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Does this sound like an LD issue? or APD? Uh....


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One of my friends has a DD11, almost 12, who has wanted to play piano for years. She had a cheap keyboard where the keys would light up for various songs, and taught herself most of them, as well as found a few on youtube that she's been able to learn, and can play some pretty impressive stuff.

 

They finally were able to get enough money together to get her a piano for Christmas, and so far, she's been fired by two piano teachers for lack of progress, since mid-January! The mom called me today, asking me to try to figure out what was going on. I'm not primarily a pianist or piano teacher, but I'm a music teacher, and her daughter is just so depressed and demoralized by this double "Failure", that mom doesn't know where to go from here. I spent a couple of hours with her this afternoon.

 

And, I can kind of see why the teachers have gotten frustrated. This is a kid who can play full versions of things like Moonlight Sonata, but cannot reliably find G on the piano. She can tell you that the set of 3 black keys is F, G, A, and B, but if you ask her to point to G, she will touch or play F or A about 75% of the time. She cannot hear the difference between notes or when she is off in a song, even a song she knows and can sing. If I show her which two notes she should play and then sing or play a melody using just those two notes, she cannot repeat even something 4 notes long. I'm not a music therapist, but I've got a pretty strong background in teaching music to kids who have reading disabilities, and honestly, this is the first time I've ever seen a kid who was playing to this level who could not read music who was not playing by ear.  But as far as I can tell, she is somehow learning how to play just by seeing what keys to press-but cannot hear the differences.

 

There is a very, very strong family history of LD issues (mom, older sister, younger brother, and, honestly, probably dad as well, although I don't think he was ever DX'd- his stories sound like 2e to me). I had kind of expected to discover issues in reading music-but I don't know that I've ever had a child who wants to play this much, but apparently cannot read OR hear pitches. And I'm thinking that maybe, just maybe, this family has three kids with something going on-not just two.

 

 

 

 

 

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If I show her which two notes she should play and then sing or play a melody using just those two notes, she cannot repeat even something 4 notes long.

 

 

Can she play if she watch you play? As in imitate your playing like Suzuki style?

 

Tone deaf?

Typically it would be described as tone deaf. However my DS13 has perfect pitch and imitates by sight when his ears are clogged by ear wax. I actually play by ear because I have vision tracking issues that makes sight reading tiring. When DS13 can’t hear well, he could play his cello by touch if someone else help him tune up the cello strings. My husband plays by sight and touch on the piano when his ears are clogged.

 

So besides tone deaf, I would also be wondering about hearing issues and the child compensating by using her sight to learn.

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So what you are seeing is that she cannot link the letters you call out for notes to keys on the keyboard?

 

You say she has perfect pitch but cannot hear the difference in notes she is playing?  Or notes you are asking her to play?

 

I'm trying to visualize exactly what you are seeing/hearing.

 

FWIW, DD could not link names of notes with sounds produced by those notes with the keys for those notes.  She can hear sounds well but there was a serious glitch in pulling all of those various pieces together.  Basically notes were one language, names of notes were another language, and the keys were something else.  She could not link these various things together easily AT ALL.  And yet she had grabbed our old keyboard and was teaching herself to play music based on pre-programmed songs built into the keyboard.  I signed her up for Simply Music, a music program originally written for blind students to learn how to play.  It does not tie names of notes to keys on a keyboard initially at all.  It works on teaching fingers linked to positions on the keyboard and the groups of sounds made for chords.  Names of notes etc. get introduced much later.  She did very well and was playing and even writing her own music within weeks but we ended up dropping the program during a challenging time in our lives and never picked it up again.  I don't know how she would have done if we had continued into the letters/keys/notes portion.

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She doesn’t have perfect pitch, but she can sing, say, twinkle, twinkle and have the intervals be correct. But she cannot, given a starting pitch, recognize that she is not playing th correct notes for twinkle, twinkle. If I sing or play sol-mi, sol-sol mi on G and E, she cannot play it even if she starts with her fingers on those exact notes.

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We don’t have any Simply Music teachers in the area, unfortunately. I thought of that after the last piano teacher didn’f work out.

 

She can pick it up visually, but Suzuki on piano is much more auditory than visual. It’s not as position linked as violin is (even Twinkle requires moving out of C position). And, honestly, the Suzuki piano teachers I know don’t seem the best fit. They tend to either be “book 1 for little ones†or be mostly focused on kids who are several books in and really transitioning to reading.

Edited by Dmmetler2
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So, does she not want to go back to the beginning? Lots of people who are self-taught things have to start over and learn some new things, but then they soar. Is it a compliance thing? Do the teachers have big enough studios they just don't want to deal with her? Is everybody Suzuki and not budging on that method?

 

This makes me sad. I know at least two music teachers who teach multiple kids with LDs of some kind, from dyslexia to autism and combination deals of issues to boot. including my own kiddos. And they produce really good musicians--there was actual weeping at the last recital over the beauty of some of the performances. 

 

Unfortunately, while the teachers might be frustrated, I wonder if this is as much "that's not the kind of kid I want to teach" as it is the learning quirks themselves. I know we have exceptional teachers who work for peanuts and the satisfaction, but still. 

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We don’t have any Simply Music teachers in the area, unfortunately. I thought of that after the last piano teacher didn’f work out.

 

She can pick it up visually, but Suzuki on piano is much more auditory than visual. It’s not as position linked as violin is (even Twinkle requires moving out of C position). And, honestly, the Suzuki piano teachers I know don’t seem the best fit. They tend to either be “book 1 for little ones†or be mostly focused on kids who are several books in and really transitioning to reading.

Are you trying to teach her?  For a bit?  Simply Music is available through Homeschool Buyer's Co-op.  Maybe if you had access you could use it to teach her?  Her mom could buy the program and give you access.  That way she could also use it to practice at home.

 

https://www.homeschoolbuyersco-op.org/simply-music/

 

I'm just thinking that she might do better with the Simply Music approach and someone who is more understanding.

 

And yes it sounds like a learning difference or more than one is tripping her up with using conventional methods.

Edited by OneStepAtATime
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When I memorized piano music, I did it sort of visually like that. I would look at the patterns of the notes and remember them. I'm just super bunk on auditory, so visual is the way to go for me. Like if someone tells me something, I HAVE to write it down.

 

I think not distinguishing error notes could be a different thing. I don't have that issue. My ds, on the other hand, couldn't hit a note and had intonation problems. They both improved with music therapy. Might be a more pleasant way to approach it, rather than dumping it on some poor, likely under-trained piano teacher. Or try a voice teacher. Approach it sort of back door, another way, rather than tying her piano playing to it.

 

So she can't read music? My dd couldn't and for her it was a brain wiring thing. Her brain just wasn't making all the connections. We did metronome work, and after that she started doing it herself. We were doing a lot of midline and mixed activities with the metronome work. Even then, it was like stupid sucky hard for my dd to start to sight read. Like you really can't believe how hard. Ok, you can. Like probably almost as hard as it will be for this girl. Tedious and painfully slow. Never seen anything like it. 

 

So I would back door with good metronome work and voice lessons and see where you get.

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What a tricky problem. My dyslexic daughter had a lot of trouble with piano lessons, because she couldn't read the music. I have a son who is musically talented and can play by ear and dislikes the work it takes to read music (though he can do it). Both of them have LDs.

 

Honestly, it sounds to me like she has some learning disabilities. The auditory component of her troubles is wonky enough that I think it would be helpful for her to have a screening by an audiologist who can test for hearing and processing issues (not all audiologists will do screenings for APD). I wonder if she has some working memory issues that makes immediate practice during lessons difficult. If she really practiced the songs she has learned on her own over an extended time, she may have gotten those songs into her long term memory. My musical son will play the same things over and over and over and over, just because he likes them. If she has done that with the songs she learned on her keyboard, her brain may have them stored in the long-term memory now.

 

Also, it sounds like the multisensory aspect of the lighted keyboard made a huge difference for her -- almost as if she learned to play by following the lights instead of processing the connection between the keys and the sound they make.

 

I feel badly for her, since she loves music and wants to be able to play it. It's horrible that she is feeling dejected. At the same time, I think it is good that the teachers who gave up refused to continue to take money for giving lessons that were doing no good. Maybe talking through that with her could help her feel less rejected (maybe? I know that it's hard to change feelings with logic).

 

I think it is very nice for her to have someone like you who wants to help her. If you are in position to do so, it might not be a bad idea to suggest that her parents get some evaluations. Do you know if she has trouble with school? Is she homeschooled?

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I will have to read a bit more later and respond but first things first. There are crappy piano teachers and more tolerant ones. I have a daughter that has a crazy high IQ. She has played piano now for 6 years and is pretty advanced she even writes her own music with lyrics. It isn't trivial music &  lyrics either. OK now having said that we had to find a piano teacher that could work with her. She wants to play more modern compositions and she got fired from her first piano teacher for not being able to find middle C on the piano. She did not have quick recall of the notes just like you are describing but she was an outstanding sight reader and could play songs quickly if she had heard them before. It was kind of nuts that she would still have a hard time finding middle C after 3 years of lessons.  I found a great piano teacher that also teaches garage band. The teacher lets my daughter play classical music and katy perry.  She just is not a round peg in their square hole and I am not trying to get her into Julliard.  I would encourage them to find a teacher and explain that she has a learning disability ask if the teacher will take this on. The piano is awesome biofeedback and if she is motivated to learn I would recommend they find someone who will help her instead of being all persnickity about it. Neither of my kids are robots and I have to find teachers who are understanding. I did have to pay a bit more and interview and encourage but both of my kids love music and they are sticking with it. In the long run it has helped them so much. Both teachers have a variety of music and are not rigid in their desire for perfection. 

 

What you described beyond that matches my son and auditory processing but after a few years with a good teacher he can now tell if a note is sharp or flat on the guitar. He moves much more slowly than the other students that take from this teacher but she is outstanding and patient.  He has learned the notes over time but she has played to his strengths.  It takes longer for him to build automaticity but I have no doubt he will be an outstanding guitarist if he sticks with it. 

 

OK I came back to finish this post: 

They should have their daughter tested for sure with a neuropsych because this could be showing up at school. If her working memory is low they could consider CAPD testing and working on listening programs. This will affect her life for sure in many areas so its worth pursuing. 

 

Interactive metronome would be awesome for her in either case and she could also spend a few months playing music on youtube with her keyboard then start up lessons again. Also I am not saying that she has ADHD but girls are very often undiagnosed and low working memory like you are describing may very well in play here along with CAPD so medication and therapy would be worth finding out. 

 

I wanted to share a story about my son. He has diagnosed CAPD. I interviewed several teachers but they were too rigid and followed a very strict lesson plan. My son needed structure but not an impatient teacher. Finally I called a highly experienced teacher. I ask her for advice and explained my sons challenges. She was so kind. She said " I would very much like to teach your son" and she has. I sit with him in lessons and coach and support at home but she has been so good about thinking outside the box and helping him. It has been life changing. My son heard me play one of his songs the other day and walked over and told me that I was playing the wrong note and showed me how to play it correctly. This is a boy who did not know he was playing the wrong note for the entire first year of lessons and only played by site. He had no rhythm to start with either. He has shown amazing growth and the growth in guitar has helped his CAPD significantly and his academics. I hope this girl can find a good teacher who can be patient and teach with compassion and play to her strengths.

OK came back to add this

Edited by exercise_guru
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I spent some time today talking to a colleague who works predominantly with special needs issues (she is the music teacher for two separate schools and an adult day program), and she had some suggestions as well in the short term. I'm also going to seriously look at teachers in the area and see if I can find someone to transition this child to in, say 6 months or so. It won't hurt her to have several months focusing on beat bonding, ear training, and singing, with a little piano thrown in and we can build her confidence back up a bit, but I want someone excellent so the next change can be the last one. And, hopefully, the parents will be amenable to getting the child tested and getting some more information.

 

 

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