Looking for current thoughts on IMACS college-level courses

[MAhomeschool]

Hi all,

I have been benefiting from these forums for years, but this is the first time I have ever been brave enough to start a topic. But I really need some current thoughts on the University Computer Science (USC) and Mathematical Logic classes from IMACS (Institute for Mathematics and Computer Science); the old threads I could find on these classes (not the EM classes) date from 2011. We would be doing the online versions.

 

I have an extremely mathematically-inclined 9th grader (planning to take AP Calc BC next year, watches YouTube videos on calculus topics for fun), and I only recently stumbled across these classes. They seem like they might be good, but there are very pricey, and there is no way to preview them in depth without registering and then cancelling and forfeiting $100. And I can find very little in the way of independent reviews of the courses. My son has already taken the aptitude test and he got very positive feedback. and an invitation to start either sequence.  My problem is that I already have his schedule for the next three years planned out, and doing these classes would probably mean bumping something else.  If they are really good, I would do it in a heartbeat, but I'm hesitate to start down their paths without more independent feedback from recent users.

 

So I would really appreciate any feedback anyone can give me on either of these sequences.  Any thoughts would be welcome, but as a starting point: Are they well-designed and well-run?  Do you feel that the classes gave your student a much deeper understanding (or a very different type of understanding) than a typical computer or math course?  Do you feel that the classes gave your student a much better foundation for college math or computer classes?  And while I know every student is different, about how much time (total hours or hours per week and how long it took to finish) did the classes take for your student to complete?  And has anyone had a student make it through the Set Theory class and onto their "extraordinarily advanced courses"?  

 

Thanks in advance for your thoughts!

[Xahm]

Absolutely no idea, but I'll bump this for you.

[snowbeltmom]

My college freshman took the first two computer science classes. The teacher feedback was very quick and thorough. I think my son spent up to 2 hours a day on the class, but he was in middle school when he took them, so the time commitment may not be as great for an older student.

My kids didn't take the math sequence.

 

Both of my boys are majoring in math and computer science. They have both told me the most useful classes that they took at home to prepare them for classes in their majors were the AoPS counting and probability courses and calculus.

[SeaConquest]

My college freshman took the first two computer science classes. The teacher feedback was very quick and thorough. I think my son spent up to 2 hours a day on the class, but he was in middle school when he took them, so the time commitment may not be as great for an older student.

My kids didn't take the math sequence.

 

Both of my boys are majoring in math and computer science. They have both told me the most useful classes that they took at home to prepare them for classes in their majors were the AoPS counting and probability courses and calculus.

 

I am wondering if we would be better off taking the AoPS Intro to Python and then Advanced Python, followed by AP CS (and then perhaps a Data Structures course) vs the eIMACS courses.

[snowbeltmom]

I am wondering if we would be better off taking the AoPS Intro to Python and then Advanced Python, followed by AP CS (and then perhaps a Data Structures course) vs the eIMACS courses.

Imo, they are both great options. I don't think you could go wrong with either one.

[arliemaria]

I am wondering if we would be better off taking the AoPS Intro to Python and then Advanced Python, followed by AP CS (and then perhaps a Data Structures course) vs the eIMACS courses.

 

I have been thinking about future AP classes and my biggest concern is taking them too early so the scores may not be viewed on their regular report or be too old for the college to recognize them for credit.

[SeaConquest]

I have been thinking about future AP classes and my biggest concern is taking them too early so the scores may not be viewed on their regular report or be too old for the college to recognize them for credit.

 

That isn't a problem. You just write in to have them saved. Many ALs do APs in middle school. I would expect Sacha to do AP CS first -- likely around 7th grade, if he stays on his current trajectory.

[SeaConquest]

Also, depending on where you are applying for college, many selective universities don't give credit for APs. They might place you out of a class, though.

 

My local UC gives tons of credit for APs; my alma mater, not so much. The selective schools really just assume most people are taking lots of APs or DE as part of the rigor they require for admission. 

[snowbeltmom]

That isn't a problem. You just write in to have them saved. Many ALs do APs in middle school. I would expect Sacha to do AP CS first -- likely around 7th grade, if he stays on his current trajectory.

I agree that taking APs in middle school is not a problem. With APs, the exam scores remain part of your permanent testing record unless you pay the College Board to have the score removed. (If you take SAT or SAT II's in middle school, you do have to write to the College Board to have those scores retained on the student record.)

[snowbeltmom]

I am wondering if we would be better off taking the AoPS Intro to Python and then Advanced Python, followed by AP CS (and then perhaps a Data Structures course) vs the eIMACS courses.

Well, to add another twist...I just got off the phone with one of my kiddos and asked him which computer course he felt best prepared him for his computer classes in college. He told me the computer classes he took with CTY were the best.

[arliemaria]

That isn't a problem. You just write in to have them saved. Many ALs do APs in middle school. I would expect Sacha to do AP CS first -- likely around 7th grade, if he stays on his current trajectory.

 

Just a quick google search for the AP CS exam brought up two different tests.  AP CS A and AP CS Principles.  It says that CS Principles parallels CS A.  I don't quite understand that.  Would you have your student take both around the same time?

 

So if your AL takes an AP say in 7th grade like CS A (which the Wikipedia says is equivalent to a first semester course) would you give a grade/.5 credit of HS? I am already getting nervous about what to do with Algebra when he takes it in 5th or so.  Do I record that as HS credit?

 

 

**Sorry to hijack this thread**

[SeaConquest]

Just a quick google search for the AP CS exam brought up two different tests. AP CS A and AP CS Principles. It says that CS Principles parallels CS A. I don't quite understand that. Would you have your student take both around the same time?

 

So if your AL takes an AP say in 7th grade like CS A (which the Wikipedia says is equivalent to a first semester course) would you give a grade/.5 credit of HS? I am already getting nervous about what to do with Algebra when he takes it in 5th or so. Do I record that as HS credit?

 

 

**Sorry to hijack this thread**

My kid will be in Algebra in 5th as well. I would just organize the transcript by topic. Or, in the case of Algebra, higher level coursework validates that lower coursework was completed. You can do it either way.

 

I will look into CTY as well. Thanks, Snowbeltmom.

[daijobu]

Just a quick google search for the AP CS exam brought up two different tests.  AP CS A and AP CS Principles.  It says that CS Principles parallels CS A.  I don't quite understand that.  Would you have your student take both around the same time?

 

So if your AL takes an AP say in 7th grade like CS A (which the Wikipedia says is equivalent to a first semester course) would you give a grade/.5 credit of HS? I am already getting nervous about what to do with Algebra when he takes it in 5th or so.  Do I record that as HS credit?

 

 

**Sorry to hijack this thread**

 

Don't take both of them.  Just take AP CS A, the Java-based OOP programming class.  

 

I'm not including credits from before high school on my high school transcript GPA.  I am recording the test scores and the fact that the class was taken, but not using it for high school credit.  But I'm not 100% sold on this idea.  

[arliemaria]

I am wondering if we would be better off taking the AoPS Intro to Python and then Advanced Python, followed by AP CS (and then perhaps a Data Structures course) vs the eIMACS courses.

 

The only AoPs pre-req for Intro to Python is Pre-A course.  If your kid has played programming games like Robot Turtles and Lightbot when he was very little. To me these were like preprogramming. Then code.org courses followed now by playing on CodeMonkey daily or his Kano computer.  He also has a coding club available that we might start making our Tuesday evening outing.  Would these count as actual programming?  The AoPS site says, "Students who have programmed before, but not with Python, might be better served by downloading an online textbook and studying it on their own."  Which online textbook would replace their Intro to Python course?    

 

After the above poster mentioned the CTY course I had to go check out their offerings.  I saw they have an Intro to CS for 3-6 grade that I think Robby could probably do this summer.  It uses a Makey-Makey as part of the course.  I have considered buying him one of these the past few Christmases, but then opted for other gifts.  That just leaves applying for CTY, I guess.  I have not had him take the SCAT only the WISC-V.  

 

If the goal is passing the AP CS A exam what is the best sequence to prepare for it?  I know the basic math sequence to Calc, but no idea the progression through CS to college level course.  I guess this is part of the program of homeschooling AL students.  I so appreciate this board and people posting questions like this topic because it helps me begin thinking about our own path to these course and beyond.

[mathnerd]

 

If the goal is passing the AP CS A exam what is the best sequence to prepare for it?  I know the basic math sequence to Calc, but no idea the progression through CS to college level course. 

MIT Scratch is a good place to start and is an excellent intro to programming language learning. He can start this year with Scratch and learn advanced topics like: Variables, Conditions, Loops, Arrays, Nested conditions, Functions, Nested loops, Multi-threading, Matrices using Scratch projects to implement them. I did not follow a specific book but there are many available. I just taught one concept at a time. The good thing about Scratch is that there are a ton of free code samples available for your son to learn from. Once he is good at this, he will be ready to move on to either Java or Python programming (AOPS or CTY - i have no information on iMacs). My personal opinion is that being familiar with programming concepts helps a lot when moving to real coding. Scratch is free, and if the child is interested, it is a good place to start.

 

Check out some afterschool programming classes in your town. There are many that teach AP CS curriculum and they have very strong curriculum and projects as well.

Edited March 7, 2018 by mathnerd

[SoCal_Bear]

A bit OT, but I know there are others reading through this thread thinking about progression. 

What's great about Scratch is that is is very easy to begin to use. However, Scratch is a visual block language. My son was done with Scratch, but I did not think he was quite ready to jump straight into learning Python or Java. I didn't think it was that useful that what he was doing was just playing with other people's projects on Scratch. I just didn't think it was going anywhere useful. I thought while he was getting something out of it, it wasn't quite getting him where I wanted him to go next.

He probably could have made the jump, but I wanted to give him something he could work through relatively independently and problem solve himself and STAY motivated and engaged. It's been  marvelous in building his confidence and motivation to debug his own code. I can see how this is improving his own critical thinking and problem solving skills. Instead of telling kids this is what to do (as in type in this code and it will do this), Code Monkey shifts it more to be self-discovery/self-teaching on the part of students so they are learning and improving as they experiment with their code. What works, what doesn't work, and learning to be persistant in improving their code.

What I did was to do Code Monkey which teaches kids to code in Coffescript (which is quite similar to Javascript, but with friendlier Syntax) through a series of stepped lessons/challenges. I really like the instant feedback and the emphasis on learning to write code within the structure of a fun, rewarding experience. You can only earn 3 stars on a level if your code accomplishes the goal and does it efficiently within a certain number of lines of code. The topics covered: Objects, function calls, arguments, loops, variables, arrays, for loops, function definitions, boolean conditions, until loops, if and if-else conditions, boolean operators, keyboard and mouse events.
 

I really like how it is visual like Scratch where the left side of the screen shows what your code does and the right side is where you code. They do offer a 2 week free trial. It's not super obvious in the FAQ, but when you subscribe you do get access to all the courses. (Coding Adventure, Platform Adventure, Frogger, Game Design, Python Chatbot, Dodo Does Math). Eventually, they will get to the point where they build their own challenge and write their own games.

It's pretty inexpensive for the Home subscription, $40 for a year. Code Monkey is recommended for ages 9 and up. You can use it for a younger student with parental help/support. However, I think for CM, parental support/scaffolding would defeat some of the aspects of learning on your own. So, YMMV depending on how you choose to use it. Also, it is really helpful for the student to know how to type. There are tools to help students with inserting code for various functions, but it is super easy to make errors in your code if you do that. If you actually type out the code yourself, you are able to catch your errors as you are typing. It's actually a pretty good lesson in why accuracy is important.

https://www.playcodemonkey.com/

Edited March 7, 2018 by calbear

[MarkT]

A non text language like Scratch would drive me bonkers.

 

Your student seems quite gifted. I suggest you do a short, free or inexpensive Python course over the summer - I will update this with a WTM link.

See if your student likes programming in general before signing up for the more pricey stuff.

 

links:

http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/646526-python-course/

http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/660675-online-python-class/

 

feel free to send me a PM

 

(I am semi-retired SW development professional)

Mark  

[MarkT]

This description from the IMACS web-site looks quite good:

https://www.imacs.org/class-curriculum/university-level-math-courses/

 

IMACS offers two University-Level Courses, one in computer science and one in mathematics.

 

University Computer Science

The university-level computer science program at IMACS goes well beyond just learning to code. Our courses emphasize computational thinking by teaching students how to apply mathematical abstraction to concrete computer algorithms.

 

Rather than focusing narrowly on ideas relevant only to a specific coding environment, University Computer Science develops problem-solving skills that can be applied to any programming situation.

 

In addition to building a deep foundation in computer science, students who complete the entire University Computer Science curriculum gain significant experience in four diverse programming languages including Scheme, Haskell, Python and Java.