by amyx4

[regentrude]

My kiddo placed into calculus at community college with just AOPS intro to algebra and intro to geometry.

I made her do a quickie precalc over the summer, but other than trig it came super easy to her, and she did fine in calculus. That being said, trig remains a weakness, although we reviewed it all again for the math 2 subject test and she uses it in physics, etc. She knows just enough to get by.

 

Lack of trig will become a problem, at the latest in calc 2, when they need trig substitutions.

 

 

[regentrude]

If he is interested in engineering, I would carefully evaluate the rigor of the college calculus class he is considering. Not all classes are created equal.

It may be a good idea to retake the entire calc sequence at the school he will be attending for his undergrad.

 

[mom@shiloh]

Thanks for your replies.

 

He is a sophomore this year. He'll finish Algebra II in the next month and we will be taking the summer off from academics.  If he took the college class, he would take it from the same college that he plans to attend for his undergraduate degree.  Based on your replies, I'm leaning towards doing pre-calc at home next year and then having him do calculus as an early college credit for his senior year.  

[Roadrunner]

If he is interested in engineering, I would carefully evaluate the rigor of the college calculus class he is considering. Not all classes are created equal.

It may be a good idea to retake the entire calc sequence at the school he will be attending for his undergrad.

How would we evaluate CC upper math courses? We have some time before facing this issue but once we ran out of AOPS in a near future, local CC seems the only option. Should we reconsider taking linear algebra, differential equations or multivariable Calc at a CC? Would it make sense to take them at a CC and then retake them once in college? What would be another option?

[mom@shiloh]

The quality of instruction and the academic rigor in CC varies widely.  My dh is a college professor and he's had kids completely fail his courses and then take the class at CC and ace it. On the other hand, there are areas where our CC is very strong.  I think you'd have to ask lots of questions locally to determine the quality of your CC.  

[amyx4]

Thanks for your replies.

 

He is a sophomore this year. He'll finish Algebra II in the next month and we will be taking the summer off from academics.  If he took the college class, he would take it from the same college that he plans to attend for his undergraduate degree.  Based on your replies, I'm leaning towards doing pre-calc at home next year and then having him do calculus as an early college credit for his senior year.  

 

If he's able to take Calc I during high school at the same college that he intents to enroll in then he'll be fine.

 

The concern some students would have is taking Calc I at the community college and then taking Calc II at the StateU.

[regentrude]

How would we evaluate CC upper math courses? We have some time before facing this issue but once we ran out of AOPS in a near future, local CC seems the only option. Should we reconsider taking linear algebra, differential equations or multivariable Calc at a CC? Would it make sense to take them at a CC and then retake them once in college? What would be another option?

 

I am not so much concerned about the upper level classes beyond calc 3. Those are only taken by strong math students aiming at STEM majors. if the CC offers them, they will very likely be fine.

It's calc I and II that have the potential to be the problem; some CCs offer easy calc courses which the weaker math students take who can't hack calc at their actual university. (We have students take the "easy" calc at CC so they don;t have to take the more rigorous calc at our university.) The existence of transfer agreements does not mean classes are equivalent.

 

One way to check would be to ask at at your local university how students fare who have taken those classes at the CC. Profs will tell you whether they recommend taking the classes at this particular CC, or whether they are apprehensive.

Edited March 14, 2018 by regentrude

[JanetC]

Lack of trig will become a problem, at the latest in calc 2, when they need trig substitutions.

She didn't completely lack trig (like I said, we did the quickie precalc), it just wasn't as strong as I would have liked. She's in multivariable calculus so she's survived.

[luuknam]

She didn't completely lack trig (like I said, we did the quickie precalc), it just wasn't as strong as I would have liked. She's in multivariable calculus so she's survived.

 

 

As someone who's skipped one year of integrated math (which included some trig), 'survival' is not really what I'd make my goal. I even got pretty good grades, but in retrospect, I really should've worked through that entire math book and learned it thoroughly, because surviving, even with decent grades, is sucky compared to really knowing the material. 

[Lanny]

IMO one should not skip Pre Calc.  Also, IMO, one should not skip Pre Algebra.  There are a lot of students who have had so-called Calc courses in High School, who get into university and find that they are really unprepared.  Better to have a solid foundation and then progress.

 

If someone is going into a STEM Major, the university will probably want to teach Calc the way they want it done, and not the way some AP or CC class teaches it. 

 

That's the advice I gave to my DD and I think that is not a bad way to go.  Take it low and slow and get a solid education...

 

ETA: If your DS is thinking about Engineering, he will need to be rock solid with Algebra, Calc, etc.  Pre Calc will include Trig and other interesting things that might prove useful.

Edited March 14, 2018 by Lanny

[JanetC]

but in retrospect, I really should've worked through that entire math book and learned it thoroughly, because surviving, even with decent grades, is sucky compared to really knowing the material.

Perhaps, but that ship has sailed.

 

Truly, all the work she did through AOPS has taught her how to tough things out until you get it even when something's not immediately clear. Her natural stubbornness is also a factor, I'm sure.

[luuknam]

Perhaps, but that ship has sailed.

 

Truly, all the work she did through AOPS has taught her how to tough things out until you get it even when something's not immediately clear. Her natural stubbornness is also a factor, I'm sure.

 

 

Right, I just meant it as part of the advice for OP. I wouldn't skip precalc, even though it is possible to do fine in calc without it. The only situation in which I'd recommend skipping it is if it's between skipping precalc and doing calc, and doing no math at all. In that case, calc without precalc beats no math at all. 

 

(for clarity, I do think that it can sometimes make sense to just do precalc over the summer or w/e... I'm not saying you have to spend a whole semester or whole year on it - just that I wouldn't skip it)

[Lanny]

I feel strongly that Pre-Calculus should not be skipped. I also feel strongly that a student who did not take Pre-Calculus, but took Calculus instead, might be on very shaky ground with regard to forging ahead with higher Mathematics.  And, I suspect (and believe) that many universities are skeptical of the Calculus courses completed by many High School students.

 

This URL is on the web site of Texas Tech University. Note that Pre-Calculus is on their list, but that Calculus is not on their list. Approximately 1/3 down the page under "Mathematics" and then "Advanced Math Course"

 

http://www.depts.ttu.edu/admissions/apply/status/first_freshmen/

• Advanced Math Course
  • Options include Precalculus, AQR, AP Statistics & Engineering Mathematics

 

[JanetC]

I think not seeing calculus on the minimum courses for admissions is different from not accepting calculus from kids who have the opportunity to take it.