If you received your "last written warning" at work, would it be better to quit?

[DeainUSA]

 He sounds miserable.  The employer is not happy.  It's crazy to have this type of job and sleep.  There seems to be no solution whatsoever.  Of course he should quit.

[Katy]

...

 

If you think this is reasonable, I challenge you to go to sleep tonight sometime after 10 pm.

 

Then get up at 4:30 am. Get dressed in pants and t-shirt. Leave all devices, books, etc, in your bedroom.

...

 

Why would he need to sleep after 10 if he's getting up at 4:30?  That kind of sleep deprivation could lead anyone into a dangerous situation. He should be in bed by 8 or 9.

[catz]

You seem defensive to me in most of your follow up posts. That it's okay because he's bored, an easy sleeper, its safe because no one is there, etc. It's not okay. Sleeping on the job is not okay.  

​

​I'm going out an a limb and saying it's never okay to sleep on the job. Especially when you are a GURARD. He's an adult. You stay up and do the work. If he can't be responsible for that, then yes it's time to quit. 

 

:iagree: There is just no excuse at all to fall asleep and for that to be ok as a life guard.  He may say he would wake up, but I quiet single swimmer could slip in.  I just don't think there is any way to know if that wouldn't happen.  Accidents happen.  This just doesn't sound like the job for him, which is totally fine.  It's great he has some other opportunities.   There's absolutely no need to be defensive about it.  

 

That said, it sounds like this is not a good employer.  A single lifeguard on duty for 8 hours with no breaks, when it should only be 6 is ground enough for quitting.   I'm pretty sure our state has tighter laws on how lifeguards operate.  And in our area, it isn't unusual to see the same lifeguards pacing for hours.  

[*LC]

Why would he need to sleep after 10 if he's getting up at 4:30? That kind of sleep deprivation could lead anyone into a dangerous situation. He should be in bed by 8 or 9.

Because he is 18. He has two jobs. He may have school or other responsibilities. Going to sleep at 10, will give you 6.5 hours of sleep before the 5 am shift. I think that is normal for a lot of people especially teens.

[*LC]

OP

 

I don't think you sound defensive at all. The hive is great at giving suggestions and solving problems. However, the hive also has a tendency to go beyond the scope of the question and ask more questions or answer questions not asked. Sometimes/often times this is helpful, because it helps the OP see a different option. Other times, like this one, going beyond the orginal question is not helpful, because every time a question is asked/suggestion have to say it is not allowed by your son's employer. (I guess standing/pacing for 8 hours might be allowed, but I don't think that by itself would keep a sleepy person awake. I say might, because my oldest's lifeguarding job required her to sit in the lifeguard chair, so no pacing.

 

I don't think this job is right for any one.

[Joules]

 

I don't think this job is right for any one.

 

I have to agree.  Having a fatigued lifeguard is worse than not having one at all.  It's a kind of job that requires hyperawareness, thus the guidelines to prevent fatigue.

 

Truck drivers are a similar profession.  You wouldn't want one to drive 8 hours with only potty breaks (no resting at the deli or talking to the other patrons), no radio, no audiobooks, no CB, no cell phone, no pull off and close your eyes for a few minutes.  Just continuous, completely boring hyperawareness.  (I do realize that the break requirements for truck drivers are way less than they should be for complete safety!  I'm just commented on what we would want to see for our own safety being on the road with them....and what I would want in a lifeguard that is taking care of me and my loved ones.)

[Joules]

Here's me showing my paranoid side...You might also want to think about him quitting for liability reasons.  Let's say someone has a heart attack in the pool and dies.  Even if there was no way to save them, the police, insurance companies (of the individual and the facility), and the family will be looking at where to place possible blame.  His work record will come into the record, and everyone will assume he fell asleep or was inattentive.  There's no way that ends well for him, personally and possibly financially.  

[Scarlett]

Here's me showing my paranoid side...You might also want to think about him quitting for liability reasons.  Let's say someone has a heart attack in the pool and dies.  Even if there was no way to save them, the police, insurance companies (of the individual and the facility), and the family will be looking at where to place possible blame.  His work record will come into the record, and everyone will assume he fell asleep or was inattentive.  There's no way that ends well for him, personally and possibly financially.  

Agreed.  I think many on this thread have been hard on the OP and her son, but I absolutely agree he should quit. It is a horrible job.  My memory of lifeguards back in my teens (granted that was 40 years ago) was they had short shifts.  There is probably a good reason for that.

[gardenmom5]

Agreed.  I think many on this thread have been hard on the OP and her son, but I absolutely agree he should quit. It is a horrible job.  My memory of lifeguards back in my teens (granted that was 40 years ago) was they had short shifts.  There is probably a good reason for that.

 

in our jurisdiction - lifeguards are required to swap out every 30 minutes.

 

I'd would urge them to find the references for the laws in their areas - and report them. he should also quit, because the employer is likely working against regulations in their jurisdiction - and he does not want that liability.

and here- even day laborers are required to be fed if they are working more than four hours.   so - eight hours with no food break is a big no-no.   if his replacement is supposed to come after six hours - it should not be his problem.

 

another flag of this employer - they want him to perform the duties of a life-guard - but they're calling him something else.   I'd quit  - and report them.

I'd like to add my voice to those who say he should resign, and he should feel no shame in doing so.  He is being set up to fail, and I don't think it is his fault he is falling asleep.  The management is being completely negligent in hiring to do a job that many normal people would fall asleep doing.

 

In addition to all of the above things, I'd point out that if this is a small indoor pool, I've been in many that have terrible, terrible air quality.  Often, the room isn't big enough to have enough natural air circulation, and they rarely have enough fans or vents to bring in enough fresh air.  The air quality may be another factor contributing to his falling asleep, especially if he has to breath the air for eight hours without much of a break.

[ChocolateReignRemix]

Here's me showing my paranoid side...You might also want to think about him quitting for liability reasons.  Let's say someone has a heart attack in the pool and dies.  Even if there was no way to save them, the police, insurance companies (of the individual and the facility), and the family will be looking at where to place possible blame.  His work record will come into the record, and everyone will assume he fell asleep or was inattentive.  There's no way that ends well for him, personally and possibly financially.  

 

They would sue the facility which has insurance/deeper pockets, not the 17/18 year old.

Edited March 14, 2018 by ChocolateReignRemix

[luuknam]

If you think this is reasonable, I challenge you to go to sleep tonight sometime after 10 pm.

 

Then get up at 4:30 am. Get dressed in pants and t-shirt. Leave all devices, books, etc, in your bedroom.

 

Leave a note for someone in your family to relieve you sometime between 11 am and 1 pm.

 

Report to the bathroom in your home, turn the fan on, turn on the heater and wait.

 

You can mop, but no other cleaning.

 

Sit or stand, your choice.

 

You may use the bathroom once, but you cannot leave the bathroom.

 

Wait for a family member come find you after 6 to 8 hours.

 

I don't think it's reasonable, but I also think it's a bad analogy. You can go to bed earlier than that, AND I'm sure there's more space in the actual pool area to pace than in our bathroom, which gives me a whopping 1.5-2 steps before needing to turn around, which would quickly lead to feeling quite dizzy I bet. 

 

Because he is 18. He has two jobs. He may have school or other responsibilities. Going to sleep at 10, will give you 6.5 hours of sleep before the 5 am shift. I think that is normal for a lot of people especially teens.

 

And those people shouldn't take that job then. If you need to be up at 4:30 and you need to be alert on a boring job, then you should go to bed at a time that will let you get your 8 hours. If you can't, let someone who can take that job. Not everyone goes to bed after 10. Btw, I'm not saying that the working conditions are fine... just that I think your analogy is highly problematic. 

 

Truck drivers are a similar profession.  You wouldn't want one to drive 8 hours with only potty breaks (no resting at the deli or talking to the other patrons), no radio, no audiobooks, no CB, no cell phone, no pull off and close your eyes for a few minutes.  Just continuous, completely boring hyperawareness.  (I do realize that the break requirements for truck drivers are way less than they should be for complete safety!  I'm just commented on what we would want to see for our own safety being on the road with them....and what I would want in a lifeguard that is taking care of me and my loved ones.)

 

 

Yes, the truck driving requirements in the US are utter BS and sometimes make things worse because to get the most miles in, you can't just take a nap in the middle of your shift. It's absolutely batty that you can drive for 11 hours without taking a potty break (my personal record is 10.5 hours). But, at least you can crank up the radio with upbeat music and sing along at the top of your voice. 

[Katy]

They would sue the facility which has insurance/deeper pockets, not the 17/18 year old.

 

And yet not too many months ago there was a story about a lifeguard facing potential homicide charges due to a child drowning on his watch- crowded pool, distracted drinking parents, and a dead child.  I never did hear what the decision was, but I remember the story made national news.

[Seasider]

OP

 

I don't think you sound defensive at all. The hive is great at giving suggestions and solving problems. However, the hive also has a tendency to go beyond the scope of the question and ask more questions or answer questions not asked. Sometimes/often times this is helpful, because it helps the OP see a different option. Other times, like this one, going beyond the orginal question is not helpful, because every time a question is asked/suggestion have to say it is not allowed by your son's employer. (I guess standing/pacing for 8 hours might be allowed, but I don't think that by itself would keep a sleepy person awake. I say might, because my oldest's lifeguarding job required her to sit in the lifeguard chair, so no pacing.

 

I don't think this job is right for any one.

I for one am glad we went "beyond the scope" of the original question. The additional information gained resulted in my change of opinion from unimpressed that he fell asleep on the job to get that poor guy out of an unsafe work situation.

[katilac]

And yet not too many months ago there was a story about a lifeguard facing potential homicide charges due to a child drowning on his watch- crowded pool, distracted drinking parents, and a dead child.  I never did hear what the decision was, but I remember the story made national news.

 

 

The charges would never be homicide, which relates to deliberate killings only. 

 

This is the only recent story I could find, and actually the only American one I found where the lifeguard was charged (reckless endangerment and the child survived). They do note it as rare, even unprecedented. This was at a summer camp, no distracted, drinking parents involved.  I can't find updates past September when he pleaded not guilty: 

 

https://nypost.com/2017/09/07/lifeguard-charged-in-5-year-olds-near-drowning/

 

fwiw, some of the articles detail the video footage, and it seems like the lifeguard simply didn't see the boy until he was deep in distress. No one disputes that he then jumped in and saved him with CPR, but he was charged because it took several minutes for him to see the struggling boy. 

[Guest]

And yet not too many months ago there was a story about a lifeguard facing potential homicide charges due to a child drowning on his watch- crowded pool, distracted drinking parents, and a dead child.  I never did hear what the decision was, but I remember the story made national news.

 

I can't see how a homicide charge would ever stick.  Reckless endangerment could, in theory, under the right circumstances but unless an act involves something "willful" or "wanton" then a criminal charge is not applicable.

Edited March 14, 2018 by ChocolateReign

[Guest]

 

fwiw, some of the articles detail the video footage, and it seems like the lifeguard simply didn't see the boy until he was deep in distress. No one disputes that he then jumped in and saved him with CPR, but he was charged because it took several minutes for him to see the struggling boy. 

 

Based on the other articles I have read, unless there is something missing that we aren't being told the charges are a waste of the prosecutions time.

 

[Bluegoat]

I'm not sure it matters if he is charged.  If the pool is sued, he'd still get dragged into it.

[Pen]

What has ended up happening?  I'm late to this thread, but think he either needs to quit or have significantly revised work rules.  Including wearing swim trunks, ability to do more such as listen to audio books, shorter work hours, ...

[Guest]

I'm not sure it matters if he is charged.  If the pool is sued, he'd still get dragged into it.

 

Oh being criminally charged or not certainly matters.

[poppy]

I can't imagine the mindset of "it's OK he falls asleep as a lifeguard because he has 2 jobs".  If my kid had 2 jobs and was failing in that manner, I'd probably be helping him with rent or STRONGLY encouraging him to move home, if there was any space in my house. 

[El...]

If you get a "last written warning" at work, you are very likely about to get fired. Best calculate with that in mind.

 

However... Why haven't they already fired him? Either they like him and want to give him all possible chances, or they don't know if they can find someone else to do this job. With the other information in this thread, I'm leaning toward the second.

 

I think he needs another job ASAP, or maybe more hours at his other job, so he "has to" give them a very short notice, "sadly," and quit. Get outta there.

[katilac]

 

However... Why haven't they already fired him? Either they like him and want to give him all possible chances, or they don't know if they can find someone else to do this job.  

 

Or they have a very specific protocol for firing people. At my old company, it was something like this: a certain number of verbal warnings (which, in spite of the name, were typed up, signed, and filed), a certain number of written warnings, and then a final or probationary warning. The final warning was basically an alert to look for a new job. 

[gardenmom5]

considering he is being a chump by staying two hours past the end of his shift to wait for the next guy (who "supposedly" - you don't know - isn't being reprimanded for being habitually late) - I think they're doing a lot of barking like a whimpy dog.

 

and again -I'd strongly advise him to just quit.  there are so many red flags about the employers - on a good day!

 

 

eta: he's regularly staying past his shift end time - are they paying him overtime?  I thought not.  seriously - these people have so many regulation violations, get him out of there.  I doubt they'd follow regulations on procedure for firing people.

Edited March 15, 2018 by gardenmom5

[*LC]

Why would he need to sleep after 10 if he's getting up at 4:30? That kind of sleep deprivation could lead anyone into a dangerous situation. He should be in bed by 8 or 9.

The average adult sleeps less than 7 hours a night. Going sleep around 10 would be around 6.5 hours, so around average.

[*LC]

I for one am glad we went "beyond the scope" of the original question. The additional information gained resulted in my change of opinion from unimpressed that he fell asleep on the job to get that poor guy out of an unsafe work situation.

That makes sense. However, some people thought the additional information made the OP look defensive. I agree with you that it gave a clearer picture of what is going on.

[*LC]

I don't think it's reasonable, but I also think it's a bad analogy. You can go to bed earlier than that, AND I'm sure there's more space in the actual pool area to pace than in our bathroom, which gives me a whopping 1.5-2 steps before needing to turn around, which would quickly lead to feeling quite dizzy I bet.

 

 

And those people shouldn't take that job then. If you need to be up at 4:30 and you need to be alert on a boring job, then you should go to bed at a time that will let you get your 8 hours. If you can't, let someone who can take that job. Not everyone goes to bed after 10. Btw, I'm not saying that the working conditions are fine... just that I think your analogy is highly problematic.

 

 

 

The amount of sleep is average. Plus for the analogy, one would only do it for a few nights.

 

My bathroom is bigger than yours. It even has seating at the end of the jacquzzi tub. I don't think any analogy is ever exact. I stand b this one, because bathrooms are the only room I could think of that would not give you something to do/look at. It also gives white noise with a fan. Plus you can make it warm if there is a heater.

 

A better alternative would be the indoor pool at a hotel for the same hours as the OP soon works. It would have to be a quiet pool with not a lot of people. Unfortunately, it would probably cost money to try the experiment.

 

 

I hope he has found a better job. I even think he might be able to be a lifeguard under normal circumstances.