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AP vs CLEP for Am Govt and US History


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My ds is strong in history and we are considering having him take the CLEP for both of these courses. I've noticed there isn't much discussion about CLEP for either Am Govt or US History. Would it be a mistake to go the route of CLEP instead of taking an AP class and the test knowing he most likely would be successful since it's his strong subject? I'm leaning toward CLEP due to the fact that it would save so much time.

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I think it probably depends on the reasons for taking the tests and what kinds of colleges he is considering. Are you looking for college credit and/or to show high school rigor? What kinds of colleges is he considering? Highly selective lottery schools, a local community college, or something in between?

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I took this weekend to look at the colleges he is interested in and write down which AP and CLEP exams they accepted and compared it to his prospective major. For both History and Government they schools will accept either AP or CLEP credit.

After making a list, I came up with 6 courses we plan on completing via AP with hopes to pass the exam and get credit and there are 7 others we thought he could pass that via CLEP. And a couple that he would need to do via Dual credit.

So I guess I'm hoping to have a variety and get as much credit as he can. I was just concerned that CLEP might not be too impressive

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I took this weekend to look at the colleges he is interested in and write down which AP and CLEP exams they accepted and compared it to his prospective major. For both History and Government they schools will accept either AP or CLEP credit.

After making a list, I came up with 6 courses we plan on completing via AP with hopes to pass the exam and get credit and there are 7 others we thought he could pass that via CLEP. And a couple that he would need to do via Dual credit.

So I guess I'm hoping to have a variety and get as much credit as he can. I was just concerned that CLEP might not be too impressive

In general, it’s true that APs are considered more rigorous than CLEP. How selective are the colleges he is considering? I’m guessing if they give credit for AP, CLEP, and dual enrollment then then they are fine with seeing all of them for admission purposes. Given your plans, it sounds like he might still be early in his high school years and that possibly you are attempting to get up to two years of college credit while he’s in high school? If he decides at some point that he wants to try for selective colleges, then dual enrollment or APs would probably be preferable to CLEP, especially in his primary areas of interest. But some very selective colleges will give little or no actual credit for any of the three, although they might help a student place into higher classes if desired.

 

My son did AP Government as a freshman, and I do think it is one of the easier APs. If it’s a strong area for your son, he might be able to do quite well with just a one semester home course and some focused study. I don’t have any first hand knowledge, but I do think the AP history exam is quite a bit more difficult.

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My kids are doing CLEP for US History (both tests) and Government. This decision was made because we can pack the CLEP test-prep into 6-8 week intensives and take the test at their convenience. So, they are working toward taking a couple CLEP tests this summer for the two history courses, and taking the Government almost immediately following.

 

This frees up the rest of their "School Year" (we school year-round, taking breaks as needed) for AP subjects. They're taking AP sciences, math, and English courses and will take the AP classes for those - spending the entire year in classes preparing.

 

Their friends have told them that the AP History classes are really time-consuming, which didn't make them particularly excited to study for the AP test.

 

They'll also take the CLEP for College Algebra, Sociology (iirc), and possibly for foreign language as well.

 

Some of the schools they are looking at accept CLEP credits with no problem. Others are on a case-by-case basis (depending upon the enrolling student's preferred major). And still others don't accept CLEP at all. We are fine with that. If they HAVE to take History or Government again... it'll be easy credits.

 

They're also taking SATIIs for Math, Science, and English.

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I took this weekend to look at the colleges he is interested in and write down which AP and CLEP exams they accepted and compared it to his prospective major. For both History and Government they schools will accept either AP or CLEP credit.

After making a list, I came up with 6 courses we plan on completing via AP with hopes to pass the exam and get credit and there are 7 others we thought he could pass that via CLEP. And a couple that he would need to do via Dual credit.

So I guess I'm hoping to have a variety and get as much credit as he can. I was just concerned that CLEP might not be too impressive

Impressive to whom? If schools give credit for CLEP, he'll get the credit exactly the same way as if he took the AP. For the longest time based on comments on this forum, I had the same concerns you are posting, but unless your student is applying to schools where the CLEP is just wasting $$ to take bc they won't offer credit, it is a perfectly valid option. If your student plans on applying to Harvard, Princeton, Yale, MIT, etc, yes, you are correct that CLEP won't be as "impressive." (But taking APs and DE won't be enough, either. It takes significantly more than coursework to be accepted.)

 

My current college freshman entered at a sophomore level standing due to CLEP credit. She was accepted to URochester with a scholarship with no APs and no DE grades (she took one DE class spring semeste.). She was awarded full tuition at Fordham. Those were the highest ranked schools she applied to. She was invited to top competitive scholarship weekends and was given between full ride to full tuition at multiple other schools. It didn't have to do with APs vs CLEP. It was based on standardized test scores, NMF, her over all transcript/course descriptions, awards, and ECs. (What goes on in admissions is way more complicated than a list of courses. Understanding the type of school being applied really matters.)

 

Fwiw, my 10th grader took both US histories last yr and scored high enough to get credit at the university she wants to attend. She already knows where she wants to apply, so it makes it a lot easier. But, while she took the CLEP fine last yr as a 14 yr old, she would have never been willing to take the AP. She is my extremely-stressed-by-situations kid. Having to go into a school and take an exam in a classroom of kids would have pushed her over the edge last yr. (this yr she could probably cope with it better.) But going into a college testing office was no biggie to her.

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Look at the schools you're thinking of.

 

The schools mine are attending were fine with CLEP tests for history, government, and psychology. AP's for math, English, science, and foreign languages. For one, it was program-specific.

 

Some people have theirs take CLEP's/AP's to show college-level work without expecting credits, but we did them for both. My oldest is an accounting major, and he got out of nearly all of his humanities.

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I took this weekend to look at the colleges he is interested in and write down which AP and CLEP exams they accepted and compared it to his prospective major. For both History and Government they schools will accept either AP or CLEP credit.

After making a list, I came up with 6 courses we plan on completing via AP with hopes to pass the exam and get credit and there are 7 others we thought he could pass that via CLEP. And a couple that he would need to do via Dual credit.

So I guess I'm hoping to have a variety and get as much credit as he can. I was just concerned that CLEP might not be too impressive

CLEP reporting to the school is after you are all accepted and you are just trying to get the credits (exam may have been taken two years prior).

I would not submit CLEP scores to colleges with the application. In that respect, AP has more cache'.  Take the  AP exam if a 4 or 5 is expected.

 

IMHO

Mark.

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If you want the credit to show up on a transcript, your local CC may accept your CLEP credit and put them on their transcript. If you want to graduate with an AA or AS or you have a system like Texas with set core requirements that transfer as a block, this may be to your advantage. OTOH, in Texas, UT Austin and TAMU accept more CLEPs than my local CC so read your universities' credit by external exam sections carefully.

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Were competitive colleges on your list?

Depends on how you define competitive. URochester and Fordham were on her list. Neither gives credit for CLEP (Fordham does through their continuing learning program, but not traditional UG.)

 

Those were the highest ranked schools she applied to. But she also applied to numerous competitive programs within Us and scholarships without issue.

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popping back in to add: Forgot micro and macroeconomics! They're CLEP'ing those too! .

 

In hindsight, it looks like we are CLEPing those subjects that *I* can teach or that the kids can self-study for easily. Self-studying for math and science are tougher (for us, at least). And English... I want that spread out across the whole year so the kids stay accustomed to having to read (things they didn't choose for themselves) and write frequently.

 

I can't see how having CLEP scores on an application or transcript could hurt. Maybe a particular university won't be "impressed," - but honestly, those universities are looking for the "x-factor" and not just test scores, etc anyway. They receive way too many uber high-achieving applicants for a CLEP score to downgrade a student if that student has an otherwise impressive/distinctive resume or application.

 

CLEPs are just more convenient. Homeschoolers are off the beaten path anyway. If my kid were applying to a highly selective university, I would probably mention in my school report that CLEP tests were frequently preferred over APs because we were better able to fit them into our yearly schedule and scatter the tests throughout the year as opposed to having 6-7 AP classes to prepare for all in May (that would be insane ... for us...). s.

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Something to check into with CLEPs is not just whether they are accepted for credit at a particular school, but what kind of credit they count as. Some tests may be accepted for equivalent course credit (e.g. Intro Soc CLEP = SOC 1101), so you can use that CLEP to fulfill any GenEds or prereqs that SOC 1101 would. But the same school may only give "general credit" for, say, the American Lit CLEP, even if they offer a course with the exact same name, so that test will just give you 3 generic "filler credits" that don't count for GenEds or prereqs or anything.

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hopskipjump- Our reasoning behind doing CLEP vs AP is much the same as yours...to free up some time in our schedule to concentrate on the AP courses.  I'm thinking if my children are already well-versed in History/Government then taking an AP course in these areas might be more like having "busy work" when they could use the time to focus on other subjects that they could use some more focus on.  

 

I have charted the AP, CLEP acceptance and what each course will count for at the top 4 universities he is interested in and made a list once it was compared to the core and department requirements for his intended major.  So, at this point I do feel that I know what course would count for what if he did pass the AP or the CLEP.  

 

As far as the "impressed" part - I guess I was referring not so much to a WOW factor but (since we all work so hard to make sure our kids are taking legitimate courses and obviously if he is taking AP courses then I want to push him) I guess I was just worried it would seem like he couldn't have done the work of AP in this area...which is far from the case.  I just want to free up time to focus on some other courses.  History/Government are not going to be a part of his major so I wondered if it would matter much.

 

Thanks everyone for your feedback. It's always so valuable.

 

 

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After thinking about it and doing more research, I think we will just find the best courses (and teachers) to take and then follow up with an exam dependent on that course.  I was reading through the website homeschoolingforcollegecredit and this struck me, and thus I think we will go that route:

 

"

Second, an entire semester or year of work is what constitutes high school credit, not one exam.  High schools award credit based on hours, not competency.  As such, estimate 60 hours = 1/2 high school credit, 120 hours = 1 high school credit.

Ultimately, it’s your decision how CLEP exam results are handled as part of their high school grade, but my suggestion is to mirror the common practices used by high schools and colleges.  As such, a CLEP score should represent 0% of the student’s high school grade.  There is solid precedent to support my suggestion:

  1. Advanced Placement (AP) courses do not use AP exams as part of the student’s course grade.
  2. International Baccalaureate (IB) courses do not use IB exams as part of the student’s course grade.
  3. Colleges do not award letter grades for CLEP exams.
  4. CLEP exams scores never count toward a college student’s GPA or course grade.
  5. Only colleges award credit for CLEP scores, not high schools.
  6. High schools are not authorized to award college credit, only high school credit. "  

FROM homeschoolingforcollegecredit.com

 

Thanks everyone for your feedback -- now back to the drawing board.

 

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My understanding is that some schools use sitting for the AP exam in May to impact a course grade, as a way to require the AP exam.  The AP exam scores themselves don't come back until after grades have been finalized for the year for the vast majority of schools.  Senior transcripts are due at most colleges before the AP exam scores are released.  I haven't heard of any schools where the AP exam score itself is reflected in the final course grade; I suppose it would be possible for a school to use the exam score for junior year grades, but I haven't read about it actually happening.

Edited by wapiti
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My understanding is that some schools use sitting for the AP exam in May to impact a course grade, as a way to require the AP exam. The AP exam scores themselves don't come back until after grades have been finalized for the year for the vast majority of schools. Senior transcripts are due at most colleges before the AP exam scores are released. I haven't heard of any schools where the AP exam score itself is reflected in the final course grade; I suppose it would be possible for a school to use the exam score for junior year grades, but I haven't read about it actually happening.

Yep, there are schools that do let the actual score impact the final grade. It wouldn't matter to srs, but it does for other grades.

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Yep, there are schools that do let the actual score impact the final grade. It wouldn't matter to srs, but it does for other grades.

for AP that would be almost impossible in AZ - at least 95% of the high schools are done by Memorial day and waiting until early July for final grades would be crazy.

Many high schools here state in their course catalogs if the student signs up for AP course X then they must take the exam - unless the high school is paying I can not see how they would enforce such a stupid rule.  IMO The student should take the exam if they are comfortable taking it and the teacher thinks they will be reasonably successful.

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I did a quick google and came up with this thread.  You will see that while many posters don't have it happen at their schools, there are schools where grades are retroactively changed. https://talk.collegeconfidential.com/parents-forum/1792855-ap-score-impact-on-classroom-grade-p1.html

 

Here is a news article about practices in FL.  http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2014-03-29/features/os-ap-courses-exams-grades-20140329_1_ap-exams-ap-classes-ap-teachers  

 

 

At Apopka, students who earn a 3 have their grades changed to a B if they were lower, and those who score a 4 or 5 have grades moved up to A's. The scores from 168 exams — out of 1,130 taken — led to hikes in student grades last year, he said.

 

Edited by 8FillTheHeart
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Trying to incorporate CLEP scores into a course grade can be problematic because the only "official" grade equivalence chart for CLEPs (provided by ACE and published on the College Board site) only gives score equivalents for B and C, and the B grade varies quite a bit between tests. For example, ACE considers a 53 equivalent to a B in American Lit, but in Chemistry you'd need a 66 for a B. And colleges may have their own equivalences that differ from the ACE recommendations, e.g. this chart from Excelsior College, which requires a higher score (55) for a B in American Lit, but on the other hand they will give you an A for a 59 in US History 1, while ACE says you need a 61 just for a B.

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Lee Binz (who runs a website/program for homeschooler transcript and college application help) touts her practice of marking a class honors based on a passing CLEP score. I can't remember how she determines a grade, but seem to be left with the impression that as long as they "pass" it, she gives an A.

 

(I do not endorse or recommend her, but many people love her and follow her advice.)

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RootAnn- thanks so much for this info. I had also read somewhere about labeling a course H if they passed their CLEP. I just am unsure how that would work grade -wise.

I will update by saying I had ordered the REA review books for USHistory and I have to say they have a ton of info in them and I can see why some people use variance of prepping for the CLEP as part of their coursework. I would think after reading through this book, one would have quite a bit of knowledge inn uSHistory without the time consuming "busy" work some USHistory courses have.

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Personally, I would not use a CLEP pass as an indicator of "Honors" level work, since it's possible to pass many of the CLEPs with only a few days of prep with the REA books and some flashcards — many people have done this. CLEPs are multiple choice, with no penalty for guessing, and you only need to get roughly half the questions right to "pass" (e.g., according to the REA books, 52 of 100 correct on the Bio exam = a scaled score of 50, which ACE considers a pass, and I have read that on some CLEPs you need as little as 45% correct to pass). There is a reason that many schools require higher scores for credit, and most top schools do not accept CLEP at all.

 

Taking a CLEP test after taking a genuine course in the subject makes sense if the colleges a student is looking at accept CLEPs, but IMO an Honors designation should be based on the quality of the course, not whether the student managed to answer (or guess) half the questions right on a multiple choice exam. And the idea of giving a student a final course grade of A based solely on an exam score that is barely worth a C seems absurd to me.

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Personally, I would not use a CLEP pass as an indicator of "Honors" level work, since it's possible to pass many of the CLEPs with only a few days of prep with the REA books and some flashcards — many people have done this. CLEPs are multiple choice, with no penalty for guessing, and you only need to get roughly half the questions right to "pass" (e.g., according to the REA books, 52 of 100 correct on the Bio exam = a scaled score of 50, which ACE considers a pass, and I have read that on some CLEPs you need as little as 45% correct to pass). There is a reason that many schools require higher scores for credit, and most top schools do not accept CLEP at all.

 

Taking a CLEP test after taking a genuine course in the subject makes sense if the colleges a student is looking at accept CLEPs, but IMO an Honors designation should be based on the quality of the course, not whether the student managed to answer (or guess) half the questions right on a multiple choice exam. And the idea of giving a student a final course grade of A based solely on an exam score that is barely worth a C seems absurd to me.

 

Most of the CLEP exams have between 70-80 questions. None of the ones my kids have taken have had 100 questions. (ETA: I am wrong.  Some of them have had more than 100 and some have less than 70 and a couple of them have had 100.)  FWIW, my kids have not found all of the tests that easy.  I had the same impression you posted above until I had kids start taking them.  Some are easier than others. 

Edited by 8FillTheHeart
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The four history exams have 120 questions each; Ed Psych, Soc, and American Gov't have 100 questions; Psych has 95; Micro/Macro each have 80; Chem has 75; PreCalc and Calc only have 48 and 44 respectively. I don't know about the foreign language exams, as the College Board doesn't list the number of questions for those.

 

From the discussions I've read on InstantCert/DegreeForum, people seem to have the most difficulty with Bio and Chem, followed by Western Civ I & II (although I think the latter is because few people study those areas in high school so they are basically starting from scratch having to memorize a ton of names and dates and details — less of an issue for WTMers I would think). At the other end of the spectrum, lots of people seem to pass the Soc & Psych exams with a week or two of watching Crash Course videos and memorizing InstantCert flashcards. As with APs, I think targeted prep, specific to the test, can definitely make a difference.

Edited by Corraleno
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My understanding is that some schools use sitting for the AP exam in May to impact a course grade, as a way to require the AP exam.  The AP exam scores themselves don't come back until after grades have been finalized for the year for the vast majority of schools.  Senior transcripts are due at most colleges before the AP exam scores are released.  I haven't heard of any schools where the AP exam score itself is reflected in the final course grade; I suppose it would be possible for a school to use the exam score for junior year grades, but I haven't read about it actually happening.

 

The senior I have been helping this year actually had his course grade increased by a full letter as a result of a "5" on the AP exam. I'm not sure if that practice is endorsed by the College Board though.

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The four history exams have 120 questions each; Ed Psych, Soc, and American Gov't have 100 questions; Psych has 95; Micro/Macro each have 80; Chem has 75; PreCalc and Calc only have 48 and 44 respectively. I don't know about the foreign language exams, as the College Board doesn't list the number of questions for those.

 

From the discussions I've read on InstantCert/DegreeForum, people seem to have the most difficulty with Bio and Chem, followed by Western Civ I & II (although I think the latter is because few people study those areas in high school so they are basically starting from scratch having to memorize a ton of names and dates and details — less of an issue for WTMers I would think). At the other end of the spectrum, lots of people seem to pass the Soc & Psych exams with a week or two of watching Crash Course videos and memorizing InstantCert flashcards. As with APs, I think targeted prep, specific to the test, can definitely make a difference.

I edited my response after I posted bc I asked Dd. She took 3 as a 9th grader last yr. She found both US history tests doable after her yr long course. They weren't hard, nor were they easy. She found the American Gov't exam difficult and that was after taking Thinkwell's AP course. (Granted her 12th grade sister didn't find it that difficult, so it could be a reflection of age and maturity vs. actual content. Some things my older Dd knew simply bc she was older and had been exposed to more politics.)

 

My 12th grader found the biology exam difficult after completing an AP equivalent course. She detested biology, so it wasn't a subject she enjoyed or wanted to take, but she had a high A in the course. Her experience with the bio CLEP, which was the lowest CLEP score she made, convinced my then 9th grader that she didn't want to take it. (She was scheduled to take while her sister was taking one of the Econ exams, but she backed out after Dd telling her how hard that one had been. They had taken all of the courses together and my 9th grader was weaker in the bio already.)

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RootAnn- thanks so much for this info. I had also read somewhere about labeling a course H if they passed their CLEP. I just am unsure how that would work grade -wise.

I did not mean for my post to be an endorsement of the practice, just as a contrast of what some parents do (and what an "expert" in homeschool college prep did).

 

Passing is indeed different than obtaining credit as credit depends on each college's policies.

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I edited my response after I posted bc I asked Dd. She took 3 as a 9th grader last yr. She found both US history tests doable after her yr long course. They weren't hard, nor were they easy. She found the American Gov't exam difficult and that was after taking Thinkwell's AP course. (Granted her 12th grade sister didn't find it that difficult, so it could be a reflection of age and maturity vs. actual content. Some things my older Dd knew simply bc she was older and had been exposed to more politics.)

 

My 12th grader found the biology exam difficult after completing an AP equivalent course. She detested biology, so it wasn't a subject she enjoyed or wanted to take, but she had a high A in the course. Her experience with the bio CLEP, which was the lowest CLEP score she made, convinced my then 9th grader that she didn't want to take it. (She was scheduled to take while her sister was taking one of the Econ exams, but she backed out after Dd telling her how hard that one had been. They had taken all of the courses together and my 9th grader was weaker in the bio already.)

I think the biggest issue with CLEPs is that the questions can seem really random and arbitrary, such that a student could ace an AP class but just pass the CLEP because the latter has a lot of questions on trivia that may not have been covered in an AP class. For the same reason, people who spend a few weeks memorizing the InstantCert Flashcards and studying the specific topics recommended by people who have recently taken the CLEP can do well, because it's more about cramming a huge volume of specific details and less about critical thinking and deep understanding of important issues.

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